roachboy

o for god's sake, this is just goofy.

the right has a problem with the present--in most ways, it is a disaster and they have no-one to blame but themselves for it--and they are worried about having to take the hit for this fiasco that is their policy record on the 7th.

enter john kerry.
what does he say....well in context it is pretty clear what he said. but hey, who cares about context? you can make anything mean anything if you strip out context, and from the op all the way down, you get repetitions of the conservative context-free misinterpretations of the remark.

"harumph harumph he is dissing our troops blah blah blah" as if THAT was the problem in iraq.
it is fucking ludicrous.

you gotta hand it to rove, though: this is an well played little pseudo-controversy. it is doing what it was set up to do.
it was convenient for him that the speaker was john kerry, wasnt it?
who could have been better?

have fun rerunning 2004 folks--the right is still heading at a high speed toward a very large wall on tuesday, and if you folks can find a little hiding place for a few days in this worthless pile of horseshit, well have fun there. we'll chat next wednesday about how big a deal this turns out to be. in the meantime, all i see in it is a curious reflection of the collective psychological state shared by conservatives who face a very bad outlook in the short-run indeed.

denial can be such fun, can't it?

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it make you sick.

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Superbelt

It's hard to defend Kerry. He has a muddled voting record throughout the Iraq War. And noone ever accused him of being a good public speaker.

But it's asinine to get on him for this. Derision should be reserved for the administration that fought so tenaciously to put thousands of americans in a poorly prepared and feebly outfitted war.

Bush, of anyone, shouldn't be saying someone else needs to apologize to our troops.

florida0214

You are very wrong. The Air Force for example will not accpet you if you do not have a high school diploma. Period. No waiver no excuses. You don't have a high school diploma from an attendance based high school that is also accredited, you cannot join.

Also the military cannot target any specific minority. The Military has specific targets for minorities and they aim to keep the same percentage of specific minorities in the military taht exist in the rest of the united states. They are actually graded on how well they can recruit minorities to maintain a balance in the Military.

People now a days are less patriotic and have very little respect for our country. No matter who is in office from this point on Americans will take it for granted that somebody else will go off and fight for the country. This is what it has come down to.

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Willravel

It never ceases to amaze me how little people know the military. In case you've been misinformed (obviously you have), high school drop outs can serve in the air force. All you need is 15 units at a JC that works on a semester system, or 23 credits at a JC that works on a quarter system. I have a good friend who's in the air force now, and going to be shipped out to Iraq in a few months, who never graduated or got an alternative (GED, etc.).

Why is it an anti-war peacenik like myself knows that, and yet conservatives that think they're supporting the troops don't?

Why would I want to respect someone who allows themselves to be a pawn with a gun? I don't understand where this "support our troops" thing came from...it must be left over from WWII. I support those who are willing to fight and die for freedom and liberty and peace and justice. That's not the military, at least any more. I feel badly that so many are in harms way, injured or killed, but either they are aware that what they are doing is wrong and are resoponsible for themselves, or they are unaware that what they are doing is wrong and are killing without thinking. Both of those options are pretty bad, and I refuse to "support" them in their actions. There are notable exceptions, of course:

-conscientous objectors
-deserters
-former military officers who work for peace

Paq

i still say

classic case of hearing whatever you want to hear from this

It is totally meaningless and another way for republicans to take the issue off how much they are totally screwing up

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ratbastid

I think it's probably from Vietnam. The way soldiers were treated when they came home from 'Nam was nothing short of disgraceful. The whole "support our troops" thing arose as a reaction to that.

The real tragedy, of course, is that as a nation, we learned the wrong lesson from Vietnam. And then that lesson got exploited for the pro-war agenda. Turns out that any criticism of the war now equals "dishonoring the troops". Which is ridiculous, of course, and an attempt to justify crushing free speech.

Ustwo

What was the right lesson from Vietnam?



From the Museum of American War Crimes in Ho Chi Minh City

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Willravel

That makes sense. If that's the case, then the current incarnation of "support our troopps" is overcompensation. It's wrong to treat the troops like garbage for no reason, but they are not above the law or above question. I like my free speech.

NCB

You know what would be interesting? To see the Kerry defenders here blast Trent Lott for his Strom Thurman joke.

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Ustwo

Oh and to throw more kindling onto the political bonfire.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Nat...y/cda06-09.cfm

Full report with graphs and all that crap

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Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

xxSquirtxx

I think Kerry needs to read this and choke on it.

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Willravel

I'm not a Kerry defender. I can't really stand the guy. He's weak. He bend when he should stand strong. He never should have supported anything Bush did, and while I admire his flip flop, it came too late. I am defending the idea that the military isn't all candy and rainbows. It isn't all heros doing the right thing every minute of every day. That's absurd. The military is a cross section of the US, and the US has a lot of idiots. It just so happens that the idiots in the military are trained killers and are sent on a whim to protect our oil interests or to frighten someone who won't accept our economic dominance.

xxSquirtxx

.............................

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florida0214

First of all I know exactly what I am talking about. not only am I in the Air Force, but I am Air Force recruiter. So to insult my intelligance is a stupid, stupid move. here are a few FACTS i found about the air force. Enjoy tearing these apart too. The fact of the matter is that everynody knows somebody who did something, but you never really have the whole story. I knwo somebody who once said they had gay sex with Kerry. They must be right.

· Nearly 80 percent of all Air Force enlistees scored in the top 50th percentile of the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB) test in fiscal year 2006, a number that has remained above 75 percent since FY 2000.



· Every single Air Force member enters the service with a high-school education or equivalent (GED or homeschooling).



· In fiscal year 2006, more than 15 percent of all enlistees entered the Air Force with more than a year of college credits – nearly a 30-percent increase from fiscal year 2001. Additionally, nearly 5 percent of all enlisted members possess a bachelor’s degree or above and another 16 percent have an associate’s degree. All officers have earned a minimum of a bachelor’s degree and nearly 50 percent possess a master’s degree or above.



· The #1 reason trainees cited for enlisting in the Air Force last year was to “continue college education on active duty.” For the past six years, education benefits have remained one of the top three reasons named for enlisting in the Air Force.



· The Air Force has exceptionally high-quality technical schools and training programs for its 142 career specialties. Upon enlistment, Airmen are automatically enrolled in the Community College of the Air Force – the largest accredited community college in the world – and they start to earn college credits toward an associate’s degree from the basic military training and technical school instruction they receive.

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Willravel

I've never made a stupid move in my life, and I never will.

I called 4 different local recruiters, 2 in San Jose, and 2 in San Francisco, and asked them each if high school drop outs can get into the Air Force. Their answer was the same: yes, as long as you go to a JC for a little bit. Either you're wrong, or they are all wrong. If you want to argue, call (408)251-0399 to reach an Air Force Recruiter for the Santa Clara County. I'm sure that infighting within the Air Force recruiters about your own rules will renew my confidence in you guys. Welcome to the catch-22. Either you're right, and 4 seperate military recruiters here lied to me, or you're wrong and I've won the day and get the girl.

The other things you posted are really meaningless as I didn't ask about test scores or technical schools or continuing education.

roachboy

forget it...this non-issue is not worth the commentary.
it is not worth anything at all.

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dc_dux

Unfortunately many people, and I include some who posted here, find It easier to believe the negative ads and the misleading characterizations by the talking heads, then to take the time to look at voting records.

The humor comes when they see the voting record, without the biased commentary, and STILL dont believe it and come back with another rationalization for not believing the facts.

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~ Voltaire

Willravel

I know you want to make sure people know this particular topic couldn't be less important, and I'm with you there, but you had this great post. I read it like 5 times.

Seaver

Sorry Wil, as someone who was just recently in the Navy I know the pre-reqs. You MUST have a highschool diploma or GED.

Just go to the Army's website, it's on there.

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Seaver

Sorry Wil, as someone who was just recently in the Navy I know the pre-reqs. You MUST have a highschool diploma or GED.

Just go to the Army's website, it's on there.

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Willravel

So then the Air Force recruiters lied to me? How charming. That makes me feel muuch better about the military. I'll go ahead and call some Army, Navy, and Marines recruiters, then.

Seaver

Sorry but recruiters are well known to pull crap out of their ass. They are not held liable for anything which is not written down. Look for what is written down and you'll see the requirements.

Just go to the recruitment websites and look at requirements, while they sometimes allow prior mistemeaners slip past, they don't allow the GED/Diploma slip.

They don't want stupid people fighting, regardless of how you feel.

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Willravel

It's interesting that I consistantly get the exact same answer from everyone but you and florida. I just called 2 Marines recruiters and 2 Army recruiters, and they are even less stringent than the Air Force. If you are a high school drop out, you are required to get 15 units of credit from a JC, then you may join the Marines or the Army. Why is it that I've called 8 different offices, and they all have the same answers? Do they get a list of lies? Or is it possible that the websites are putting garbage up about graduation in order to cover up the fact that they will recruit dropouts? Either way, it's pretty shameful.

As much as I hate to say it, I'm more likely to belive actual recruiters that I've spoken to on the phone lie to me with consequences instead of people on TFP who would gain by lying to me without consequences.

Rekna

I am not defending what Kerry said but here is what his speech was written to say:

So according to his staff he miss-spoke. Now he should have apologized immediately instead of being stubborn. Also the quote he was supposed to say isn't very tactful. I read it as "everyone who voted for bush is uneducated and lazy" where I think he might be trying to say "Bush is uneducated and lazy".

dc_dux

Is it any wonder that the Bush crowd would rather focus on an innocuous fucked up joke about Bush then to focus on the fucked up fact that there were more US casualties in Oct then in any month in the last two years, and according to the US Central Command, Iraq is "edging toward chaos"?



http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/01/wo...rssnyt&emc=rss

Come on now, are the silly pics and jokes about Kerry more important than this?

Of course its easier for Rumsfeld and Cheney to go on conservative talk radio and talk about "good progress in Iraq" and blame the media rather than their owned failed policies and strategies for the near chaos.

http://www.defenselink.mil/News/News...e.aspx?id=1993

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ratbastid

Agreed. This is a GOP distraction tactic. You can smell the desperation.

There is something to be said for the facts in the matter. Here's a report for the DOD on military demographics in 2002. Compared to the national average of 46.7% of civilians with a college degree, only 10.6% of Army, 6.4% of Navy, 1.9% of Marines, and 12.7% of Air Force have college degrees.

Having a college degree is obviously not a measure of raw intellect. Soldiers obviously have plenty of other things to do than sit in class and party on weekends. But the fact remains that the military population isn't as educated on the whole as the civilian population.

Ustwo

Ummmm try reading that report I linked 'buddy'.

The age you enter the armed forces is such that most do not have a degree. Every grunt I know got their degree after they left the armed forces, go figure eh?

Nice that you can find fault with the troops and the Republicans in the same post though.

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Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ratbastid

Hunh, so because I brought forth facts published by the DOD, I hate our troops?

This is what I meant earlier in this thread when I meant that the wrong lesson from Vietnam has been hijacked to suppress dissent against conservative policy. This is a PERFECT demonstration of that.

Did you miss the part of my post where I SAID that the military population is busy with something other than classes? Where I SAID that having a degree isn't a reflection on their intelligence? What I SAID (and what you QUOTED) is that the military population is less educated than the civilian population. I never implied that the post-military population stays less educated. I never said any of the straw men you put in my mouth. So keep your self-righteous flag-waving free-speech-stifling to yourself, please.

pig

I just want to confirm that Kerry isn't up for election this cycle, is he? I just checked his website and he doesn't seem to be. Obviously a stupid remark, I sincerely doubt that he would have a pre-prepared statement / speech where he said such a thing. Therefore, I find the "he snarfed up a bad joke" explanation more plausible. This was part of an actual speech, wasn't it? I mean, he wasn't answering questions or something where he might go off-script and say something stupid.

/so want to list a bunch of Bush-isms or put up the transcript with the "Where's the WMD? Ha Ha" thing. Won't do it. Must resist. Too much like the "but Clinton," and I don't even like John Kerry to boot. Just hate the self-righteous indignation. Must fight temptation.

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Seaver

Try reading how those numbers are established.

I guaran-fucking-tee you that 46.7% of people in America are NOT college educated.

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Ustwo

You know there is one real winner in all this.

Guess who?

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

pig

Nostrodamus?

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ASU2003

Yes, it was a bad quote. There are plenty of people in the military that could have gone to college or went to college. And even if you didn't go to college, it doesn't make you stupid or any less than anyone else. You probably learn more about the world and how it works by serving in the military.

I don't really think it would effect how I vote for any other democrats, because I vote for each individual (R, D, Libertarian & Green). But I won't be voting for Kerry in the future.

hiredgun

Again: debating the intelligence of the military is irrelevant here. That's not what Kerry actually said or meant.

silent_jay

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet or not, but what about Bush joking about his whole reason for the war in Iraq, those pesky WMD? We all remember that one where he was showing pictures of himself looking around the oval office and saying 'nope no WMD there'. In case you don't here's the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yJF13BS-hE

The president joking about not finding something he started a war over and troops are dying because of. Surely the people who are up in arms about Kerry joke were just as outraged when Bush was making these jokes. For some reason though, I doubt they were.

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magictoy

It's disappointing that others posted the picture from "Irak" before I could. The troops seem to resent Kerrr's statement, even if it's another Republican "plot" according to earlier posts.

It wasn't hard to see that Kerry was attempting a joke, but he's such an asshole that it's impossible to like him. The proper response would have been for him to say, "It was a joke that fell flat, and I apologize to the service members I inadvertently offended."

Instead, in the most pompous manner imaginable, he announced that "I apologize to NO ONE!"

Which is why Howard Dean and everyone else are distancing themselves from him.

You have verification for that statement, of course.

KungFuGuy

It'd be worthwhile if someone could tally up the number of stories about what jon kerry said versus the number of stories about something like... the Mark Foley's chasing congressional pages around.

on one hand...some guy can't tell a joke, and on the other... chasing young boys around... damn...which one deserves more media attention... so hard to say...

*note*- the same comparison could be made with any other issue as well.

The fact that this is getting so much press simply proves that the party in control is trying to divert public attention and awareness away from other more important issues.

magictoy

Yes, NBC, ABC, CBS, and CNN are bastions of conservatism.

Pardon me, but I distinctly remember your saying that your high school was full of wealthy kids. They would be the ones who can afford college, and enter the service as officers if they so desire.

Ahh, here it is:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...7&postcount=60

Sounds like the recruiters were crawling all over a high-income school. How could this be?

Documentation on what was withheld from the Senate?

The hatred of Bush that you evidence here, and elsewhere, appears irrational when you gloss over the fact that Democrats, including Kerry and Hillary Clinton, voted for the Iraq war. It appears more so when you try to convince us that information was withheld from those two.

Perhaps they didn't read what they were voting for. That would get them off the hook according to what filtherton said in another thread.

host

L. Brent Bozell III....is that you, with your "liberal media bias" bullshit ???
magictoy, how is it that "Air America" was bankrupted because it broadcast a "liberal message", no one wanted to pay to listen to.... yet you persist in believing the Brent Bozell/ mrc.org newsbusters.com bullshit that the "media is liberal".

Doesn't it ever dawn on you that "the media" is ratings...eyeballs...driven, and not "liberal agenda" driven? ABC is owned by Disney, NBC by GE, CNN by Time Warner....why would any of those companies approve a "liberal bias"?

Couldn't it be possible that you've been "influenced" by Brent Bozell, to shun all media reports that he and "outlets" like foxnews, haven't "filtered" for you, first? How far "down stream", from news feed, like AP and other original reporting from professional major media, news gathering outlets, is the stuff that influences you...when you first encounter it?

Do you ever cite anything from whitehouse.gov or from defenselink.mil , or does everything come through a "ditto heaf" leaning "filter", before you expose yourself to, it?

<b>What do you make of this...aren't "the generals", soldiers in the field?</b>
<b>So....wasn't Blitzer surprised that house majority leader John Boehner persisted in defending Rumsfeld at the expense of generals who gave advice, but were ignored, belittled, or sent into early retirement?</b>

Wouldn't Boehner's stupid comments be trumpeted by the "fairy tale" "liberal media", if it, indeed, existed?

How many members of US "liberal media", and members of al Qaeda "sleeper cells", located in the US, would fit on the head of a pin?

NCB

Another botched joke I'm sure.

Tell me, after a certain number of "botched jokes" and fott in mouth comments does one man need to make before he is considereda dumbfuck? A concerned, junior senator from MA wants to know

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