Graham crackers - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Carno · 08-15-2006, 08:50 AM

Man I had some sweet ass graham crackers for breakfast today. I prefer the cinnamon flavor ones, not really any of the other flavors. I looked at the box and realized how healthy and nutritious they are. What's yalls favorite brand to buy?

Here's some links about the origin of these tasty delights:
Sylvester Graham
Snopes article

Discuss.

Don't move this thread, I want the opinions of the people who frequent Politics, not those other people who visit the rest of the TFP.

EDIT: Snopes link fixed. Thanks to those who pointed it out.

pan6467 · 08-15-2006, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carno

Man I had some sweet ass graham crackers for breakfast today. I prefer the cinnamon flavor ones, not really any of the other flavors. I looked at the box and realized how healthy and nutritious they are. What's yalls favorite brand to buy?

Here's some links about the origin of these tasty delights:
Sylvester Graham
Snopes article

Discuss.

Don't move this thread, I want the opinions of the people who frequent Politics, not those other people who visit the rest of the TFP.

BTW Carno, great thread and idea.

Ah yes, graham crackers. I prefer the Honey Maid original flavor. They take me back to when I was a kid and my grandma and I used to make butter icing and put on them. And try as I may now, I just cannot find that same recipe and taste.... perhaps it was just the fact it was making something with my granny.

While I can see that many would say the original are just boring or pieces of cardboard with no true flavor, I just have to shake my head because to me the only graham crackers worth eating were the ones my granny and I made.

Of course after reading the articles on Rev. Graham and how he viewed mustard and ketchup as insanity inducing maybe that is what is wrong with me.... I eat wayyyyyyy too much ketchup, thus I must be insane.

sapiens · 08-15-2006, 09:53 AM

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...3&postcount=43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carno

Why have any separate forums at all then?

Hell, I think I'm going to post some porn in the Parenting forum because I want the people who frequent Parenting to talk about hardcore sex. Or maybe I'll post my personal problems in Politics. I hate going into Sexuality or Living, so I'm going to post my problems everywhere else.

Have you declared war on Tilted Politics?

I understand your frustration about political threads emerging in general discussion. My personal concern is that the negative attitudes and the ad hominem attacks often present in Tilted Politics might emerge there as well. However, general discussion is a general forum. So, it's not surprising that political topics will emerge there occasionally. Politics is a a specific forum. I do think that despite the negativity there are often valuable, interesting posts in Tilted Politics. I don't think that graham cracker discussions are appropriate in Tilted Politics. (I'm guessing that you don't either and you're just trying to make a point).

snowy · 08-15-2006, 09:59 AM

Eating graham crackers does not seem to help treat my fever of lust. I think it's terrifically funny that we have taken what was originally a health food and made it into a junk food. Dr. Graham would be horrified by S'mores.

That said, I like the cinnamon ones plain, but the originals when I'm making S'mores.

stevo · 08-15-2006, 10:21 AM

I don't eat many graham crackers. sounds like terist food to me. maybe the hezbos eat em.

I do like smores though. and golden grahams. mmmm.

roachboy · 08-15-2006, 10:38 AM

this is the best you could do, carno?
what a disappointment.

pan6467 · 08-15-2006, 11:00 AM

To Sapiens and RB.....

Why fucking post in here then?

I find what (I believe) Carno to be showing quite an interesting show.

All politics is is OPINION and how someone believes THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM.... it's based on experience and the facts as they percieve them.

And what Carno is asking is what is your opinion and why? Plain and simple.

Although maybe this does belong in the Paranoia thread..... I mean afterall Rev. Graham, creator of the Graham Cracker, was a Reverand... and perhaps graham crackers are a religious right plot. Therefore this can become a Right vs. Left issue.....

Hell yeah, we'll have a right/left argument over the graham cracker.

roachboy · 08-15-2006, 11:06 AM

actually, pan, all i see in it is some hamfisted undergraduate-level sarcasm--behind which i assume lay some disdain for the subject of politics in general and for the politics forum here in particular.
there is nothing interesting about it...and it is not smart enough to be provocative. it just is what it is.

i also was in on the chain of equally tedious interactions that resulted in this.
that is why i post here, pan.
and that is why i find it disappointing.
if you are going to say "fuck you" you have a choice: you can do it with some style or not. carno chose option b.

at least have some style, for gods sake.

Toaster126 · 08-15-2006, 11:20 AM

As a moderate, I enjoy both the cinnamon and the honey flavored ones and advocate an plan to eat both. I really wish more people stopped listening to the talking heads and tried both kinds.

pan6467 · 08-15-2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toaster126

As a moderate, I enjoy both the cinnamon and the honey flavored ones and advocate an plan to eat both. I really wish more people stopped listening to the talking heads and tried both kinds.

Now that's just silly talk right there. Obviously YOU have to like one better than the other but you are scared and too weak to admit which one you like best.

Therefore, you must not have a truly valid opinion, you don't know what you are talking about.

In the words of Fez on that 70's show "I say goodday"

Bill O'Rights · 08-15-2006, 11:33 AM

Y'know...I was going to close this thread early on because I saw it for what I felt was trolling. Carno knows what I'm talking about.

But then I thought better of it. I saw the humor in it, and left it alone.

Guys! Look at yourselves. Are we taking ourselves so seriously, that we can't take two seconds out to laugh at ourselves? For crying out loud...lighten up.

Jeez...the Carno's have already won.

stevo · 08-15-2006, 11:36 AM

Can someone tell me which ones are the right ones to like? I haven't received my talking points memo yet and without it I'm soooooooo lost.

analog · 08-15-2006, 06:54 PM

Since when is a protest via civil disobedience NOT a staple of politics?

He didn't post kiddie porn, he put a thread about Graham Crackers in Politics. That's not even really an offense.

He had a point to make. He's now making that point. This is hardly "rule-breaking", so try not crawling up his ass so much, hmm?

roachboy: chill out. If you spent as much time thinking as complaining, you'd have come up with a better retort than what you've posted, which is essentially, "this sucks". That's disappointing.

And I like the ones with the cinnamon and brown sugar on them.

Carno · 08-15-2006, 07:04 PM

Upon listening to all of your opinions, I have decided to change my stance and try the other flavors of graham crackers. Maybe my views aren't 100% right.

(As an interesting aside, not even a silly thread about graham crackers can go without being spoiled while in Politics.)

xepherys · 08-15-2006, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carno

(As an interesting aside, not even a silly thread about graham crackers can go without being spoiled while in Politics.)

QFT

I only like graham crackers if they are shaped like teddy bears. That way I can behead them swiftly and devour their crumbling corpses. Mmmmm, graham bear corpses.

ktspktsp · 08-15-2006, 07:13 PM

Carno, why is this so important to you?

pan6467 · 08-15-2006, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Can someone tell me which ones are the right ones to like? I haven't received my talking points memo yet and without it I'm soooooooo lost.

I suggest shooting a quick e-mail to Coulter, Limbaugh, O'Reilly and company, meanwhile, I'll shoot one over to my people and by mid-morning we'll have our stances.

Hold on..... this just in my mailbox.....

"While we here at Leftist Central believe that graham crackers serve a purpose to the people, we have to question the exact nature of said item. It isn't truly a cracker... nor is it a cookie. Based on being created by a Reverand, we have decided that the religious right must most definately be using them to brainwash people. Thus, untill we can investigate further, we will suggest refraining from the digestion of these items..... Sincerely, your friends in Leftist Central."

And this:

OOPs wait there's a commercial pop-up... how timely, a Nabisco Honey Maid Graham Cracker commercial.

"Friends, as you know I, the loveable El Rushbo, like my graham crackers with milk..... they are coming under fire now, by those atheistic, leftist radicals, who would have you believe that these crackers, and yes, they are crackers, are items from the religious right out to corrupt your kids into believing in God. I think we should all buy up as many boxes as we can and show these radicals a thing or 2...... btw I'm pleased to introduce my newest sponsor.... Nabisco's Honey Maid Graham Crackers...... Sincerely and Mega Dittoes.... and don't forget to resubscribe to 24/7 Rush..... this month's special only $24.95 but you get a box of tasty Nabisco Honey Maid Graham Crackers with a paid subscription."

snowy · 08-15-2006, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xepherys

QFT

I only like graham crackers if they are shaped like teddy bears. That way I can behead them swiftly and devour their crumbling corpses. Mmmmm, graham bear corpses.

I TOTALLY forgot about Teddy Grahams!!! I love all kinds of Teddy Grahams. They're actually a fairly healthful snack compared to some things. I used to substitute them for cookies...I should probably resume that habit.

Mmm, chocolate Teddy Grahams. I'm going camping this weekend--that's a good excuse to pick some up.

pan6467 · 08-15-2006, 09:47 PM

Teddy Grahams, wasn't he a GOP Senator from Texas.... sat next to LBJ and was in on the JFK Conspiracy with the LBJ, the Mafia and Bush family?

Even if he wasn't Teddy Grahams sound to right winged for me to enjoy.

Elphaba · 08-15-2006, 11:13 PM

Heh... this topic disappeared after two posts and arose again like a phoenix.

Y'all ain't talk'n about "crackers" are ya? It's jus some mo Yankie code fo po white trash innit!

I am sooo sincerely interested in this topic, because my darling granddaughter is a connoisseur of all that is graham. I'm sure I have at least a dozen pictures of her sampling that treat. I'll download those pics here and it will be obvious to all what the preferred graham cracker is among the precious.

The subjugation of the graham is just another example of the corruption instigated by the MAN! Rise Up! Save the Graham!

Yo, dude...crackers? Cool.

healer · 08-15-2006, 11:26 PM

We don't have Graham Crackers over here in SA, so if someone told me more about them, maybe I'll be able to decide which one I like better.

As an aside, why have I heard 'em pronounced 'Gram', instead of 'Gray-hum' ?

Cynthetiq · 08-15-2006, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

actually, pan, all i see in it is some hamfisted undergraduate-level sarcasm--behind which i assume lay some disdain for the subject of politics in general and for the politics forum here in particular.
there is nothing interesting about it...and it is not smart enough to be provocative. it just is what it is.

i also was in on the chain of equally tedious interactions that resulted in this.
that is why i post here, pan.
and that is why i find it disappointing.
if you are going to say "fuck you" you have a choice: you can do it with some style or not. carno chose option b.

at least have some style, for gods sake.

I agree with analog's observation.

Why don't we see what the professor can come up with then... put your money where your mouth is. If you think that you could do better, then by all means, please show us. If you can talk the talk, then please walk the walk.

As far as graham crackers are concerned. I mostly prefer the plain ones. The cinnamon ones are a nice change but do not go well with s'mores.

One trip to Iceland, we introduced s'mores as best as we could since they didn't have graham crackers there. Which reminds me, we'll have to bring some next time, along with Hershey bars to give the full American flavor chocolate.

host · 08-16-2006, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

I agree with analog's observation.

Why don't we see what the professor can come up with then... put your money where your mouth is. If you think that you could do better, then by all means, please show us. If you can talk the talk, then please walk the walk.....

Cynthetiq, on behalf of myself and others who object to your comments, above, and certainly to the following comments:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carno

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?p=2106581#post2106581
The reason I post that is because people hate the Politics forum so much that they post political threads in different forums, in the hopes that their thread won't turn to shit like so many of the threads in Politics. That says a lot about the Politics forum and the people who frequent it.

------------------

.....I'm gonna take your advice....and "walk the walk".....outta here. The endorsements that enable this thread to exist on this forum, telegraph a clear enough message.

uncle phil · 08-16-2006, 01:43 AM

these aren't bad, either...

pig · 08-16-2006, 02:15 AM

This thread can suck my balls!!! I got your cinnamon - I got your honeywheat!!!

ktspktsp · 08-16-2006, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

The endorsements that enable this thread to exist on this forum, telegraph a clear enough message.

Indeed, they do.

tecoyah · 08-16-2006, 04:44 AM

Wait......arent Graham Crackers a French Invention....I propose a name change.

pan6467 · 08-16-2006, 07:10 AM

Freedom Crackers?

As an aside, it is sad to see there are some that just can't allow a little humor in here. They have to post, because they have to post in every thread, but it is to complain that there is humor in here.

I guess I was there once.... humor in politics? Heavens forbid.

flstf · 08-16-2006, 07:47 AM

The Rev. Sylvester Graham developed the Graham Cracker to be the centerpiece of his diet to suppress unhealthy carnal urges. I see the debasement of this product by adding sexy ingredients like iceing and cinnamon as more of the leftwing's attempts to advance their secular agenda.

Quote:

The graham cracker was developed in nineteenth century America by Presbyterian minister Rev. Sylvester Graham.
His original "Graham bread" was the centerpiece of the diet he created to suppress what he considered unhealthy carnal urges, the source of many maladies according to Graham. He also warned that ketchup and mustard induced insanity. He gained many followers and even set up boardinghouses, where his diet was observed, in New York, Boston and other cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_cracker

ShaniFaye · 08-16-2006, 08:02 AM

Im sorry, there is only ONE link in here and there isnt a page long post telling me how the invention of the graham cracker was the precursor to weapons of mass destruction

I just cant make a decision based on a single wiki link...

I've been as derpived as a child given a (honey maid) cracker and no milk!!!!!!!!

powerclown · 08-16-2006, 08:15 AM

As far as any debate comparing, say, sugar cookies vs. graham crackers, I would step back and ask - a priori - that any tangential or otherwise discursive argument be framed so that the means to dissention not be obliterated.

In my travels, I have found sugar cookies to be superior to graham crackers. Ipso-facto generalizations notwithstanding, sugar cookies - having more butter content by weight than graham crackers - stomp those graham cracker fucker's asses all over town and back. It is patently obviously to anyone with a 6th grade education that sugar cookies don't have to resort to violence as a means of social change or implementation. Below is a very interesting and relevant article for making graham crackers, from a reliable media outlet, bakingsheet.blogspot.com.

Quote:

When Derrick announced the theme for this month's Sugar High Friday as molasses, I was stumped. What do you go with molasses? The things that immediately jumped to mind were ginger crinkles, ginger snaps and gingerbread - none of which fit terribly well with springtime snacking. Cakes and pies and puddings... molasses just seems to make everything heavy. Then I realised that molasses doesn't have to make things heavy. It is just often used as a sweetener in heavier things.

I've been wanting to try homemade graham crackers for some time now. I even went out and bought a cookbook, Retro Desserts by Wayne Harley Brachman, that I knew would have a recipe for it. Grahams use both honey and molasses, so the flavor of molasses isn't overwhelming. The cookies turned out to be amazingly crumbly and delicious. I didn't have 1/2 cup of graham or rye flour, as the recipe called for, so I just substituted whole wheat flour. This led the final product to have a texture strikingly similar to store-bought grahams, meaning that they were flakey and not dense. In fact, I was thrilled since a similar texture means that probably I made them correctly!

I whipped them up in the food processor in no time. The dough was incredibly easy to roll out and I'm sure it could be rerolled once to use up any scraps, though I just ate some raw and tossed the excess. The only change I would make to the recipe is to roll the crackers out thinner than the 1/4 inch called for. I aimed for 1/8 inch and they puffed up a tiny bit in the oven.

I would not hesitate to use this instead of graham cracker crumbs the next time I was in need of a pie crust.

I would say that these had a lot more flavor than store bought graham crackers and a slightly more rustic texture. They were more substantial and much tastier overall. I would make them again in a heartbeat.

I also discovered that they stay crispy when stored for several days in a airtight container, which is great because I can't imagine wanting to eat a mushy graham cracker!

The recipe was also used on an episode of Sweet Dreams. I've copied it below with my (minor) alterations, but the original can be found here.

Homemade Graham Crackers
1/2 cup all-purpose flour
1 3/4 cups whole-wheat flour
1/2 cup sugar
1 teaspoon baking powder
1/2 teaspoon baking soda
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/4 teaspoon ground cinnamon
1/2 cup cold butter, cut into 1/2 inch cubes
2 tablespoons honey
2 tablespoon molasses
1/4 cup cold water
1 teaspoon vanilla extract

In a food processor, mix together the flours, sugar, baking powder, baking soda, salt, and cinnamon. Add the cold butter and process until the mixture resembles coarse meal, about 30 seconds or so. Add the honey, molasses, water, and vanilla. Mix until the dough startes to come together in a ball, another 30 seconds. Scrape dough out of the mixer.

Between 2 sheets of waxed or parchment paper, roll the dough 1/8-inch thick. Chill for at least 1 hour, until firm (I chilled for several hours).
Preheat oven to 350F. Retrieve dough and roll it a bit more if it is not yet 1/8-inch thick. With a sharp knife or pizza cutter, cut into 2-inch squares. Arrange the crackers on parchment lined baking sheets. With a toothpick, prick several holes in each cracker.

Bake for 15 minutes, until lightly browned at the edges. Remove from the oven and let cool on the pan.

Yield: 48 crackers

Note: If you cut the dough through but leave the squares together, you can break them up after they're baked, just like a store-bought graham!

souce: http://bakingsheet.blogspot.com/2005...-crackers.html

Between montitoring my mailbox and surveiling my domicile, this ~~fascist~~ right-wing bushgovernment has gone too far with it's psy-ops campaign upon We the People! Look for Rove to psy-op-spin graham crackers to the sheeple as a safer and healthier alternative to sugar cookies, yet at the same time relentlessly pander to the Thai-dominated sugar lobby in Washington.

Quote:

Lobbying by Japanese irks industrialists

Free-trade negotiations between Thailand and Japan could collapse if Japanese negotiators continue to lobby Thai politicians instead of dealing with the country’s trade negotiators, business executives warn.
Bangkok Post

Lobbying by Japanese irks industrialists

Trade pact in danger if issues not faced

PHUSADEE ARUNMAS

5 April 2005

Free-trade negotiations between Thailand and Japan could collapse if Japanese negotiators continue to lobby Thai politicians instead of dealing with the country’s trade negotiators, business executives warn.

At the seventh round of the free trade area (FTA) talks at Khao Yai last week, the Japanese negotiators gave no response on the steel issues proposed by the Thai side, but bargained instead for other products, according to Pornsilp Patcharintanakul, chairman of the international trade committee of the Board of Trade.

Thailand has proposed to maintain a tariff of around 5% on Japanese hot-rolled steel for the first 10 years of the agreement, and to gradually reduce the rate to zero by the 15th year.

However, Commerce Minister Thanong Bidaya last week suggested that the country could make concessions on steel, given the importance of Japan’s auto industry to Thailand, a move that Thai trade negotiators said had undermined their bargaining authority.

Mr Pornsilp ??? -ed. said the Japanese side had also avoided discussions of Rules of Origin issues at the most recent meeting.

"This is tantamount to no progress, as the pact could not be put into real practice, despite the fact that tax issues were agreed on by the two sides," he said.

Korrakod Padungjit, a Board of Trade director who monitors FTA agreements, said the Rules of Origin issue should be settled before the tax issues, and the agreement should be flexible and not create new types of non-tariff barriers.

Rules of origin are important, he said, since imported raw materials account for 60% of the content of industries including steel, wheat flour, aluminium, chemicals, jewellery, canned tuna and furniture.

"We are afraid that Japan may lobby certain politicians instead of having direct talks with Thai FTA negotiators," he said. "The outcome of the lobbying would put Thai industries in serious jeopardy."

The Thai negotiating team is headed by Pisan Manawapat, the deputy permanent secretary for Foreign Affairs.

Thailand is seeking greater access in the Japanese market for agricultural products, while Japan wants greater market access and lower tariffs for a wide range of industrial products, particularly steel.

Mr Korrakod said that Mr Thanong, who is scheduled to visit Japan this coming weekend, had complicated matters with his comments about steel.

"We have asked for 10 years to improve our steel industries. But Japan wants immediate cut of steel import tariffs to zero, despite the fact that we have already cut tariff on certain steel products that could not be produced locally to 1%," said Mr Korrakod.

At the meeting last week, Japan has agreed to cut its current 6% tariff on Thai cooked chicken in half, increase annual tapioca starch quotas to 200,000 tonnes from 70,000, and end the current 9.6% tariff on canned tuna within five years.

Other concessions include an immediate elimination of tariffs on Thai fruit imports and an increase in molasses quotas to 4,000 tonnes in three years and 5,000 tonnes in the fourth year. Japan has also increased its banana quota to 3,000 tonnes in the first year, and 6,000 tonnes in the fifth year, while Thailand promised to exclude Japan’s sensitive items such as sugar, canned pineapple,and rice.

According to Mr Pornsilp, Tokyo’s agreement on certain Thai products might result in only an "insignificant" increase in Thai export values as those Thai products were already competitive in the Japanese market.

souce: http://www.bilaterals.org/article.php3?id_article=1590

Quote:

WORLD SUGAR SITUATION

World sugar production and trade in 1998/99 are each forecast to increase 3 percent, respectively, from the previous year’s levels. India and Brazil account for nearly 75 percent of the increase in production. Expected record exports from Brazil, South Africa, Australia, and Guatemala, as well as higher exports from Cuba, will more than offset expected lower shipments from the European Union and Thailand. World sugar consumption in 1998/99 is forecast at a record 127.5 million tons, up 2 percent from the previous year’s level. The demand for sugar is expected to remain strong in South America and Asia.
Summary

Production

The 1997/98 world sugar production estimate has been increased since December by 1.8 million metric tons to a record 124.1 million tons. Larger production estimates for China, India, EU, and Pakistan account for this increase. However, Cuba's and Thailand's sugar production estimates for 1997/98 were reduced by 900,000 and 380,000 tons respectively.

World centrifugal sugar production in 1998/99 is forecast at a record 128.0 million tons (raw value), up 3 percent from the revised 1997/98 output. Sugar produced from sugarcane is forecast at a record 90.8 million tons, up 5 percent from last season, and sugar processed from sugar beets is forecast at 37.2 million, down 1 percent from last season, and 9 percent less than the record 41.1 million tons produced in 1990/91. India accounts for more than 50 percent of the increase in world sugar production.

Trade

World sugar trade in 1998/99 is forecast at a record 36.6 million metric tons, 3 percent above the previous season's revised shipments. Record exports are forecast from Brazil, with that country accounting for more than 40 percent of the increase in world exports. Higher exports are also expected from South Africa, Cuba, Australia and Guatemala. Lower exports from Thailand and the EU are expected to partially offset the above export increases. Leading importers of sugar are expected to be the EU, the United States, and Russia.

Consumption

World sugar consumption in 1998/99 is forecast at a record 127.5 million tons, 2 percent above the previous year's level. The expected increase is based on likely strong demand in the largest consuming countries, including India, the United States, China, and Brazil.

Stocks

The world sugar ending stock estimate for 1997/98 was increased by 2.3 million tons to 25.8 million tons based on higher than expected production.

U.S. Raw Sugar Tariff Rate Quota
1997/98 Allocations
(Metric tons, Raw Value)

Country Quota Allocation
CURRENT ALLOCATION

Argentina 65,563
Australia 126,552
Barbados 7,830
Belize 16,772
Bolivia 12,198
Brazil 221,084
Colombia 36,593
Congo 7,258
Costa Rica 22,871
Cote d'Ivoire 7,258
Dominican Republic 268,350
Ecuador 16,772
El Salvador 39,643
Fiji 13,722
Gabon 7,258
Guatemala 73,186
Guyana 18,297
Haiti 7,258
Honduras 15,247
India 12,198
Jamaica 16,772
Madagascar 7,258
Malawi 15,247
Mauritius 18,297
Mexico (1) 25,000
Mozambique 19,821
Nicaragua 32,019
Panama 44,217
Papau New Guinea 7,258
Paraguay 7,258
Peru 62,513
Philippines 205,837
South Africa 35,069
Saint Kitts & Nevis 7,258
Swaziland 24,395
Taiwan 18,297
Thailand 21,346
Trinidad & Tobago 10,673
Uruguay 7,258
Zimbabwe 18,297
Total 1,600,000

Note: totals may not add due to rounding.

North America

United States

U.S. sugar production in 1998/99 is forecast at 7.2 million tons, an increase of 1 percent from last year's production. U.S. production of sugar processed from sugarbeets in 1998/99 is forecast at 3.9 million tons, up 3 percent from 1997, while sugar produced from sugarcane is projected at 3.3 million tons, down 1 percent.

U. S. sugar exports in 1998/99 are forecast at 136,000 tons, down 19 percent from the previous year's shipments. The U. S. ships mainly to Canada, Mexico, and Jamaica.

For fiscal year 1998, the United States allocated 1.6 million tons of sugar under the raw sugar tariff rate quota (TRQ) (see table on this page). Throughout the year, according to stocks-to-use ratio published in the WASDE, tranches of 200,000 tons were canceled or allocated. During FY 1998, the January tranche was canceled, while the March and May tranches were allocated.

Canada

Canadian sugar production in 1998/99 is forecast at 110,000 tons, up 16 percent from last year. Canada’s sole sugarbeet processing facility is being modernized and expanded, with the first phase to be completed in time for the 1998 harvest, and the second phase in 1999. In light of the additional capacity, Rogers Sugar is contracting with the Alberta Sugarbeet Growers for 16,923 hectares of sugarbeets in 1998/99. Completion of the plant expansion will enable Alberta sugarbeet area to rise to 20,250 hectares in 1999/00. In Ontario, Michigan Sugar has contracted with sugarbeet growers for 2,571 hectares of production.

Imports of raw sugar in 1998/99 are expected to approximate the previous year’s level. Most refined sugar imports enter Canada under a duty drawback arrangement that requires their subsequent re-export in the form of further processed products. With only minor production of sugarbeets and anti-dumping and countervailing duties limiting imports of refined sugar from the United States and the European Union, Canadian refined sugar demand is met largely through processing of imported raw sugar.

Canadian refined sugar exports go primarily to the United States. Pursuant to a September 1997 understanding between the two Governments, the United States has allocated to Canada a 10,300 ton share of the U.S. refined sugar tariff rate quota (TRQ) and a 59,250 ton share of the U.S. sugar containing products TRQ.

Mexico

Mexican sugar production for 1998/99 is forecast at 5.1 million tons, up 1 percent from the previous season. The projected increase is due to higher cane yields as harvested area is expected to remain the same as last season.

Imports for 1998/99 are expected to remain

unchanged at 80,000 tons. Industry sources indicate that imports are mainly a way for producers to recuperate from low priced export losses and keep sugar mills working. It is important to note that domestic prices are higher than prices for sugar on the international market.

Exports for 1998/99 are forecast at a record 950,000 tons, up 6 percent from the previous season’s shipments because of increased sugar production and almost flat domestic demand. Sugar exports to the United States under the U.S. quota for 1997/98 are expected to approximate 25,000 tons, including both raw and refined sugar. The Mexican sugar industry, however, is pressing the Mexican Government for greater access to the U.S. market, equivalent to the formerly relatively free access to the Mexican market for HFCS. However, the application of anti-dumping tariffs on imports of HFCS from the United States have nearly stopped imports of HFCS into Mexico.

Domestic consumption of sugar for 1998/99 is expected to remain unchanged at 4.24 million tons. Sugar consumption has not been growing due to competition from alternative imported and domestic sweeteners. The soft drink industry estimates its sugar needs for 1998 at about 1.2 to 1.4 million tons plus about 300,000 to 400,000 tons of HFCS. The soft drink industry first began to use HFCS in 1996.

Caribbean/Central/South America

Cuba

Cuba’s 1998/99 sugar production is forecast at 3.5 million tons, up 17 percent from the reduced 1997/98 output. Industry sources indicate that the 1997/98 season was plagued by weather, poor management, shortage of fertilizers and other inputs plus old, outdated factories that have severely hindered production.

Cuba’s sugar exports in 1998/99 are forecast

to increase 22 percent to 2.8 million tons based on the expected larger harvest. If these exports are realized, Cuba would be the world’s fourth largest sugar exporter in 1998/99.

Guatemala

Guatemala’s sugar production in 1998/99 is forecast at a record 1.89 million tons, up 10 percent from last year’s revised outturn of 1.72 million tons. This increase is attributed to a 5 percent increase in sugarcane area and higher sugar recovery rates.

Sugar exports in 1998/99 are forecast at a record 1.4 million tons, 4 percent above the previous season’s shipments. Domestic consumption is projected at 467,000 tons up 4 percent from the previous year. Per capita consumption of sugar is estimated at 40 kilograms. Alternative sweeteners and other alternative sugar products are not significant factors in domestic consumption. Currently the domestic market consumes an average of 26 percent of total production for industrial use and 74 percent for direct consumption. The soft drink industry is the major consumer of sugar, consuming 45,500 tons in 1997 out of the 68,000 tons consumed by the industrial sector. The remaining 22,500 tons were used in industries such as bakeries, juices, wineries, dairy products, and pharmaceuticals.

Brazil

Brazilian sugar production for 1998/99 is forecast at a record 16.3 million tons, 5 percent above the previous season’s output. The Center-South is expected to contribute 12.6 million tons to the total, with the remainder coming from the North-Northeast. The total amount of sugarcane for crushing in 1998/99 is forecast at 288 million tons, down 4 percent from last season. Sugarcane utilized for sugar production is forecast at 110 million tons, up 2 percent from 1997/98, while sugarcane utilized for alcohol is forecast at 178 million tons, down 7 percent from the previous season. In spite of the projected lower volume of total sugarcane for crushing, a shift in production from alcohol to sugar is expected to occur because of large alcohol stocks.

Brazilian sugar exports for 1998/99 are forecast at a record 7.1 million tons, 6 percent above 1997/98 shipments based on expected higher sugar production. However, sugar industry sources expect sugar export earnings to decrease despite an increase in the volume of exports due to likely lower prices. International sugar prices are expected to be lower because of expected larger world sugar production in 1998/99. The North-Northeast is a traditional raw sugar exporter. The Center-South and Center-West are expected to increase raw sugar production for export.

Ending sugar stocks for 1997/98 have been reduced by 15 percent, due to higher than expected sugar consumption and exports. Some stock re-building is likely in 1998/99 because of the expected larger Brazilian harvest.

The sugar-alcohol sector faces a critical problem regarding its capacity to store the excess alcohol production from the 1997/98 season. Estimates for the ending alcohol stocks vary from 1.2 to 1.8 billion liters. The Brazilian Government (GOB) has recently purchased 90 million liters of alcohol from the North-Northeast, without resolving the storage capacity issue. The sugar-alcohol producers are asking the GOB to purchase surplus alcohol production. However, even if the GOB purchases a part of the stocks, the storage problem will remain since the GOB does not have enough storage tanks to accommodate the high volume of alcohol. If alcohol stocks remain in the hands of the millers, they will likely have problems in storing alcohol produced in the upcoming season. The Sugar and Alcohol Millers Association of Sao Paulo State (UNICA) has advocated the export of surplus alcohol to the United States. Last February, UNICA officials made a presentation in which they proposed a partnership between Brazilian and American ethanol producers. The project proposes that Brazilian ethanol be marketed in current MTBE powered vehicle niches such as in California with a guarantee to supply these niches for a 2 year period. During this interim, American ethanol producers would expand production to meet American domestic ethanol demand, replacing the Brazilian product

European Union

Total sugar production in the European Union for 1998/99 is forecast at 18.3 million tons, 5 percent below last year’s revised outturn. The projected decline reflects reduced area and a return to average sugar yields. In the last half of 1997/98, several upward revisions were made in production due to higher yields resulting from excellent weather in a number of EU countries. The largest yield increases occurred in Finland, France, Italy, Belgium, and Denmark.

The basic tools of the EU’s sugar policy are: 1) import restrictions with limited free access for certain suppliers; 2)internal support prices that ensure returns to producers for a fixed quantity of production and permit maintenance of refining capacity; and 3) export subsidies for a quantity of domestically produced sugar. EU member states allocate an "A" and a "B" quota to each sugar-producing operation, each isoglucose operation and each inulin syrup-producing operation established in their territory. Current quota levels have been in place since the accession of Austria, Sweden, and Finland to the EU and are currently legislated at these levels until 2000/01. "C sugar", "C isoglucose", and "C inulin syrup" refer to any quantity of sugar, isoglucose or inulin syrup produced outside the sum of total A and B quotas. Policy makers are satisfied with the current sugar program, but EU industrial users of sugar favor sugar policy reform. The large gap between EU and world sugar prices, they say, is the result of rigid import quotas that prevent them from buying sugar at world prices.

Since July, 1995, a system of import duties increasing in line with the difference between the world import price and the trigger price have been in place. Import tariffs from January 1, 1998 to June 30, 1998 are 382 ECU/ton for raw sugar for refining and 472 ECU/ton for other raw sugar and refined sugar. "Preferential sugar" can be imported at zero duty. The total duty-free import quota is 1.3 million tons (white sugar equivalent). In addition to preferential and special preferential imports, the Commission also sets an annual tariff quota, called "MFN quota" for the supply of raw cane sugar to Community refineries.

Producer levies ensure that the EU sugar system is self-financing to a large extent. Community funding, however, is provided for

export subsidies for a quantity of sugar equal to the EU’s "preferential imports". Payments are made out of the Guarantee Section of the EU Agricultural Guidance and Guarantee Fund and amount to about ECU 600 million annually. Since 1995/96, subsidized exports of sugar to third countries are limited, in volume and in value, under the GATT commitments.

Human consumption of white sugar is estimated at 34 kg per person in 1997/98, virtually the same as the previous year. Contrary to other regions in the world, the EU domestic sugar market can be characterized as a saturated market. Exports from the EU in 1998/99 are forecast at 6.0 million tons, down 6 percent from last season based on lower supplies. Imports are forecast to remain unchanged at 1.8 million tons.

Eastern Europe/Former Soviet Union

Poland

Sugar production in Poland in 1998/99 is forecast at 1.9 million tons, down 16 percent from last year’s outturn. The reason for the decline is lower prices paid to farmers for sugarbeet production within quota and less favorable weather. Despite flood losses and reduced planted area, good growing conditions resulted in a relatively large 1997 beet crop with high sugar content.

Poland’s sugar exports in 1998/99 are forecast at 217,000 tons, less than half the volume exported in 1997/98. Poland is generally self-sufficient in sugar and usually has some exportable supplies. Imports occur occasionally, particularly during years of low production. Because of relatively high prices in the domestic market, relatively cheap sugar from Czech and Slovak Republics was imported in 1997 in fairly significant quantities.

Sugar consumption in Poland is estimated at approximately 41 kilograms per capita (raw value) in 1996/97. Sugar consumption has gradually increased over the past three years. However, direct sugar consumption has declined in recent years while, at the same time, industrial consumption has increased as production of products containing sugar has expanded. Total domestic consumption in 1997/98 is estimated at 1.82 million tons, 2 percent more than the previous year.

Russia

Sugar production in Russia in 1998/99 is forecast at 1.6 million tons, up 23 percent from the revised 1997/98 outturn, but down 6 percent from the 1996/97 output. The downward revision in the 1997/98 crop was a result of heavy rains which damaged the crop during the growing season and ultimately left almost a third of the crop in the field after harvest.

Russian sugar imports in 1998/99 are forecast at 3.7 million tons, up 14 percent from the previous year. To prevent over-imports, the Union of Russian Sugar Producers is lobbying the Government to limit sugar imports. The Agricultural Ministry is concerned that unregulated imports of raw sugar may exceed local refinery capacity since the Russian processing industry is able to process 3.5 million tons annually.

Retail sugar prices bottomed out in March 1997, just before the introduction of a 25 percent tariff on white sugar imported from some CIS members. Prior to this action, all CIS members, including the Ukraine, enjoyed duty free access to the Russian market for refined sugar. Soon after the installation of the 25 percent tariff, prices started increasing and reached their peak in September 1997, prior to when newly processed sugar appeared on the market. Russian sugar producers are concerned about refined sugar imports from the Ukraine because production costs in that country are significantly lower than in Russia. Industry officials believe that Russian sugar producers

can not compete with Ukrainian production. In 1998, Ukraine is expected to deliver 600,000 tons of sugar to Russia, under a zero duty quota. The imports must be of Ukrainian origin and produced from beets.

Domestic consumption of sugar for 1998/99 is forecast at 4.9 million tons, up 8 percent from the previous season. Annual per capita consumption was 32 kilos in 1997.

Ukraine

Sugar production in the Ukraine for 1998/99 is forecast at 2.4 million tons, up 16 percent from last year’s very poor output, the lowest in 40 years. Sugarbeet production fell to 17.7 million tons due to an unusually wet autumn, deteriorating farm machinery and other input constraints. The area planted to sugarbeets also continued to decline. The difference between the area planted and area harvested remained wide and has exceeded 100,000 hectares in recent years. This dilemma is attributed to on-farm losses stemming from a lack of farming input resources.

In an effort to protect the domestic sugar market the Government placed a 50 percent duty on all types of imported sugar. A recent proposal to cut the import duty to 15 percent is still being debated.

Sugar exports in 1998/99 are forecast at 800,000 tons, up 41 percent from the previous season’s shipments based on the expected larger harvest. Besides Russia, other destinations for Ukrainian sugar are Armenia, Azerbaijan, Republic of Georgia, and other central Asian countries. A proposal currently being discussed is lowering the sugar export price which would reduce sugar exports.

Sugar consumption continues to decline. However, should the price of sugar on the local market increase moderately, this could slow exports and mean that the 600,000 ton tax-free Russian quota may not be filled. This quota is

very important to the Ukraine because of the need to purchase Russian tax-free commodities such as fuel and timber.

The Government said that barter trading relations were the major reason for declines in the sugar industry. Because of a lack of funds, farmers were paid in sugar for sugarbeets delivered to processors. The Government attempted to get producer-processor relationships back on a monetary basis failed last year because of a lack of finances. Most likely the ban on barter trading will be lifted in 1998, resulting in farmer held sugar undercutting factory held sugar in the market place.

Africa

South Africa

Sugar production in South Africa in 1998/99 is forecast at a record 2.7 million tons, 5 percent above the previous record in 1997/98. The increase is attributed to above-average, but timely rainfall, and a 3 percent increase in harvested area.

Over the past season, growers have been faced with significant changes in legislation that affect much of their activities. Among these are, water rights, conditions of employment of farm workers, environmental issues, and land reform. The rewrite of the Sugar Industry Act in 1994 substantially reduced the legislation governing sugarcane production. The present A and B pool quota system terminates at the end of the current 1998 season and the industry will then operate under free market conditions.

South Africa’s 1998/99 sugar exports are forecast at a record 1.28 million tons, 10 percent above the previous season’s shipments. South African sugar exports made a dramatic recovery in the 1996/97 season as production recovered following four years of drought.

Asia

China

Chinese sugar production in 1998/99 is forecast at a record 8.8 million tons, more than 2 percent above the previous season’s outturn and 6 percent higher than the previous record of 8.3 million in 1992/93. The reason for the increase is due to an expected 3 percent increase in sugar produced from sugarcane. Although China produces both sugarcane and sugarbeets, sugar from sugarcane accounts for over 80 percent of total sugar output.

Chinese sugar exports in 1998/99 are forecast at 742,000 tons, 10 percent above the previous season’s shipments. To help the sugar industry recover from losses caused by low domestic prices during the past three years, and to stimulate increased production, the Government is expected to promote sugar exports while controlling sugar imports in 1998. Chinese imports are expected to decline in 1998/99 to 1.4 million, 8 percent less than the previous season.

Sugar consumption has grown rapidly in China since the 1980's, due to rising incomes and increased production of processed foods containing sugar. Per capita sugar consumption is estimated to have grown from 4.5 kg in 1980 to about 7.5 kg in 1997. However, increased production of alternative sweeteners in recent years has substituted for sugar. China produces 100,000 tons for chemical sweeteners each year and production continues to increase due to increasing demand from soft drink and confectionary industries. Since artificial sweeteners, especially saccharin, are much less expensive than sugar, these products are consumed by the majority of China’s 800 million farmers.

India

In India, sugar production for the 1998/99 season is forecast at 16.3 million tons, 15 percent above last season’s outturn, but 10 percent below the 18.2 million ton record set in 1995/96. The projected increase is due to higher sugarcane prices and prompt payment by mills to farmers during the current season. Various financial support programs provided sugar mills by the central and some state governments, combined with higher sugar prices during the later half of the 1996/97 season, helped to alleviate the financial situation of most sugar mills, enabling them to pay their sugarcane payment arrears to farmers before the 1997/98 season started.

Due to tight domestic supplies, the Government did not establish a sugar export quota for 1997/98. Exports in 1997/98 are likely to be confined to preferential quota countries, estimated at 50,000 tons. In 1996/97, the Government established an export quota of 1.0 million tons, but actual exports totaled only 740,000 tons, due to increased domestic demand. In the past, exports were subsidized when necessary by spreading losses among the mills. Following the liberalization of sugar exports in January 1997, exports by private mills were not viable without subsidies. Exports during the upcoming season will depend on the competitiveness of Indian sugar vis a vis sugar from other origins.

Sugar stocks held by mills at the beginning of March 1998 were 9.4 million tons compared to 10.0 million a year ago. Ending stocks in 1997/98 are estimated at 5.9 million tons, compared to 7.0 million in 1996/97. Despite the forecast increase in the sugar production in 1998/99, likely lower imports and continued growth in domestic consumption are expected to further reduce stocks. Sugar consumption has been growing at an average rate of 3-4 percent during the past few years, about twice the rate of population growth.

Pakistan

Sugar production in Pakistan in 1998/99 is forecast at 3.7 million tons, up 3 percent from the 1997/98 output, based on a 3 percent increase in planted area. Sugarcane, to be diverted for the manufacture of non-centrifugal sugar, is expected to remain at last year’s level as mill prices are expected to give farmers higher returns. Sugarcane area in 1997/98 was up 18 percent compared to the previous year, because of improved producer returns and a 46 percent increase in the sugarcane support price.

Sugar exports in 1998/99 are forecast at 600,000 tons, 12 percent above the previous season. This forecast is based on increased sugar production and more favorable

international prices. Pakistan has been requested by the United Nations to supply of 300,000 tons of sugar to Iraq. The Government is considering various options to fulfill this request. The Pakistan Sugar Mills Association has asked the Government to allow the export of sugar to Central Asian States by road through Afghanistan.

Consumption of centrifugal sugar during 1998/99 is forecast to increase 3 percent to 3.2 million tons. This increase is based on a 3 percent rise in the population, estimated at 149.94 million, including the population of the Northern Areas, Azad Kashmir and Afghan refugees.

Thailand

Thailand’s sugar production for 1998/99 is forecast at 4.2 million tons, virtually the same as in the previous season’s output, but 32 percent less than the 6.2 million ton outturn in 1995/96. Thailand’s 1998/99 sugarcane output is projected at 42 million tons, about the same as the revised 1997/98 estimate. The weather has been very dry since the 1997 monsoon season ended in October and very little rain has been reported in the first quarter of 1998. As a result, the ratoon and new planting of sugarcane on unirrigated land will likely be affected, reducing sugarcane yields.

Exports in 1998/99 are forecast at 2.6 million tons, down 16 percent from last year due to reduced supplies. Sugar is one of Thailand’s major export products. Quota C (export) sales are concluded 6 months prior to the crushing season in November by seven exporting companies. The Thai Cane and Sugar Corporation is designed to handle long-term contracts and is responsible for pricing and selling the 800,000 ton of raw sugar under quota B. More than 50 percent of 1997/98 quota B, sugar has already been sold at an average price of 12.48 cents per pound.

Domestic consumption of sugar is projected to increase by 3 percent in 1998/99. Industrial consumption is currently about 30 percent of utilization. Per capita consumption increased 5 percent, from 26.3 kilograms in 1996 to 27.5 kilograms in 1997. Sugar consumption increased in line with the expansion of pharmaceutical products and the food and bakery industries. About 70 percent of local consumption is in the form of direct household consumption, 10 percent by the beverage industry, 6 percent for dairy products, 4 percent for food and fruit products, and the remainder used in other forms. Stocks are expected to decrease significantly in 1998/98 and 1998/99 due to expected higher exports and domestic consumption.

The use of high fructose syrup (HFS) continues to expand. The current sole factory producing HFS in Thailand expects production capacity to reach 200 tons per day in 1998/99. Output of HFS is estimated at 54,000 tons in 1997 and is forecast at 55,000 tons in 1998.

Australia

Sugar production in Australia in 1998/99 is forecast at a record 5.97 million tons, slightly above the 1997/98 output. The Australian sugar industry is currently in an expansionary phase, with land assigned to sugarcane area growing significantly and new growers entering the industry. The Australian sugar refining industry is also undergoing a period of change as a number of joint ventures have resulted in increased refining capacity.

Australian sugar exports are forecast at a record 4.9 million tons in 1998/99, 4 percent above 1997/98 shipments. Canada is Australia’s’s largest sugar customer, while the Korean Republic displaced Japan as the second largest export market.

The rapid growth in sugar consumption in Asia has prompted the Australian sugar industry to move its focus to that region. Asia accounted for around two thirds of the industry’s exports in 1995/96 and 1996/97, compared to just over 30 percent in the 1970's. The current Asian economic crisis, though, may make it more difficult to export to Asia. The Australian industry is, nevertheless, confident that although sales may slow, it’s traditional customers are expected to have demand for sugar that approximates the previous year’s imports.

source: http://www.fas.usda.gov/htp2/sugar/1.../worldsit.html

Now we see a recipe, from an untouchable source, for the "best ever sugar cookies." Well worth the read.

Quote:

BEST EVER SUGAR COOKIES
1 1/2 c. sifted confectioners' sugar
1 c. butter
1 egg
1 tsp. vanilla
1/2 tsp. almond flavoring
2 1/2 c. flour
1 tsp. soda
1 tsp. cream of tartar

Cream butter and sugar, stir in eggs and flavoring. Stir together dry ingredients - add to butter mixture, blend thoroughly. Refrigerate 2 to 3 hours.

Bake at 375 degrees cutting out in holiday shapes until golden brown. Decorate.

Another very worthwhile sugar cookie recipe, in french. This time with chocolate added. Is there no place for dissent in the culinary arts???

Quote:

Les meilleurs biscuits au chocolat

J'ai essayé toutes sortes de recettes de biscuits au chocolat. Certaines contiennent énormément de sucre (jusqu'à une tasse, en plus du chocolat). Pour quelqu'un qui souhaite faire plus attention à son alimentation, ce n'est pas l'idéal...

De plus, j'ai toujours du mal à garder mes biscuits maison pendant un moment... Ils deviennent secs rapidement et moi, je préfère les biscuits tendres... De plus, ma recette se congèle aisément, si bien que j'en fais toujours plus et que je les garde au congélateur... Je les dégèle à mesure.

Lorsque j'ai pris mon premier appartement, il y a quelques années, les livres de recettes ont atterris chez moi en quantités astronomiques. Donné, prêtés (et jamais rendus), trouvé, acheté, etc... J'ai des recettes de tous les genres, en plus d'une tonne de livres dont je ne me servirai jamais...

Il y a quelques mois, j'ai réellement commencé à cuisiner. On a mangé brésilien, italien, mexicain, etc, etc. Dans un des livres de cuisine qui a aterri chez moi, j'ai trouvé cette recette de biscuits. On dirait de vrais petits gâteaux, qui contiennent moins de sucre et de gras (remplacé par du yogourt nature).

La recette provient donc du livre Les 250 meilleures recettes de Weight Watchers paru aux éditions de l'Homme. Étonnament, c'est la meilleure recette de biscuits que j'ai trouvé! Je l'ai modifiée légèrement. J'ai donc décidé de la partager avec vous, surtout que je l'ai promis à Ophélie!

Biscuits aux grains de chocolat - donne 24 biscuits (ça m'en donne toujours plus...)

500 ml (2 tasses) de farine tout usage
50 ml (1/4 tasse) de poudre de cacao
5 ml (1 c. à thé) de bicarbonate de soude
1 ml (1/4 c. à thé) de sel
125 ml (1/2 tasse) de cassonade bien tassée
50 ml (1/4 tasse) de margarine dure sans sel
2 oeufs
175 ml (3/4 tasse) de yogourt nature sans matières grasses
5 ml (1 c. à thé) d'extrait de vanille
250 ml (1 tasse) de grains de chocolat mi-sucré

1. Préchauffer le four à 190°c (375°F)

2. Dans un bol moyen, mélanger la farine, le cacao, le bicarbonate de soude et le sel.

3. Dans un grand bol, avec le batteur à main à vitesse élevée, battre la cassonade, la margarine et les oeufs jusqu'à consistance légère et mousseuse. Avec le batteur à main à faible vitesse, incorporer doucement les ingrédients secs, le yogourt, la vanille et les grains de chocolat. Mélanger juste assez pour obtenir une pâte homogène (ne pas trop mélanger).

4. Faire 24 biscuits (ou plus!) en versant la pâte avec une cuiller à soupe (moi j'utilise deux cuillers, une pour prendre le mélange, l'autre pour râcler) sur 2 plaques à biscuits non graissées. Cuire sur la grille centrale du four, environ 8 à 10 minutes, jusqu'à ce que les biscuits soient fermes. Laisser refroidir complètement.

Bon appétit!

source: http://lemondedallie.canalblog.com/a...13/434891.html

Sugar Cookie, wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_cookie
Graham Cracker, wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_cracker

Thai Sugar Lobby: http://www.thedailystar.net/2005/07/13/d50713050951.htm
Israeli Sugar Lobby: http://www.danieldrezner.com/mt/mt-c...?entry_id=2642

Brazilian sugar lobbies are in on it as well. As far as I'm concerned, there should be no shortage of individual skeptisism and verbal diahhreah from the one country supposedly regarded as the "most obese nation in the world".

Quote:

Sugar Quotas
An ec 10 student emails to ask for some information about U.S. sugar quotas. I am not an expert on the subject, but here is what I know.

Most economists view U.S. policies toward sugar as a deplorable departure from the principles of free trade. About a year ago, The Economist magazine summed up the situation as follows:

Outrageous import quotas keep the domestic price of sugar at double that of the world price. CAFTA [the Central America Free Trade Agreement] would allow more imports in from Central American countries, but still less than 2% of US sugar production. For the sugar lobby—and the 15 or so Republican politicians who follow its bidding—that is still too much.
See also George Will's old column on the topic and this Reuters article on the current situation.

The economics here is straightforward. It is a standard case of protectionism for the benefit of politically powerful domestic producers (including the producers of sugar substitutes, such as corn syrup). The losers are American consumers and farmers in developing nations.

One interesting wrinkle is that sugar is used to make ethanol. If the United States had truly free trade, we would be enjoying not only cheaper soft drinks but also cheaper fuel, as Harvard historian Niall Ferguson (alternate link) pointed out in yesterday's LA Times. In a column called "Put some sugar in your tank," he writes:
Unnoticed in the northern hemisphere, one country is pioneering a transportation revolution by switching from petrol to ethanol. That country is Brazil.

What's preventing the northern hemisphere from following Brazil's lead? The answer is not so much Big Oil -- though American oil companies have fought tooth and nail against the introduction of ethanol, even as a fuel additive -- as Small Agriculture. To protect northern farmers, huge tariffs are currently imposed on imports of Brazilian-produced ethanol by both the United States and the European Union.

Graham crackers, being founded by a religious person, need to be banned outright by judicial legislation. If not, then the repsonsibility lies soley with We, the People to change the course of history this accursed nation is heading. No more psy-ops, no more fox news rhetoric, no more rovespeak! I'm fucking sick of this partisan shit! We need to join together TODAY to end this motherfucking bullshit!

Quote:

http://news.neilrogers.com/news/arti...006081211.html

Why Al Qaeda loves the Graham Crackers
by Evan Derkacz
Link to Article

The Republicans are trotting out the same old canard from '04 when Cheney claimed that a vote for Kerry would be a vote for another 9/11: "It's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today, on November 2nd, that we make the right choice, because if we make the wrong choice then the danger is that we'll get hit again."

This time, both Cheney and Snow are turning reality into a pretzel by claiming that the antiwar Ned Lamont is encouraging Al Qaeda by advocating for the removal of Al Qaeda's greatest recruiting commercial ever: American troops in Iraq.

Well, two HUGE, though relatively unknown pieces of information from Ron Suskind's One Percent Doctrine put that lie to that thinking.

First, back in 2003, the CIA and NSA learned something interesting which Suskind characterized as "another growing consensus" and " a conclusion that was the last thing anyone in the White House wanted publicized": That Al Qaeda might not even want to attack the U.S. With 9/11 their work was essentially done. They provoked the sleeping bear into a clumsy and stupid quagmire. They'd set the ball rolling and set themselves to assisting the big bear in hastening its own demise.
The second, that Bin Laden helped Bush's reelection. CIA concluded immediately after bin Laden's pre-election message that it was designed to help Bush. According to Suskind, CIA's John McLaughlin immediately concluded that "bin Laden certainly did Bush a big favor today." Watch Suskind lay it out in the clip... (transcript below the fold)

BLITZER: Let's talk about the CIA conclusion that you report that Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda, wanted President Bush re-elected in 2004. You write this: "What the CIA had learned over nearly a decade is that bin Laden speaks only for strategic reasons and those reasons are debated with often startling depths inside the organization's leadership. Today's conclusion: bin Laden's message was clearly designed to assist the president's re-election."

Why would Osama bin Laden want President Bush re-elected?

SUSKIND: The debate in the CIA on that Friday and through the weekend right before the election is one that essentially points out these -- these factors. Often leaders, for instance, the Soviets, liked Nixon. They liked his predictability. They knew their opponent.

In other cases it was bin Laden and Bush are kind of a match set. Bush has provided an enormous value in terms of recruitment in the Arab world. Bin Laden essentially is in a pitched dialogue -- in history in years later, we'll look back on this, Wolf, and say essentially it's these two characters...

BLITZER: You're saying the CIA formally concluded that bin Laden wanted Bush re-elected. SUSKIND: Well, look -- absolutely true. And that day at the meeting John McLaughlin says, well, you know, bin Laden certainly did Bush a big favor today. And the analysis flowed essentially along those lines.

In closing, I just want to say "psy-ops" one last time.

PSY-OPS.

roachboy · 08-16-2006, 08:21 AM

so let's think for a moment, shall we?
let's assume for a moment that this cretin thread is worth taking seriously.

at this point, thinking about this thread means that we have to consider what analog and cyn imagine themselves to be doing by legitimating it--analog by turning it into some act of civil disobedience (which is really pretty funny--it is the only laugh i have had from the thread so far)--and cyn by trying to "call me out" to "walk the walk"--cliches that really have no meaning in a thread such as this one----and which are close to insulting in that they imply that there has been nothing interesting from me in politics up to now.
but whatever, i expect little from someone whose primary complaint in politics up to now is that he had to read too much when host posts.

it is tedious to speculate about such matters, but i noticed that yesterday this thread disappeared for a while--i assume there was some discussion about how to deal with it, and that the two mod posts above indicate something like a decision has been taken and that both posts above are mod posts, not posts made by the individuals concerning their own views who happen also to be mods.

but perhaps analog and cyn would care to confirm this before we keep going?
maybe not--it is not that important to me.
none of this is that important to me.

carno has a series of associations with politics that he has presented, in various forms that others would have been challenged for having done--in gd discussions, in the "what happened to tfp" thread etc. those associations are close to the complaints i have seen from analog in the past, and presumably they correspond to cyn's views as well. they have nothing really to do with how things have been happening in politics over the past months, during which the character of discussion here has changed for the better--but attitudes are funny and seem to require no real-time data. apparently there are some who think that this should be true in all arenas. that politics should be a matter of attitude or a priori opinion and that information is secondary at best--so that it is an imposition when information is posted because the expectation is generated that you shoudl read it, which is a second imposition. debates then happen around that information--a third imposition. and so it goes.

carno's basic complaint was that political threads were being posted in other forums. i pointed out to him that this was no big deal in itself and was probably a good thing in that folk who did not generally participate inthis forum were able to address questions in other places. in response, this thread.

let's consider the logic, such as it is, that can be derived from the content of carno's snippy post--which would have been censured had it originated from other members---for example, if i had done something like this, i doubt seriously that either cyn or analog would have defended it.
but i assume that there is a 3-d friendship between him and analog and cyn such that what he does here is not required to conform to the same rules as are binding on everyone else, and now both cyn and analog have made carno's special status official.
so there are two sets of rules now.
this is a new development.

the logic of carno's snippy semi-literate op is not only that carno does not like politics, but further that he sees in politics something of a debased form of consumer activity. like which snack food to eat. what is there to say about this notion that politics is a variant of consumerism?
that you can buy shit=that you are free?
that you can "think" about commodities=that you can think about politics?

please explain what is now going on in this thread.
is this a mod "message" that folk who do not think that politics is a consumer question are not welcome here?
or is the "message" that the level of discourse should be ratcheted down?
or is the "message" that what i mentioned in the "what happened" thread--that the implication of much of what was being said about politics is that there is space for everyone except people like me here, now being made into an official position?

i await your response.

Elphaba · 08-16-2006, 08:35 AM

Oh yawn...there he goes again. Everyone knows graham crackers are superior.

pan6467 · 08-16-2006, 08:40 AM

Power, while all that research is good and very informative it obviously is biased. You could not have found all those links on your own, so you must have talking pointers being sent to you.

I know who it is to, The Ghoul. That menace to society that promotes scratching glass, turning blue and staying sick.

Well, I have Froggy and some boom-booms and we're working on totally showing your research is so biased and outdated it is laughable.

All I can say is the denizens of Amrap shall rise up and their voices shall be heard...... Graham Crackers over those sugar cookies.....

Froggy plunk your magic twanger.
=============================================================

Quote:

please explain what is now going on in this thread.
is this a mod "message" that folk who do not think that politics is a consumer question are not welcome here?
or is the "message" that the level of discourse should be ratcheted down?
or is the "message" that what i mentioned in the "what happened" thread--that the implication of much of what was being said about politics is that there is space for everyone except people like me here, now being made into an official position?

Roach don't you think you are over analyzing and taking this far more seriously than you have to.

For the love of God man, it's 1 fucking thread, and people are having fun.

It's not about you, so drop the ego bit and the "this is a swipe at me" bitching and have some fun.

Post real threads... ignore this one..... whatever.

Why does this have to be saying

Quote:

"that the implication of much of what was being said about politics is that there is space for everyone except people like me here, now being made into an official position?"

When in reality it may just be saying let there be room for EVERYONE.... and if you don't like a thread.... and can't ad positively to it..... move the fuck on and get over yourself.

(Aside)That's all well and good Roach.... But when did the Politics Board become the elitist only playground?

Why do you have to post in here? You don't have to.

Seems a lot of people are having a little bit of fun and just harmlessly satirizing the board a bit.

For the love of Graham Crackers, can't you just let loose and have a little fun without bitching and moaning that there is a thread in here you for whatever reason can't get into?

If not then walk away and let others have their fun.

I think Carno has proven a point there are some in here that are not happy unless they have a fight and can CONTROL the thread with their views.

A harmless experiment has turned into some people getting all upset and instead of ignoring it.... they have to post how ridiculous they find this.

AHEM....... Freedom of speech, the boards are for ALL members and if you truly don't like it, nor allow yourself to just have a break and have some fun in here.... then walk away man and don't post in here.

Why must you try to ruin everyone else's fun?

OOO yeah again..... fun and humor in politics.... Heavens forbid the country is falling apart and people want to release stress and have a little fun, prove a point and just ruin what "we, elitists" have created here.

PS Is the thread in here truly hurting ANYTHING or ANYONE???? It's actually the most fun and relaxed I have been in politics for sometime. Keyword=fun

Elphaba · 08-16-2006, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Froggy plunk your magic twanger.

I haven't heard that in years.

(Isn't this about the time that we go off on a pointless threadjack?)

Speaking of froggies.....

roachboy · 08-16-2006, 09:01 AM

"elitist".....

huh.

interesting.

ShaniFaye · 08-16-2006, 09:03 AM

did I miss anyone bringing up the fact that graham crackers arent even made with graham flour anymore?

my favorite pie crusts are GC crusts, much better and tastier than flour ones

pig · 08-16-2006, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

As far as any debate comparing, say, sugar cookies vs. graham crackers....PSY-OPS.

Gee, I didn't see that post coming

This is just typical moonbat socialist programming. The sugar is in the cookies, the cookies make you fat, Thai people like peanut butter, Karl Rove went to Thailand... Oh noes!1! It must be Bush's fault.

pan6467 · 08-16-2006, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

did I miss anyone bringing up the fact that graham crackers arent even made with graham flour anymore?

my favorite pie crusts are GC crusts, much better and tastier than flour ones

No but now that you mention it..... that is bizarre..... hmmmm it's a conspiracy to destroy the Amish. They grow a lot of Graham that once was used for those crackers and now big Wheat must destroy the working Amish....

This is far deeper than just the Religious Right/Ghoul/Anti-Froggy campaign..... there is fowl play going on now.

(for those without a sense of humor... foul was purposely mispelled)

Supple Cow · 08-16-2006, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

please explain what is now going on in this thread.
is this a mod "message" that folk who do not think that politics is a consumer question are not welcome here?
or is the "message" that the level of discourse should be ratcheted down?
or is the "message" that what i mentioned in the "what happened" thread--that the implication of much of what was being said about politics is that there is space for everyone except people like me here, now being made into an official position?

i await your response.

(emphasis mine)

Well, I'm not a mod, but I know what I meant when I said the things I did in the "What Happened to TFP?" thread. I suggested that the regulars in here try and leave a little more room for other modes of discourse. Your last two examples of possible messages from the mods exemplify the problematic aspects of Politics - the reason why so many others find it hostile in here. You set it up as if there can only be two choices: you have to either lower yourself to our disdainful mediocrity (we who find it a little intimidating to know that any response we get from a post in here will be a somewhat harsh response, whether in agreement or otherwise), or this space is officially not for roachboy (...because he is too special by refusing to lower himself here by treating the others who may be interested in posting here for the first time as people who perhaps could know better instead of as people who SHOULD know better?). If the speculation in my last parenthesis is inaccurate, I really hope you will help me to understand better. So far, all I have heard from you is a lot of bristling at the mention of letting people who may not be as good at defending their positions to participate enough to grow a little; and then, almost in alternating sentences, painting the picture of an unwelcome roachboy if that must be the case.

I am telling you that I don't see why it is so hard to let some people make a few more ill-supported posts in here to get their bearings or just to express something about which they KNOW (i.e. ngdawg and NJ) without getting a new asshole ripped by the whole Politics circus? I am not saying that you, roachboy alone, are the entire Politics circus and that you, roachboy alone, make this environment hostile. Please do not take it that way. I am asking you to tell me why it has to be mutually exlusive that Politics have space for the current regulars (or simply yourself, if you prefer that question) and newcomers who don't know about or have some trouble adhering strictly to the rules on their first few go-arounds?

08-15-2006, 08:50 AM	#1 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	Graham crackers Man I had some sweet ass graham crackers for breakfast today. I prefer the cinnamon flavor ones, not really any of the other flavors. I looked at the box and realized how healthy and nutritious they are. What's yalls favorite brand to buy? Here's some links about the origin of these tasty delights: Sylvester Graham Snopes article Discuss. Don't move this thread, I want the opinions of the people who frequent Politics, not those other people who visit the rest of the TFP. EDIT: Snopes link fixed. Thanks to those who pointed it out. __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/ Last edited by Carno; 08-16-2006 at 10:17 AM..

08-15-2006, 09:59 AM	#4 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	Eating graham crackers does not seem to help treat my fever of lust. I think it's terrifically funny that we have taken what was originally a health food and made it into a junk food. Dr. Graham would be horrified by S'mores. That said, I like the cinnamon ones plain, but the originals when I'm making S'mores. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

08-15-2006, 10:21 AM	#5 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	I don't eat many graham crackers. sounds like terist food to me. maybe the hezbos eat em. I do like smores though. and golden grahams. mmmm. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

08-15-2006, 10:38 AM	#6 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	this is the best you could do, carno? what a disappointment. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-15-2006, 11:00 AM	#7 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	To Sapiens and RB..... Why fucking post in here then? I find what (I believe) Carno to be showing quite an interesting show. All politics is is OPINION and how someone believes THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM.... it's based on experience and the facts as they percieve them. And what Carno is asking is what is your opinion and why? Plain and simple. Although maybe this does belong in the Paranoia thread..... I mean afterall Rev. Graham, creator of the Graham Cracker, was a Reverand... and perhaps graham crackers are a religious right plot. Therefore this can become a Right vs. Left issue..... Hell yeah, we'll have a right/left argument over the graham cracker. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

08-15-2006, 11:06 AM	#8 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	actually, pan, all i see in it is some hamfisted undergraduate-level sarcasm--behind which i assume lay some disdain for the subject of politics in general and for the politics forum here in particular. there is nothing interesting about it...and it is not smart enough to be provocative. it just is what it is. i also was in on the chain of equally tedious interactions that resulted in this. that is why i post here, pan. and that is why i find it disappointing. if you are going to say "fuck you" you have a choice: you can do it with some style or not. carno chose option b. at least have some style, for gods sake. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-15-2006, 11:20 AM	#9 (permalink)
Toaster126 Extreme moderation Location: Kansas City, yo.	As a moderate, I enjoy both the cinnamon and the honey flavored ones and advocate an plan to eat both. I really wish more people stopped listening to the talking heads and tried both kinds. __________________ "The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

08-15-2006, 11:33 AM	#11 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Y'know...I was going to close this thread early on because I saw it for what I felt was trolling. Carno knows what I'm talking about. But then I thought better of it. I saw the humor in it, and left it alone. Guys! Look at yourselves. Are we taking ourselves so seriously, that we can't take two seconds out to laugh at ourselves? For crying out loud...lighten up. Jeez...the Carno's have already won. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

08-15-2006, 11:36 AM	#12 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	Can someone tell me which ones are the right ones to like? I haven't received my talking points memo yet and without it I'm soooooooo lost. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

08-15-2006, 06:54 PM	#13 (permalink)
analog Banned	Since when is a protest via civil disobedience NOT a staple of politics? He didn't post kiddie porn, he put a thread about Graham Crackers in Politics. That's not even really an offense. He had a point to make. He's now making that point. This is hardly "rule-breaking", so try not crawling up his ass so much, hmm? roachboy: chill out. If you spent as much time thinking as complaining, you'd have come up with a better retort than what you've posted, which is essentially, "this sucks". That's disappointing. And I like the ones with the cinnamon and brown sugar on them. Last edited by analog; 08-15-2006 at 07:06 PM..

08-15-2006, 07:04 PM	#14 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	Upon listening to all of your opinions, I have decided to change my stance and try the other flavors of graham crackers. Maybe my views aren't 100% right. (As an interesting aside, not even a silly thread about graham crackers can go without being spoiled while in Politics.) __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/ Last edited by Carno; 08-15-2006 at 07:06 PM..

08-15-2006, 07:13 PM	#16 (permalink)
ktspktsp Addict Location: Reykjavik, Iceland	Carno, why is this so important to you?

08-15-2006, 09:47 PM	#19 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Teddy Grahams, wasn't he a GOP Senator from Texas.... sat next to LBJ and was in on the JFK Conspiracy with the LBJ, the Mafia and Bush family? Even if he wasn't Teddy Grahams sound to right winged for me to enjoy. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

08-15-2006, 11:13 PM	#20 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Heh... this topic disappeared after two posts and arose again like a phoenix. Y'all ain't talk'n about "crackers" are ya? It's jus some mo Yankie code fo po white trash innit! I am sooo sincerely interested in this topic, because my darling granddaughter is a connoisseur of all that is graham. I'm sure I have at least a dozen pictures of her sampling that treat. I'll download those pics here and it will be obvious to all what the preferred graham cracker is among the precious. The subjugation of the graham is just another example of the corruption instigated by the MAN! Rise Up! Save the Graham! Yo, dude...crackers? Cool.

08-16-2006, 01:43 AM	#24 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	these aren't bad, either... __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

08-16-2006, 02:15 AM	#25 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	This thread can suck my balls!!! I got your cinnamon - I got your honeywheat!!! __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

08-16-2006, 04:44 AM	#27 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Wait......arent Graham Crackers a French Invention....I propose a name change. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

08-16-2006, 07:10 AM	#28 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Freedom Crackers? As an aside, it is sad to see there are some that just can't allow a little humor in here. They have to post, because they have to post in every thread, but it is to complain that there is humor in here. I guess I was there once.... humor in politics? Heavens forbid. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

08-16-2006, 08:02 AM	#30 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Im sorry, there is only ONE link in here and there isnt a page long post telling me how the invention of the graham cracker was the precursor to weapons of mass destruction I just cant make a decision based on a single wiki link... I've been as derpived as a child given a (honey maid) cracker and no milk!!!!!!!! __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

08-16-2006, 08:21 AM	#32 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	so let's think for a moment, shall we? let's assume for a moment that this cretin thread is worth taking seriously. at this point, thinking about this thread means that we have to consider what analog and cyn imagine themselves to be doing by legitimating it--analog by turning it into some act of civil disobedience (which is really pretty funny--it is the only laugh i have had from the thread so far)--and cyn by trying to "call me out" to "walk the walk"--cliches that really have no meaning in a thread such as this one----and which are close to insulting in that they imply that there has been nothing interesting from me in politics up to now. but whatever, i expect little from someone whose primary complaint in politics up to now is that he had to read too much when host posts. it is tedious to speculate about such matters, but i noticed that yesterday this thread disappeared for a while--i assume there was some discussion about how to deal with it, and that the two mod posts above indicate something like a decision has been taken and that both posts above are mod posts, not posts made by the individuals concerning their own views who happen also to be mods. but perhaps analog and cyn would care to confirm this before we keep going? maybe not--it is not that important to me. none of this is that important to me. carno has a series of associations with politics that he has presented, in various forms that others would have been challenged for having done--in gd discussions, in the "what happened to tfp" thread etc. those associations are close to the complaints i have seen from analog in the past, and presumably they correspond to cyn's views as well. they have nothing really to do with how things have been happening in politics over the past months, during which the character of discussion here has changed for the better--but attitudes are funny and seem to require no real-time data. apparently there are some who think that this should be true in all arenas. that politics should be a matter of attitude or a priori opinion and that information is secondary at best--so that it is an imposition when information is posted because the expectation is generated that you shoudl read it, which is a second imposition. debates then happen around that information--a third imposition. and so it goes. carno's basic complaint was that political threads were being posted in other forums. i pointed out to him that this was no big deal in itself and was probably a good thing in that folk who did not generally participate inthis forum were able to address questions in other places. in response, this thread. let's consider the logic, such as it is, that can be derived from the content of carno's snippy post--which would have been censured had it originated from other members---for example, if i had done something like this, i doubt seriously that either cyn or analog would have defended it. but i assume that there is a 3-d friendship between him and analog and cyn such that what he does here is not required to conform to the same rules as are binding on everyone else, and now both cyn and analog have made carno's special status official. so there are two sets of rules now. this is a new development. the logic of carno's snippy semi-literate op is not only that carno does not like politics, but further that he sees in politics something of a debased form of consumer activity. like which snack food to eat. what is there to say about this notion that politics is a variant of consumerism? that you can buy shit=that you are free? that you can "think" about commodities=that you can think about politics? please explain what is now going on in this thread. is this a mod "message" that folk who do not think that politics is a consumer question are not welcome here? or is the "message" that the level of discourse should be ratcheted down? or is the "message" that what i mentioned in the "what happened" thread--that the implication of much of what was being said about politics is that there is space for everyone except people like me here, now being made into an official position? i await your response. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-16-2006, 08:35 AM	#33 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Oh yawn...there he goes again. Everyone knows graham crackers are superior.

08-16-2006, 09:01 AM	#36 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	"elitist"..... huh. interesting. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-16-2006, 09:03 AM	#37 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	did I miss anyone bringing up the fact that graham crackers arent even made with graham flour anymore? my favorite pie crusts are GC crusts, much better and tastier than flour ones __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*