filtherton

http://www.jewsonfirst.org/06b/indianriver.htm

There's more to the article than what i posted; it's kind of a long article. Anyways, i don't know anything about the credibility of jewsonfirst.org. It doesn't really even matter to me if the story is true as it is reported in the article. Even if it is completely fictional what it is to me is a very plausible example of what would happen all over the place if there wasn't a clear seperation between church and state. Essentially, everything's great as long as you happen to subscribe to the religious beliefs of the majority in your area. If you don't, well then you're open to public criticisms, threats, conversion attempts, etc.

I'm just wondering how those who don't believe in the logic of seperation of church and state(i know they're here somewhere) feel about this story and why they think such a seperation isn't important.

MoonDog

Well, ask yourself about how public schools get away with baccalaureate programs. The one at my school was not considered to be "optional", and was held in a Catholic church, with a Catholic priest - although majority of the students were NOT Catholic.

Several of us expressed concerns over that, and were told that "that's the way it is going to be".

I went to my parents and said that I didn't want to go because there should be a separation between church and state, and that we weren't Catholic, but was given the parental override. That I can live with - they fed me, clothed me, housed me...that gave them the right to tell me what to do in my book. Especially since I wasn't 18.

Imposing religion in public schools is one of those "buttons" of mine that get pushed on occasion.

Seaver

I fully support prayer in school as long as it is done correctly.

We used to have prayer after football/wrestling practice and before games. No one was obligated to stay or participate, it was stated multiple times they would not be condemned in any way... and for any person caught trying to shame people into it there'd be harsh penalties.

The prayers helped weave coheasiveness in the team, it brought us closer in a way those who have not experienced it simply wouldnt understand.

Baccalaureates are held by non-governmental means. They are generally held, or at least greatly supported by, private people and churches. Because of this there isn't a question of church and state as the state effectively does not exist. If it was a graduation, where attendance is pretty much required, being held in a church by a priest would cause problems.

My own experience is at my baccalaureate we were catholic and they had a pentacostal (sp?) preacher. We were in south Texas, so a good 80% of the people there were catholic. He spent his speech ranting about how "true christians do not worship the wrong things, Mary is not to be revered as a god"... if you know anything about Catholicism you'll realize how much Mary is revered. Regardless to say the Catholic church started it's own baccalaureate which draws the vast amount of attendence now.

kutulu

That is such bullshit. I'm so sick of those people.

tecoyah

Everyone....and I mean EVERYONE should be free to practice the religion they choose to follow. The seperation clause we all find so confusing was an attempt to guarantee this within the framework of a free society. By allowing a single religious mindset to prevail in a place like the United States, we remove one of the foundations of this republic in my opinion.....and I will be very upset should this come to pass.
There will always be a majority, or a prevelant faith within any large population of humans, this is unavoidable truth. But , this cannot be allowed to diminish the ability of any one citizen to follow whatever path they feel is correct for them. If outcry from one minority demands a limitation on a majority it must be taken seriously, and heard....this is democracy within the republic.

The current fear of a "Christianization" within the United States is likely the fault of the very majority that is flexing its political muscle in the face of a fearful minority....and in my opinion the fear from these smaller faith communities is somewhat valid. As a Pagan I know where I stand in the eyes of the Falwell crowd, and proudly deny any affiliation with the hatred that part of Christianity stands for. That said, the Actual Christians in this country do little to quell the misconception created by these people, and so the fear grows, and distrust forms as to the message of love hidden in the followers of Christ.
Until religion is a non issue in politics, it will be a problem.....period. It does not fit, nor belong in legislative language in any form. It does not create peace within a community of peoples that differ in cultures, and has a long history of damaging societies as a whole (as well as healing many). Unfortunately for the God entity, mankind is at a crossroads in mental evolution....which in my opinion will eventually lead to its replacement in the context of faith.

Why would a forward thinking society allow a backward facing doctrine to guide its course.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

filtherton

What often confuses me is the idea that since many the founding fathers had ties to religious philosophies resembling modern christianity we should now let modern christians place their religious paraphenalia all over the public square. I don't get it.

MoonDog

Well, baccalaureate in my district was NOT an option. It was run by the school, by employees of the district, etc.

Seaver

Sort of like the dogmatic believe in separation of church and state?

When it was never a law.

When it was never stated in the Constitution.

When it was simply a footnote in a Jeffersonian speech, and most of the same people choose to ignore his MANY speeches on the right to bear arms?

debaser

Forget about this?

__________________

Charlatan

Interesting point.

How long before the US is a Theocracy? Are we really so far from A Handmaid'sTale?

Freedom is a funny thing... there has been this constant struggle in US history between the individual's rights and the power of religion.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

filtherton

Are you saying that you don't understand why people believe that there should be a seperation of church and state? I think the reasoning is clear when the article quoted in the op is taken into account. The founding fathers' role in all this, as far as i'm concerned, is completely tangential. A mere historical footnote.

I don't care about what the founding fathers thought about much of anything, really. As far as i'm concerned their most relevant opinions where codified in a document called the constitution. Beyond that, who cares if ben franklin thought prostitution was okay? The ff's didn't see fit to declare america a christian nation in the constitution, obviously it wasn't that important to them. I don't think it's necessary to use the ff's to bolster an argument as to why there should be a seperation of church and state; religious folk like the ones in the article in the op, or any theocracy that has existed ever, do a good enough job of making it clear why there should be a clear seperation between church and state.

Seaver

I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate (ironic considering it's the Church). I think there needs to be a separation. My point was the outright hostility to the idea of a Church providing services to graduating students who were in no way required to attend. In no way, shape, or form did the school coerce people into attending Moondog's event. While there may not have been a second option, to claim he would be somehow punished for not attending is rediculous.

guy44

Well, Holy Fuck. As if this story wasn't bad enough, it turns out that a website called Stop the ACLU decided to publish the names and new addresses of the Jewish family that had to move away because of the death threats, racial remarks, etc., against them. When asked about it, this is what the head of STACLU had to say:

http://patriotboy.blogspot.com/2006_...05133179072443

You can also find a screenshot of that website at that link.

This is why you keep any and all state-sponsored religion out of schools. Because nothing's crazier than a homogenous group of religious fundamentalists - no matter the religion.

Lastly, and this may be somewhat unfair, but to the guilty parties in that Delaware school district: Fuck you. Fuck you and your inbred fucking Christian Right, KKK-loving hick families, too. Arg.





P.S. Yeah, the KKK did make an appearance as well. Sigh.

__________________
"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

kutulu

What a bunch of miserable, worthless fucks.

matthew330

surely your referring to the creators of patriotboy.blogspot.com.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Celebrating a holiday in school, removing the word "God" from the pledge of allegience, having the 10 commmandments in front of a courthouse and the relatively new phenomena of removing this and all other religious references on public property - including a cross displayed at a public memorial, etc etc. None of this violates the constituational ammendment cited above. Where is the constitutional law?

The reaction to the above references to religion is not motivated by concern for the possibility of a situation described in the article of the OP. None of the above violates the constituational ammendment cited, and the original article can't be used to justify efforts like this. If anything it's a effort to establish the relgion of liberalism (props to Ann Coulter - God i love that girl), and supress all others.

Talk about the playing the politics of fear..... Kutulu certainly seems very afraid, and he's obviously not the only one.

guy44

Um...was that post a joke?

__________________
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matthew330

kutulu

matthew330:

First of all, I'll ignore the blatant personal attack.

There is obvious tension and anti-semitism going on against those people. Then to add fuel to the fire, some jackass posts their personal information on the web. That is clearly insiteful behavior. At the least, it invites threatening phone calls and letters, it would not be shocking if it led to a murder. So yes, the people who did that are miserable fucks.

Schools have things like moments of silence for a reason. It allows those who wish to start the day with a prayer without singling out the jew or the muslim. Before you criticize those who don't want your religion shoved in their faces all of the time, consider what it's like for those on the outside.

Personally, I've always thought that the ones who have to go around showing what they 'are' to everyone are the insecure ones. That goes way beyond religion too:

The little guy in the truck with the 4' lift
The guy who has to make 'fag' jokes at every possible moment
The arrongant one who picks on people
And yes, the zealot that has to run around saying "look at me, I'm a Christian, I'm better than you 111!

It's just another form of bullying.

Seaver

So will painting with a wide brush, you pick up all kinds of dirt along the way.

The_Jazz

How about Everson vs. Board of Education (1947) or Engel vs. Vitale (1962). You can also look at the Tripoli Treaty of 1792 where the Founding Fathers themselves explicitly stated that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The 10 Commandments on the courthouse lawn is a blatant violation of the 1st Amendment, which applies to both the states and the Federal governments.

By the way, the rest of you post is a red herring, and your second post is flat out offensive. If you'd like to discuss the topic rationally without resorting to personal attacks, have at it, but otherwise you're just being an asshole. If I read your post correctly, you're all for further harrassment of the plaintiffs in this case, and you seem to have dismissed their claims as absolutely groundless without knowing any of the facts. Obviously the suit is simply their version of the facts, but that doesn't mean that it's not true. After all, the original suit of the Brown v. Board of Ed. proved to be substantially true and the court ruled because of those facts. Having been to Southern Delaware fairly recently, I don't have any problem imagining that the allegations could be true.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Ample

Wow I had no idea that this was happening in my state. So glad I live in northern Delaware rather than slower Delaware.

If students want to pray or even read the bible I have no problem with that, but when the people that shape our youngsters mix personal views on religion in our public schools, I have a problem. I don’t want teachers expressing their political views to students. Bible clubs and passing out religious pamphlets, I find that outrageous. I would be so pissed if I found that happening in my daughter’s classroom.

Schools should stick to what they know, English, math, and art. Leave the religion to be taught by parents.

__________________

Her juju beads are so nice
She kissed my third cousin twice
Im the king of pomona

Mojo_PeiPei

Treaty of Tripoli was ratified with many different versions, only one of them contained the 10th clause that people so oftenly point regarding the "foundation" of this country; on top of that the Treaty of Tripoli was never re-ratified, therefore it is not law nor binding.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

The_Jazz

Given that its a treaty with a foreign power that no longer exists, it's irrelevant anyway. The relevant point is that it was ratified in the first place and was in fact law and binding during the early history of the country, most pointedly at the point that the Founding Fathers were still the political force of the nation. It is very relevant to the arguement and goes to show the FF's intent in the 1st Amendment.

However, the Treaty of Tripoli has little or nothing to do with the topic of the harrassment of non-Christians by government employees. Should the allegations be proven, I would hope for a hefty judgement against the school system (which would be paid by insurance companies, btw) and the firing/resignation of the offending officials. Government authorities, regardless of their faith (or lack thereof), should not be able to force their personal views on students in an extra curricular manner.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Philosopher

From what I gather, the USA has something about God in it's pledge of allegiance and on it's money.

Tough luck if you are an American Atheist, hey?

America comes across as Christian nation, one that says it supports freedom to choose ones religion and the separation of church and state, but that seems to be "in theory" more than in real life.

In Australia I worry over the power of the churches, but I think they are kept in check more than in America. One thing I don't like is the saying of the lords prayer in Parliament. They need to replace that with moments of silence instead.

shakran

You're correct in that it's not in the constitution. However courts have consistantly ruled that governments should not be mixing with religion. The separation of church and state idea is a very real one in United States law.

And it's a good idea. How can we have true freedom of (and/or from) religion if government institutions, including schools, are forcing people to participate in it?

Bill O'Rights

Yeah...it seems that way to a lot of us, as well.

Our "Pledge of Allegience" was written in 1892, by a Baptist minister of all things. At that time there was no mention of "God" in the Pledge. However, in 1954, under pressure from the Knights of Columbus, the words "under God" were added. Do I wish that it weren't there? I suppose that I do. But, in the end, it's still a pledge of allegience to our flag, and our country...not a declaration of devotion to any god. I have bigger problems in life.

Hey! Look at that! Our money does have "In God We Trust" on it. Oh well, with the price of gas, it doesn't stay in my pocket long enough to offend me. Besides, what's up with that masonic pyramid? You know...the one with the all seeing eye of illumination. The one with the latin for New Secular Order. The one where if you draw an imagianary "Star of David", using the pyramid itself as the basis, all points, with the exception of the uppermost point, point to the letters A,S,N,O and M. An anagram for...Mason. Coincidence? I think not!

What ? Take it to Tilted Paranoia, you say? There is a very fine line, these days, between politics and paranoia.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

filtherton

America is christian like george bush is conservative. America likes the idea of being identified as christian, but doesn't like actually doing anything remotely in line with what christ taught. America's real god is money and i think you'll find that in most places where god and money have come into conflict god was discarded a long long time ago.