analog

So I was at work the other day and was thinking about the implications of murder and suicide on the soul of a person, and how that relates to where they "go" when they die. Note that this conversation assumes 1.) heaven and hell are real and 2.) I'm working off of the "rules" set forth in the Christian religions wherein murder sends you to hell when you die, as well as if you commit suicide.

Also, if anyone wants to throw in for other religions and their opinions on those, please feel free- I just am not knowledgable enough to discuss this in-depth outside of my own area.

So here's the thing...

You commit murder, you go to hell. Assume there is no chance for absolution- the murderer dies without devine forgiveness.

You commit suicide, you go to hell.

So what do you think would happen if you killed someone in self-defense? What about in defense of someone else? Like, a guy is bearing down on you with a knife, and you shoot him in the chest. You know for a fact that you would have died if you didn't kill him. Do you think that still "counts"? Are we supposed to die if someone is trying to kill us, since killing him would send you to burn? Do you think God weighs those sorts of things?

A better example would be in defense of another. You find a man poised to stab someone in the chest- if you shoot him he dies, but you save the life of his victim. Do you think that would count?

Ok, that was murder... which was actually a secondary thought of mine... the first thoughts I had came while I was thinking about the movie Apollo 13.

What if you had to kill yourself to save the life of another? The example was this (and if i'm a little off from the movie just ignore it, the movie was the basis, not the point):

Three men in a spaceship. They find out that there is only enough oxygen for 2 men to get back to earth. None of them are going to kill another. So unless one person dies NOW by some other means, all three will die when the oxygen runs out. So you want to save their lives, you excuse yourself to the bathroom, and stab yourself in the heart with a screwdriver or something. In this case of sacrifice, if you killed yourself, do you think you would still burn for it?

Does saving the life of another person trump your own suicide?

I use this example because it's absolute... it's not like you run to push someone out of the path of a car and accidentally get hit yourself... it's a willful act of suicide.

Do you think the "rules" are interpreted by their reasons for happening? Do you think God goes more by the intention than the acts themselves?

MageB420666

Seems the Apollo reference creates a conflict, since I was under the impression that self sacrifice is a definite get in, while suicide is a ticket to hell.

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Grasshopper Green

I'm agnostic, so I really don't know about all this stuff. However, if there is a God, I would hope that He would look at circumstances individually. My brother is a good example of this...because he had a severe mentally disabling illness and killed himself, does that still condemn him to hell? I would certainly hope not.

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snowy

In my belief system, Hell is the absence of the Godhead, their love, and all that is good and light in the world. Murderers obviously get sent to this place. It is, more or less, a waiting room for all eternity.

The result of suicide, in my belief system, is a do-over. You relive the life you tried to live before. Same circumstances as your previous life. You live this life over time and time again until you make it through without suicide.

Self-defense obviously falls outside of these circumstances, as does defense of another.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Zeraph

If the rules are absolute then you would change definitions. So the space one would be Sacrifice, not Suicide. The self defense one would be manslaughter or something and not murder. Mentally ill would be in the same category as death by elements, and not suicide. Or if you believe in him, death by devil.

Johnny Rotten

I agree with Zeraph. The Christian god doesn't strike me as a "letter of the law" kind of guy. The Old Testament god, perhaps, but not the New Testament one.

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martinguerre

"I'm working off of the "rules" set forth in the Christian religions wherein murder sends you to hell when you die, as well as if you commit suicide."

Well, whoever says that isn't orthodox. There is only one unforgivable sin, and those two aren't it.

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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

analog

I didn't bring up absolution because 1.) not every religion has the catholic "I'm sorry, please forgive me", "get out of hell free" card and 2.) suicides can't ask forgiveness, so i was ignoring it for murders.

Etarip

ummm, why can't suicides ask for forgiveness? At least for our argument "dead" doesn't mean no longer existing.

martinguerre

analog...if you're not talking about Catholicism...then what strawman are you talking about?

You have a responsibility to at least name who you're arguing against when you issue this kind of polemic.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Xazy

Jewish rule is you are allowed to kill someone who is going to kill you.

Also suicide is a big no-no.

Seeker

I was under the impression that God would know your intentions... he can read your heart, yes? So I would agree that it is more about the intentions and not the act.

Therefore, if you murder because you like it, or you have no compassion or respect for life... yep, you go to hell (absence of God in the after-life in this scenario). Self-defence would have an 'Oh my, I really didn't want to do that... what a shame... whatever. Basic intention here is quite different for each position.

My brother too committed suicide... and I still struggle with the after-life/suicide deal. I logically like to think that if you have the capacity to take your life, then you are sick and therefore not held accountable. But, if God reads intentions then I could be sadly disappointed...

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To those who wander but who are not lost...

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snowy

That is why I like the do-over concept for suicides. I firmly believe life is a lesson to be learned (or many) and suicide is kind of like skipping class--sure, they have all these issues, they are sick, but they have to work through it sometime. It's like a REALLY hard homework assignment. Sure, they might have to try it five times, but eventually they'll get it, and you'll see them on the other side.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Daoust

Well I'll give you the biblical answer to your question, and you can either accept it or reject it.

The bible says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There is none who are righteous, not even one.

That means whether you're a murderer, or you commit suicide, or you accidently kill someone, or you lie, covet, fornicate, adulterate, cheat, whatever...

or even if you've never done any of those things, if you call yourself a 'good' person, and you try your best and you follow the golden rule...

The bible says that there is only one way to heaven... Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me."

So the implicit instruction there is that any who chose to reject Jesus as their Saviour are in essence rejecting Gods way of salvation from Hell for eternity.

I know, I know. You already don't like this answer. That's fine. That's your choice. I can't force you to believe this. I'm just telling you what the Bible says...

And there is no difference between the God of the Old and New Testaments. They're the same Person.

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I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

Seeker

I so get you here snowy. I also think there is room for everyone to do do-overs, but that is another thread!

But for the sake of this thread, as analog has put forward "You commit suicide, you go to hell.", and therefore I am looking at it in that context. I believe that the intent is judged more so than the action, so when I look at suicide (not sacrifice ) all I can see is the basic intent being "Fuck you/this, I'm outta here!"

I can't shake that off. If it's as plain and simple as it's stated in the Bible, the intent behind suicide is a pretty big slap in the face for God. A total rejection. It doesn't matter what my personal philosophies are, I can not totally throw out this possibility. This is a possibility that I have to face.

As analog said; "The Black, White and Grey Areas"... and I find this bit with my brother covers all three of them!

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

xepherys

Daoust-

God is God, but his demeanoer is certainly different between the two testaments. In the Old, He was wrathful and Vengeful against those who would not follow his path. The Jews were subjected to punishment MANY times for decades. Then some brilliant Jew would be like, "Hey! Remember how we used to do things?" and life would get better. In the New, He is a warm, fuzzy God that wants his son to be your ticket home. Aside from the Apocolypse, there isn't much bad in the New Testament.

As to the OP, remember that even in human terms, killing in the name of defense is not "murder". It can be "self-defense" or "manslaughter". Also note that these words are created by humans and interpreted by humans and have nothing to do directly with Gods will.

Personally, I am a non-denominational spiritualist. I believe that, primarily, all organized religions have it more or less right, but that in practice ALL of them fall short. Your relationship with god (note that when speaking of my own beliefs, there is no capitalization) is a personal one. It should not reflect your church attendance, what book you read (Koran, Bible, et cetera), or what day you worship. It should not reflect what you call god, whether there are more than one god or not, or how you communicate with him or her. In my beliefs, EVERYTHING is about intent. Words are human creation, and god cares not for them. THey make no difference as they limit intent. Intentions, however, are divine. They are the true meaning behind everything, even when words cannot describe the specific intent. When one is TRULY and WHOLLY in love... can they really express what they feel in words? Poets and writers have tried for ages, but to no real end. When you have true HATE in your heart for someone, which is within human nature to easily do, can you say how you feel? Or do you stammer in your anger? Real emotion and intent has no words to describe it. The powers that be have no use for our words or our labels and judge solely on intent of the heart and the soul. IMHO of course...

Tachion

If at the moment of your death you, in your heart, knew that you ONLY had the love of others as the reason for your action then you are already in heaven.

You will be your own judge at your death.

Daoust

Wonderful theory, but these are a dime a dozen. Does everyone who comes up with their own unique path to heaven get there???

There are a plethora of verses in the old and new testament that speak of God as a just, holy, and righteous judge.
The old Testament discusses in a lot of ways Gods disappointment with his creation. He created them to love and serve him, but his people didn't always want to do that.

As has been said before, the OT is God showing man that man is imperfect and that by themselves man cannot be equal with God. Man was inferior. Theres a lot of bad stuff in there, and by that I mean bad people. People failing to meet Gods standard of perfection.

In the NT God provides a way for God and Man to be in fellowship. A plan to redeem mand to God. Its a happy thing. It's good.

God is the same God. Since the beginning. He jsut had different methods of dealing with his people from beginning to now.

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I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

analog

Dude, this is tilted philosophy, not politics; I'm not arguing anything. I was merely pondering this the other day, and thought it might make for interesting discussion.

I said I was coming from the knowledge base of Christian religions (not just Catholicism), and...

So chill out and ponder along with the rest of us, or move on to something else please. The back button is your friend.

Tachion

Yes - Its all relative to the person. Its not an absolute we all share.

We all have individual concepts of what constitutes a good person and we know at our death if we are one.

We can make our own heaven or hell right here on earth, and the moment of your death you know which you did and what you carry forward.

I don't believe there is an outside 'judge' - there is no need for one as we all carry one with us and it knows everything in your heart.

You already know if you would honestly let yourself in heaven or hell, you don't need someone else to tell you.

Daoust

But what if your plan doesn't work? What if you are wrong?

Also- I would assume that the one who owns heaven ultimately gets the choice as to whether you get in or not. Deity or no, whoever it is that runs heaven would choose if you can come in or not, I'd think.

If you about to enter the house of an acquaintance to visit, you don't automatically say to the person after knocking "you don't have a choice whether or not I enter your house. I have made my own rules, and they basically are that I get to enter your house whether you like it or not."

No, ultimately it's the homeowners choice whether you enter or not.

__________________
I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

Tachion

Lets assume you are right and an outside judge exists.

I would stand by the fact that love and good intent drove my actions.
If I was sent to hell because of someone saying - these are the rules- then quite frankly I would be happier in hell, as those in hell would share my values. It would be tthe judges heaven that would seem like hell to me as it would be against my values.

So either way I get to be in my heaven.

martinguerre

analog...i think my question was fair, and i know where i'm posting thankyouverymuch.

if you're presenting this view as "Christian," then as a Christian who's never heard that taught...i'm entitled to ask who in Christendom you think you're representing with these views. So...

Who is it?

If you're struggling to come up with a name...might i suggest that in fact the thought experiment here, while provoking, does not represent an adequate formulation of Christian doctrine.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Toaster126

The Christian bible is pretty clear with the fact that by asking forgiveness in a sincere manner with the intent not to repeat the sin God forgives us. The Christian bible also states that the way to salvation and eternal life is through Jesus. Murder and suicide are sins, sure. Killing someone just isn't an automatic sentence to hell according to that book. It sounds like you may be going off of Catholic dogma from your post - something like different degrees of sin. The bible doesn't have that.

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"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

asaris

It doesn't really seem to me that suicide is an automatic 'go directly to hell' card. If we can repent in this life, why can't we repent after the resurrection? If God is merciful enough to forgive me, surely he's merciful enough to forgive someone who committed suicide.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Coppertop

Similar to what happens in Brave New World. I agree with this.

Seeker

See, now I equate this with me being a parent...

If my daughter said "Blow this I'm outta here", I'd be pretty annoyed and I'd feel like a failure as a parent etc etc...

But I'm pretty sure that if she came back at a later stage and said "Ok, well I really stuffed up there..." I know I'd have it in me to forgive her and take her back.

I'd really like to think of God having this sort of arrangement rather than the "nope... you go to hell" bit.

Quite honestly I can't remember exactly where the specifics of the 'suiciders' fate is in the Bible, and I can't remember anything that really offers forgiveness after the fact. Is there anything that may point to this?

Aside: I thought this might also be enlightening to clarify the "suicide=hell" bit. *shrugs*

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

asaris

The argument basically runs "Well, you have to ask forgiveness in this life to be forgiven; obviously, you can't do that if you commit suicide, therefore you can't be forgiven for suicide". Historically, the church actually divided suicides into two categories; those who committed suicide from 'melancholy' and those that did so from 'despair'. Only the second category automatically went to hell (and so were not buried on consecrated ground). This has always sounded too much like a technicality, and I don't think God keeps people out of heaven on technicalities.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Zyr

Background: I'm agnostic, so don't really have a clue about all this, but I do have a christian friend, who is probably the only christian person I really respect (aside from the people here) as most of them really don't even understand their own religion.

Anyway, he was telling me about the idea that people have, that if you follow these rules, you go to heaven, you don't you go to hell, (Salvation through deeds) which basically makes no sense.

The problem, is that as a human, you are decendent from Adam, and thus inheret the sins of him, which you can't get rid of, no matte how good you are. Only through accepting Jesus can you be absolved, at which point, all your sins are absolved. So, if you accept Christ, you win (heaven), no matter what you do, and if you don't, then you lose (hell). Now, this, in theory, would mean you could be a mass murderer, and still go to heaven, however, the trick is, that if you were a mass murderer, then you wouldn't be doing what Christ would want you to do, and thus would not be really accepting him.

Long story short, if you kill someone, or commit sucide, you're still ok, as long as it's the right thing by Christ.

(By the way, sorry for any inaccuracies in that explanation, this is 2nd hand information, which I can't remember exactly, and is basically my interpretation of my memory. If anyone wants to try and write that out better, by all mean, go ahead.)

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"Oh, irony! Oh, no, no, we don't get that here. See, uh, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about, uh, '83 when I was the only practitioner of it, and I stopped because I was tired of being stared at."

Omnia mutantu, nos et mutamur in illis.
All things change, and we change with them.
- Neil Gaiman, Marvel 1602

Toaster126

My take on that is that it is not salvation through deeds. It is that when someone decides to dedicate their lives to the Christian ideal, there are lots of behaviors they try and stay away from (or actively pursue) because of that dedication to doing their God's will. So it isn't deeds make salvation, it's salvation makes the deeds.

The story of the crucifixtion has a man who was a sinner all his life who accepted Jesus as his savior while on the cross. According to scripture, that would put him in the "saved" column, and his life was pretty sinful.

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

Zyr

What I meant was that the first part, the part that doesn't work, was salvation through deeds. They think that what they do, their deeds, is what matters. I really need to write that out better, to make it less confusing.

(Have edited it to make it more readable)

__________________
"Oh, irony! Oh, no, no, we don't get that here. See, uh, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about, uh, '83 when I was the only practitioner of it, and I stopped because I was tired of being stared at."

Omnia mutantu, nos et mutamur in illis.
All things change, and we change with them.
- Neil Gaiman, Marvel 1602

tecoyah

OK....I just asked her, and she was laughin' quite a bit.

She said if you kill someone, you better have a damn good reason (said something about Whales too, but she started mumbling again). She said if you commit suicide, its your own loss, and you'll need to take the whole ride again. She said if you decide to self sacrifice.....well, she thinks you're pretty cool but you still need to buy another ticket for the rest of the ride. Then she started rambling about money and bright lights....said something about war bein' stupid....and passed me a cup of coffee.

Gods a Redhead.

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