Phage

Does it count if when you were reacting to that something, you knew far in advance that it would happen?
I suppose that it really goes back to what you think someone changing their mind is. To me it indicates the time at which someone comes up with a new view of a situation; for God that would have been far before the situation (or any situation) actually came up. If you think changing your mind is just the change in behavior, then of course God would do that.

mrklixx

If god voted in this poll and then later changed "his" mind about the answer, would anybody know, or would the poll simply be eradicated from existence?

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This post is content. If you don't like it then you are not content. Or perhaps just incontinent.

This is not a link - Do not click here

I hate animated avatars.

asaris

Because either God can change his mind, or he knows ahead of time that you will pray and that he will heal in response to that prayer.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

RCAlyra2004

This really is a strange question to ask if you are really non-religious, like me, I was surprised that I answered it as well as I did in my previous post...

__________________
Living on the edge of sanity

Janey

True, but that is a human failing. God is, by definition, beyond that. as humans, we have to deal with, and interpret God in the best manner that we can: using pronouns, names, ideas, icons, creating religions and forms of worship, strategies/philosophies for accepting or denying God's existance.

But to address the question, I still stand by my earlier statement with respect to God in an absolute sense.

Janey

I think that the complexity of the issue derives from our (human) attempts at interpretation. God in God's absoluteness would be as described: Omni - all ...

Janey

Originally Posted by aintyoboyfriend
This reminds me of an old argument.

If God is all-powerful, can he create a boulder so large and heavy that even he cannot move it?

why? I thought this was cute and a point worth pondering...


can it happen?

Phage

My frustration was because I already mentioned that saying and provided an interpretation; it was an illustration of one of my points. aintyoboyfriend's comment did not contribute anything to the thread other than the message "I didn't really read more than the first post, so I will just sort of poop whatever comes to mind onto the page as a spacer!"

Janey

Ahhh.. okay sorry, i thought i read through everything.... so i'm going back over the log...

asaris

Before we start discussing God and rocks again, I suggest people check out this thread.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

loonatic8her

And I Quote

Malachi 3:6
3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

This is of course asuming we are speaking of the Christian God.... dont know about Budda, or any of the other religions gods.

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The Loonatic

Did you get rid of all the voices in your head?
Do you now miss them and the things they said?

asaris

Yes, but passages like that (and there are plenty) can be taken to mean that God is constant, that is, he doesn't change his mind on a whim, that we can trust him, that when he says he's going to do something he means it, that sort of thing. Compare that passage to the passages where God gets angry. Now, if God can get angry, presumably there are times when he is not angry. But that means he changes (goes from not-angry to angry). So passages like Malachi can't simply mean God doesn't change.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Justsomeguy

Correct. Especially if we are to refer to god as infinite. Anything infinite cannot change and still be defined as infinite because change presupposes a quantitated amount.

Good could not change his mind because what is good would never change. We have to take into consideration goodness itself rather than our interpretation. Also, to quote Genesis in an argument related to Christianity is like using Euthyphro to define ancient greek society.
Anyone in a basic philosophy class has seen this pathetic argument. It fails to take into consideration the basic definition of god, creation, and the order of natural things. I don't think I have to get into specifics because I'm sure most of you that has seen it has noticed obvious flaws.

abaya

Who cares if God changes his mind or not? It's beyond our comprehension and ability to reason out, otherwise someone would've figured this out a long time ago. Also, whether or not God changes his mind doesn't change the fact that humans will believe whatever suits their situation best. Belief is a form of adaptation to one's environment, and humans live in a pretty hostile world most of the time.

This is why I have stopped praying, at least with any intent of "changing God's mind." If I pray, it's more like sending an IM to whoever/whatever this god may be... not out of an intent to change anyone's mind, but just to check in and way "What's up, this is where I'm at..." Why would I expect God to change anything for me? Not that I think he's malicious or unjust... quite the opposite. But lots of good, devout people pray all the time for good stuff to happen, or to prevent bad stuff (like a loved one's death)... sometimes it changes, sometimes it doesn't. Such is life. One's belief should not be predicated on the amount that your prayer changes God's mind.

As we all have time to sit around and argue about stuff like this, God probably sits up there shaking his head at us and saying "Do something else that's more productive for each other" (or at least do your work, which is what I should be doing right now!).

In brief: if anyone has a solid answer for any theological question (including myself), I'm pretty suspicious of their source.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

meembo

Is there an option called "How the hell would I know?"

I suspect that if there was something out there that exerted influence on God -- God wouldn't be God! I think it's mistake try try to get your head all the way around the idea of what God must be. Intellectual answers CANNOT answer these questions. Omniscient? Omnipotent? As far as we know! As a speck in this universe, I don't feel qualified to say.

If God changed "his" mind, then the only way we would know this is by inferring there was a change in our existence and that we expected the change to be from God. I think the question ought to be is if anything we do at all changes our existence vis a vis our relationship to God. I think the answer is no. I believe God gave people freedom of choice, and with that freedom comes an acceptance of our world as it is. I can live with that.

I can't imagine second-guessing the creator of my universe. I'm happy to enjoy what I've got, and to pass it on when I can.

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less I say, smarter I am

sargon

You see....
.
.
.
.
.
time doesn't really exist....

Tophat665

sargon,
That's brilliant, but then the question becomes, can anyone change their mind?

__________________
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

tecoyah

Yes....we can

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

sargon

Time is like a good way to watch all the decisions you've already made in an interesting and captivating way. Changing your mind, free will, and decision making are like the eye candy of time. So it's like time candy.

kiaora

It says in the bible that God is constant.
He's the same yesturday as he is tomorrow. his character doesn't change so I would say no, he doesn't change his mind.

squeamish

god is an assumption?

kiaora

Saying there is no God is an assumption aswell

Phage

For the purposes of the question, yes. If we were to ask "Is golf a sport?" one of the assumptions would be that golf exists (or else the question would have no meaning). Questioning such an assumption is off topic.

lindseylatch

Whew, that's very Buddhist-ee. Meaning it reminds me of some of the philosophies of Buddhism, particularly the Middle Way school and the Mind-Only school. I think it's a very interesting idea, and definitely one worth thinking about.
Paradox are solved in two ways, logic and a religious understanding. I think you've done both here.

I guess not all of us read everything before we post.


Upon consideration, I would have to agree that He can change his mind, but has no reason too. He knows everything that will happen before it happens, and so acts accordingly. Of course, sometimes He's sneaky, and makes us THINK He changed his mind...But it's all just a trick to make us poor human's feel like we have a say in what happens.
Just because He knows what we're going to do before we do it doesn't mean we don't have free-will. He knows our future actions, but doesn't change them even if they're "bad."
And if I just said exactly what someone else said already, well...Great mind think alike!

__________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."
-Voltaire

hypnotic4502

i have a strong doubt of gods existance due to his somewhat changing nature in the bible.in the old testament he was full of wrath,condoned murder,rape and slavery.

old testament :

"The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the Earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the Earth- men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air- for I am grieved that I have made them."
..........Genesis 6:6-7

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
-Deuteronomy 20:10-14

"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money."
-Exodus 21:20

"Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"
-Psalms 137:9

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed and spread dung upon your faces..."
-Malachi 2:3

those are pretty bad........lol

but i dont like what the bible has to say about women's right either in the new testament:

"As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."
-1 Corinthians 14:34

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
-Timothy 2:11

come to think of it jesus wasnt exactly a peaceful god,reading his scriptures:

"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."
..........Luke 14:26

"If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."
..........John 15:6

this might be off topic but its one of my favorite quotes

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
- Epicurus

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Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
-Isaac Asimov

shadowmaster

God permits things to happen, since he wants man to have free will. God has a plan for your life, but he permits you to go either way.

God would never change anything, by the whole factor that he is the perfect being, for him to even consider changing his mind, he would no longer be perfect.

Also being that God exists in a domain outside of time (since he created time) there is no way that we can reach a propper conclusion. Our understanding is based on time our minds canot comprehend something that is outside of time, so i call for a close of this thread, cause truly we will never reach a conclusion.

Everything that exits has a creator, God's existance cannot be discussed because he is outside the realm of time, and so this question would fit this same catagory.

Another thing, e cannot comprehend how the mind of God works, all we have is the Bible to guide us, but even then we are only using anthropomorphic language in order to describe something that God is feeling.l

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I always make sure my job is done before I go

hypnotic4502

sorry but i disagree

i think the biblical god is man made,due to the authors projecting their emotions into scripture like homophobia,male chauvinism,anger,murder,slavery,incest,love and hate.
with all the authors,much of the bible contradicts itself also btw

shadowaster you stated that everything that exists has a creator,then who created god?

if god is omnipotent,perfect and all knowing:
1.it's illogical to believe that he wouldn't create anything.(he would be perfect,complete have no desires,no emotions and have no need to.)
2.perfection can't create imperfection(if something is perfect nothing imperfect can come from it)
3.concerning freewill if god is omnipotent he could have easily created humans with freewill that didn't have the ability to choose evil,but to choose several good options.instead he made us imperfect humans that displease him for making imperfect decisions.
4.god is supposedly omniscient.when he created the universe,he saw the suffering which humans would go through as a result of the sin of those original humans.he heard the screams of the damned,he knew of the supposed eternal suffering.a perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.
5.god is supposed to be a just god,but he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins.clearly this limited offense doesnt warrant the punishment.
6.consider all the people that live in remote regions of the world that have never heard of jesus christ.consider all the people that followed the religion that they werent born into that wasnt christianity.it doesnt matter how just,kind and generous they were during their lifetime.if they don't accept the gospel of jesus they are condemmned.no just god would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions

anyway,thats just my opinion

__________________
Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
-Isaac Asimov

asaris

As I'm sure you're aware, one of the traditional arguments for the existence of God is that everything has to have a cause. But even if the sequence of events in the universe were infinite (ie, there was no starting point), the sequence itself would require a cause. Since we don't just want to go around in circles here, it makes sense to posit a being, such that he is his own cause. Let's call that being God. The short version is that God is his own creator.

Who says perfection can't have desires? God certainly didn't have to create, but he wanted to. But it's not like this made him more perfect.
I'm not even sure this is true. But, even if it is, it still doesn't apply. God created a perfect world. It's us that mucked it up.
Nope. Free will entails that free choices are up to us, not up to God. OTOH, for a more complicated view, check out my thread on Molinism. I'm sure it's around here somewhere.
Eh. I'm not sure what to say about this; as a Christian, I am saddened by the fact that there are some who will go to hell. I know God is saddened as well. But he doesn't force anyone to go to hell, and so I'm not sure what your claim here amounts to.
They might be finite sins, but they're sins against an infinite being. Moreover, it's more the state of one's heart that God considers, and as long as that remains the same, God is justified in keeping you away from him. I've even thought that heaven and hell are the same place, but while the good enjoy God's presence, the evil cannot stand it.
Yeah, yeah. No one knows what happens to these people. God, in his perfect justice, would be right in sending these people to hell, just as he would be right in sending me to hell. But we know that God loves all of mankind, and so it's entirely possible that some of these will be saved. We believe that those who trust in God will be saved; we know that those who reject God will be condemned. But we don't know about those who have never heard the good news, whether because they live in a remote location, or because they were prevented from hearing because of events in their own life.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

hypnotic4502

perfection wouldnt have desires or emotion.it would be whole whole and complete in itself

you call this world perfect?especially Christianity that condems all homosexuals that were born that way?

as far as god creating imperfect people and sentencing them to hell for finite sins for infinity,just doesnt pan out.doesnt sound too loving to me

what really gets me is that belief is held more highly than actions

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

that scripture pretty well sums up about what happens to all the people that live in remote regions of the world that have never heard of jesus christ,etc.

i wouldnt exactly call Christianity "good news" by any means,the atrocities committed in the name of religion i find disgusting.

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Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
-Isaac Asimov

asaris

Most of your post just shows you don't really understand Christianity and don't really want to. But I feel bound to say that I never said the world was perfect, only that it was created perfect.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

hypnotic4502

i find your assumptions to be quite wrong,considering at one time i was a Christian.

the world isnt and never was perfect,man wrote the bible,man created god,and man is prone to mistakes and myths and tall tales.

__________________
Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
-Isaac Asimov

Seeker

I would say 'yes' he can change his mind, but he wont make changes purely because he can. In my interpretations, god IS a constant for us as his children. The ultimate parent.

We pray for understanding, not for him to change his mind.

For all the bad that happens, he has given us free will, and Satan has more influence over us than God can at the moment. God has entrusted us to make the choice - therefore he cannot interject and change anything. This would contradict the reason why Satan was given rights for a period of time.

We have available, everywhere you look, the tools and the knowledge to make our decisions. God has allowed us to make our own choices.

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

asaris

I'm working on a more detailed response, but my computer isn't cooperating. For a short answer: prove it, prove it, prove it, that's why we need Christianity and prove that this is relevant to Christianity.

A little more on that last statement. Why is it that man is prone to myths and tall tales? Is is because we seek a totalizing framework to make sense of our experiences, or is it because we have some sort of primordial awareness of a reality which escapes our five sense? What evidence do you have for one over the other?

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

shadowmaster

I'll restate this, since God dwells in a realm outside of time, we cannot comprehend what he is, how he came to be, and he's emotions. We can try to make sense out of his actions using anthropomorphic language (which is using humanic terms to try to describe something that is not to our level of understanding). Since our thought process dweels in the realm of time, we cannot comprehend God. (let that be that)

and one more thing, since man is imperfect everything he makes is imperfect saying that, we can conclude that man could not have written the Bible, since there are no contradictions and no lies in it. absolutely no mistakes. And if you can tell me a mistake, I'll see if your right, and if your right , I'll stop being a christian. Disprove the Bible and I'll let go of my faith.

__________________
I always make sure my job is done before I go

asaris

Well, I promised a longer post, and here it is. I've actually argued against some of these points in my first post, which you didn't really argue against (statements are not arguments), so if there's some repetition, you'll forgive me, I'm sure.

Why? We certainly teach that God is whole and complete in Himself, but why does this entail that he can't create? We teach that he freely creates; he didn't have to create, and wouldn't be less perfect if he hadn't created. But the availability of choice doesn't imply imperfection. There is more than one way to be perfect.

The Christian stance on homosexuality varies quite a bit. To the best of my knowledge, most denominations teach that, if homosexuality is an innate trait (and AFAIK, this is still an open discussion), it is not a condemnable offense. This is certainly the teaching of my denomination, that while it is not a sin to *be* a homosexual, it is a sin to perform homosexual actions. As it stands, I happen to agree with my denomination. I'm not condemning homosexuals, even 'active' homosexuals. Lord knows I've committed worse sins myself, and it must be a hard temptation to deal with. But, even though other interpretations are possible, it seems to me to be the clear teaching of scripture that homosexuals actions are wrong.

As far as the world being perfect, of course I don't think it's perfect. If it were perfect, I'd be making far more money than I am now . It was created perfect, but free will, etc. There's been plenty of ink spilled on this already, so I don't feel like I have to go into detail here.

As I mentioned before, God didn't create imperfect people. But more importantly, there are a few mistakes here, and these two statements are closely connected. It is indeed true that Christianity holds belief more highly than actions? Why is that? Because Christianity teaches that all of us would be condemned if we were judged by our actions. But it's not really true that it's through belief that we are saved, not if by belief you mean "Intellectual assent to a proposition". As James writes "You believe that there is one God - Good! Even the demons believe that, and shudder." When the scripture talks about believing in God and Jesus, it means far more to trust in them than anything else. What does this mean? Well, it means that anyone who is in hell is there by their own choice. If they were to turn to God for salvation, they would be saved.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

hypnotic4502

@asaris
imo man is prone to myths and tall tales to try and explain things he cant,also to control people by claiming that these ideas are directly from god.
its been going on as long as time has existed,with the greeks,the aztecs,and the mayans are just a few prime examples.
there's nothing devine about setting up a system to control people based on contrived miracles and stories.

concerning free will god punishes us or rewards us based on our actions.also,god is all-knowing(and all-powerful,for what it's worth).So God already knows how we're going to act.therefore,we don't really have free will,since God has pre-determined our choices.therefore,it is wrong for God to punish us for bad choices.
there is no way he could punish us for making bad decisions that he knew millenia before we were born that we would be making.(although the bible teaches that he does)

your speaking of demons makes me laugh,sorry but thats a really outdated term imo.satan is nothing more than a fictional scape goat for individuals not wanting to take responsibility for their own irresponsible behavior.

for what its worth,i dont believe in satan,goblins,angels,santa claus or anything on that level.........i quickly grew out of that.

__________________
Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
-Isaac Asimov

asaris

I've mentioned this before, and I'll mention this again, but statements like this are unhelpful and extremely condescending. There are certainly people who lose their faith as they grow up, but then again, there are people who come to faith as they grow up. To say one or the other stance is more 'mature' than the other, without offering any evidence for the claim, is just dumb. I'd respond to the rest of your post, but I didn't see any arguments, so it's not really worth my time.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

hypnotic4502

i never said i was more mature,i just stated that i quickly grew out of my desire to believe in fictional characters.if you believe in angels and satan,why not stretch it to include goblins and pink unicorns?speaking of proof if you believe in angels please show me your evidence,otherwise i will find your perspective flawed to the extreme.

most people are born in to their religion,taking up what their family has believed in for years without questioning and forced fed dogma at an early age,although there are some people that arent.they are in the minority though

__________________
Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
-Isaac Asimov

RusCrimson

Most theologians have held that the will of God is immutable (entirely unchangeable). First, it is worth noting that to change one's mind is one thing, and to want certain things to change is an entirely different matter.

On the other hand, I would have changed my mind if I wanted what before I had not; or cease to will what I had willed before. However, this only happens if I have either a change in my knowledge or in myself. If I know that eating something is bad for me, I no longer want to eat it. Similarly, I want to eat, and then when I'm done I don't want to eat. In either case, something changed in me.

But since God knows everything, and he (assumedly) isn't changeable, then neither of these applies.

RusCrimson

Saying that an individual needs a certain set of beliefs to get into heaven needs a bit of nuance to it. Although according to Christians Baptism is necessary for salvation, that does not mean a ritual in a church is necessary. Perhaps the best example is that of the good thief in the Gospel, who reforms his life. These actions are what brings the person to God.