C4 Diesel

This is aimed at people with monotheistic religious beliefs. Myself being nonreligious, I won't answer, but I am very curious as to what you all will have to say.

Do you think god can change his mind? If he could, would he do so, or in his inherent perfection would he already have his mind made up for the rest of time, regardless of the happenings of the physical universe (or does he already know these and exist in all times at once)?

Your thoughts, please...

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tecoyah

Didnt vote either but......She's a woman....of course she can change her mind....hell she does it all the freakin time.

*excuse me...gotta go rearange the Pews*

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Phage

Of course this discussion is very dependent on what you believe the nature of God really is. I am going with the traditional Christian viewpoint.

He could change his mind (omnipotent) but would not need to (omniscient). Because God exists outside of time there is no need for linear decision making; just look at time from start to stop and make a plan/opinion for everything.

Daoust

The Judeo-Christian God, or God, changed his mind based on the pleadings and intercessions of His followers. For example in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, God wasn't going to destroy the city if there could be found a certain number of righteous men. But Lot pleaded with God and it ended up that God only asked for a couple righteous people in the city for it to be spared.

I'm sure there is another instance where men have pleaded with God and God agreed to relent on his judgment. I just don't have the reference handy.

I don't know if those examples fit with what's being discussed here. I think it shows God changing his mind. It doesn't mean that God isn't all knowing or all powerful, but I think that rather it reaffirms his omnipotence and omniscience.

Of course, both of these examples are from the Bible, which is proven as a historically, scientifically, and geographically acurate text, but I'm sure there are lots of people who will disregard my examples seeing as I used that text.

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asaris

The problem is, there's very good evidence in the Bible for both Phage and Daoust's points of view. If pressed, I'll say God doesn't change his mind, it just looks like it. Take Hezekiah, whom God was going to kill until Isaiah prayed to God to extend his life. If I have to, I'll explain it by saying that God always knew Isaiah was going to pray, and that He would, "in response", "change his mind". But I'd rather not take a firm view on this if I don't have to.

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C4 Diesel

Being that this is a purely religious discussion, I don't think it would be proper for someone to disregard religious texts as a means of information/debate.

Thanks for your input.

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martinguerre

i am agnostic on this...not because i don't care but as i think there is no way to know.

i have a suspicion that God can, and does change God's mind...but i would be terribly hard pressed to justify that assertion beyond saying i thought so.

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ranger

Can God change his mind?

Look at a platypus...

Hain

Yes, I would suspect that God can and does change Its mind. If we were created in Its image, well lots of us are pretty indecisive.

And I am one of those agnostic people that can accept that the universe could have been created in a laboratory in some other universe by high school aliens. The physics are there that show it's possible, not probably though, but possible nonetheless.

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MageB420666

Well, it depends on which of the powers two powers that god has as being the dominant power:

Omnipotence: Sure he can change his mind, he has the power to do anything.

Omniscience: No, he can't change his mind because he already knows everything, including his decisions and actions, there is no possible way for him to change his mind, because then he wouldn't have known what he was going to do and therefore wouldn't be omniscient.

I personally don't really have a belief on this, seeing as I have not found/discovered/created the spiritual viewpoint that fits me best, but since knowledge is power, omnipotence must then be based on omniscience, because you have to know everything to be able to change/affect everything, so god cannot change his mind, since his omnipotence is based on his omniscience.

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Phage

I don't know if the phrasing should be "cannot change his mind" but rather should be "has no reason to change". I think that the meshing of omniscience with free will creates certain situations where it only seems God changes his mind.

I always thought that omniscience was based on omnipotence, e.g. "I am all powerful. I want to know what is going on, and of course I can do that."

irateplatypus

what are you trying to say?

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MageB420666

For someone/something to be all powerful(be able to change and affect everything) you have to have knowledge of everything, you cannot directly change/effect something if you don't know, at least, that it is there(although you can indirectly effect it) and to be able to directly effect it in every way, you must know everything about it. And since omnipotence would include being able to directly effect anything/everything, all actions, thoughts, movements, existence, etc., you would have to know about them. But you do not have to be able to effect something to know about it. So you can be omniscient without being omnipotent, but to be omnipotent, you must be omniscient.

So to phrase that simply omnipotence is dependant on omniscience, but omniscience is independant of omnipotence.

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Willravel

Hahahahaha. That made me laugh out loud. I think the acronym is LOL.

I imagine God (or a benevolant, all powerful, all knowing supreme being) would have the foresight - in the truest sense of the word - not to make a mistake, therefore second guessing or correction would be unnecessary. BUT, it is not outside of His (or Her) abilities, as nothing is really outside of God's ability as far as we can understand.

ranger

To irate,

first, no offense

second, really look at a platypus. It has a beak and lays eggs... yet its a mammal...and it spends most of it's time underwater... wearing a fur coat... COME ON!
thats at least three

"Some say there is no Devil, only God when he drinks. If God drinks, do you think he gets stoned? Look at a platypus... I think you think he might!" - Robin Williams

Phage

And it is poisonous! What other mammals have poison?!

Phage

I do not think that you have shown that omnipotence is dependant on omniscience but rather that it is an ability inclusive to being omnipotent. God does not have to be omniscient in order to be omnipotent.

Of course, we are both looking at this from a slightly naive standpoint. There is a question that goes: "Can God make a stone so large that even he cannot lift it?" Of course this is a paradoxical question pitting an unstoppable force against an immovable object, and many people would say that it is unanswerable.

The answer is of course "Yes". The question is not really based around God making rocks, but around God's ability to alter reality and the rules of logic that go along with it. Omnipotence would allow God to both make a rock so large he could not lift it, and be able to lift that rock, without there being a contradiction.

Livia Regina

Yes he can change his mind because he is not omniscient. I don't think he is likely to change his mind or if he did, that we would know about it.

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Yakk

Lets start with an omnipotent omniscient being that exists outside of time.

Now, let's look at what 'change your mind' means. It means at one time, you made one decision, and at another time, you made another decision. This really doesn't make sense for a being beyond time.

To a being that exists outside of time, those two 'times' are no different than two 'places'. If a being makes one area hot and another cold, did that mean that being changed her mind?

If such a being was interested in interacting with time-bound beings such as ourselves, and it wanted the time-bound beings to understand, it might appear to behave (locally) in a way that appears time-bound.

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Killconey

As it has been stated earlier, there is evidence in the Bible that the Judeo-Christian God changes his mind. Does this conflict with his omniscience? I personally don't think it does, although it is hard to explain why. Just because you know you are going to change your mind, does that make the change any less real? Slightly reminds me of Minority Report, except their oracles were faulty.

The answer is of course "Yes". The question is not really based around God making rocks, but around God's ability to alter reality and the rules of logic that go along with it. Omnipotence would allow God to both make a rock so large he could not lift it, and be able to lift that rock, without there being a contradiction.[/QUOTE]

Makes my head spin just thinking about it.

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Janey

god is beyond gender. so there is no 'he' or 'she' viewpoint or question. god is also omniscient, so would not have to change a "mind". god is also omnipotent. therefore if a "mind" required\ to be changed, god could do it. but wouldn't have too....

Livia Regina

True. But due to various Western traditions, god is always referred to using the pronoun 'he.' One can't very well call god an 'it,' and saying 'god' all the time is tedious and redundant.

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irateplatypus

the old testament (particularly the mosaic books) are literally filled with instances in which God's appears to change his mind... for instance, in the genesis narrative about noah it clearly says that God was sorry that he had mad man (chapter 6). this indicates that God didn't fully know what to expect from his creation. however, the genesis narratives are very ancient... they seem to have a style separate from the books of law and prophets.

in the new testament the figure of Christ is portrayed as our advocate before the Holy Father. it seems that we would not need an advocate should God be unable to change his mind. i think this says that God's nature is unchanging... yet his mercy can be entreated. this isn't something the church touches on too often.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

wnker85

I have to go with the God knows all, so doesn't have to change his mind.

But, he knows what is going to happen and he does what he wants. But, us humans were the first beings created with choice. So, he knows what we are going to do, but he lets us make up our own mind. So, really we change our minds while God is constant.

FngKestrel

I thought that was the punchline to "Does God have a sense of humor?"

To add something meaningful (?) to the discussion, wouldn't God changing his/her/its mind be indicative of God being incorrect in some way? Doesn't the concept of a fallible God seem...strange?

Phage

Nope. Look at it this way; how can humans have free will if God's plan cannot be affected by humans? A recurring theme in the Bible is someone pleading the case of someone else who is clearly guilty of some transgression (e.g. Jesus), which allows forgiveness.

Free will requires that you be able to direct your own actions, and a plan that in unable to be affected would make that impossible. A lot of people have a hard time reconciling free will with omniscience, so I will give an example that contains all these points.

Suppose I am a parent, and there are two children under my care. One of the children has stolen a piece of candy, an action that requires punishment. Being at fault the child is not in a good position to request forgiveness. However, the second child steps forward and pleads the first's case pointing out that he is truly sorry and willing to make amends. With this I am able to "change my mind" and forgive the first child.

Note that I could have known all of those things with a certainty; the theft of the candy before it happened, the fact that the second child would plead the first's case, and my ultimate decision. Omniscience, a plan, and free will are not contradictory.

Cylvre

Uh-huh...

When was that, and where is this proof?

No really, that'd be an interesting read...

shesus

I am going to agree with George Carlin when he says that God couldn't be a woman because only a man could make a mess this big!

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shesus

I was thinking of the Old Testament too when pondering this question. Obviously, God was not happy with the world he made in the past. He flooded it to fix his 'mistakes'. Let me rephrase, human mistakes. Anyway, He did change his mind about the people that he created and decided to get rid of them. So I think that God can change his mind.

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RCAlyra2004

There is no question from Both Scripture and Philosopy that God can and will change his mind if he chooses.

Philosophy: Imageine a huge (Lotsa Squares) and complicated (Lotsa peices) chess game where each player can see 40 to 50 moves in to the future, depending on the choices the other player. (If player one moves his rook to Knight 5 ... well then I'll move this and this and this and this to win the game)

Knowing in advance what moves are available to you is not different than changing your mind depending on what the other guy chooses to do. In simple and clear language. I beleive that God knows the infinite variables, and "adjusts" depending on what we choose to do.

My father says that God adjusts things in order for us to learn from life... and he changes his mind about what is best for us depending on how we choose to live. He is able to use us in many different ways, we are not locked into life but can change and adapt and God will still use us.

From Scripture: Soddom and Gomorrah (already discussed, previous posts) and most interestingly, Jesus before his crucifiction:

He took Peter, James, and John with Him, and He began to be troubled and deeply distressed. Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch." He went a little farther, and fell on the ground, and prayed that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him. And He said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will." (Mark 16:33-13)

The presumption is that Christ being the son of God, knew the mind of God (lotsa scriptures back that up) and yet he thought to ask God to change his mind...

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Astrocloud

According to the Bible (OT) God changed His mind when he promised a miracle to King David. David sinned (murder and adultery) and God rescinded a miracle. Even though I posted that "I don't know" -if you are a hard core bible believer -there's your answer.

CSflim

Well as a nonbeliever the answer to such a question is irrelevant...

However; to me it seems that the answer must be no. If god is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent then god always knows what is the right thing to do, is always capable of doing that thing, and is compelled to do it. If he were to do otherwise it would surely be in contradiction to one of these three things?

Or perhaps you believe that god is not all three of these things?

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Phage

If you would read the above posts, you would see that the issue is more complicated than that. Before sinning God was going to give him a miracle, and after he sinned he was not worthy of it. Is that God changing his mind, or rather reacting to the decision of a human with free will?

It can be expected that God will do the right thing, but what if the right thing to do does not remain constant? A human being can change events, and in order to do the right thing God must do something different than what he would have done had that person not made those decisions. In order for free will to have any worth God cannot act preemptively according to sins that have not been made yet, but because he can see into the future he has already made judgements on everything that will happen.

I guess what it comes down to is that God does not change his mind, but will change his reactions in response to what we do. It is not a surprise to God, but prompts a change in actions.

Tophat665

Assuming for a second that God is external and personifiable (which is kind of a silly supposition, but for the sake of argument), of course God can change his mind. I have a historical argument and a theological argument.

Historically, the Jews were God's chosen people. If you accept that Christianity way God's way of chosing new people, then he changed his mind on the Jews. Then, of course, Christians did what people do with religion: Use it to repress, conquer and generally do things directly contrary to the tenets of that religion. So, when God changed his mind again and started up Islam, he used an assumed name. Now, personally, I am pretty sure that if there ever was a God, he changed his mind again and said to hell with the lot of you and left us with the mess we have at the moment, but there's also the argument that he changed his mind a third time and started the Mormon church, though maybe he was just f*cking with them.

Seriously, though, free will implies that humanity can do the unexpected. That being the case, a merciful god might be inclined to change his mind form time to time, particularly when the unexpected violates his dicta but fits his plan better than the expected actions. That would be the theological argument.

Of course, I know I can change my mind, and so can you, and, since we are all of us God, then that's another argument in favor. (It's flip, it's glib, but it's also pretty close to what I believe.)

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aintyoboyfriend

This reminds me of an old argument.

If God is all-powerful, can he create a boulder so large and heavy that even he cannot move it?

duck0987

I've often wondered this myself; since God is all-powerful and has set the future he would then know when someone is going to die. If this is true then what is the point of praying for someone who is has a life threatening disease to be healed? If god is going to take them then God will, prayer is irrelevant. If it takes prayer to call God's attention to a situation then this would seem to contradict God being Omnipresent.

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Sawfmonkey

Presumably, but I don't believe in God. However, I'm not saying he/she doesn't exist.

However...the devil wears a red dress.

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cybersharp

I think that "God" could do anything God wanted to.. Including having a change of mind.. Prehapes though as a supreme being it is somehow neccessary... But then that would be assuming.

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Phage

Honestly, I wonder why I even bother posting sometimes...

Astrocloud

Funny, when I change my mind -I am in fact reacting to something else at least 90% of the time.

If God changes His mind -does it only count if there is no reason for it?