"Christians" and the TFP - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Rekna · 02-08-2005, 10:48 PM

If you are wondering more on the topics discussed here read Romans chapters 1 and 2.

In chapter 1 Paul talks about the sinful, immoral men and women throughout time. It talks about how God gave them over into their sin so that through their sin they would recieve their due punishment. Then in chapter 2 it talks about not judging others because doing so makes us hypocrits. It is God's judgement not ours. God knows so much more about the circumstances than we do. Another interesting part of chapter 2 is the verse that says God will show no favortism.

cybersharp · 02-09-2005, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

See....this is where many Christians get the bad publicity. The above post pretty much tells alot of people they are going to someones Hell. I do of course realize the biblical statements that proclaim this as truth, but I simply cannot accept the requirements and be honest with myself.
I am going to be completely Candid here, and hope to avoid offending anyone with the following statement. I have tried many times in the past to have discussions about the condemnation of my soul do to my failure to accept Jesus as my savior. Through these discussions I have come to a conclusion I do not very much like, but will have to live with. It serves no further purpose to attempt to gain information from those Literal Christians who judge me........for they have no information left to give. I simply cannot accept that I am doomed to this Hell, because a book says so.
No, I am not angry or spiteful of those who deem me heathen......just dissapointed.

I was reading along the posts and yea this one caught my eye.. simply because It proves a very good point. Though all the posts I read where very good this one seems seems to be the opinion I lean towards... But yea I take scripture seriously.. I try to live as good as I can and not any better or worse.. I simply accept that I am not perfect but that I am not the worst and that I cant judge myself and neither can anyone else judge me in that way... So yea.. I refuse to beleive I am going to go to hell because a book say's so, or any person beleives that I am sinfull... At least I accept what I am instead of living a lie, which would be to me far worse..

asaris · 02-09-2005, 07:01 AM

Quote:

and yeah, it's Paul trying to settle a dispute. he would not have expected us to make it scripture.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this, martinguerre, but it seems clear that Paul assigns are greater authority to most of what he writes than merely just good advice from an Apostle. There is at least one passage (the one where he says it is better to be single than to be married) where he is at pains to say that this is just his opinion, not the word of the Lord. That implies that he thought that the rest of what he writes IS the word of the Lord.

In general, I'm skeptical of metaphorical interpretations of any part of the NT, not just the moral teachings, but especially those. It's just far too easy. I guess at the end of the day, I'll admit the possibility that they're metaphorical, but how many people reject the teaching first, and then try to explain why it's metaphorical, rather than vice versa?

Rekna · 02-09-2005, 10:44 AM

One thing a lot of people don't take into account is that Paul was chosen by Jesus. He was on the road to damascus when Jesus appeared to him and commanded him to do what he did. He makes this clear in the greating of every letter he writes. What he writes is more than just his opinnion (except where he states otherwise, as noted in the post above).

Lebell · 02-09-2005, 03:18 PM

While I agree that Saul/Paul was chosen by God, what I don't agree with is the automatic assumption that everything Paul wrote or said is in accordance with God's will.

In the end, Paul was still a fallable human being. He was also inextricably linked to Jewish tradition and viewpoints.

This is why I think, for example, that he comes out against homosexuality (that being a deadly sin to Jews not to have a male heir).

This is not "cafeteria Christianity", but an understanding of who said what and from what perspective.

ShaniFaye · 02-09-2005, 03:36 PM

Paul also had no use for women

Rekna · 02-09-2005, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

While I agree that Saul/Paul was chosen by God, what I don't agree with is the automatic assumption that everything Paul wrote or said is in accordance with God's will.

In the end, Paul was still a fallable human being. He was also inextricably linked to Jewish tradition and viewpoints.

This is why I think, for example, that he comes out against homosexuality (that being a deadly sin to Jews not to have a male heir).

This is not "cafeteria Christianity", but an understanding of who said what and from what perspective.

I guess then it comes down to did Paul prophesize or was he just speaking for himself all the time. If he was prophesizing then the bible teaches us that everything he said must be truth or else he is a false prophet and comes from Satan.

martinguerre · 02-09-2005, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asaris

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this, martinguerre, but it seems clear that Paul assigns are greater authority to most of what he writes than merely just good advice from an Apostle.

That passage you cite...he's playing extra careful on an issue he can't solve. But i find no good evidence that Paul beleived his words to be scripture. He had no idea there would be a New Testament in any way shape or form.

His letters are impromtu, crisis theology. There is much to be learned from them. I preach from them regularly. I read them closely.

But i always keep in mind that he never intended them to be universal decrees.

PS: Shanifaye, i'm happy to tell you that you're mistaken. look at the parts of the letters where he thanks his benefactors. The church in corinth is run by pheobe, women are adressed as prophets, deacons, elders, and evangelizers. I think paul had a complicated relationship to women, but it is clear that he recognizes women as authorities, and they bail out his ministry more than once.

Lebell · 02-10-2005, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

I guess then it comes down to did Paul prophesize or was he just speaking for himself all the time. If he was prophesizing then the bible teaches us that everything he said must be truth or else he is a false prophet and comes from Satan.

I think that such a view ignores Paul's human nature as well being a little too black and white in my opinion.

Rekna · 02-10-2005, 04:25 PM

News flash, all prophets were and are human

Rekna · 02-10-2005, 07:54 PM

I guess I should clarify my possition on this a bit. We need to take what Paul says seriously, we cannot ask weather or not what he said is true or not. There are times where he makes opinions and he states them as such and there are other times he makes decrees. We should take those decrees seriously. One thing we do need to ask though is who are the decrees he made applicable to. Some things he said were meant to deal with a specific church and others were ment for the whole church not any one.

Lebell · 02-11-2005, 11:44 AM

Rekna,

Question: Do you think revelation still occurs?

Rekna · 02-11-2005, 03:40 PM

Yes definatly. Some people are blessed with the gift of prophecy, some are gifted with the gift of teaching, some are gifted with other things. There are verses directly related to that.

Do I think there is a single person on earth who speaks for God, ie a single prophet? No not at all. But I think God speaks to many different people for different reasons, in fact I have met a couple differnt people who claim to have the gift and they have some very convincing stories. Whether or not they are true i'm not sure but I don't see why they would lie to me considering they were gaining nothing from me and had nothing to gain by lieing.

asaris · 02-11-2005, 04:03 PM

I'm with Rekna on this, but I wanted to add that I would be very suspicious of, if not reject out of hand, any 'revelations' which contradicted accepted scripture.

Lebell · 02-11-2005, 04:34 PM

Rekna,

If all biblical revelation is by definition true, then how does one reconcile old testament revelation that tells the Israelites to slaughter their enemies with the teachings of Jesus who told us to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek?

Rekna · 02-11-2005, 08:58 PM

It's called the new testament that split the curtian of the church, abolishing the laws of the old testament allowing all to go to heaven through the grace of Jesus Christ. What was taught at the time of the old testament does not always apply to today. See about any letter from paul to a church in the new testament and you will see how paul specifically tells people to stop following the old laws as if they were laws. Because it is not the law that makes one righteous.

Lebell · 02-11-2005, 09:02 PM

Yet this directly contradicts what Jesus said:

Mt 5:17 - "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. "

martinguerre · 02-11-2005, 09:19 PM

*nods

you can call us "cafeteria christians" but the slur just hides the fact that any reading of the scripture will have to dismiss parts to accept others.

SecretMethod70 · 02-11-2005, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

*nods

you can call us "cafeteria christians" but the slur just hides the fact that any reading of the scripture will have to dismiss parts to accept others.

Yes and no. Reading scripture while remaining cogniscant of the situations in which they were written - including the fact that the Gospels were NOT written by their attributed authors and were also written to address specific communities - can enable one to read the scripture as a whole and glean a message from all parts of it. Just not a literal, black and white, or easy message.

Rekna · 02-12-2005, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

Yet this directly contradicts what Jesus said:

Mt 5:17 - "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. "

Why someone comes and what they do are completly different. Christ didn't come to abolish law, but to fulfil it because the law always pointed to christ not to the law but we as people took the law as a set of rules which said how we get to heaven. But Christ made it clear it is not the law or following of the law that saves us but instead it is by grace alone. This is repeated in the bible countless times. Over and over it is stated by grace not by works. By faith. Believe and be baptised. That is what saves us not any sort of fulfilment of the law. We do not earn our way into heave. No christian is better than the next, for all it takes to be a christian is to believe. So if one believer spends his life to helping others he is no better in heaven then the one who spends his life devoted to other things. But your reward for being devoted to others on earth comes on earth. He rewards us in our lives for being devoted to him. The laws of the OT are no longer laws but instead suggestions of what we should do. For a belief in Christ is all we need. unless you are suggesting Jesus was a liar.

Lebell · 02-12-2005, 04:29 PM

To the point (which you did not answer):

The fact remains that you said the laws of the old testament were abolished by the coming of the Christ, when this is NOT what He said. Indeed, Paul, who never knew the human Jesus, did make pronouncements on OT law, specifically that Gentile followers of Jesus did not have to follow it's provisions.

Later, there have been continued interpretations in the Western church on such things as homosexuality and usary. The former has retained it's "sinful" nature, while the later has not.

So we have continued interpretation or "revelation" if you will, on God's will, always using Jesus as our standard.

In this modern time, we now know that true homosexuality is NOT a "choice", but a biological trait...yet we call it sinful for people to act as God made them.

Again, going to the standard, What Would Jesus Do? Would he condemn two men (or women) who were in a committed, loving relationship or would he bless them? I and many other committed Christians believe it would be the latter.

So yes, I will say, without appology, that I think Paul was wrong in this particular. That doesn't subtract from who he was or what he did, but it testifies to the fact that God continues to reveal Him/Herself to us and that it is up to EACH generation to struggle to understand the Creator.

Lebell · 02-12-2005, 04:30 PM

Oh, and faith alone is not enough.

For without works, faith is dead.

martinguerre · 02-12-2005, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Yes and no.

i think we might agree more than is apparent. maybe not...let me know.

what i intend to say is that if you read part of the pseudo-Pauline letters, you would get the idea that women were not to teach.

if you read 2 corinthians, it's quite apparent that the teachings of women, namely Chloe’s, save Paul's entire ministry. had she not done so...and the church in Corinth had failed, Paul wouldn't have been remembered as an Apostle...for someone to tack a message of women's silence on to Paul's name.

See what i mean? It's not that i don't read 2 timothy. but i don't treat some parts of it as scripture, because a more reliable source, namely Paul, indicates by word and experience that such a command is not in keeping with the work of the Holy Spirit.

Rekna · 02-12-2005, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

Oh, and faith alone is not enough.

For without works, faith is dead.

Wow have you read the new testament? By grace you are saved not works. How many times is this repeated in the bible? The man who died on the cross next to Jesus had done no works, he was a sinner, a criminal. Yet Jesus said to him surely I will see you in paradise today.

Works is not what it is about. It is about grace. In the verse you are quoting Jesus is talking against the hypocritical Pharisaical legalism. Jesus fulfilled the law by giving it meaning. If Jesus did not free us from the law then he himself broke it by healing on Sundays, preaching to gentiles, not following dietary requirements, ect.

Works do not make us better in heaven. As a christian you are forbidden to even compare yourselfs to others in such a way because if you do so you have already had your reward. God wants us to be humble in what we do. We do works not because we have to but because we want to. It is our love for God that has us do works.

Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselfs, it is the gift of God -- not by works, which God prepared in advance for us to do"

Romans 4:1-5 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. What does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the ma who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Psalm 32:1-2 Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not count against him and in whose spirit is no deceit.

Galations 3:10-14 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who des these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becomeing a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on the tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to hAbraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Eph 2:5 It is by grace you have been saved.

I could probaby find a verse about Gods grace saving us not works in every chapter in the new testament if I had time or desire to do it.

Jesus said, I have come not for the righteous but for the sinners.

Look at the parabel of the talents. It is not the amount of work you do that get's you your reward. Or the parabel of the workers. It isn't how long you work, God made us a promise.

Jesus said "Believe and be baptised" in response to what must I do to be saved. He didn't say "Believe and go do all of these great works in my name"

SecretMethod70 · 02-12-2005, 11:44 PM

Funny, Rekna, he was actually paraphrasing the New Testament

James 2:20 "Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?"
or 2:26 "For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

Of course, none of these contradictions are really a problem if one doesn't try to take all of the bible literally. There is a consistant message throughout BOTH statements re: faith and works if you look beyond the words themselves.

If one simply has faith and does not seek to do (note, I said seek to do, not necessarily just do) good works, one's faith is dead (as "James" says to correct the misunderstanding of Paul's statements.) Paul's point is that one cannot just follow some rulebook of works and expect to find God while not having any faith, not that one needn't worry about doing good works merely because one HAS faith. The latter interpretation is that of the Christian slaveholders in America and I don't think it's difficult to see their hypocrisy.

Or, to take a bit from the Lutheran World Federation and Catholic Church's Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification,

Quote:

We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit. Since Christians struggle against sin their entire lives, this consequence of justification is also for them an obligation they must fulfill. Thus both Jesus and the apostolic Scriptures admonish Christians to bring forth the works of love.

No, the works themselves are not what grants one what we call heaven, but one cannot have faith without works, for it is dead.

Rekna · 02-13-2005, 07:16 AM

I disagree with not having faith without works. You can have faith without works. Faith gets you the reward in heaven, works bring you a reward here on earth.

I am not saying that christians should all be lazy and do no good works, no I think they should all do good works. But people need to realize that God's grace is a gift, and if you have to work for a gift it is no longer a gift.

tecoyah · 02-13-2005, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

I disagree with not having faith without works. You can have faith without works. Faith gets you the reward in heaven, works bring you a reward here on earth.

I am not saying that christians should all be lazy and do no good works, no I think they should all do good works. But people need to realize that God's grace is a gift, and if you have to work for a gift it is no longer a gift.

This is a truly interesting interpretation. I am intrigued as to the implications for those with "Faith" who decide to ignore other aspects of biblical teachings. This understanding sets the stage for much of what we see in the current incarnation of Christianity as a whole (at least the version predominant in non-christian minds). The lack of compassionate works by the leadership we see in the church, is reflected in this disregard for many who decide to take a different path. I personally find the " Holier than thou" attitude quite degrading to those of a different belief, and thus have taken the path I am currently on.
I do know quite a few of the faith that interpret this part of scripture in a more benign way, and find them much more pleasant to associate with. Perhaps this is one of the underlying misunderstandings between Christians and the rest of us......or perhaps it goes far deeper.

Rekna · 02-13-2005, 08:04 AM

The holier than thou additude is definatly not christian. Christians are to be humble in all aspects of their life. Humbly love your wives, humbly love your neighbors, humbly love your enemies. Just be humble.

Now to further explain my position.

Salvation is a gift, and nothing short of a gift. There is no legalism to get into heaven, we just need to accept Gods love. See Galations for talk on legalism of the church.

Works are not what is required to get into heaven, but God does want us to do good works, it pleases him. God's love is unconditional ours is not. God chooses to love us even when we don't love him. But when we truely love God we will do good works because who doesn't want to please those they love? Strong faith will produce good works but in no way is it required. If works are still required did Jesus die for nothing? He died so we could be forgiven, he died so we could be saved. In his death he saved every one who believes in him.

Now to the verse mentioned earlier James 2:14-16 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action is dead.

What was James saying here? Was he saying we need faith and works? If it does say that doesn't this directly contradict what Paul taught? Before I answer that lets look a little bit at the history of the bible. When Martian Luther split from the church creating the beginning of protestant churches he recompiled the bible (notice the catholic bible is different than the one everyone else uses). James was almost cut from the bible because it seemed to be a direct contradiction to what Paul taught. But through studying it closer they decided it wasn't a contradiction and kept it. So what is James saying here.

Here is what my study bible says (NIV zondervan version) "faith" is not used in the sense of genuine, saving faith. Rather, it is demonic, useless, and dead. It is a mere intellectual acceptance of certian truths without trust in Christ as Savior. James is also not saying that a person is saved by works and not by genuine faith. Rather, he is saying, to use Martin Luther's words, that people are justified (declared righteous before God) by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. Genuine faith will produce good deeds, but only faith in Christ saves.

This is very simalar to what I am saying. We are saved by grace and grace alone. But those who have the strongest faiths will desire in their heart to do good works and will do them. But in the end it is not the works that are required, only the faith in God. So do good works because God desires it and so do our hearts. Live your life as a pillar so that you are salty and you make those around you thirsty. But never forget it is not you who gets you into heaven but only God. God is the only way to heaven we do not earn our way and cannot earn our way. None of us deserve heaven it is given to us freely. The second we start believing in ourselfs instead of God we have stopped being humble. And when we aren't humble God will make us humble.

tecoyah · 02-13-2005, 08:13 AM

Obviously.....you are correct.

And I am ...heh.....Humbled.

been here....done this.....dont wish to do it again

martinguerre · 02-13-2005, 09:45 AM

rekna, do attend to the quote SMethod posted. it directly goes to the question of faith/works, and challenges your reading of the text.

not to mention, you're also dropping Lebell's comments on Matthew. Matthew 10:40 to 11 is a problem by your theology, and 5:17-20 is a real thorn.

I affirm a steadfast insistance on grace, that it is not human virture that brings salvation. but i hold that grace is the starting note of a new relationship between God and the human. As we continue to recieve grace (charis) how else would we continue that relationship, but by action?

Rekna · 02-13-2005, 11:05 AM

Martin I did address those quotes in my last posts. Reread them I talked directly about them. Grace is from love. God's love is unconditional. Works come out of love for God, love from God does not come from works.

Jesus came not to abolish the law but fulfil it. He did exactly what he said he fulfilled it. He fulfilled the law for us so that we would not have to.

Questions for those of you who think works are a requirement to get into heaven. Do you believe we are saved by God's grace? Is God's grace a gift? Do you work for a gift, or is it mearly given? If we have to work for salvation how much is enough? Do we have a checklist that we have to accomplish? Is there some scale we are weighed against that we must all pass? Isn't this legalism? Why did Jesus die for us if it was the law that we need and not grace?

Christianity needs to start with the knowledge that God loves you unconditionally. That your salvation is a gift and nothing you do can cause you to loose that or gain it. Because you beleive you will be saved. That is for the young christians. Then when you grow and start eating solid food you then learn about doing good for others. Being salty in your life so that you make those around you thirsty for god. You bring god to others through the way you live. Works bring glory to god and should not be just cast aside but the second we use works to justify our salvation we have taken away from god. We have taken the salvation out of God's hands and into our own. I'm sorry but I don't trust man enough to let them hold the key to salvation. I only trust in God.

Rekna · 02-13-2005, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

Obviously.....you are correct.

And I am ...heh.....Humbled.

been here....done this.....dont wish to do it again

you shouldn't take this possition either. (I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not but either way they are bad positions).

As childern of God we must always be willing to learn even as we teach others. We will never know all of God's intentions until we are in heaven. This is where being humble comes in.

So if you aren't sarcastic don't take everything I say as truth alone. Go to the bible and pray. It is God's wisdom that we need to seek not mans.

If you were sarcastic you should be willing to listen to others because we will never know the full truth and we can learn things from our fellow man. Just remember what I said right before this.

Rekna · 02-13-2005, 12:16 PM

edit - wrong thread

Lebell · 02-13-2005, 01:49 PM

Rekna,

Obviously I have read the new testament, so I take your comment rather as an insult.

That aside, SM thoughtfully provided the scripture I was paraphrasing and I stand by it. Your Bible's interpretation aside, I really don't disagree with you when you say that trust/faith in God is what gets salvation, but I can't disagree more when you say that good works are "not necessary".

Still, let me rephrase in an attempt to come to an understanding.

Quote:

Matthew 25:31-46

31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

In otherwords, a faith that does not result in doing good works is not a faith at all, it is meerly empty words, "Lord, Lord!"

That is not to say that works are the key or the reason for God's grace. We are in complete agreement that God's love and grace are freely given gifts that we only need accept even as we cannot earn them.

Yet I believe in a way they are are requirement, even as it is written in James.

In a funny way, it's all very Tao

Rekna · 02-13-2005, 02:07 PM

Were just going to have to respectfully disagree. I know exactly what your saying about doing works and I'm not trying to say works or bad or take them away in anyway. I'm not trying to discurage doing works, no I want everyone do to works. I want people to glorify God by the way they live. But as you said it is a gift and we need to remember that it is a gift, a gift is not something you earn.

For anyone who is a true christian and doesn't do works I feel sorry for them because they are missing out on all of the glory God has planned for them on earth. But at the same time I'm going to love them and rejoice that I will see them in eterinity for they are my brothers and my sisters.

martinguerre · 02-13-2005, 02:07 PM

another way of looking at it, is what is faith in God? we can't naturually be good at it, and we waver and doubt even after we think we've made up our mind.

so does our salvation waver, too? if it is *our* faith that saves us, i'm a bit worried.

translating romans, scholars are moving to rendering "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ* for all who believe" Rom 3:22 as:

"the righteousness of God through the faith *of* Jesus Christ"

I think this might be more to the point. Otherwise, that faith thing just becomes another legalism...a way of trying hard enough outside of a real relationship.

just a thought...

martinguerre · 02-13-2005, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

Were just going to have to respectfully disagree.

If you plan on that, i personally think you owe Lebell an apology for your previous choice of words.

Rekna · 02-15-2005, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

If you plan on that, i personally think you owe Lebell an apology for your previous choice of words.

You are right, I have been sitting on this a few days now letting my pride not let me post. Above I stated be humble but yet I have not been humble. God has corrected me on this one big time.

So Lebell, i'm sorry I used insultary language twoard you. We are all brothers in Christ, while we may disagree on all the details we have the most important one in common. Let us not forget that.

hambone · 02-15-2005, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

So Lebell, i'm sorry I used insultary language twoard you. We are all brothers in Christ, while we may disagree on all the details we have the most important one in common. Let us not forget that.

I have been watching this thread for a while and this is the best post in it. Of course we all have differences. And yes, we should share them with others. Slamming another's beliefs won't get us anywhere though.

I am a Christian as well and right now feel no need to state my position on the arguments going on here. Instead I will just say this: Christ called us to love one another and to love God. Be respectful. Be open. We could debate day about everything under the sun, but why cause divisions. We love the Lord, right? That makes us brothers and sisters. So thank you Rekna, for bringing this to an amicable solution.

I'm out...

martinguerre · 02-15-2005, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

You are right, I have been sitting on this a few days now letting my pride not let me post. Above I stated be humble but yet I have not been humble. God has corrected me on this one big time.

So Lebell, i'm sorry I used insultary language twoard you. We are all brothers in Christ, while we may disagree on all the details we have the most important one in common. Let us not forget that.

Thank you...for an action both brave and just.

02-09-2005, 03:18 PM	#85 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	While I agree that Saul/Paul was chosen by God, what I don't agree with is the automatic assumption that everything Paul wrote or said is in accordance with God's will. In the end, Paul was still a fallable human being. He was also inextricably linked to Jewish tradition and viewpoints. This is why I think, for example, that he comes out against homosexuality (that being a deadly sin to Jews not to have a male heir). This is not "cafeteria Christianity", but an understanding of who said what and from what perspective. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! Last edited by Lebell; 02-09-2005 at 05:06 PM..

02-09-2005, 03:36 PM	#86 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Paul also had no use for women __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

02-11-2005, 11:44 AM	#92 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Rekna, Question: Do you think revelation still occurs? __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

02-11-2005, 04:03 PM	#94 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	I'm with Rekna on this, but I wanted to add that I would be very suspicious of, if not reject out of hand, any 'revelations' which contradicted accepted scripture. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

02-11-2005, 04:34 PM	#95 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Rekna, If all biblical revelation is by definition true, then how does one reconcile old testament revelation that tells the Israelites to slaughter their enemies with the teachings of Jesus who told us to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek? __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

02-08-2005, 10:48 PM	#81 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	If you are wondering more on the topics discussed here read Romans chapters 1 and 2. In chapter 1 Paul talks about the sinful, immoral men and women throughout time. It talks about how God gave them over into their sin so that through their sin they would recieve their due punishment. Then in chapter 2 it talks about not judging others because doing so makes us hypocrits. It is God's judgement not ours. God knows so much more about the circumstances than we do. Another interesting part of chapter 2 is the verse that says God will show no favortism.

02-09-2005, 10:44 AM	#84 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	One thing a lot of people don't take into account is that Paul was chosen by Jesus. He was on the road to damascus when Jesus appeared to him and commanded him to do what he did. He makes this clear in the greating of every letter he writes. What he writes is more than just his opinnion (except where he states otherwise, as noted in the post above).

02-10-2005, 04:25 PM	#90 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	News flash, all prophets were and are human

02-10-2005, 07:54 PM	#91 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	I guess I should clarify my possition on this a bit. We need to take what Paul says seriously, we cannot ask weather or not what he said is true or not. There are times where he makes opinions and he states them as such and there are other times he makes decrees. We should take those decrees seriously. One thing we do need to ask though is who are the decrees he made applicable to. Some things he said were meant to deal with a specific church and others were ment for the whole church not any one.

02-11-2005, 03:40 PM	#93 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Yes definatly. Some people are blessed with the gift of prophecy, some are gifted with the gift of teaching, some are gifted with other things. There are verses directly related to that. Do I think there is a single person on earth who speaks for God, ie a single prophet? No not at all. But I think God speaks to many different people for different reasons, in fact I have met a couple differnt people who claim to have the gift and they have some very convincing stories. Whether or not they are true i'm not sure but I don't see why they would lie to me considering they were gaining nothing from me and had nothing to gain by lieing.

02-11-2005, 08:58 PM	#96 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	It's called the new testament that split the curtian of the church, abolishing the laws of the old testament allowing all to go to heaven through the grace of Jesus Christ. What was taught at the time of the old testament does not always apply to today. See about any letter from paul to a church in the new testament and you will see how paul specifically tells people to stop following the old laws as if they were laws. Because it is not the law that makes one righteous.

02-11-2005, 09:02 PM	#97 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Yet this directly contradicts what Jesus said: Mt 5:17 - "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. " __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

02-11-2005, 09:19 PM	#98 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	*nods you can call us "cafeteria christians" but the slur just hides the fact that any reading of the scripture will have to dismiss parts to accept others. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

02-12-2005, 04:29 PM	#101 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	To the point (which you did not answer): The fact remains that you said the laws of the old testament were abolished by the coming of the Christ, when this is NOT what He said. Indeed, Paul, who never knew the human Jesus, did make pronouncements on OT law, specifically that Gentile followers of Jesus did not have to follow it's provisions. Later, there have been continued interpretations in the Western church on such things as homosexuality and usary. The former has retained it's "sinful" nature, while the later has not. So we have continued interpretation or "revelation" if you will, on God's will, always using Jesus as our standard. In this modern time, we now know that true homosexuality is NOT a "choice", but a biological trait...yet we call it sinful for people to act as God made them. Again, going to the standard, What Would Jesus Do? Would he condemn two men (or women) who were in a committed, loving relationship or would he bless them? I and many other committed Christians believe it would be the latter. So yes, I will say, without appology, that I think Paul was wrong in this particular. That doesn't subtract from who he was or what he did, but it testifies to the fact that God continues to reveal Him/Herself to us and that it is up to EACH generation to struggle to understand the Creator. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

02-12-2005, 04:30 PM	#102 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Oh, and faith alone is not enough. For without works, faith is dead. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

02-13-2005, 07:16 AM	#106 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	I disagree with not having faith without works. You can have faith without works. Faith gets you the reward in heaven, works bring you a reward here on earth. I am not saying that christians should all be lazy and do no good works, no I think they should all do good works. But people need to realize that God's grace is a gift, and if you have to work for a gift it is no longer a gift.

02-13-2005, 08:04 AM	#108 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	The holier than thou additude is definatly not christian. Christians are to be humble in all aspects of their life. Humbly love your wives, humbly love your neighbors, humbly love your enemies. Just be humble. Now to further explain my position. Salvation is a gift, and nothing short of a gift. There is no legalism to get into heaven, we just need to accept Gods love. See Galations for talk on legalism of the church. Works are not what is required to get into heaven, but God does want us to do good works, it pleases him. God's love is unconditional ours is not. God chooses to love us even when we don't love him. But when we truely love God we will do good works because who doesn't want to please those they love? Strong faith will produce good works but in no way is it required. If works are still required did Jesus die for nothing? He died so we could be forgiven, he died so we could be saved. In his death he saved every one who believes in him. Now to the verse mentioned earlier James 2:14-16 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action is dead. What was James saying here? Was he saying we need faith and works? If it does say that doesn't this directly contradict what Paul taught? Before I answer that lets look a little bit at the history of the bible. When Martian Luther split from the church creating the beginning of protestant churches he recompiled the bible (notice the catholic bible is different than the one everyone else uses). James was almost cut from the bible because it seemed to be a direct contradiction to what Paul taught. But through studying it closer they decided it wasn't a contradiction and kept it. So what is James saying here. Here is what my study bible says (NIV zondervan version) "faith" is not used in the sense of genuine, saving faith. Rather, it is demonic, useless, and dead. It is a mere intellectual acceptance of certian truths without trust in Christ as Savior. James is also not saying that a person is saved by works and not by genuine faith. Rather, he is saying, to use Martin Luther's words, that people are justified (declared righteous before God) by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. Genuine faith will produce good deeds, but only faith in Christ saves. This is very simalar to what I am saying. We are saved by grace and grace alone. But those who have the strongest faiths will desire in their heart to do good works and will do them. But in the end it is not the works that are required, only the faith in God. So do good works because God desires it and so do our hearts. Live your life as a pillar so that you are salty and you make those around you thirsty. But never forget it is not you who gets you into heaven but only God. God is the only way to heaven we do not earn our way and cannot earn our way. None of us deserve heaven it is given to us freely. The second we start believing in ourselfs instead of God we have stopped being humble. And when we aren't humble God will make us humble.

02-13-2005, 08:13 AM	#109 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Obviously.....you are correct. And I am ...heh.....Humbled. been here....done this.....dont wish to do it again __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

02-13-2005, 09:45 AM	#110 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	rekna, do attend to the quote SMethod posted. it directly goes to the question of faith/works, and challenges your reading of the text. not to mention, you're also dropping Lebell's comments on Matthew. Matthew 10:40 to 11 is a problem by your theology, and 5:17-20 is a real thorn. I affirm a steadfast insistance on grace, that it is not human virture that brings salvation. but i hold that grace is the starting note of a new relationship between God and the human. As we continue to recieve grace (charis) how else would we continue that relationship, but by action? __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

02-13-2005, 11:05 AM	#111 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Martin I did address those quotes in my last posts. Reread them I talked directly about them. Grace is from love. God's love is unconditional. Works come out of love for God, love from God does not come from works. Jesus came not to abolish the law but fulfil it. He did exactly what he said he fulfilled it. He fulfilled the law for us so that we would not have to. Questions for those of you who think works are a requirement to get into heaven. Do you believe we are saved by God's grace? Is God's grace a gift? Do you work for a gift, or is it mearly given? If we have to work for salvation how much is enough? Do we have a checklist that we have to accomplish? Is there some scale we are weighed against that we must all pass? Isn't this legalism? Why did Jesus die for us if it was the law that we need and not grace? Christianity needs to start with the knowledge that God loves you unconditionally. That your salvation is a gift and nothing you do can cause you to loose that or gain it. Because you beleive you will be saved. That is for the young christians. Then when you grow and start eating solid food you then learn about doing good for others. Being salty in your life so that you make those around you thirsty for god. You bring god to others through the way you live. Works bring glory to god and should not be just cast aside but the second we use works to justify our salvation we have taken away from god. We have taken the salvation out of God's hands and into our own. I'm sorry but I don't trust man enough to let them hold the key to salvation. I only trust in God.

02-13-2005, 12:16 PM	#113 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	edit - wrong thread

02-13-2005, 02:07 PM	#115 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Were just going to have to respectfully disagree. I know exactly what your saying about doing works and I'm not trying to say works or bad or take them away in anyway. I'm not trying to discurage doing works, no I want everyone do to works. I want people to glorify God by the way they live. But as you said it is a gift and we need to remember that it is a gift, a gift is not something you earn. For anyone who is a true christian and doesn't do works I feel sorry for them because they are missing out on all of the glory God has planned for them on earth. But at the same time I'm going to love them and rejoice that I will see them in eterinity for they are my brothers and my sisters.

02-13-2005, 02:07 PM	#116 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	another way of looking at it, is what is faith in God? we can't naturually be good at it, and we waver and doubt even after we think we've made up our mind. so does our salvation waver, too? if it is our faith that saves us, i'm a bit worried. translating romans, scholars are moving to rendering "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ* for all who believe" Rom 3:22 as: "the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ" I think this might be more to the point. Otherwise, that faith thing just becomes another legalism...a way of trying hard enough outside of a real relationship. just a thought... __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16