martinguerre

The UCC has a position affirming evolution...i'm pretty sure others do too.

A quick google, and i have this.

ELCA, UCC, Anglican, PC USA, Catholic, Methodist.

That's a pretty big chunk of the mainlines.

Personally, i'm baptist, and believe evolution to be the most compelling scientific explanation of how life originated on the planet.

Yes, but. Yes, the bible is clear that we have moral choices, and can be condemned on the basis of those. But. God is a God of grace and mercy. I have rebelled, but fallen short even in that. God's grace has been more than sufficient to bring me back to God. Even as i sin in this life, i am brought again to repentance and to healing mercy. The mercy, the grace has been wilder, freer, and greater than i had ever imagined.

I don't know the fate of souls. But i do know about the mercy, and if it is that mercy that cares for us at our last breath, then we have a whole lot to hope for.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Livia Regina

I think that if more Christians concentrated on this and less on "you don't believe Jesus Christ is the son of God so you are going to hell to burn for eternity" then the non-Christians would be more willing to listen and would be less hostile.

__________________
Rule 37: There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'

hoosier52

I wish I had all the answers, and to say it's a matter of faith isn't good enough either. By saying "God knows" I simply meant that I'm not going to be their judge and I wouldn't know how to judge someone that had never heard the gospel presented to them before. Unfortunately, you're not going to get answers that you can lay your hands on or can be seen or proven by some scientific experiment. Jesus said this to his disciple Thomas in John ch.20: "Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

For me, it started with being "born again" or "getting saved" which is christianese for accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. It seems to me that at that point, then we can except a lot of the harder to understand things as well. My recommendation is that you try talking to God yourself in seeking your answers. You may be surprised in that you start getting answers, although don't expect them to be audible or "Joan of Arcadia" style.

hoosier52

I agree 100% and the 3 best reasons to be a christian are mercy, grace and hope; with hope in all areas of my life being the no. 1 reason.

FailedEagle

Why am I a Christian?

I agree with a lot of comments on here and would like to add a couple.

First Why do I believe in God

1. The fact that I'm still alive is enough to make me know that there is something out there.

2. While evidence is still being compiled, last I checked the Bible has not been refuted once, nor do I find any errors in it. When was the last time you found a book that could never be disproven? A book that mostly written first hand? A book that has correctly told of things that were to come? (Granted that lies a little in the interpretation, yet I take the Bible as verbatium)

3. Everything in nature is too perfect to be a random coincidence.

Now as for my reasons for believing in Christ . . .

1. If you believe in God, then you alternatively must believe in Satan.

2. If Satan exists, there is a place for damned souls to go, known as hell.

3. Because hell is considered for those who want to lead a rightous life and a blessed afterlife, a place they want nothing to do with, they would prefer to live with God, our creator.

4. We know that only a "Sinless" person can get into heaven, since everyone sins, that would make heaven a lonely place.

5. God told us he was going to send a Messiah, a Saviour as it were, and then this babe in a manger was born named Jesus.

6. According to history, There is evidence that Jesus was a real person and did walk this earth. So to me that starts giving a bit of credibility to the story, and once you understand that Jesus was a real man, you must begin to look at the stories in the New Testament to see if they hold any weight.

7. Christ was born in the exact way that the old testiment required, being born of the lineage of David the King.

8. After prophesizing to his people and these things coming to pass, and performing miracles that weren't possible, feats such as feeding five thousand people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fishes, making the dead rise, walking on water, healing the sick . . . oh, and the whole resurrection of himself thing, we find that he is more than just a man.

9. When asked who he is, he claimed he was the Son of God, when asked what to do to get into heaven, he answered, Believe in me.

10. Knowing that, and the fact that he bore all of our sins with him on the cross, we can purge our sins through that faith in him.

That pretty much sums it up.

__________________
Head over to Nonsense to sign up for the newest round Of the Trivial Racing Image Game. Hurry.

Willravel

I am Christian because I choose to percieve signs as being in correlation with a higher being. I choose to see mericles - things that are clearly out of the ordinary - as acts of a much higher intelligence. I choose to believe that this higher being instilled morals and compassion in humans, but allowed humans the choice of whether to act out of compassion and moreals or not. I belive that the higher intelligence, God, loves His (or Her) creations, and holds us higher. Proof that He holds us above all else is our creativity, and the gift of compassion and morality. My morals and compassion coincide with the teachings of Jesus. Not the bible, but Jesus is why I am a Christian.

Of course I'm a Buddhist, too. Heh. Buddhist lifestyle with a nonspecific Christian faith.

BK1017

I am agnostic. I was raised Christian, I think Protestant though I'm not for sure. My parents forced me to go to church and sunday school every sunday, and it was always like pulling teeth with me. Now, I think that since my parents essentially forced something on me that I didn't want anything to do with, I am against it. However, I would like to believe that there is something out there, some higher power, that is omnipotent, omscient, and omnipresent protecting us, but I realize that this is probably unlikely.

Unlike many religions, I believe that all you need is yourself. You have the all the power and ability. You can rely on yourself and your fellow man for whatever you need.

If god truly exists and is all powerful, why does he let bad things happen? Why does he let bad things happen to good people?

Willravel

BK1017, interesting question. "If god truly exists and is all powerful, why does he let bad things happen? Why does he let bad things happen to good people?" (BTW, I realize you are using this question to show that Gods lack of a direct role makes it less likely that He either exists or cares)

I'll take a shot at that. Let's say you are a good person. Let's say you were raised in a good home with parents who loved you very much. Let's say you always had food on the table and clothes on your back. Let's say your parents instilled good values and morals in you, so you know right from wrong. Let's say you always show compassion and empathy.Let's say you are a good person.

Now take this person, and have him or her born in the South in the 1700s. Let's say they were born on a plantation. Let's say this person was raised to believe that black people are an inferrior species. Let's say this person was raised to hate black people. This person grows up and inherits the plantation and has his slaves beatnen regularly because he thinks it keeps them in mind.

My question is: what makes a good person a good person? Do you mean inate good? Is there even such a thing as inate goodness?

Imagine God did play a direct role in our lives, like He did in the bible. Let's say (I'm just going to keep saying "Let's say", so get used to it) he spoke to people and appeared to people and was a direct presence in our lives. Let's say he showed favor to those who are "good". Let's also say he prevents things like the tsunami. What kind of God would that be? We would all become intirely dependant on Him. We expect Him to save us from reality. The only problem is that isn't love. If God loves us, He will alow us freedom.

Think about how we treat children. In their infancy, we coddle them and keep them completly protected. We know that they do not have the ability to protect themselves, so we protect them. As they get older though, as their ability to deal with life grows, we allow them to be exposed to reality more and more. When children reach adulthood, they are basically released into the world to their own devises. Partents know that if you coddle your children forever, they never learn to deal with reality. God knows that if He coddles us, we'd never learn to live in reality. God made reality the way it is for a reason. We are expected to live our lives in this reality. Bad things happen to good people and bad people alike. It's not God's responsibility to save you from reality, it's your responsibility to live in it and deal with it.

That's not to say that God is completly absent from your life either. The trick for Him is to be present just so much that you think He might be there, but you don't know for sure.

Dbass

I just sort of elaborated on this in a previous post, but well, to be quite blunt with you all, I have found God in music, and there are a lot of composers, a lot of pieces (this is classical music, not praise band) that are really evident of godly influence. I have many problems with the Christian dogma, but I strongly believe that in composers like Bach, who wrote 52 cantatas (That's about 30 hours of music) that correspond to every Sunday of the Lutheran church year; Handel, who wrote The Messiah in 2 weeks while barely eating or sleeping; William Byrd, who wrote Latin religious pieces when works in that language were banned in England and were punishable by death...the list goes on, but I would consider those three instances the foundation of my Christianity.

nickynicole

I think it's interesting that alot of people have abandoned organized religion because of the crimes commited in it's name, but it's not as common to find people taking the same stance inregards to their nation. I guess it's much easier to renounce religion than to renounce citizenship. Just a thought.

Also, there are a few moments in history where Christianity was used used for good things. The Civil Rights Movement, for example, was deeply rooted in the church.

saltfish

Christian = Personal relationship with Jesus Christ

How many Christians can say that they have a personal relationship with Jesus?

How many are willing to follow his word through thick and thin?

Can you call yourself Christian if you don't follow Christ's teachings?

asaris

There's a tension in Christianity about this; some things in scripture indicate that Christians don't sin, some indicate that they do sin. Since I have pretty good empirical evidence that all Christians sin, my conclusion is that the passages indicating that all Christians do not sin need to be interpreted differently. You talk about this in the context of a 'personal relationship with Jesus Christ'. Fine, but that doesn't mean we don't sin. You have personal relationships, right? Do you never do something wrong to your friends?

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

mojodragon

I am pagan, and I'll try my best to tell you why. I was born and raised Southern Baptist. I was going along fine, until the hypocrisy of it all struck me. I realized that it was a case of "believe, just in case there is a God, so you don't go to Hell if you're wrong." I realized that I didn't truly believe, that I was just lying to myself and others. I went for a few years where I was agnostic. Meaning, I knew that something existed, but I didn't know what it was. I started looking into Wicca and Paganism in general, about the same time I started looking into several other religions. In Wicca, I found a religion that I can believe in. The great thing about it is that it is so eclectic. You can believe one aspect without believing another aspect, and nobody is going to call you a heathen (except christians). Personally, I strongly believe in Karma. This is otherwise known as the golden rule, except with a little more force behind it. Where the Golden Rule says "Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you", Karma says "I'm going to do unto you worse than you did unto others". This tends to keep you a little more in check, don't you think?

In my opinion, you have to discover your dieties for yourself, so that they really can be yours. Respect those that aren't yours, worship those that are. Eris is my Goddess. All Hail Discordia!

I'll try to sum up my beliefs about dieties, if I can. A long time ago, when people didn't understand their world, they witnessed all of the same types of forces that we see today. Mankind cannot live without understanding, though, we're too curious for that. So, we gave personalities to the forces in our world. These personalities became the early gods and goddesses. It became easier, when talking to others, to say "Artemis", than it was to say "the hunt, childbirth, and archery". Basically, the gods and goddesses manifested from early personifications.

Man made God in his image.

tecoyah

Merry Meet.......and you pretty much summed up my own history as well.
But I was raised Catholic.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

TawG

i like to think of myself as just plain old me. Labelling myself is pretty hard.
But if i had to, i guess i would say i was an antroposophist, only i dont agree with Steiners teachings on a bunch of things, more generally antroposophy is the closest thing i can come what is my "belief".

Oh, and i probably have to voice my opinion on these religious topics and threads here in the philosophy section, i dont think its aproriate. This is philosophy, not theosophy. Sure, it might be philosophy, but i dont think of it as philosophy once you start talking about the bible, satan, jesus and what not.

MageB420666

Sorry if this seems a little out of place in this thread, but i just felt I needed to put this here, maybe just to add a different perspective to the mix.

Ok, I've never been Christian and will never be Christian. I was raised as a Reform Jew. But now I'm not really that either. I am in the point of my life were I am trying to weigh the different ideas that are out there against my own thoughts and reasoning. So I will try to go through each of the different thought processes seperatly.

First, why I will never be a Christian. Christianity promotes the idea that we are not only not responsible for our own actions, but that others can take responsiblity for our actions and that other people's actions can be held against us. If we "sin" we can be absolved of all responsibility for that sin if we believe in Jesus and ask for forgiveness. Second, Jesus took responsibility for or "sins" upon himself. Lastly, we are held responsible for the original sin and are born in sin, two actions that we have nothing to do with. So I refuse to believe in a God that will hold other people actions and vices against me, if I'm gonna burn in hell for all eternity, I want it to be for something I did, not what others did.

Second, why I'm not really a Jew any more. This deals with a lot of the reasons that I don't really believe in a higher power right now. First is the size and complexity of the universe, if it was created just for us, then why have stars and galaxies that we cannot even see without massive radio telescopes? What is the point in having all that extra stuff out there that we're never going to reach? Next reason is just statistics, most people who say that the odds are so large against it happening that it couldn't, don't really understand how statistics work. Statistics are just a guideline, not a set rule, just because something has a one to a billion chance against it happening does not mean it can't happen or that it has to not happen a billion times before it happens, it could happen five times in a row. So I don't believe that a 250,000,000,000 to 1 against, statistic as meaning that life couldn't have happened just by chance, it just means that the majority of other planets in the universe aren't going to have life.

So if the universe wasn't created just for us, and there are numerous other species in the universe, then that rules out most of the major religions right there.

Now, for the reason that I'm having a dilemma, I just have a feeling that there is something(s) out there, I just can't decide whether I believe in one god/ddess, multiple gods/ddesses, or an energy field, or a cosmic balance sheet with 300% interest on debts. It is probably just a feeling that was instilled in me because I was raised with religion in my life, or it could be that/those deity/deities reaching out and letting me know, "Hey, we're here. Don't worry". I just wish that he/she/they would own up and let me know what is right, otherwise I'm likely to just say screw it all, I'll worry about it when I'm dead.

__________________
Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

Livia Regina

Theology is a branch of philosophy.

__________________
Rule 37: There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'

martinguerre

While i respect your observations, i do ask that you keep in mind that this describes some of the problems with a subset of Christian theology. Not only are there major theologies that do not include atonement, but there are also atonement theologies that do not promote ideas of original sin. I assume that's what you're talking about when you say that other people's mistakes are held against you?

Just as example, my theology sees the Cross not as Jesus taking on the guilt or wrath to save, but rather to subject God's self to the violence of human systems. In the ressurection, God proclaims forgiveness, and offers a radical reconciliation that overcomes our efforts of violence. We're all complicit in systems that exclude, and create inequity...but we are continually offered a chance to begin a relationship with God and bring about change in our lives.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Livia Regina

Why was the resurrection necessary then? God could have proclaimed forgiveness at any point unless some sort of restitution for man's sins was required. It was my understanding that this is why Jesus had to die for man's sins.

__________________
Rule 37: There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'

martinguerre

the Cross is the moment where our worst impulses towards violence....to use the state to keep order before justice...and the love of God meet.

if a giant booming voice comes down, and says "you're forgiven" it's not going to change much. i don't think we would have had any idea how serious the situation was, or how deeply God desires to rebuild God's relationship with us.

to show humankind the gravity of the situation, God subjected God's self to our violence. and in rising from death, God showed the fundamental emptiness of that violence. it does not solve problems. it does not create justice. it targets the innocent right along with the guitly.

but instead of wrath, or separation...what violence hopes to accomplish, God proclaims forgiveness. the atonement folks say, that if God just forgave everyone, it would be cheap...that it would make sin mean nothing. A being that is all powerful, but that is not offended by the acts of depraved violence that we as a species are wont to do is dangerously amoral. i agree...but where i disagree is that the way out isn't God taking divine wrath in our stead. it's God showing up in our lives, and when we chose to direct violence at God, God accepts it. but where we think the violence will remove what we aren't comfortable with...the call to accountability, the call to justice, the call to radical relationship, the call to give up privildge, the call to the kingdom of God...it doesn't. The ressurection is the denial of what we think is a natural consequence. God's power to love outshines our power to destroy.

We now know what happens. Now we have a choice. Do we believe in destruction? Or do we believe in love?

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Hain

Good thread Livia Regina. I saw this after I saw tecoyah's thread about who was Pagan. I was born and raised Catholic by my grandmother. My parents had various reasons that I shouldn't be raised as such. My grandmother's death was painful as anyones' is with cancer. Her death alone wasn't what made me question my faith and I don't think they need to be posted. But ask if you are curious.

Her death made mequestion my faith... I dropped being a good Catholic boy. I am not an atheist punk that preaches [haha pun intended] "God doesn't exist" because I know that he does. I simply do not let that affect me. Whether or not He exists does not have implications on my life.

However like some agnostics I tried to find the proof for myself that any one god exists or doesn't exist. I opened up to the other religions practiced in my community, emmersed myself in the beliefs of other faiths and life styles. The smart ass that I am, I box OTHER on applications for religions and put "Polytheistic Agnostic."

I am though very serious about this characterization. I am polytheistic, I believe in various parts of different religions. I know that there is no evidence and I disbelieve in the possibility of such evidence that proves or disproves the existance or validity of any God or religion. How can one be any better than another? Many people have faith in this one, why is it more powerful than another?

And what would practicing any religion do to change me? Not praising god does not change the fact that I am a good moral person, I always try to be patient with anyone and everyone, I keep myself honest with those around me, and most of all I help those that ask it. "Have you a mind to speak, I have an ear to listen." I won't let a force that has no presence in this life to change me to occupy my mind--He [God] affects me none.

Out of all the religions I have "sampled" (I have yet to find someone in my town that is Buddhist for I think I might agree with that one, the whole enlightened state deal is what I already trying to find for myself*) so far Pagan's have to be the coolest people. I don't know what it is about you [Pagans] your religion is in the #1 spot on my list.

*The reason I think that Buddhism is for me is because I believe that everyone has the power to become more than what they are. I think that humans should put more faith into themselves before some nondescript unseen being. Have faith in yourself before giving it away to something that may not even exist.
We have potential beyond anything we can imagine. I believe that anyone is capable of anything. And I make an effort each day to either accomplish something that I once couldn't do or thought was impossible for me to do. So each day, I try to learn something new or help someone else "become more than what they are." I am the optimist here that believes you can do it if you believe in it.

__________________

////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

ICER

Most of my family is Catholic. But my mother and father is Baptist. I was raised a Baptist.

I have from time to time questioned my religion. And each time the answer only brought me closer to my heavenly father

__________________
What's the difference between congress and a penitentiary?
One is filled with tax evaders, blackmailers and threats to society.
The other is for housing prisoners.
~~David Letterman