What I believe - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

DEI37 · 10-07-2004, 05:58 PM

I've been thinking about some of this stuff lately, and then saw the "Ignorant people suck" thread in General Discussion, and figured it was time to do a little something like this.

What you're going to get here is partly life story, part where I came from and how I got to where I am today, and a little bit of what I believe on a religious and lifestyle aspect. It's likely to be long, and some of you may not agree with what I say. It's NOT up for discussion. Honestly, I'd like to hear what some of YOU have to say on the matter. If it gets out of hand, I have NO problem getting a MOD to delete the thread, and do whatever they deem necessary. Without further ado...here we go.

I was born and raised in a godly home. We went to church every Sunday morning and Sunday evening, and most Wednesday evenings for prayer meeting. We did this for the first 18 years of my life, and then it became more up to me what I wanted to do. I mostly dropped Wednesday evenings, but not completely.

When I was four, I thought I'd understood what the Bible was, and who God was, and what He did on Calvary some 2000 years ago. Dad talked with me, and I prayed the little kid prayer that many of us have prayed. Problem is, I DIDN'T understand, and nothing really happened that day, except that I said some words. For a while, I thought that was it, and I was golden for Heaven. By the time I was fourteen or so, I knew better. Problem was, I also knew exactly who God was, what He'd done, and how to get to Heaven. Problem with THAT, was that everybody I knew figured I'd already been saved, and I didn't want to make anyone think less of me.

Fast forward to the summer of 1995. I was working at the camp that my dad taught college at during the school year...it was a camp during the summer months. For those interested, here's a link to the web site: www.nbbc.edu Anyways, they have evangelists in for a week at a time (NO, they are NOT like what you see on TV...not ONE little bit. I know many of these guys personally, and they are fired up about life and Jesus Christ in general...for real) and they preach nightly. I think it was a Tuesday night, June 25th, if I remember correctly, I just knew that I needed to take the step of faith I'd put off for so long. I gave my life to Christ that night, and I know 100% that I am on my way to Heaven. I also know that it is the only way to Heaven. Let me get off the pulpit, and we'll fast forward to a couple years ago.

Heather and I had moved to La Crosse, and she'd taken a teaching job at a church/school there. The pastors' wife was a control freak, and when Heather had our daughter, they wouldn't renew the contract for next year. Illegal, yes, but in our best interests, and we knew it. We moved from there to Dunbar, WI...where the camp/college is. Hadn't been there long, and I had a bicycle accident. Some of you may know about it. That's another LONG story there. I'll spare you for now.

During the stay in the hospital, we found out who, from the church, was really in it for us, and not to make themselves look good. Some were only there in a crowd, but made sure they were seen, others gave generously, in front of an audience. Those people weren't in it for the glory of God, but of themselves mostly. Others drove 100 miles one way, just to see me, only to find out that visiting hours were over...and NO ONE else, besides my family was around. Those are the keepers. I love those people dearly.

During the recovery, some of those people...the self glorifying ones...wanted to find out how I was doing, just to talk about it. Not too many people have had near death experiences up there. I cheated death for some reason. God had a hand in it, I'm sure. The church didn't do much for us...I was out of work for six months...and once I started to "look" better, most people lost interest in my condition...except for those blessed few. Dad still gets asked (since we no longer live up there) on occassion how I'm doing.

During that time frame, we realized that everything that we had been taught in church was a little odd. Why would God make everything to glorify Him, and then we're taught to NOT be selfish? Some things didn't make sense. We've started an alternative lifestyle that has been discussed some here, and there are others on here that partake in it as well...although not with us. We started swinging, which is contrary to a lot of what we were taught as kids. It's strengthened our marriage, though, and has been beneficial overall. We don't go to church much anymore, although lately, we have discussed it, in part because I do want our daughter to have a knowledge of God, who He is, what He did, and how we can get to Heaven.

Sometimes, it is difficult to justify the swinging lifestyle with church, but I know we're not the only ones to do it. We are not hurting anyone NOR ourselves. God is great, and has gotten us through some tough times.

I am currently at a loss for what else to write here, but I hope I've provoked some of you to soul search a little, and see what it is you're really living for. Feel free to ask questions of me, or anyone else.

wilbjammin · 10-07-2004, 07:23 PM

We all have challenges in our lives, and we all should find ways to confront them. I think yours is a good story of trying to find that place between the old and the new... finding that balance between deciding what is important for you, and what can and should be left behind. My views are way different than yours, but I think you illustrate an important point - we need determine for ourselves what we really want our lives to be about as <i>authentically as possible</i>. It is a life-long journey.

DEI37 · 10-12-2004, 03:39 AM

So, was it REALLY that boring, or does nobody care, and not want to think about who they are?

ShaniFaye · 10-12-2004, 04:04 AM

DEI37.....I can COMPLETELY see where you are coming from...

backstory.....was raised in a religious but not over bareingly so..church on sunday...my mother was the youth leader etc.

Was given the choice to decide for myself at 16 whether I wanted to go to church or not and decided nope I didnt, I had NO doubts about my belief in god...but the church the family was in just didnt seem "right"

Stayed out of church until I was almost 22 and met my first husband. He was church of god raised, there everytime the doors opened etc...I became VERY active in the church...I was on just about every "committee" or "ministry" there was (this was 1990-1999)

Fastforward to May 6th 1999(the thursday before mothers day if I remember the day right).....left work on a break to get a cup of coffee from McDonalds and was in a major accident on my way back..Thankfully nothing as bad as yours...but still close enuff to a death experience to me to make me think some. During this time NO ONE, not even the minister, called or came to see me....the closest I got was a message from my mother in law saying some of the women were miffed that I was going to be laid up an not able to decorate for the mothers day banquet that saturday at church.

Now I was one of the people that made sure that families of hospitalized people, or families that had lost loved ones etc had meals in their homes...had babysitters for their kids....had a chauffer if they couldnt drive....Did I have ANY one do that stuff for me? Nope not a one.

I did a lot of thinking laid up in the bed....I never got angry with god, how could I...I lived...I saw this as a human issue only....and it made me lose complete faith in organized religion.

As a lot of people who "almost die" do....I thought long and hard about my life..what did I do? I started a porn site, which I've talked about elsewhere here, and hubby and I went into an alternative lifestyle...we tried swinging...it wasnt for us...we opted for an open marriage and quite frankly had no problem reconciling it with our belief in god...I have ALWAYS been a person that could feel guilt 100 miles away and I had no doubt that because this was something he and I were doing TOGETHER..ie not running around behind each others backs...that it was OK and we werent gonna burn in hell for it (que in the people who think other wise...but I really dont care what those people think)

We'd had marital problmes and had talked etc...we decided to keep with the open marriage until one or the other of us decided it was time to get out, we had a business, we owned property, we had a child...1st and foremost though we were FRIENDS and still are...some of you know that he and I still live in the same house along with our S/O's and it works quite well for us..he and dave even hang out and do stuff when Im not able to and get along quite well...things are being settled and the divorce will be final in time for Dave and I to get married when we want to next year.

Anyway...my point DEI37 is that having been in your shoes, more or less, I applaud you for doing something for yourselves that works for you ...regardless of what the holy rollers think or say, and although I've never felt "bad" about what we were doing, or keeping my faith and belief in the god of my understanding, its nice to "meet" someone that is/has done the same thing.

DEI37 · 10-12-2004, 04:44 AM

Wowsers...that is interesting. Sounds like you dealt with a lot of the same things I did for sure. It's nice to see somone coming from a similiar standpoint, and ending up in similiar places.

I think it's interesting that you all still live in the same house. We've thought about a live-in girlfriend for us, but haven't found the right girl, yet. It's great that it's worked for you.

Good luck in your future endeavors, and I hope life treats you well from here on out.

ShaniFaye · 10-12-2004, 05:00 AM

well you have to keep in mind....we are only sharing the same living space because there is no "wierdness" to make us do other wise...and its much cheaper that way...they have their space, we have ours....its basically a "roomie" situation...We had debts to pay off that I didnt want to take into a new marriage and Dave is ina debt counseling program to pay his off...none of us saw the point in moving somewhere else and having to struggle when we could all co-exist and stay with the comfortable lifestyle we had become accustomed too...selfish? yes....but who cares it works for all of us, we arent hurting anyone.

1st hubby was 18 when I married him, I was 22, he's now 33 and Im 36 and the things we want out of a partner started changing in 1999...I still care for him and vice versa...but together we werent the people we wanted to be (just for the record in case anybody is wondering he and I have had no sexual relations or shared a bedroom in over 3 1/2 years)

thefictionweliv · 10-12-2004, 06:22 AM

I believe the modern day church is more detrimental to followers of God than it is benificial. Church is not a building or a place...if I was ever to find my way back to God I would be in a close fellowship with people I know and not a building of people that are fake. As everything is equal in your eyes, you may be doing this for solace in your life just as they may make donations or show public displays of chivalry for glory in their own lives. If anything not being in the church right now I would say you are the better of the two, they are displaying their hipocracy for all to see which may be more detrimental than anything to new followers, you are carrying out your actions and seem to be not pretending you are something you are not.

DEI37 · 10-13-2004, 04:45 AM

I don't know if I'd call it detrimental, but I would agree that the benefits aren't what they used to be. Church has become more tradition than anything in some places, and that's just NOT good.

MSD · 10-13-2004, 07:40 AM

Sounds like you're the type of person who prevents me from writing off religion completely. I'm glad that you've found your calling in life. As for me, almost everything I've experienced in regard to religion has just pushed me away from it and led me to figure out existence for myself.

DEI37 · 10-14-2004, 05:13 PM

I guess the strictly organized religion is what gets me in the worst way. I realize that there are guidelines, and in my case, I get those ideas from the Bible. As much as people would like to believe that the Bible doesn't relate to todays' society, I would respectfully disagree. I believe that God, in his sovereigness knew all, knows all, and will know all, and always has. The things in the Bible relate to us today, and it acts as the map to life. There HAS to be some give on many things, simply because it doesn't work for there NOT to be. On some things, there isn't much, if any give, and that's OK too. What I mean is simply, some things are black and white, and there is no grey area. Other things there is some grey area.

I don't know...I'm tired now, and am going to talk in circles.

10-07-2004, 05:58 PM	#1 (permalink)
DEI37 Go faster! Location: Wisconsin	What I believe I've been thinking about some of this stuff lately, and then saw the "Ignorant people suck" thread in General Discussion, and figured it was time to do a little something like this. What you're going to get here is partly life story, part where I came from and how I got to where I am today, and a little bit of what I believe on a religious and lifestyle aspect. It's likely to be long, and some of you may not agree with what I say. It's NOT up for discussion. Honestly, I'd like to hear what some of YOU have to say on the matter. If it gets out of hand, I have NO problem getting a MOD to delete the thread, and do whatever they deem necessary. Without further ado...here we go. I was born and raised in a godly home. We went to church every Sunday morning and Sunday evening, and most Wednesday evenings for prayer meeting. We did this for the first 18 years of my life, and then it became more up to me what I wanted to do. I mostly dropped Wednesday evenings, but not completely. When I was four, I thought I'd understood what the Bible was, and who God was, and what He did on Calvary some 2000 years ago. Dad talked with me, and I prayed the little kid prayer that many of us have prayed. Problem is, I DIDN'T understand, and nothing really happened that day, except that I said some words. For a while, I thought that was it, and I was golden for Heaven. By the time I was fourteen or so, I knew better. Problem was, I also knew exactly who God was, what He'd done, and how to get to Heaven. Problem with THAT, was that everybody I knew figured I'd already been saved, and I didn't want to make anyone think less of me. Fast forward to the summer of 1995. I was working at the camp that my dad taught college at during the school year...it was a camp during the summer months. For those interested, here's a link to the web site: www.nbbc.edu Anyways, they have evangelists in for a week at a time (NO, they are NOT like what you see on TV...not ONE little bit. I know many of these guys personally, and they are fired up about life and Jesus Christ in general...for real) and they preach nightly. I think it was a Tuesday night, June 25th, if I remember correctly, I just knew that I needed to take the step of faith I'd put off for so long. I gave my life to Christ that night, and I know 100% that I am on my way to Heaven. I also know that it is the only way to Heaven. Let me get off the pulpit, and we'll fast forward to a couple years ago. Heather and I had moved to La Crosse, and she'd taken a teaching job at a church/school there. The pastors' wife was a control freak, and when Heather had our daughter, they wouldn't renew the contract for next year. Illegal, yes, but in our best interests, and we knew it. We moved from there to Dunbar, WI...where the camp/college is. Hadn't been there long, and I had a bicycle accident. Some of you may know about it. That's another LONG story there. I'll spare you for now. During the stay in the hospital, we found out who, from the church, was really in it for us, and not to make themselves look good. Some were only there in a crowd, but made sure they were seen, others gave generously, in front of an audience. Those people weren't in it for the glory of God, but of themselves mostly. Others drove 100 miles one way, just to see me, only to find out that visiting hours were over...and NO ONE else, besides my family was around. Those are the keepers. I love those people dearly. During the recovery, some of those people...the self glorifying ones...wanted to find out how I was doing, just to talk about it. Not too many people have had near death experiences up there. I cheated death for some reason. God had a hand in it, I'm sure. The church didn't do much for us...I was out of work for six months...and once I started to "look" better, most people lost interest in my condition...except for those blessed few. Dad still gets asked (since we no longer live up there) on occassion how I'm doing. During that time frame, we realized that everything that we had been taught in church was a little odd. Why would God make everything to glorify Him, and then we're taught to NOT be selfish? Some things didn't make sense. We've started an alternative lifestyle that has been discussed some here, and there are others on here that partake in it as well...although not with us. We started swinging, which is contrary to a lot of what we were taught as kids. It's strengthened our marriage, though, and has been beneficial overall. We don't go to church much anymore, although lately, we have discussed it, in part because I do want our daughter to have a knowledge of God, who He is, what He did, and how we can get to Heaven. Sometimes, it is difficult to justify the swinging lifestyle with church, but I know we're not the only ones to do it. We are not hurting anyone NOR ourselves. God is great, and has gotten us through some tough times. I am currently at a loss for what else to write here, but I hope I've provoked some of you to soul search a little, and see what it is you're really living for. Feel free to ask questions of me, or anyone else. __________________ Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

10-07-2004, 07:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
wilbjammin * * *	We all have challenges in our lives, and we all should find ways to confront them. I think yours is a good story of trying to find that place between the old and the new... finding that balance between deciding what is important for you, and what can and should be left behind. My views are way different than yours, but I think you illustrate an important point - we need determine for ourselves what we really want our lives to be about as <i>authentically as possible</i>. It is a life-long journey. __________________ Innominate.

10-12-2004, 03:39 AM	#3 (permalink)
DEI37 Go faster! Location: Wisconsin	So, was it REALLY that boring, or does nobody care, and not want to think about who they are? __________________ Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

10-12-2004, 04:04 AM	#4 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	DEI37.....I can COMPLETELY see where you are coming from... backstory.....was raised in a religious but not over bareingly so..church on sunday...my mother was the youth leader etc. Was given the choice to decide for myself at 16 whether I wanted to go to church or not and decided nope I didnt, I had NO doubts about my belief in god...but the church the family was in just didnt seem "right" Stayed out of church until I was almost 22 and met my first husband. He was church of god raised, there everytime the doors opened etc...I became VERY active in the church...I was on just about every "committee" or "ministry" there was (this was 1990-1999) Fastforward to May 6th 1999(the thursday before mothers day if I remember the day right).....left work on a break to get a cup of coffee from McDonalds and was in a major accident on my way back..Thankfully nothing as bad as yours...but still close enuff to a death experience to me to make me think some. During this time NO ONE, not even the minister, called or came to see me....the closest I got was a message from my mother in law saying some of the women were miffed that I was going to be laid up an not able to decorate for the mothers day banquet that saturday at church. Now I was one of the people that made sure that families of hospitalized people, or families that had lost loved ones etc had meals in their homes...had babysitters for their kids....had a chauffer if they couldnt drive....Did I have ANY one do that stuff for me? Nope not a one. I did a lot of thinking laid up in the bed....I never got angry with god, how could I...I lived...I saw this as a human issue only....and it made me lose complete faith in organized religion. As a lot of people who "almost die" do....I thought long and hard about my life..what did I do? I started a porn site, which I've talked about elsewhere here, and hubby and I went into an alternative lifestyle...we tried swinging...it wasnt for us...we opted for an open marriage and quite frankly had no problem reconciling it with our belief in god...I have ALWAYS been a person that could feel guilt 100 miles away and I had no doubt that because this was something he and I were doing TOGETHER..ie not running around behind each others backs...that it was OK and we werent gonna burn in hell for it (que in the people who think other wise...but I really dont care what those people think) We'd had marital problmes and had talked etc...we decided to keep with the open marriage until one or the other of us decided it was time to get out, we had a business, we owned property, we had a child...1st and foremost though we were FRIENDS and still are...some of you know that he and I still live in the same house along with our S/O's and it works quite well for us..he and dave even hang out and do stuff when Im not able to and get along quite well...things are being settled and the divorce will be final in time for Dave and I to get married when we want to next year. Anyway...my point DEI37 is that having been in your shoes, more or less, I applaud you for doing something for yourselves that works for you ...regardless of what the holy rollers think or say, and although I've never felt "bad" about what we were doing, or keeping my faith and belief in the god of my understanding, its nice to "meet" someone that is/has done the same thing. __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

10-12-2004, 04:44 AM	#5 (permalink)
DEI37 Go faster! Location: Wisconsin	Wowsers...that is interesting. Sounds like you dealt with a lot of the same things I did for sure. It's nice to see somone coming from a similiar standpoint, and ending up in similiar places. I think it's interesting that you all still live in the same house. We've thought about a live-in girlfriend for us, but haven't found the right girl, yet. It's great that it's worked for you. Good luck in your future endeavors, and I hope life treats you well from here on out. __________________ Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

10-12-2004, 05:00 AM	#6 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	well you have to keep in mind....we are only sharing the same living space because there is no "wierdness" to make us do other wise...and its much cheaper that way...they have their space, we have ours....its basically a "roomie" situation...We had debts to pay off that I didnt want to take into a new marriage and Dave is ina debt counseling program to pay his off...none of us saw the point in moving somewhere else and having to struggle when we could all co-exist and stay with the comfortable lifestyle we had become accustomed too...selfish? yes....but who cares it works for all of us, we arent hurting anyone. 1st hubby was 18 when I married him, I was 22, he's now 33 and Im 36 and the things we want out of a partner started changing in 1999...I still care for him and vice versa...but together we werent the people we wanted to be (just for the record in case anybody is wondering he and I have had no sexual relations or shared a bedroom in over 3 1/2 years) __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

10-12-2004, 06:22 AM	#7 (permalink)
thefictionweliv Insane	I believe the modern day church is more detrimental to followers of God than it is benificial. Church is not a building or a place...if I was ever to find my way back to God I would be in a close fellowship with people I know and not a building of people that are fake. As everything is equal in your eyes, you may be doing this for solace in your life just as they may make donations or show public displays of chivalry for glory in their own lives. If anything not being in the church right now I would say you are the better of the two, they are displaying their hipocracy for all to see which may be more detrimental than anything to new followers, you are carrying out your actions and seem to be not pretending you are something you are not.

10-13-2004, 04:45 AM	#8 (permalink)
DEI37 Go faster! Location: Wisconsin	I don't know if I'd call it detrimental, but I would agree that the benefits aren't what they used to be. Church has become more tradition than anything in some places, and that's just NOT good. __________________ Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

10-13-2004, 07:40 AM	#9 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Sounds like you're the type of person who prevents me from writing off religion completely. I'm glad that you've found your calling in life. As for me, almost everything I've experienced in regard to religion has just pushed me away from it and led me to figure out existence for myself.

10-14-2004, 05:13 PM	#10 (permalink)
DEI37 Go faster! Location: Wisconsin	I guess the strictly organized religion is what gets me in the worst way. I realize that there are guidelines, and in my case, I get those ideas from the Bible. As much as people would like to believe that the Bible doesn't relate to todays' society, I would respectfully disagree. I believe that God, in his sovereigness knew all, knows all, and will know all, and always has. The things in the Bible relate to us today, and it acts as the map to life. There HAS to be some give on many things, simply because it doesn't work for there NOT to be. On some things, there isn't much, if any give, and that's OK too. What I mean is simply, some things are black and white, and there is no grey area. Other things there is some grey area. I don't know...I'm tired now, and am going to talk in circles. __________________ Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.