theusername

I was raised Jewish and I have a miniscule amount of knowledge about him, I really wish I would have been taught just about the man because regardless of my faith he is the most influential person ever to live.

Anyways here goes...

If Jesus was the messiah, why is there no heaven on Earth after his arrival?

Why's there a gap about his whereabouts from the time he was 12 to his 30's?

How can you be sure the Gospels told the story accurately?

How exactly did he heal and give back life? Could he just have been performing CPR and first aid?

Did Jesus himself claim he was the Messiah? Also the Jewish faith teaches we are all sons of God, what makes him THE son?

I dont mean to cause offense to anyone and any input is appreciated.

Mojo_PeiPei

12-30 Jesus was probably scared shitless and most likely becoming aware of what was ahead of him. Not to mention that his missions hadn't begun and he was for all intents and purposes your average Joe Sixpack.

Most of your questions are issues of faith. I have faith in God and realize him as something greater than me and something I can't define or understand... I would not put it past him to become flesh and heal people.

Jesus did claim he was the Messiah. He is quoted as calling himself the Son of Man and in condemning himself "I am He".

I'm not to sure what your heaven on earth question refers to. Our reality is a seperate plane of existence from the Divine.

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Lebell

I'll give it a go with the caveaut that these are the views of a fairly liberal ex-Catholic, now Episcopalian who's made it a hobby to study world religions...

Ah, good question!

So the "kingdom" is obviously something else. To me, it is what is inside of me, what I carry around. The flip side of this is that some people carry their own hell around with them. Many people know someone like this, but they tend to ignore the former, unless he/she becomes very far advanced along their spiritual path, people like the Dalai Lama, Oscar Romero, Mother Teresa, Deitrich Bonhoeffer, etc.

This theme is common in many religions, which to me at least, adds to it's veracity.

Well, if you are a Kevin Smith/Dogma fan, it's because the churches hid the material because it was embarassing.

But conspiracy theories aside, no one knows. We can guess though. Perhaps it is as simple as that there is nothing to report. Remember that the Gospels were written down years after the fact, from memories and stories that the followers of Jesus told to each other.

Well, you can be a strict literalist and have the reason be because God wrote the stories through the writers, or, like me, you can rely on modern Biblical scholarship.

You might enjoy a book called, "Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time", by Dr. Marcus Borg, who is also an active member of the Jesus Seminar. The Jesus Seminar (TJS) spends much of it's time debating this very question with some interesting answers.

Another book I've recommended before is by Bishop John Spong, "Liberating the Gospels : Reading the Bible with Jewish Eyes". The main premise of this book being that the way the ancient Hebrews told stories was NOT the way Westerners do today.


Again, no one knows.

Some have suggested that the miracles of Jesus could be explained in other ways, such as the feeding of the 5000 being really a story about sharing food among strangers.

Others reject this and go for the literal (I fall somewhere between). But there was obviously something powerful going on, since the stories survived.

Part of a Christain's faith journey is struggling to understand these mysteries, because struggle is what makes people grow.

Hotly debated, especially among groups like TJS, not so among others, as wether or not he made this claim. But the sine qua non of a Christian is that Jesus was actually God AND human FULLY AND COMPLETELY.

This takes alot of work to get one's mind around and I personally don't think we are capable of understanding all it's implications.

That doesn't stop us from trying however

Some of my own conclusions based on this belief:

-Jesus knew, really knew about all the agony and suffering (mentally, spiritually and physically) that is inherent to being human

-Being the "Son of God" and the "Son of Man" (both terms are used) implicitly makes us also "Sons and Daughter's of God". Further, that means that God is in everyone of us, and it is our purpose to discover the Godhead inside of us. And FURTHER, to recognize and acknowledge the Godhead inside of our fellow human beings.


Again, only speaking for myself, there is no offense taken.

Anyone who cannot stand questions and/or criticism of their faith has a weak faith indeed, IMHO.

Peace!

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SecretMethod70

Lebell pretty much answered this one as best as I could at this point, and I am a current Catholic learning these very things as I study contemporary Catholic theology, just so that it doesn't seem that Lebell's ex-Catholic status means those interpretations go "against" Catholic teaching

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Lebell

SecretMethod,

I am definitely not Orthodox in my beliefs, but nor am I so far out there that I am not recognizably Christain.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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SecretMethod70

heh, yeah, I understand that. What I mean is that, as should be the case in any time period, the past 50 years or so have seen the beginning in a shift of thought in Catholic theology towards exactly what you're saying, for the most part Much like Thomas Aquinas was considered a heretic at first because of his "new" interpretations of Church doctrine, there is of course resistance to change and, thus, change takes place over long periods of time (see Mel Gibson's brand of "catholicism" for a great example of this resistance), but it seems to be coming clear that change is occurring in that direction.

Anyways, don't wanna threadjack so may as well respond in PMs

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

SecretMethod70

Oh yeah, and to expound on Lebell's book recommendation, another that may be of interest is called "The Meaning of Jesus." It is co-authored by Marcus Borg and N.T. Wright. The nice thing about it is that it's designed to present two opposing views concerning Jesus in a point/counterpoint manner.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

sprocket

Some people theorize that Jesus used many of the eastern energy healing techniques that are just starting to become known to western culture these days, such as reiki or jin shin jiatsu. These healing methods involve manipulating the human energy field, much like acupuncture, except they use human touch by laying of hands. These practices have had some "miraculous" healing results that would shock many people of the western medicine modality. Wether one beleives they are placebos or not, it can't be denied that the power to heal with no more than a laying of hands can pretty amazing.

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theusername

Thanks Lebell. Didnt think one person was gonna come in and answer them so well. Anyways thanks for the book suggestions im going to look into picking one of them up next time I stop by Barnes and Nobles.

Jay Francis

Nag Hammadi 1945. A treasure trove of manuscripts of early Christian writings was discovered. Bits and pieces and full tracts including the infancy gospels of Thomas and of James recounting the life of Jesus as a child. Very interesting reading. I would recommend tracking down a copy of The Complete Gospels edited by Robert J. Miller and featuring these and other gospels including the four that Irenaeus decided to use for the New Testament.

The translation is new, dubbed the Scholar's translation as it takes into account all the latest knowledge about the meaning of the original Greek, Hebrew, Coptic, and Aramaic texts.

The original texts were written in a quite easy to read Greek. It is only the awkwardness of the King James translation, written for another time that makes it difficult to read the books of the New Testament.

And don't forget, most of the early followers believed that Jesus would return soon, establishing a kingdom on earth. There are even references to this quick return in Luke and Mark and the letters of Paul. When Jesus didn't return, and the early followers had pretty much died off, and Jerusalem was destroyed, this caused an incredible amount of stress in the early Christian community leading to the re-writing of the story of Jesus to fit a different interpretation.

SecretMethod70

From a theological perspective, the Dead Sea Scrolls are excellent insights into the historical Jesus, but not necessarily into the spiritual Jesus. If you actually study the process through which the Bible was eventually compiled - which took place over hundreds of years and many heated debates through ecumenical councils - you'll find that nothing was suddenly "changed" to fit any interpretation, but, more accurately, people's own experiences became more accurately described, much like any other process of knowledge, over time we come to understand things better.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

ChrisJericho

I was taking a religion course about Judaism a few years ago that was taught by rabbi. Even though I am an atheist I find learning about religions interesting. Anyway, towards the end of this class the topic of Jesus came up. A girl in the class asked the question

"So WHY didn't the Jews accept Jesus as their Messiah?" She said this in a rather snobby way that made me suspect she was a christian.

The instructor/rabbi answered:
"Why WOULD the Jews accept Jesus as their Messiah?" he then went on to say that after Jesus was crucified, nothing changed for the Jewish community, they were still dominated by the romans and things just generally still sucked.

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"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

FleaCircus

For more on this, read Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal by Christopher Moore.

It's fiction, and it's funny as hell, but it applies, I think.

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Thagrastay

The Kingdom has come in it's first part: The outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Before Meshiach came, the Holy Spirit was made available only to individuals on ocassion and to the High Priest as needed. The Tapestry seperated everyone from the Holy of Holies and the Shekina Glory was hidden from the eyes and presence of mankind because sin and unholiness made us unworthy of being in G*d's presence. Only could the Atonement Sacrifice offered by the High Priest cover and excuse our sins and give us relief from damnation.
Yeshua was our personal Passover Lamb, Theusername, He was unblemished, washed, prepared, dressed and sacrificed (offered up)by the High Priest, and the Unblemished and Holy Living Blood of Atonement was shed this one time on behalf of Israel and then ALL people and ALL sin for ALL TIME that there would never be a need for another sacrifice again. G*D accepted this sacrifice and in demonstration of His approval, the tapestry in the Temple, which seperated the Mercy seat from the the Mankind, was rent in two and fell tom the floor and the Yeshua was became our High Priest- in the order of Melchezidek, and defends us before G*d. After He asacended, fifty days later, on the Pentecost, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was made manifest, and the Kingdom of Heaven began in earnest on Earth. Understanding, wisdom, knowledge, healing, all these things became available to all persons, Jew and Gentile. The physical Kingdom of Heaven will come later when Meshiach returns physically to fulfill that prophecy and take up His throne in the temple in Jerusalem. That will happen soon enough, but not before things get pretty nasty here first.

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Thagrastay

Theusername-
The scriptures tell us that that Yeshua grew in knowledge and wisdom during His life. He was living in Nazareth, working with His step Father and brothers as a Carpenter, studdying the scriptures and praying and learning and observing the Law. He was preparing to begin His Ministry.

The Gospels, especially that of Luke have been poured over for two thousand years and have withstood the test of time. Simon Greenleaf, the noted Legal scholar remarked that as eyewitness testimony, they would stand up in any court of law!
You must remeber to whjo the Gospels were bewing addressed, when you consider their content and style- Matthew was addressing the Jews- Hence the long list of familial lineage to verify Meschiach' mother's genetic tie to the House of Judah and Yesjua's descence from David. Mark was written to demonstrate the desendensce from both Miriam, Yeshua's mother and Yoshua', His step father. John was written to demonstrate Yeshua's divinity and how He was, without question, the Meshiach that came into the world to restore all things. Luke was written as an historical accoutn and as such, contains man, various textual and seemingly unimportant date and personal details that have been discovered, proven and verified that it has placed Luke, a physician and friend of Pual's in a category of historian execellente'.

Yeshua stated that He was the Word and the Way. He stated that He was the Bread of Life and that no man could come to the Father except through Him. Yeshua stated that if you had seen Him, you had seen the Father, because He and the Father were the same.When brought befoire to Sanhedrin and accused of crimes, Yeshua stated that Abraham had rejoiced to see this day, and when Caiphas, the High Priest of Israel asked Yeshua how He could know Abraham, Yeshua replied : "I tell you the truth- before Abraham was, I AM."
Yeshua healed and restored to life using faith. It was not magic or eastern mysicism or kinetics. He stated that "if anyone has the faith of a mustard seed and should command a mountain to be cast into the sea, it would be done." Yeshua came as an example of how to live and serve G*D.
Jesus was THE son of G*D because it was promised that way. In Genesis, at the fall, G*D promised the enemy that through the seed of the woman He would set things right and "He will crush your head and you will bruise His heel" On top of Mount Sinai, when Moses is about to receive the tablets from G*D, the Lord tells Moses that the Israelites are partying at the base of the mountain and that He is going to destroy them all and start all over again, making a great nation out of Moses-(He is giving Moses the opportunity to intercede for the Israelites) When Moses convinces G*D not to, but to spare the Israelites, G*D replies to him, that's fine, but "Woe to them at the time of MY visitation" This means that G*D Himself meant to come to the Israelites in the flesh as One of them. On Palm Sunday, when Yeshua presented Himself before the Piests at the Triumphal Entry, and they denied Him, His response to them was "Woe to you, for you have missed the time of your Visitation."

Yeashua was THE son because only ONE single man could fulfill all the Laws of God and make right all the requirements of G*D. That man would HAVE to be G*D in the flesh. Only a Perfect man would be able to and be willing and be right for a perfect sacrifice for all the sins of all persons for all time and atone for all things and m,ake all things new again. That was who Yeshua, Meshiach was. The Lamb of GOD who took away the sins of the world.
I hope this helps.

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"