Organized religion=hatred? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

tecoyah · 12-02-2003, 06:59 AM

I have, for years, pondered what this world would be like without the discourse created by the"My God is the Only God" mentality of religious thought. Seems to me, many wars and hatreds would never have come about in the absence of such a bigoted group of beliefs. Any thoughts?

Kyo · 12-02-2003, 07:12 AM

- Bigotry is a part of human nature. So long as people are able to form their own opinions, bigotry will exist in some form or another, and on a very large scale.

- In the context of the question, we can consider religion to be a set of one's most intimate and fervent beliefs - ones that we would die to protect, or kill to enforce. In this way, religion is not that much different from, say, nationalism, where "My Country is the Best Country," or from many other beliefs that we hold. Someone might fervently believe hotdogs to be the best food in the world, and while I hope they would not kill someone simply for disagreeing, the underlying principle is the same. It is simply a matter of severity.

- In short, everyone has their own beliefs, not all of which coincide, and some of which are in direct opposition to each other. Regardless of what these beliefs are related to, if one is serious enough about his beliefs then conflict and bloodshed is likely to result.

aurigus · 12-02-2003, 07:15 AM

The only way religion can exist is if each religion believes their god is the only and best god.

Otherwise, they would be saying "Sure, that other God is better... I'm just sticking with this religion to see where it takes me."

Religion is self-perpetuating. When it feels threatened it will fight back. Yes it sucks, but it seems like people are either too ignorant or too proud to accept it I think. Maybe one of these millennia we will wise up!

tecoyah · 12-02-2003, 07:20 AM

Agreed, human nature is inherently bigoted. It just seems that religious beliefs nurture suh hatreds, rather than attempting to alleviate or temper the differences.The question is (and I realize there is likely no way to answer accurately) would there be nearly as much destruction because of these differences if the primary mechanism of creating them did not exist?

Sho Nuff · 12-02-2003, 07:42 AM

The majority of religions in the world co-exist peacefully with the others. It is only the big 3, Christianity, Islam and Judaism that come into conflict with many others. In the Torah there are even stories about ancient Hebrews becoming Jews by marriage. Religion was a cultural decision that didn’t cause many wars until the birth of theocratic governments in the Europe and their attempted forceful conversions. Religion and the nature of man is not the problem, it is those that use religion to gain political leverage.

tecoyah · 12-02-2003, 08:16 AM

The only way religion can exist is if each religion believes their god is the only and best god.

Otherwise, they would be saying "Sure, that other God is better... I'm just sticking with this religion to see where it takes me."

I guess this is true....I am pagan and fully accept all religions as true in the eyes of those who follow them. I don't think mine is the "right" path for anyone but me. I guess I just wish the Big Three could be more tolerant of each other for the benefit of humans as a whole. Gets a bit frustrating.....

Mantus · 12-02-2003, 08:42 AM

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are perhaps the most ridiculous religions in the world. Their Holy texts have the most contradictions and are written in such a way so that anything can be justified or vilified at the whim of the practitioners. It is obvious then that the plebian masses can be easily controlled by the politician and fanatics at the reigns of these religions that disguise themselves clergymen.

The irony about Christianity is that Jesus was actually against organized religions. If he knew what his teachings were going to accomplished he would have probably kept his mouth shut.

All religions conflicts have been waged for political reasons. Easter religions are better written because they are based on philosophy and spirituality and exclude science from their teachings. It doesn’t mean that that there have never been any wars in the east. Though there have been fewer religions conflicts. Religions are more tolerant of each other in the East. For example in a Buddhist temple one might find a separate shrine to Confucius as well as other local deities and spirits. The same didn’t happen for Christianity when it was introduced to Asia. When Westerners came to Asia in an attempt to convert its populace, the political leaders became worried. The Christians were preaching non-tolerance of all eastern spirituality and morality including Confucian teachings, which were the base of not only their way of life but also the whole Asian political system. As such the Christians were persecuted and stamped out.

This is obviously just a very small piece of the whole picture. What is certain is that religion has not caused humanity to be more violent but instead has failed to alter human society and our tendencies to be violent. If religion didn’t exist nothing would change. Politicians would just find another tool to control the populace. This is the main reason that I have turned away from religion and decided to find my own path to spirituality.

MSD · 12-02-2003, 08:52 AM

The way I see it, everyone should just agree that they're worshipping the same God. I'm not a follower of any major religion, yet I can get along with Christians, Jews, Muslims, and just about everyone else. I've never gotten into a fight over religion, yet I've discussed it many times. I've seen religious people discuss their views and not fight. They certainly didn't hate each other abecause of religious differences.

Kyo · 12-02-2003, 11:30 AM

- I think 'only' and 'best' are mutually exclusive, or rather, non-sequiter. You can't be the best if you are the only one, since it 'best' implies you have something to compare against. In the case of religion, 'only' is the key - all other Gods are necessarily false rather than worse. This is, as you can see, a very important distinction.

- MrSelfDestruct, it is exactly because you are not a follower that you are able to co-exist happily with Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Many people tend to think that those who aren't followers are neutral, with no opinion. It is easy for them to forget that having no opinion is, in fact, in direct opposition to their belief. Aetheists ("There is no God") and agnostics ("There might be a God, but there is no way of knowing") are actually directly opposed to any religion which worships a higher power. If your religious friends were to seriously consider this, I'm not entirely sure they would be so tolerant of you.

- Tolerance is something which cannot exist in any true religion, as most of their doctrine is black and white. Either you are a follower or you are not, a believer or an infidel, a friend or an enemy. There is no 'halfway' or 'gray area' - by it's very nature religion simply does not allow such compromises to exist.

- To directly answer the question of whether the absence of religion would have prevented some of the conflicts and atrocities that we have seen through the ages, I believe that the absence of religion would have little impact on the conflicts humanity has suffered through. Whereever there are boundaries or differences, there will be conflict. If there are different countries with different goals and different ideals, there will be wars between these countries. If there are different cultures, different races - in short, if there exists any way to categorize people and divide them into separate camps with conflicting interests, then we, as a species, will fight over it until we bury ourselves beneath our own weapons and hatred. It is, after all, human nature.

tecoyah · 12-02-2003, 01:37 PM

Well put Kyo....only beg to differ with the assumption that all religions lack tolerance, the pagan path inherantly accepts all others due to its general structure....there is no black and white at all...everything serves its designed purpose, including religions.

chavos · 12-02-2003, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Tolerance is something which cannot exist in any true religion,

Nope. Several world wide religions are expressedly organized principles of acceptance of other faiths. Several others have strong ecumenical tendancies. Posting one's opinion is fine...but manufacturing false facts is quite another.

I've seen plenty of pretty senseless bickering and religious misunderstanding, but i've also had extremely meaningful experiences crossing those boundaries with respect. Some of the most meaningful times i have worhsipped have been side by side with members with other traditions: protestant, muslim, mormon, hindu, quaker, jewish...all sharing a connection with God. While i respect that your expereinces may have been different, i suggest that you refrain from generalizing your case as the rule, since there are most definately counter examples.

Kyo · 12-02-2003, 08:24 PM

- My apologies. You should be aware, however, that 'facts' are limited by one's experience. It is implied in any statement that one makes that it is true insofar as one believe's or has witnessed. And, from what I have seen, tolerance is not very high on the list of any religious person. Granted, I have not encountered but the most prevalent of religions, so my experience is perhaps not as broad as I would like.

- If both chavos and tecoyah would please explain the exact basis of these faiths, I would be grateful. Because, as of this posting, I am unable to see how a religion can function by accepting other religions - especially if these other religions are contradictory. In other words, let us assume that one religion has claimed God A to be the single, true God. Another religion has claimed that, in fact, God B is the true God and God A is a farce. Yet another religion claims the Gods C through F form a pantheon of Gods, and both God A and God B are myths. How, exactly, can any serious faith accept and agree with all three? For you see, from a logical standpoint, they cannot.

chavos · 12-02-2003, 11:20 PM

I'm not a member of either one of those faiths, so i will stand corrected if need be. My understanding is that both promote respect for all the forms and traditions through which God has revealed God's self to humankind, regardless of exclusive truth claims. Basically, they affirm the core message of the prophet/faith, with out affirming the claim to sole truth.

Many bhuddists, hindus, animists, polythiests, and adherants of eastern philosophies/faiths would express similar sentiments, as well. (As a Christian, this is also my viewpoint, one in which i know i am not alone in with in the xtian world.) The "Mine Only" view of religion is a particular sub-set of primarly Western faiths, and is not representative of the range of human religious experience. My condolences that your experience with religious folk has not been the greatest...but for the sake of civility, it's a good idea to avoid overgeneralizations...

tecoyah · 12-03-2003, 04:05 AM

Kyo- Paganism is a reversion to the old, earth based religions. It is a loose grouping of many old beiefs put under a blanket term of Pagan. These faiths generally accept all things in this life as necessary choices and actions, leading to a fuller understanding of personal spirituality. There is no one "God", but instead many manifestations of "that which is", The guiding energy if you will.

There can be no contradictory religious standards, if you "need" all the pieces of this puzzle we call life.There is no good or evil, no heaven or hell. There is only the opportunity inherent in experience, therefor, everything just is....we as individual souls can either learn from life, or fail to do so. As a sideline, the manipulation of energy by those skilled in these things, is considered as proof of "that which is" by many who follow the Pagan path. Some are ignorant enough to refer to this as witchcraft(read wicca) but the ability to touch this force is very real. Holistic healing and reiki are obvious examples of this manifestation of said energy, As I myself am a Reiki practitioner, I have beeen fortunate enough to experience this first hand. There is nothing like direct experience to firm up beliefs. hope this helps

filtherton · 12-03-2003, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kyo

- Tolerance is something which cannot exist in any true religion, as most of their doctrine is black and white. Either you are a follower or you are not, a believer or an infidel, a friend or an enemy. There is no 'halfway' or 'gray area' - by it's very nature religion simply does not allow such compromises to exist.

Tolerance can't exist if you define religion as something that can't be tolerant. I know many christians who are exceedingly tolerant of other religions. I have also met many athiests who are extremely intolerant of people who don't share their beliefs. The same goes for futbol afficionados across the globe.
I don't think that intolerance is a reflection of formal religion, rather i think it is a reflection of the people in power in that religion, or of the followers of that religion(who, especially in christianity, tend to have a very tenuous grasp of what their religion is actually about. Jesus was anti-greed and pro helping the sick and the poor- how 21st century christian america is that?)

tecoyah- certainly you're not claiming that pagan religions-as practiced throught the millenia-lack the capacity for bigotry and oppression.

Kyo · 12-03-2003, 01:36 PM

- My problem, then, lies with validity. If you accept the 'underlying message' of Christianity, but do not accept the Christian God, you are not really accepting Christianity at all. In fact, you are expressly choosing to ignore what most believe to be exactly the point of Christianity.

- As such, I should reword my previous tolerance statement, since it seems to be the one causing the most grief. Rather than 'tolerance', perhaps we should instead say 'agreement', or something to that effect. In other words, religions are 'in general' (aha!) mutually exclusive. Even your 'tolerant' religions would not agree that Christianity is accurate - not the way that Christians believe it to be accurate.

- These pagan faiths fall to the same problem. While they might be tolerant of other religions, they downgrade and adulterate them into 'things people believe.' This is insulting, quite frankly, to someone who is convinced that their God is the One True God. The view that religion is simply a piece of the puzzle, something to 'serve a purpose', like a rake or a hammer, is a view that would have many zealots screaming for blood.

filtherton · 12-03-2003, 01:55 PM

I know many christians who believe wholeheartedly in their god and also believe in the validity of hinduism and islam. Religion is a matter of faith, and when something is a matter of faith it is plain ignorant not to acknowledge someone else's vision of that faith as possibly accurate.
Certainly there are many christians and athiests and muslims who show little tolerance for the perspectives of others. This fact is not grounds for writing off all of christianity as disagreeable. Kyo, as someone who i am assuming is an atheist or agnostic, how can you claim to know what it means toaccept chrisitanity? Your argument becomes innacurate as soon as you lump all christians together under the same "umbrella of agreement ". Christianity is as diverse a religion as insects in the amazon.

12-02-2003, 06:59 AM	#1 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Organized religion=hatred? I have, for years, pondered what this world would be like without the discourse created by the"My God is the Only God" mentality of religious thought. Seems to me, many wars and hatreds would never have come about in the absence of such a bigoted group of beliefs. Any thoughts? __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

12-02-2003, 07:12 AM	#2 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	- Bigotry is a part of human nature. So long as people are able to form their own opinions, bigotry will exist in some form or another, and on a very large scale. - In the context of the question, we can consider religion to be a set of one's most intimate and fervent beliefs - ones that we would die to protect, or kill to enforce. In this way, religion is not that much different from, say, nationalism, where "My Country is the Best Country," or from many other beliefs that we hold. Someone might fervently believe hotdogs to be the best food in the world, and while I hope they would not kill someone simply for disagreeing, the underlying principle is the same. It is simply a matter of severity. - In short, everyone has their own beliefs, not all of which coincide, and some of which are in direct opposition to each other. Regardless of what these beliefs are related to, if one is serious enough about his beliefs then conflict and bloodshed is likely to result. __________________ Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out. Last edited by Kyo; 12-02-2003 at 07:14 AM..

12-02-2003, 07:20 AM	#4 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Agreed, human nature is inherently bigoted. It just seems that religious beliefs nurture suh hatreds, rather than attempting to alleviate or temper the differences.The question is (and I realize there is likely no way to answer accurately) would there be nearly as much destruction because of these differences if the primary mechanism of creating them did not exist? __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

12-02-2003, 07:42 AM	#5 (permalink)
Sho Nuff Addict Location: Harlem	The majority of religions in the world co-exist peacefully with the others. It is only the big 3, Christianity, Islam and Judaism that come into conflict with many others. In the Torah there are even stories about ancient Hebrews becoming Jews by marriage. Religion was a cultural decision that didn’t cause many wars until the birth of theocratic governments in the Europe and their attempted forceful conversions. Religion and the nature of man is not the problem, it is those that use religion to gain political leverage. __________________ I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

12-02-2003, 08:16 AM	#6 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	The only way religion can exist is if each religion believes their god is the only and best god. Otherwise, they would be saying "Sure, that other God is better... I'm just sticking with this religion to see where it takes me." I guess this is true....I am pagan and fully accept all religions as true in the eyes of those who follow them. I don't think mine is the "right" path for anyone but me. I guess I just wish the Big Three could be more tolerant of each other for the benefit of humans as a whole. Gets a bit frustrating..... __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

12-02-2003, 07:15 AM	#3 (permalink)
aurigus Insane	The only way religion can exist is if each religion believes their god is the only and best god. Otherwise, they would be saying "Sure, that other God is better... I'm just sticking with this religion to see where it takes me." Religion is self-perpetuating. When it feels threatened it will fight back. Yes it sucks, but it seems like people are either too ignorant or too proud to accept it I think. Maybe one of these millennia we will wise up!

12-02-2003, 08:42 AM	#7 (permalink)
Mantus lascivious	Judaism, Christianity and Islam are perhaps the most ridiculous religions in the world. Their Holy texts have the most contradictions and are written in such a way so that anything can be justified or vilified at the whim of the practitioners. It is obvious then that the plebian masses can be easily controlled by the politician and fanatics at the reigns of these religions that disguise themselves clergymen. The irony about Christianity is that Jesus was actually against organized religions. If he knew what his teachings were going to accomplished he would have probably kept his mouth shut. All religions conflicts have been waged for political reasons. Easter religions are better written because they are based on philosophy and spirituality and exclude science from their teachings. It doesn’t mean that that there have never been any wars in the east. Though there have been fewer religions conflicts. Religions are more tolerant of each other in the East. For example in a Buddhist temple one might find a separate shrine to Confucius as well as other local deities and spirits. The same didn’t happen for Christianity when it was introduced to Asia. When Westerners came to Asia in an attempt to convert its populace, the political leaders became worried. The Christians were preaching non-tolerance of all eastern spirituality and morality including Confucian teachings, which were the base of not only their way of life but also the whole Asian political system. As such the Christians were persecuted and stamped out. This is obviously just a very small piece of the whole picture. What is certain is that religion has not caused humanity to be more violent but instead has failed to alter human society and our tendencies to be violent. If religion didn’t exist nothing would change. Politicians would just find another tool to control the populace. This is the main reason that I have turned away from religion and decided to find my own path to spirituality. Last edited by Mantus; 12-02-2003 at 11:36 AM..

12-02-2003, 08:52 AM	#8 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	The way I see it, everyone should just agree that they're worshipping the same God. I'm not a follower of any major religion, yet I can get along with Christians, Jews, Muslims, and just about everyone else. I've never gotten into a fight over religion, yet I've discussed it many times. I've seen religious people discuss their views and not fight. They certainly didn't hate each other abecause of religious differences.

12-02-2003, 11:30 AM	#9 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	- I think 'only' and 'best' are mutually exclusive, or rather, non-sequiter. You can't be the best if you are the only one, since it 'best' implies you have something to compare against. In the case of religion, 'only' is the key - all other Gods are necessarily false rather than worse. This is, as you can see, a very important distinction. - MrSelfDestruct, it is exactly because you are not a follower that you are able to co-exist happily with Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Many people tend to think that those who aren't followers are neutral, with no opinion. It is easy for them to forget that having no opinion is, in fact, in direct opposition to their belief. Aetheists ("There is no God") and agnostics ("There might be a God, but there is no way of knowing") are actually directly opposed to any religion which worships a higher power. If your religious friends were to seriously consider this, I'm not entirely sure they would be so tolerant of you. - Tolerance is something which cannot exist in any true religion, as most of their doctrine is black and white. Either you are a follower or you are not, a believer or an infidel, a friend or an enemy. There is no 'halfway' or 'gray area' - by it's very nature religion simply does not allow such compromises to exist. - To directly answer the question of whether the absence of religion would have prevented some of the conflicts and atrocities that we have seen through the ages, I believe that the absence of religion would have little impact on the conflicts humanity has suffered through. Whereever there are boundaries or differences, there will be conflict. If there are different countries with different goals and different ideals, there will be wars between these countries. If there are different cultures, different races - in short, if there exists any way to categorize people and divide them into separate camps with conflicting interests, then we, as a species, will fight over it until we bury ourselves beneath our own weapons and hatred. It is, after all, human nature. __________________ Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out.

12-02-2003, 01:37 PM	#10 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Well put Kyo....only beg to differ with the assumption that all religions lack tolerance, the pagan path inherantly accepts all others due to its general structure....there is no black and white at all...everything serves its designed purpose, including religions. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

12-02-2003, 08:24 PM	#12 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	- My apologies. You should be aware, however, that 'facts' are limited by one's experience. It is implied in any statement that one makes that it is true insofar as one believe's or has witnessed. And, from what I have seen, tolerance is not very high on the list of any religious person. Granted, I have not encountered but the most prevalent of religions, so my experience is perhaps not as broad as I would like. - If both chavos and tecoyah would please explain the exact basis of these faiths, I would be grateful. Because, as of this posting, I am unable to see how a religion can function by accepting other religions - especially if these other religions are contradictory. In other words, let us assume that one religion has claimed God A to be the single, true God. Another religion has claimed that, in fact, God B is the true God and God A is a farce. Yet another religion claims the Gods C through F form a pantheon of Gods, and both God A and God B are myths. How, exactly, can any serious faith accept and agree with all three? For you see, from a logical standpoint, they cannot. __________________ Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out.

12-02-2003, 11:20 PM	#13 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	I'm not a member of either one of those faiths, so i will stand corrected if need be. My understanding is that both promote respect for all the forms and traditions through which God has revealed God's self to humankind, regardless of exclusive truth claims. Basically, they affirm the core message of the prophet/faith, with out affirming the claim to sole truth. Many bhuddists, hindus, animists, polythiests, and adherants of eastern philosophies/faiths would express similar sentiments, as well. (As a Christian, this is also my viewpoint, one in which i know i am not alone in with in the xtian world.) The "Mine Only" view of religion is a particular sub-set of primarly Western faiths, and is not representative of the range of human religious experience. My condolences that your experience with religious folk has not been the greatest...but for the sake of civility, it's a good idea to avoid overgeneralizations... Last edited by chavos; 12-03-2003 at 07:35 AM..

12-03-2003, 04:05 AM	#14 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Kyo- Paganism is a reversion to the old, earth based religions. It is a loose grouping of many old beiefs put under a blanket term of Pagan. These faiths generally accept all things in this life as necessary choices and actions, leading to a fuller understanding of personal spirituality. There is no one "God", but instead many manifestations of "that which is", The guiding energy if you will. There can be no contradictory religious standards, if you "need" all the pieces of this puzzle we call life.There is no good or evil, no heaven or hell. There is only the opportunity inherent in experience, therefor, everything just is....we as individual souls can either learn from life, or fail to do so. As a sideline, the manipulation of energy by those skilled in these things, is considered as proof of "that which is" by many who follow the Pagan path. Some are ignorant enough to refer to this as witchcraft(read wicca) but the ability to touch this force is very real. Holistic healing and reiki are obvious examples of this manifestation of said energy, As I myself am a Reiki practitioner, I have beeen fortunate enough to experience this first hand. There is nothing like direct experience to firm up beliefs. hope this helps __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

12-03-2003, 01:36 PM	#16 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	- My problem, then, lies with validity. If you accept the 'underlying message' of Christianity, but do not accept the Christian God, you are not really accepting Christianity at all. In fact, you are expressly choosing to ignore what most believe to be exactly the point of Christianity. - As such, I should reword my previous tolerance statement, since it seems to be the one causing the most grief. Rather than 'tolerance', perhaps we should instead say 'agreement', or something to that effect. In other words, religions are 'in general' (aha!) mutually exclusive. Even your 'tolerant' religions would not agree that Christianity is accurate - not the way that Christians believe it to be accurate. - These pagan faiths fall to the same problem. While they might be tolerant of other religions, they downgrade and adulterate them into 'things people believe.' This is insulting, quite frankly, to someone who is convinced that their God is the One True God. The view that religion is simply a piece of the puzzle, something to 'serve a purpose', like a rake or a hammer, is a view that would have many zealots screaming for blood. __________________ Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out.

12-03-2003, 01:55 PM	#17 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I know many christians who believe wholeheartedly in their god and also believe in the validity of hinduism and islam. Religion is a matter of faith, and when something is a matter of faith it is plain ignorant not to acknowledge someone else's vision of that faith as possibly accurate. Certainly there are many christians and athiests and muslims who show little tolerance for the perspectives of others. This fact is not grounds for writing off all of christianity as disagreeable. Kyo, as someone who i am assuming is an atheist or agnostic, how can you claim to know what it means toaccept chrisitanity? Your argument becomes innacurate as soon as you lump all christians together under the same "umbrella of agreement ". Christianity is as diverse a religion as insects in the amazon. Last edited by filtherton; 12-03-2003 at 01:57 PM..