Infinity. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

shrubbery · 11-20-2003, 03:55 PM

Fact: The universe is infinite. To get my post, you have to try to perceive the mind-boggling size that is...

Ergo, there must be life on other planets. INFINITE means that at some point there must be a planet just like this one with people just like us. However improbable this might be, at some point in an infinite universe this will have to exist.

And what about time? Since the universe is infinite, some place there has to be a parallell world to our where everything is the same as here. And, once again, because the universe is infinite there must also be infinite earth just like ours. This way space and time can be connected .. say the difference between one world and another one could be me sitting here and writing this text. Or it could be a single atom that is placed differently.

Is these thoughts been thought before? Is there some huge logical flaw in my 'theory' that I can't find?

krazixs · 11-20-2003, 04:03 PM

yes it has. It goes along with the theory of an infinite amount of monkeys with typewriters, eventually there is a chance however small, that one of them will write Shakespeare.

"Ford, could you help me out?"

"What seems to be the problem?"

"There's a bunch of monkey's with a script for Hamlet trying to open the door"

Douglas Adams I love you.

cliche · 11-20-2003, 04:11 PM

shrubbery - there's a dfference between the universe being infinite, and it containing an infinite amount of matter (ie planets). Plus, if you're defining 'infinite size' by 'you can keep going forever without hitting an edge', imagine that it might be curved in another dimension - like an ant wandering on the surface of a football.

So I find fault with your argument, to be honest:
1) is the universe infinite?
2) you've jumped from infinite space to infinite matter
3) if something is infinite, must it all be different?

To understand (3) - if I tell you that the decimal expansion of 1/3 has an infinite number of digits; I could use the same logic you've just used to say that it must contain every digit known to man, and every possible sequence of numbers... Just because it's infinite doesn't mean it is infinitely variable.

Having said all that, you could well be right (see anything on Possible Worlds. The Worlds might not be in our universe - depends how you define universe to be honest - but could be out there!)

And Douglas Adams is wonderful...

ratbastid · 11-20-2003, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shrubbery
Fact: The universe is infinite.

Nope.

Hypothesis: The universe is infinite.

It's widely believed to be true in cosmological circles. But nobody's actually been out there in the universe far enough away to test it. So it's still only a hypothesis, and not a fact.

Now to respond to your actual POINT!

I read an article in Scientific American a few months ago that proved three different ways the "multiple earths in parallel universes" theories, and which resulted in three different models of parallel universes.

The simplest one is roughly what you're saying--given the sheer gobsmacking size of the universe, and the recent discovery that the universal mass temperature is amazingly consistent (sorry, cliche, but .3333 repeating DOES turn out to contain every possible digit!), there's got to be SOMEWHERE that's just like this, plus an infinite number of places that are ALMOST just like this.

The most complex one posited multiple universes that are different shapes and ruled by different laws of physics. I can't quite remember how it was proven, but at the end of the article, I was convinced.

wilbjammin · 11-20-2003, 07:10 PM

Well... here's the short of it.

These questions are non-sequiturs. How does this have any effect on your life whatsoever? Without having experienced infinitity, parallel universes, etc... they are purely abstract theoretical constructs. Don't lose sight of your ability to choose and think for yourself... whether others in similiar or mirror situations would make the same decisions consistently or not does not matter. Keep yourself in focus.

gnort · 11-20-2003, 07:41 PM

This thread reminded me of an article that I read from Scientific American at the beginning of this year. I found this really interesting, here's an excerpt:

"The simplest and most popular cosmological model today predicts that you have a twin in a galaxy about 10 to the 10^28 meters from here. This distance is so large that it is beyond astronomical, but that does not make your doppelgänger any less real. The estimate is derived from elementary probability and does not even assume speculative modern physics, merely that space is infinite (or at least sufficiently large) in size and almost uniformly filled with matter, as observations indicate. In infinite space, even the most unlikely events must take place somewhere. There are infinitely many other inhabited planets, including not just one but infinitely many that have people with the same appearance, name and memories as you, who play out every possible permutation of your life choices."

And here's the rest:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...880000&catID=2

Kyo · 11-20-2003, 08:24 PM

- Explain how .3 repeating contains every possible digit. From where I'm looking, it can only contain the digit 3 by definition and therefore by definition cannot contain all of the possible digits.

- Consider this experiment - I toss a coin n times, where the nth toss is the first heads. Obviously, the possible values of n is the set of natural numbers 1, 2, 3, ... The probability of rolling a certain n=c, where c > ~20, becomes absurdly small, and approaches zero as c increases. However, it is completely possible to never toss a heads. Many people argue at this point that the probability of not tossing heads for even 30 tosses is already so close to zero that it might as well be zero. That is incorrect - since each toss is independant, I have a 1/2 chance of tossing heads in each case, regardless of how many times I have tossed the coin. So I could continue to toss tails forever.

- Therefore, to assume that infinity implies that everything that could possibly exist or happen does in fact exist or happen is not concrete.

happyraul · 11-20-2003, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kyo
- Consider this experiment - I toss a coin n times, where the nth toss is the first heads. Obviously, the possible values of n is the set of natural numbers 1, 2, 3, ... The probability of rolling a certain n=c, where c > ~20, becomes absurdly small, and approaches zero as c increases. However, it is completely possible to never toss a heads. Many people argue at this point that the probability of not tossing heads for even 30 tosses is already so close to zero that it might as well be zero. That is incorrect - since each toss is independant, I have a 1/2 chance of tossing heads in each case, regardless of how many times I have tossed the coin. So I could continue to toss tails forever.

The probability of not tossing heads for even 30 tosses is already so close to zero that it might as well be zero. This is not incorrect. This statement is equivalent to: the probability of getting 30 tails in a row is so close to zero it might as well be zero, which is correct. You are right that you have a 50% chance of tossing heads, but that does not change the fact that if you start tossing coins for the rest of your life you will probably never get 30 of either side in a row (I may be exaggerating here, but you get the point I hope). So yeah you could toss tails forever, but you won't.

I don't see how the coins relate to the topic though, so I don't know if this weakens your point.

cliche · 11-21-2003, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ratbastid
Nope.

Hypothesis: The universe is infinite.

It's widely believed to be true in cosmological circles. But nobody's actually been out there in the universe far enough away to test it. So it's still only a hypothesis, and not a fact.

With you there - of course, how far would you have to go to test it?

Quote:

(sorry, cliche, but .3333 repeating DOES turn out to contain every possible digit!)

I'd be interested to see your proof of this; sorry but proof-by-assertion just doesn't do it for me

I don't see how it can contain any digit other than '3' - any others and it is no longer equal to 1/3.

Kyo · 11-21-2003, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by happyraul
The probability of not tossing heads for even 30 tosses is already so close to zero that it might as well be zero. This is not incorrect. This statement is equivalent to: the probability of getting 30 tails in a row is so close to zero it might as well be zero, which is correct. You are right that you have a 50% chance of tossing heads, but that does not change the fact that if you start tossing coins for the rest of your life you will probably never get 30 of either side in a row (I may be exaggerating here, but you get the point I hope). So yeah you could toss tails forever, but you won't.

I don't see how the coins relate to the topic though, so I don't know if this weakens your point.

- The problem lies in this: assume you toss tails 30 times. "Well," you say to yourself, "the possibility of me tossing tails again is so low it might as well be zero, so my next toss will be a heads." And you toss ... and lo and behold, it's a tails!. You scratch your head in puzzlement and say, "Okay, well, now the possibility of tossing heads is even closer to zero, so my next toss must be a heads." And you toss again - and yet again, you get a tails! And again, and again, and again. Therefore, you cannot say that probability close to zero might as well be zero, so long as you are dealing with independant events.

- The coins relate to my argument in this fashion: unless you believe in chaos theory, I argue that events in the universe are, more or less, like tosses of that coin. Or rather, let us consider an infinite-sided dice, and consider some kind of celestial being (for the sake of example), which tosses this remarkable dice to determine the events of the universe. I argue that it is entirely possible to never roll the same number twice.

- To clarify - though you claim (and most agree) that the universe is infinite, I claim that there are an infinite number of possible events or sequences of events. When comparing infinite trials against an infinite number of possibilities, we are no longer able to assert that all possibilities will eventually come about - just as we could not assert that given infinite time we could toss all possible heads/tails sequences of a fair coin.

- Oh, I would also like to ask a question: so what? Even if life exists, even if parallel universes do exist, so what? Introducing a topic requires that you indicate why the listener/reader should care, to some extent, as a matter of common courtesy. At least, so I would like to think.

phukraut · 11-21-2003, 01:29 PM

Philosophical questions have intrinsic value to some people. I like reading and responding to philosophical topics that may never add anything to my life except another perspective, or a perspective on something I've never thought about.

That's good enough for me. Keep them coming!

shrubbery · 11-21-2003, 03:28 PM

I don't see how you'd expect a topic to change your view on life. I just want to increase my knowledge and see how other people respond to my thoughts and if they are as logic to them as they are to me.

And Kyo, drop the apathy. If you as a 'listener' aren't interested, so stay off the thread. If you say "So what.." to the question wether other life exists in the universe, you have nothing to do in a discussion board about philosophy.

VitaminH · 11-21-2003, 08:29 PM

Is it really even possible to determine that the universe is infinite? I mean, if it does have an end then that can be found via detection, exploration or whatever, but how can we ever be sure it is in fact endless? We'd never know if we'd maybe just looked a little bit furter or deeper if the end was there...

happyraul · 11-21-2003, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kyo
- The problem lies in this: assume you toss tails 30 times. "Well," you say to yourself, "the possibility of me tossing tails again is so low it might as well be zero, so my next toss will be a heads." And you toss ... and lo and behold, it's a tails!. You scratch your head in puzzlement and say, "Okay, well, now the possibility of tossing heads is even closer to zero, so my next toss must be a heads." And you toss again - and yet again, you get a tails! And again, and again, and again. Therefore, you cannot say that probability close to zero might as well be zero, so long as you are dealing with independant events.

- The coins relate to my argument in this fashion: unless you believe in chaos theory, I argue that events in the universe are, more or less, like tosses of that coin. Or rather, let us consider an infinite-sided dice, and consider some kind of celestial being (for the sake of example), which tosses this remarkable dice to determine the events of the universe. I argue that it is entirely possible to never roll the same number twice.

- To clarify - though you claim (and most agree) that the universe is infinite, I claim that there are an infinite number of possible events or sequences of events. When comparing infinite trials against an infinite number of possibilities, we are no longer able to assert that all possibilities will eventually come about - just as we could not assert that given infinite time we could toss all possible heads/tails sequences of a fair coin.

As far as the coin, I do not disagree with what you said, but never did I say that the probability of getting heads or tails for one trial is close to zero. I said the probability of getting 30 tails in a row is so close to zero it might as well be zero. In a row being the key words. This says nothing about the nth of 30 tosses, only that in 30 tosses you will almost surely toss both heads and tails.

Now then, if you have an infinite-sided die, I agree with you that it is possible to never roll the same side twice. Actually it is impossible to roll the same side twice, by definition. You roll once say, on your second roll, there is one side you can roll to have a repeated side come up, but there are infinitely many that you haven't rolled, as such it is not possible for you to roll a repeat, because any constant over infinity is zero.

If the universe is infinite, or even large enough that you might as well call it infinite, that does not mean that there are an infinite number of possible events or sequences of events as you put it. First of all there are a finite number of elements, and that suggests to me that there would be a finite number of possibilities. Just think of it this way:

Think of the graph of 1/x. It is asymtotic to the x and y axis. Now, imagine that the graph is rotated about the x axis, to make the shape of a bell, as in the "bell of a trumpet or trombone. Or a curved funnel if you will. This is a three dimensional construct, and its surface area is infinite. However its volume is finite. How do we explain this apparant paradox? Well just imagine it this way. You will never get enough paint to cover the outside of the shape, but if you pour paint enough paint into it you will fill it. This is because the atoms that make up paint are some size, and as the bell gets closer to the x axis, they simply wont fit inside any further at some point.

bermuDa · 11-21-2003, 11:52 PM

Research suggests that the universe is in fact finite.

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994250

another article

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/1...eut/index.html

Johnny Rotten · 11-22-2003, 12:06 AM

Space is a big place. It redefines the word "big." But it does not contain all possibilities. Plus, infinity does not require repetition. Note that pi is infinite, but does not repeat a single sequence of numbers.

TIO · 11-22-2003, 06:45 AM

Kyo, I think you need to read up on Chaos theory. It has absolutely no relevance at all to the statement about coin-tossing with which you connected it.

The equations governing physics today actually work best for a finite, unbounded universe (like the surface of a sphere). In fact, most astrophysicists believe that the universe's topology is exactly that: the surface of a hypersphere.
But whether the universe itself is finite or infinite, according to physics as it stands today, it is not even possible for the amount of stuff in the universe to be infinite. In fact, there probably isn't all that much stuff in the universe at all.

Shpoop · 11-22-2003, 06:57 AM

there is an infinite amount of x and y values on a graph, say x^3. However the conditions only exist once where both x and y are 0. That is the type of thing that can happen with the universe and life, not that i necessarily think that.

And what if the universe isnt infinite. What if it repeats somehow like a circle. And if the universe is expanding, by definition doesnt that mean there is a border and it is finite?

happyraul · 11-22-2003, 10:45 AM

So pi does not contain any arbitrary sequence of digits more than once? I don't believe it. Given that there are only ten digits, that is impossible.

krazixs · 11-22-2003, 10:54 AM

In the hopes you are being sarcastic happy, i'll just assume everyone knows that pi is a number with no end (as we know it) but that's a discussion for another time. Shpoop I had this same discussion on another board and it was generally agreed that the universe does have a border or boundray (sp?) if you will making it finite, however since it continues to grow and expand (for lack of a better term) it's size is infinite.

happyraul · 11-22-2003, 11:35 AM

Um no I was not being sarcastic. There are only ten digits, if you are talking about decimal representation. They are 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9. Since pi has no end, as you say, and as we all know, it is not possible that, if given any sequence of numbers, say 123, it does not occur more than once, because as I said, and as you know, there are only ten digits.

If the universe has a boundary, then what is on the outside of the boundary, and how does it differ from the inside?

Amarth · 11-22-2003, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ratbastid
Nope.

Hypothesis: The universe is infinite.

It's widely believed to be true in cosmological circles. But nobody's actually been out there in the universe far enough away to test it. So it's still only a hypothesis, and not a fact.

A good point, but it's funny to think of an astronaut with a tape measure going out and trying to measure infinity. It reminds me of in hitchhiker's guide when Zaphod's like, "Wow, that's pretty vast but it's still not infinite." I laughed a good deal at that.

Now that I've A.D.D.ed enough I'll try to respond to your point, or I would have except that cliche seems to have hit all my points already, so I'll just quote him.

Quote:

Originally posted by cliche
shrubbery - there's a dfference between the universe being infinite, and it containing an infinite amount of matter (ie planets). Plus, if you're defining 'infinite size' by 'you can keep going forever without hitting an edge', imagine that it might be curved in another dimension - like an ant wandering on the surface of a football.

So I find fault with your argument, to be honest:
1) is the universe infinite?
2) you've jumped from infinite space to infinite matter
3) if something is infinite, must it all be different?

To understand (3) - if I tell you that the decimal expansion of 1/3 has an infinite number of digits; I could use the same logic you've just used to say that it must contain every digit known to man, and every possible sequence of numbers... Just because it's infinite doesn't mean it is infinitely variable.

Having said all that, you could well be right (see anything on Possible Worlds. The Worlds might not be in our universe - depends how you define universe to be honest - but could be out there!)

And Douglas Adams is wonderful...

(The Douglas Adams is wonderful part is the most important part.)

phukraut · 11-22-2003, 03:03 PM

Pi DOES repeat sequences of numbers. the sequence {4}_{i=1}^{i=1} is a sequence of one term. here is a sample from the expansion: ...46264... , there it is. that is a trivial example, but it's also true for larger sequences of digits. {2,3} appears several times,
such as here, ...7932384..., and here, ...4592307...

perhaps what Rotten meant was that Pi will never tail to a repeating single digit, like in 1/12 = 0.08333...

raeanna74 · 11-23-2003, 08:15 AM

I don't know how I can find this or remember where I heard it from specifically. About 7 or 8 years ago, I think, I heard about an experiment that was done. They "aimed" a reciever of sorts at all points of the universe that they could. In every direction they received back a certain frequency at a constant strength. I think they were theorizing that the border of the universe is surrounded by this frequency or maybe even light. I wish I could remember specifics or my source. Anyone heard of something similar or have any ideas where to look?

Amarth · 11-23-2003, 01:36 PM

Nope, but that's crazy! Really shakin' up my thought processes here.

hiredgun · 11-23-2003, 02:13 PM

Well, if the Big Bang theory is true, doesn't it imply a finite amount of matter? Even if the universe is infinite, a finite amount of matter scattered in an infinite (or constantly-expanding) amount of space would not mean that there are infinite planets.

Dilbert1234567 · 11-23-2003, 02:51 PM

the univers is finite. plane and simple.

KnifeMissile · 11-23-2003, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by phukraut
perhaps what Rotten meant was that Pi will never tail to a repeating single digit, like in 1/12 = 0.08333...

I think what Johnny Rotten meant was that Pi will never tail into a repeating sequence of digits, like 281/990 = 0.28383...

TheFirstDuffMan · 11-25-2003, 08:25 PM

Pi will never start repeating itself; of course you'll see the same number, or sequence of numbers more than once, infact, you'll see it infinate numbers of times. Pi is an irrational transcendental number. It contains every possible sequence of numbers infinite times. Does that make things clearer?

Kyo is right.

Sho Nuff · 11-26-2003, 09:03 AM

Even if the universe is infinite, the likelihood of the conditions in any other part of the universe being exactly like it is here is infinitesimal. In terms of sheer probability of factors coming together to create our environment here on Earth, we are an anomaly should not exist. We also are only a short period of time in this planets existence. The majority of species on this planet are too fragile to survive common cosmic occurrences such as meteor impacts. The probability of a species this fragile growing at another point of the universe at any time, especially in the infinitesimal life span of our civilization in comparison to the universe would be nearly impossible.

Mantus · 11-26-2003, 10:12 AM

Well I must admit that a concept of an infinite universe sounds allot more appealing to me. It could be either one though.

It should be noted though, that if the universe can be infinitely big, then it can also be infinitely small. This prospect really makes my head hurt.

feelgood · 11-26-2003, 12:13 PM

Infinity is not something that can be put into an equation. It's only a theory. You can't just go out and point at the universe and say, "Oh, it's growing so expontially so it must be infinity size". Size is something that's measureable and hence cannot be infinity.

Now when you speak of the matter in space, space is not matter. If space had matter in it, then it wouldn't be a space at all would it? In order to actually prove this, which we already did. In order to allow sound to travel from one point to another, there must be matter to allow it pass the "wave" of the sound. But when this was tested in space, sound cannot be "heard" in space. So, hence there is nothing in space, just nothing.

Another point, you can't have "infinity" matter. There's limited matter or else, there really is something outside of the universe that's supplying it with more matter to allow it expand. To back that up, say you're locked in a room that suppose to simulate "space". No air, no nothing, just you and space. Something happens to you, you all of sudden exploed (just work with me). The amount of mass that original entered, would be exactly the same as the amount of mass that left the room.

Again, the concept of infinity isn't something you can just measure, it's just all an idea.

Kyo · 11-30-2003, 12:49 PM

- To begin with, one should not drop apathy. I was not being snide with that question. It is important for philosophical discussion to result in some kind of gain; I believe that philosophical discussion purely for its own sake is a waste of time and effort. There is a reason that many 'laypeople' disdain philosophy as merely an intellectual diversion.

- Chaos theory in fact has quite a lot to do with my tossing of the coin. The premise in that argument is that each toss is an independant event - an assumption that chaos theory blatantly refutes.

- Happyraul, you do not disagree that the probability of tossing tails on each individual toss does not decrease, regardless of the number of tails you have tossed before it. I argue that this fact alone is enough to refute the statement that the probability of tossing 30 tails in a row is so close to zero that it might as well be zero (and yes, 'in a row' being the key term). Each time you toss a coin, it is a completely isolated event. Therefore, your current toss does not 'see' how many tails you have tossed previous to this toss. The chances of you tossing a tails on your one millionth toss is equivalent to the chances of you tossing tails on your first toss. In short, my argument is that if the probability is not zero, it can not be considered zero, regardless of how close to zero it actually is.

- Taken another way, we consider what actually makes the probability decrease: the number of tosses. The chance of getting any particular sequence of heads or tails decreases at an equal rate as you increase the number of tosses. Therefore, the chances of tossing any particular sequence of heads and tails goes to zero as the number of tosses approaches infinity. If you consider each sequence to be a sequence of events as they have occured in reality, the probability of our specific reality occuring is extremely close to zero - so close, in fact, that it might as well be zero by your argument. And yet, here we are.

- Bypassing your 'paradoxical' 3D surface, consider just the spatial components of matter; ie. the exact location of any given particle in three dimensional space. We will assume that there are a finite number of particles, and a finite number of possible orientations of these particles into elements. However, if you claim that space is infinite, then there exists an infinite number of possibilities for the location of each particle. Therefore, I argue that my infinite-sided dice is, in fact, an acceptable analogy for this discussion, assuming that the universe is, in fact, infinite.

duckznutz · 11-30-2003, 03:30 PM

have to agree with Kyo . . . . . .. . many people are unable to grasp the logic that last weeks lottery numbers are as likely to appear again this week as any other sequence . . . . they prefer to beleive that last weeks sequence of numbers are 'guaranteed' NOT to re-appear.

I am intrigued however by the 'law of high numbers' which appears to illustrate that normal probabilities break down for very large repetitions.

Consider the number of roullette wheels spinning constantly around the world as you read this . . 24 hours a day every day for many many years. . . Now given such a massive amount of sample spins we would reasonably expect there to have been say 100 reds or blacks or evens or odds in a row by now . . . when in fact i understand the largest number of 50/50 'tosses' ever recorded is 23 reds in a row in France in the early 1970's. My point being that at very large samples the laws of probability break down, and you cannot reach any conclusions about 'infinity' or long term projections due to the fact that every day is a new day . . without any memory of the previous.

Crack · 12-13-2003, 03:22 PM

Infinity in an of itself cannot be proved one way or the other, Infinity is ENDLESS, how can you prove something is endless or not unless you actually end it and prove it's not endless? Even Pi.. just because we have not found the end, does not mean it does not end. We assume it does not end because it has not ended yet.

phukraut · 12-13-2003, 04:43 PM

this has been covered already: Pi will never terminate. not ever. we know this. it can be derived from mathematical logic. it requires absolutely no empirical measurements. hence we can completely know if Pi will end or not.

12-13-2003, 05:35 PM

Everybody seems to rely on belief and proof for such things as the Universe being infinite.
Belief and Proof all have one underlying detail: doubt.

You are out to find proof that the Universe in infinite, but since you don't have that proof, you aren't sure of it being true yet
OR
You believe that the Universe is infinite, yet believing is having faith and having faith is trusting that the universe being infinite is true, although you have no proof

Then there is Knowing and Truth, in which neither of those contains any doubt. (You may feel deep down that the universe is infinite and that never changes for you, no matter what is told to you by other sources.)

People have said that we have to have proof or believe in something in order to know or to find truth in it- doesn't corrolate.

When you are told something- you believe it. ("I believe that there is a God, since Pastor told me, although I have no proof.")
But when you feel something- you know it. ("I feel God deep within me, and this God is in no way cruel.")
So that knowing is embedded within you, no matter what. That you hold as your Truth. Your beliefs can change, however, if you learn from another outside source of something different.
So- in knowing you Truth (that which never changes, only evolves), you do not feel the need for proof or proving of your Truth.
Now- can we all distinguish some of the beliefs and truths we each have? Now, you accept your truths as being your truths, right? That you always felt that way about something deep down without thinking twice about it and that nothing would change that for you?
Well, does that mean they have to be the same as others' truths?

So, now- let's look at it this way.
beliefs and proof contains doubt, therefore, contains fear (that it may or may not be true). Then, this is why we tend to argue our views, because we tend to defend what we believe, doubt, and fear in hopes that we find proof or prove something. Hasn't gotten us anywhere thus far, now has it?

NOW
as for the Universe being infinite-
My Truth is that time & space=energy=infinity.
No beginning- no end.

Giltwist · 12-13-2003, 05:58 PM

I'd just like to point out a serious flaw that often crops up from those not intimate with the ins and outs of mathematics. Infinity is NOT a number, it is a concept. You can NOT treat infinity as a number. While it IS true that you could flip a coin any number of finite times and only get tails, it is NOT true that you can flip a coin an infinite number of times and always get tails. Statistics says that with an infinite number of trials, all possibilities must occur, otherwise it is not a possibility.

rsl12 · 12-15-2003, 02:44 PM

The CURRENT POPULAR MODEL of the universe is, indeed, that it is finite but expanding. raenna pointed out that there was an experiment that proved that the background microwave radiation that is constant throughout the universe--this experiment helped substantiate the big-bang theory (look up penzias and wilson in google for more info).

i may be counter-intuitive to think of the universe as finite, but consider the issue of us people before copernicus. it would appear obvious that the earth stretches in all directions as far as can be imagined, and as no edge had been found, it would seem that the world is flat and possibly infinite. but that's only if you think of the earth as having 2-dimensions. when you add the third dimension, it is clear that the world can have no edge and still be finite.

similarly with the universe. if the entire thing is curved in the 4th dimension, it can be finite and still not have an edge.

11-20-2003, 03:55 PM	#1 (permalink)
shrubbery Tilted Location: North Europe	Infinity. Fact: The universe is infinite. To get my post, you have to try to perceive the mind-boggling size that is... Ergo, there must be life on other planets. INFINITE means that at some point there must be a planet just like this one with people just like us. However improbable this might be, at some point in an infinite universe this will have to exist. And what about time? Since the universe is infinite, some place there has to be a parallell world to our where everything is the same as here. And, once again, because the universe is infinite there must also be infinite earth just like ours. This way space and time can be connected .. say the difference between one world and another one could be me sitting here and writing this text. Or it could be a single atom that is placed differently. Is these thoughts been thought before? Is there some huge logical flaw in my 'theory' that I can't find?

11-20-2003, 04:03 PM	#2 (permalink)
krazixs Psycho Location: courtin in the kitchen	yes it has. It goes along with the theory of an infinite amount of monkeys with typewriters, eventually there is a chance however small, that one of them will write Shakespeare. "Ford, could you help me out?" "What seems to be the problem?" "There's a bunch of monkey's with a script for Hamlet trying to open the door" Douglas Adams I love you. __________________ The Kender in your party has just screamed in fear. Please roll a d20 to see how many of your body parts are still identifiable.

11-20-2003, 04:11 PM	#3 (permalink)
cliche Rookie Location: Oxford, UK	shrubbery - there's a dfference between the universe being infinite, and it containing an infinite amount of matter (ie planets). Plus, if you're defining 'infinite size' by 'you can keep going forever without hitting an edge', imagine that it might be curved in another dimension - like an ant wandering on the surface of a football. So I find fault with your argument, to be honest: 1) is the universe infinite? 2) you've jumped from infinite space to infinite matter 3) if something is infinite, must it all be different? To understand (3) - if I tell you that the decimal expansion of 1/3 has an infinite number of digits; I could use the same logic you've just used to say that it must contain every digit known to man, and every possible sequence of numbers... Just because it's infinite doesn't mean it is infinitely variable. Having said all that, you could well be right (see anything on Possible Worlds. The Worlds might not be in our universe - depends how you define universe to be honest - but could be out there!) And Douglas Adams is wonderful... __________________ I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones. -- John Cage (1912 - 1992)

11-20-2003, 07:10 PM	#5 (permalink)
wilbjammin * * *	Well... here's the short of it. These questions are non-sequiturs. How does this have any effect on your life whatsoever? Without having experienced infinitity, parallel universes, etc... they are purely abstract theoretical constructs. Don't lose sight of your ability to choose and think for yourself... whether others in similiar or mirror situations would make the same decisions consistently or not does not matter. Keep yourself in focus. __________________ Innominate.

11-20-2003, 07:41 PM	#6 (permalink)
gnort Psycho Location: MA	This thread reminded me of an article that I read from Scientific American at the beginning of this year. I found this really interesting, here's an excerpt: "The simplest and most popular cosmological model today predicts that you have a twin in a galaxy about 10 to the 10^28 meters from here. This distance is so large that it is beyond astronomical, but that does not make your doppelgänger any less real. The estimate is derived from elementary probability and does not even assume speculative modern physics, merely that space is infinite (or at least sufficiently large) in size and almost uniformly filled with matter, as observations indicate. In infinite space, even the most unlikely events must take place somewhere. There are infinitely many other inhabited planets, including not just one but infinitely many that have people with the same appearance, name and memories as you, who play out every possible permutation of your life choices." And here's the rest: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...880000&catID=2 __________________ You had me at Qapla'

11-20-2003, 08:24 PM	#7 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	- Explain how .3 repeating contains every possible digit. From where I'm looking, it can only contain the digit 3 by definition and therefore by definition cannot contain all of the possible digits. - Consider this experiment - I toss a coin n times, where the nth toss is the first heads. Obviously, the possible values of n is the set of natural numbers 1, 2, 3, ... The probability of rolling a certain n=c, where c > ~20, becomes absurdly small, and approaches zero as c increases. However, it is completely possible to never toss a heads. Many people argue at this point that the probability of not tossing heads for even 30 tosses is already so close to zero that it might as well be zero. That is incorrect - since each toss is independant, I have a 1/2 chance of tossing heads in each case, regardless of how many times I have tossed the coin. So I could continue to toss tails forever. - Therefore, to assume that infinity implies that everything that could possibly exist or happen does in fact exist or happen is not concrete. __________________ Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out.

11-21-2003, 01:29 PM	#11 (permalink)
phukraut Addict	Philosophical questions have intrinsic value to some people. I like reading and responding to philosophical topics that may never add anything to my life except another perspective, or a perspective on something I've never thought about. That's good enough for me. Keep them coming!

11-21-2003, 03:28 PM	#12 (permalink)
shrubbery Tilted Location: North Europe	I don't see how you'd expect a topic to change your view on life. I just want to increase my knowledge and see how other people respond to my thoughts and if they are as logic to them as they are to me. And Kyo, drop the apathy. If you as a 'listener' aren't interested, so stay off the thread. If you say "So what.." to the question wether other life exists in the universe, you have nothing to do in a discussion board about philosophy.

11-21-2003, 08:29 PM	#13 (permalink)
VitaminH An embarrassment to myself and those around me... Location: Pants	Is it really even possible to determine that the universe is infinite? I mean, if it does have an end then that can be found via detection, exploration or whatever, but how can we ever be sure it is in fact endless? We'd never know if we'd maybe just looked a little bit furter or deeper if the end was there... __________________ "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte

11-21-2003, 11:52 PM	#15 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	Research suggests that the universe is in fact finite. http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994250 another article http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/1...eut/index.html __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

11-22-2003, 12:06 AM	#16 (permalink)
Johnny Rotten lost and found Location: Berkeley	Space is a big place. It redefines the word "big." But it does not contain all possibilities. Plus, infinity does not require repetition. Note that pi is infinite, but does not repeat a single sequence of numbers. __________________ "The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them." -- Michael Caine

11-22-2003, 06:45 AM	#17 (permalink)
TIO Addict Location: The Land Down Under	Kyo, I think you need to read up on Chaos theory. It has absolutely no relevance at all to the statement about coin-tossing with which you connected it. The equations governing physics today actually work best for a finite, unbounded universe (like the surface of a sphere). In fact, most astrophysicists believe that the universe's topology is exactly that: the surface of a hypersphere. But whether the universe itself is finite or infinite, according to physics as it stands today, it is not even possible for the amount of stuff in the universe to be infinite. In fact, there probably isn't all that much stuff in the universe at all. __________________ Strewth

11-22-2003, 06:57 AM	#18 (permalink)
Shpoop Curious Location: NJ (but just for college)	there is an infinite amount of x and y values on a graph, say x^3. However the conditions only exist once where both x and y are 0. That is the type of thing that can happen with the universe and life, not that i necessarily think that. And what if the universe isnt infinite. What if it repeats somehow like a circle. And if the universe is expanding, by definition doesnt that mean there is a border and it is finite?

11-22-2003, 10:45 AM	#19 (permalink)
happyraul Crazy Location: St. Louis, MO	So pi does not contain any arbitrary sequence of digits more than once? I don't believe it. Given that there are only ten digits, that is impossible.

11-22-2003, 10:54 AM	#20 (permalink)
krazixs Psycho Location: courtin in the kitchen	In the hopes you are being sarcastic happy, i'll just assume everyone knows that pi is a number with no end (as we know it) but that's a discussion for another time. Shpoop I had this same discussion on another board and it was generally agreed that the universe does have a border or boundray (sp?) if you will making it finite, however since it continues to grow and expand (for lack of a better term) it's size is infinite. __________________ The Kender in your party has just screamed in fear. Please roll a d20 to see how many of your body parts are still identifiable.

11-22-2003, 11:35 AM	#21 (permalink)
happyraul Crazy Location: St. Louis, MO	Um no I was not being sarcastic. There are only ten digits, if you are talking about decimal representation. They are 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9. Since pi has no end, as you say, and as we all know, it is not possible that, if given any sequence of numbers, say 123, it does not occur more than once, because as I said, and as you know, there are only ten digits. If the universe has a boundary, then what is on the outside of the boundary, and how does it differ from the inside?

11-22-2003, 03:03 PM	#23 (permalink)
phukraut Addict	Pi DOES repeat sequences of numbers. the sequence {4}_{i=1}^{i=1} is a sequence of one term. here is a sample from the expansion: ...46264... , there it is. that is a trivial example, but it's also true for larger sequences of digits. {2,3} appears several times, such as here, ...7932384..., and here, ...4592307... perhaps what Rotten meant was that Pi will never tail to a repeating single digit, like in 1/12 = 0.08333... Last edited by phukraut; 11-22-2003 at 03:07 PM..

11-23-2003, 08:15 AM	#24 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I don't know how I can find this or remember where I heard it from specifically. About 7 or 8 years ago, I think, I heard about an experiment that was done. They "aimed" a reciever of sorts at all points of the universe that they could. In every direction they received back a certain frequency at a constant strength. I think they were theorizing that the border of the universe is surrounded by this frequency or maybe even light. I wish I could remember specifics or my source. Anyone heard of something similar or have any ideas where to look? __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

11-23-2003, 01:36 PM	#25 (permalink)
Amarth Loser Location: About 50,000 feet in the air... oh shit.	Nope, but that's crazy! Really shakin' up my thought processes here.

11-23-2003, 02:13 PM	#26 (permalink)
hiredgun Addict	Well, if the Big Bang theory is true, doesn't it imply a finite amount of matter? Even if the universe is infinite, a finite amount of matter scattered in an infinite (or constantly-expanding) amount of space would not mean that there are infinite planets.

11-23-2003, 02:51 PM	#27 (permalink)
Dilbert1234567 Devils Cabana Boy Location: Central Coast CA	the univers is finite. plane and simple. __________________ Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

11-25-2003, 08:25 PM	#29 (permalink)
TheFirstDuffMan Tilted	Pi will never start repeating itself; of course you'll see the same number, or sequence of numbers more than once, infact, you'll see it infinate numbers of times. Pi is an irrational transcendental number. It contains every possible sequence of numbers infinite times. Does that make things clearer? Kyo is right.

11-26-2003, 09:03 AM	#30 (permalink)
Sho Nuff Addict Location: Harlem	Even if the universe is infinite, the likelihood of the conditions in any other part of the universe being exactly like it is here is infinitesimal. In terms of sheer probability of factors coming together to create our environment here on Earth, we are an anomaly should not exist. We also are only a short period of time in this planets existence. The majority of species on this planet are too fragile to survive common cosmic occurrences such as meteor impacts. The probability of a species this fragile growing at another point of the universe at any time, especially in the infinitesimal life span of our civilization in comparison to the universe would be nearly impossible. __________________ I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

11-26-2003, 10:12 AM	#31 (permalink)
Mantus lascivious	Well I must admit that a concept of an infinite universe sounds allot more appealing to me. It could be either one though. It should be noted though, that if the universe can be infinitely big, then it can also be infinitely small. This prospect really makes my head hurt.

11-26-2003, 12:13 PM	#32 (permalink)
feelgood Free Mars! Location: I dunno, there's white people around me saying "eh" all the time	Infinity is not something that can be put into an equation. It's only a theory. You can't just go out and point at the universe and say, "Oh, it's growing so expontially so it must be infinity size". Size is something that's measureable and hence cannot be infinity. Now when you speak of the matter in space, space is not matter. If space had matter in it, then it wouldn't be a space at all would it? In order to actually prove this, which we already did. In order to allow sound to travel from one point to another, there must be matter to allow it pass the "wave" of the sound. But when this was tested in space, sound cannot be "heard" in space. So, hence there is nothing in space, just nothing. Another point, you can't have "infinity" matter. There's limited matter or else, there really is something outside of the universe that's supplying it with more matter to allow it expand. To back that up, say you're locked in a room that suppose to simulate "space". No air, no nothing, just you and space. Something happens to you, you all of sudden exploed (just work with me). The amount of mass that original entered, would be exactly the same as the amount of mass that left the room. Again, the concept of infinity isn't something you can just measure, it's just all an idea. __________________ Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

11-30-2003, 12:49 PM	#33 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	- To begin with, one should not drop apathy. I was not being snide with that question. It is important for philosophical discussion to result in some kind of gain; I believe that philosophical discussion purely for its own sake is a waste of time and effort. There is a reason that many 'laypeople' disdain philosophy as merely an intellectual diversion. - Chaos theory in fact has quite a lot to do with my tossing of the coin. The premise in that argument is that each toss is an independant event - an assumption that chaos theory blatantly refutes. - Happyraul, you do not disagree that the probability of tossing tails on each individual toss does not decrease, regardless of the number of tails you have tossed before it. I argue that this fact alone is enough to refute the statement that the probability of tossing 30 tails in a row is so close to zero that it might as well be zero (and yes, 'in a row' being the key term). Each time you toss a coin, it is a completely isolated event. Therefore, your current toss does not 'see' how many tails you have tossed previous to this toss. The chances of you tossing a tails on your one millionth toss is equivalent to the chances of you tossing tails on your first toss. In short, my argument is that if the probability is not zero, it can not be considered zero, regardless of how close to zero it actually is. - Taken another way, we consider what actually makes the probability decrease: the number of tosses. The chance of getting any particular sequence of heads or tails decreases at an equal rate as you increase the number of tosses. Therefore, the chances of tossing any particular sequence of heads and tails goes to zero as the number of tosses approaches infinity. If you consider each sequence to be a sequence of events as they have occured in reality, the probability of our specific reality occuring is extremely close to zero - so close, in fact, that it might as well be zero by your argument. And yet, here we are. - Bypassing your 'paradoxical' 3D surface, consider just the spatial components of matter; ie. the exact location of any given particle in three dimensional space. We will assume that there are a finite number of particles, and a finite number of possible orientations of these particles into elements. However, if you claim that space is infinite, then there exists an infinite number of possibilities for the location of each particle. Therefore, I argue that my infinite-sided dice is, in fact, an acceptable analogy for this discussion, assuming that the universe is, in fact, infinite. __________________ Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out. Last edited by Kyo; 11-30-2003 at 12:52 PM..

11-30-2003, 03:30 PM	#34 (permalink)
duckznutz Addict Location: Brook Cottage, Lanark, Scotland	have to agree with Kyo . . . . . .. . many people are unable to grasp the logic that last weeks lottery numbers are as likely to appear again this week as any other sequence . . . . they prefer to beleive that last weeks sequence of numbers are 'guaranteed' NOT to re-appear. I am intrigued however by the 'law of high numbers' which appears to illustrate that normal probabilities break down for very large repetitions. Consider the number of roullette wheels spinning constantly around the world as you read this . . 24 hours a day every day for many many years. . . Now given such a massive amount of sample spins we would reasonably expect there to have been say 100 reds or blacks or evens or odds in a row by now . . . when in fact i understand the largest number of 50/50 'tosses' ever recorded is 23 reds in a row in France in the early 1970's. My point being that at very large samples the laws of probability break down, and you cannot reach any conclusions about 'infinity' or long term projections due to the fact that every day is a new day . . without any memory of the previous. __________________ Where your talents and the needs of the world cross . . there lies your vocation.

12-13-2003, 03:22 PM	#35 (permalink)
Crack Misanthropic Location: Ohio! yay!	Infinity in an of itself cannot be proved one way or the other, Infinity is ENDLESS, how can you prove something is endless or not unless you actually end it and prove it's not endless? Even Pi.. just because we have not found the end, does not mean it does not end. We assume it does not end because it has not ended yet. __________________ Crack, you and I are long overdue for a vicious bout of mansex. ~Halx

12-13-2003, 04:43 PM	#36 (permalink)
phukraut Addict	this has been covered already: Pi will never terminate. not ever. we know this. it can be derived from mathematical logic. it requires absolutely no empirical measurements. hence we can completely know if Pi will end or not.

12-13-2003, 05:35 PM	#37 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	Everybody seems to rely on belief and proof for such things as the Universe being infinite. Belief and Proof all have one underlying detail: doubt. You are out to find proof that the Universe in infinite, but since you don't have that proof, you aren't sure of it being true yet OR You believe that the Universe is infinite, yet believing is having faith and having faith is trusting that the universe being infinite is true, although you have no proof Then there is Knowing and Truth, in which neither of those contains any doubt. (You may feel deep down that the universe is infinite and that never changes for you, no matter what is told to you by other sources.) People have said that we have to have proof or believe in something in order to know or to find truth in it- doesn't corrolate. When you are told something- you believe it. ("I believe that there is a God, since Pastor told me, although I have no proof.") But when you feel something- you know it. ("I feel God deep within me, and this God is in no way cruel.") So that knowing is embedded within you, no matter what. That you hold as your Truth. Your beliefs can change, however, if you learn from another outside source of something different. So- in knowing you Truth (that which never changes, only evolves), you do not feel the need for proof or proving of your Truth. Now- can we all distinguish some of the beliefs and truths we each have? Now, you accept your truths as being your truths, right? That you always felt that way about something deep down without thinking twice about it and that nothing would change that for you? Well, does that mean they have to be the same as others' truths? So, now- let's look at it this way. beliefs and proof contains doubt, therefore, contains fear (that it may or may not be true). Then, this is why we tend to argue our views, because we tend to defend what we believe, doubt, and fear in hopes that we find proof or prove something. Hasn't gotten us anywhere thus far, now has it? NOW as for the Universe being infinite- My Truth is that time & space=energy=infinity. No beginning- no end. Last edited by :::OshnSoul:::; 12-13-2003 at 05:43 PM..

12-13-2003, 05:58 PM	#38 (permalink)
Giltwist Insane Location: Pennsylvania	I'd just like to point out a serious flaw that often crops up from those not intimate with the ins and outs of mathematics. Infinity is NOT a number, it is a concept. You can NOT treat infinity as a number. While it IS true that you could flip a coin any number of finite times and only get tails, it is NOT true that you can flip a coin an infinite number of times and always get tails. Statistics says that with an infinite number of trials, all possibilities must occur, otherwise it is not a possibility.

12-15-2003, 02:44 PM	#39 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	The CURRENT POPULAR MODEL of the universe is, indeed, that it is finite but expanding. raenna pointed out that there was an experiment that proved that the background microwave radiation that is constant throughout the universe--this experiment helped substantiate the big-bang theory (look up penzias and wilson in google for more info). i may be counter-intuitive to think of the universe as finite, but consider the issue of us people before copernicus. it would appear obvious that the earth stretches in all directions as far as can be imagined, and as no edge had been found, it would seem that the world is flat and possibly infinite. but that's only if you think of the earth as having 2-dimensions. when you add the third dimension, it is clear that the world can have no edge and still be finite. similarly with the universe. if the entire thing is curved in the 4th dimension, it can be finite and still not have an edge. __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.