Charlatan

Personally I don't believe in a God (or Gods).

I see religion as the way we as humans have managed to create meaning to death and life. Two entirely unknowable factors in human experience.

The rest of it is simply there to control our natural impulses through guilt and submission to high authortity.

I've always thought that instead of a Kingdom of Heaven where God rules, what we really need is a Republic of Heaven...

Level hirearchy and no rules dictated from above.

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Lebell

Question:

Who claimed God is unknowable?

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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louiedog

I don't like religions trying to force beliefs on other people. At my University the Christian groups put signs up that practically insult anyone that is not a Christian and tell them they should be. They chalk the walks and take up 10x more space than any other groups do, religious or not. None of the other religous groups do this. I realize some of them do it because they are trying to help and I know not all Christians do it, but it's incredibly annoying to me. I just wish they would be more accepting and take a no.

sapiens

I don't think it is possible for theists and atheists to have a rationale, logical discussion, without stepping on eachother's toes. I also think that theism and science are fundamentally opposed. Science operates on standards of logic and evidence. Theism operates on faith despite a lack of evidence.

mihal

I didn’t consider myself religious of any sense until I started practicing martial arts. Well, maybe not religious, but at least I have an idea of what I consider the divine. I discussed the idea of god and the divine with a close friend of mine, who introduced me to martial arts and introduced me to new and interesting ways of thinking, Taoism, Zen and other philosophies from the Far East. We both developed the same idea of what God might be, or at least from our point of views.

If God is divine and I am allowed to personally accept what is divine to me then I believe in God. But if God is defined as something/someone static, i.e. divinity as a static character or trait (ex. Through a scripture or authority), then I’ll have trouble believing in that God.
So, basically… If God is divine then I believe.
If God is good, bad, creator, destroyer, all knowing, merciful, or anything you define or describe then I don’t believe.

I also tend to think that fact cannot deny faith. Because no matter what you believe in, either it’s a person, a spirit, a book or a science, no one can take that away from you and no one can state a fact that will ultimately deny your faith. No one can simply say, “you don’t believe” and then expect you to not believe. It would deny the basis that we actually think.
Believe whatever you want to believe, but in the end you believe something. Because you will evidently say “but I believe/think this and that…” at some time or another.

The_Dude

btw, i'm a hindu by birth and i practice the principles in moderation.

and i dont like people that say "i'm right and you're wrong"

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WhoaitsZ

interesting.... I know two atheists in particuliar that are very nice, blunt, and rational..... and not rude when discussing religion with me.

logic does not have to be rude.

The_Dude

but what y'all believe directly contradicts each other.

religion is based on faith - believing in something w/o proof
science is mostly based on facts - the hardcore proof.

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Lebell

The_Dude,

What you say is correct. But that doesn't mean that dialogue cannot be respectful.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Freakasaurus

Here is my take on religion. I have trouble believing in a god that must be feared or that will punish us for our sins. If we were made in gods image, then he is just as fucked up as the rest of us. If so, then he/she will probably love us anyway.

My opinion of organized religion is that most were created long ago for means of controlling the poor, uneducated masses. It worked well for thousands of years. But if poeple today find direction and meaning from it, more power to them.

I only have a problem with the "Pushers". I have respect for most other people and their beliefs. If someone tells me I am going to hell because I don't repent, read the Bible or go to church, they pretty much automatically lose any respect that I would have given them.

sivo

I had to quote this. I just wish there were more people that understood this - science and religion exist for different purposes.

I personally have no problem against any spiritual views or religions but they have absolutely no place in government, or law.

For the record I am a 'weak atheist'/agnostic, I don't believe God doesn't exist, I simply lack any belief in the existance of any gods.

Ashton

ARTelevision

my feelings about religion are so personal - they don't really form an "objective" view.

It's a strong personal bias, so I state that in front.

I learned about religion from nuns, back in a day when they were medieval torturers - mental and physical.

They were the most joyless, screwed up, dysfunctional, cruel and perverse beings I have ever encountered. They still hold my lifetime record for that.

Besides constant nasty harping, they routinely hit us about the head, threw things at us, made us kneel for hours in front of statues of mary with our hands outstretched or between our knees and the floor.

You don't want to hear what I think of religion...

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Lebell

Sorry Art

I've got some nun stories too, nothing overly saddistic, but unpleasant nontheless.

My greatgranddad swore the priest molested him as a young boy, but who believed such things back in the early 1900's?

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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harry

Hi!

I'm a Roman Catholic on paper, allthough I never really believed in God or any supernatural being. I have always been reluctant to officially leave the Church - im an Austrian, so maybe Catholicism is in my bones or something.

For me being a Christian is more a matter of philosophy than religion. I am convinced the world would be much better a place if everyone lived by the rules that Jesus taught his followers. I try to share what I have, I accept others the way they are, I commit myself for what I think is right. I try to be a good person and the New Testament gives me a set of rules on how to do that.

If other people need some incentive (i.e. eternal live in heaven) to do the right things, thats okay by me, though I suspect its just wishfull thinking. Nonetheless I'll be pleasantly surprised if it all turns out to be true.

So I guess I'm a confused catholic agnostic. Shoot me.

ARTelevision

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.
That being said,
One of my majors as an undergrad was religion! (the other was physics).
I would have majored in philosophy but I had already read the history of philosophy on my own and the dept. was substandard so I took religion. I'm vastly interested in philosophy and see religion as philosophy when studied from without. I just eschew as many "beliefs" as possible - I have always been this way.
So - I'm interested in religion as philisophy but not as a system of personal belief for myself. It's not the only system of personal belief by a long shot. It looks to me like most humans can't exist without a bunch of beliefs - which for me are unnecessary...

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PataQ

Religion = Escapism for people who can't deal with reailty.

"Religion is the opiut of the people" -- If I told you who I just quoted, you'd ignore what I've just said an hail me a communist spy like any Uncle Sam-loving American would *big sigh*

that, ladies and gentlemen is Karl Marx.

It's in his doctrine.

Read Das Kapital if you're interested. Quite frankly a Marxist/Communist system just wouldn't work anyway, Ideally, In a perfect world, It would, but as long as there's still currency/commodities, theres still greed, and as long as there's greed, there's corruption, and as long as there's corruption, our little ideal Utopian society will never happen.

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The_Dude

i never said i dont respect them or i dont have a good conversation w/ them.

i do have pretty decent converstions w/ my friends about this stuff, but i question them on the inside.

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sivo

My problem is the values that christianity push are not necessarily any better morally - if we all had to observe christian ethics there would be no homosexuality, sex before marriage, and a whole slew of other things that are only bad because 'God said so' (or were quite possibly added in by the Church at some point) - this can lead many people to the wrong conclusions about things, example being 'that homosexuals are bad people'

There may be another religion without the gratuitious values but still promotion of kindness as the 'be a good person' mantra is certainly not unique to christianity. Although it would be nice if everyone was kind and considerate to one another, it is unrealistic - it would never happen even if religion was universal. Many people are just naturally self-orientated.

I think religion is only a personal weakness if people believe they have no reason to live without it, or that is alright to kill/rape/torture if they won't be eternally punished, or if they will only do kind things because of the lure of an eternal reward. It is certainly not running away from the "truth" (that we live in a materialistic world, also please note the quotation marks) - it is quite possible that we don't and will never be able to figure out the metaphysical truth to the universe to know for sure.

$0.02

PataQ

values so quickly change into rules... welcome to the roman catholic church :P

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Simple_Min

No man hath seen God at any time (John 1:18)

No man can see God and live (Ex. 33:20).

God is great, and we know him not (Job 36:26).


I also suggest this website to everyone:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

PataQ

and carrying on from what sivo said, i've recently had an extremely strange experiance, one you may describe as meta physical, it's a long story, but cut extremely short, a woman who's been through so much bad has still come out on top, myself and her other close friends label her a miracle, she's been through so much and asks nothing in return, her best friend even describes her as an angel, i dont know anymore

up until 5 days ago i was a through and through athiest, i lived my life, and my life was governed by the law of physics, science and logic, however what i experianced a few days ago defies all that i've been taught to beleive in.

im leaving alot out here, as it's 4:30am, but she touched me, not physically, or emotionally, but what you'd describe as metaphysically.

i felt her in my chest and probing my mind, it was an amazing experiance, and then she squeezed my heart, i nearly passed out due to the rush of blood, it felt like exactly how you'd imagine somebody squeezing your heart with their hand, except for the fact there was no pain.

she was worried the minute she "saw" inside my chest, and she started to plead for me to loose some weight (im 26stone, that's around 360lbs)

she showed me where the blockages were by almost "plucking" my veins, she also plucked the face of my heart (the side facing my ribs) - where people have heart bypass operations...

that part of it was quite painful, more painful than any bout of angina i'd felt in the past (self diagnosis, but seems the most logical).

and then she called in her best friend, for reasons in her past she could never do anything other than "show" other people, especially people she cares greatly about (basically, she nearly killed somebody through complete hatred, but again, long story).

when her best friend came in, it was a most curious sensation, cold, stone cold, he entered my chest and... wow... i can still recall the feeling vividly, it was like my entire chest was flooded with ice, extremely cold, and then the next thing i know im practically on the floor after he went for my heart, i was scared out of my mind, i trust the guy, but not half as much as her, i didnt know what was going on, my heart was racing, my chest was cold....

she pulled him out in a rush... he'd healed me. he has but 1/100th of the power she has, but he still managed to heal me, since then i've been doing things i havent been able to do in years, now, obviously alot of its psychological, but i havent had a bout of the self diagnosed angina doing things that would normally give me it. i dont know what this whole things about, and why she chose me to share her gift with (she's only shared it with 3 people in her life, including me)

but i know theres something not normal about her.... i cant bring myself to say that she's an angel or a saint, i simply cant, but her best friend believes she is, i know one thing, she's got a gift, and a big one at that, she managed to keep herself alive using her gift for 45mins after her heart had stopped beating, honest to god, her medical records prove it.

and then the next night came along....

she didnt warn me this time, she just "came in"

she filled my chest with warmth again, more than the last nights (ill get onto that in a minute), then, a most bewildering feeling, i felt everything in my chest "move", it's extremely hard to describe, its almost asif everything was pushed to the walls of the chest cavity to make room, and then it came... my heart was pounding wildly, i honestly thought i was having a heart attack, it was an extremely fast beat, if you imagine the normal beep: .....beep......beep......beep....... then mine was beepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeep

i was so worried, but then, i listened
it wasnt my heart atall, or rather, it was a second heart. she'd sent me her heart beat. i cant explain it... it felt like i had 2 hearts, i could feel it beating in my chest just like my one, both pumping, each one so loudly i hear it as my 1 heart just going full pelt, but it was amazing, my whole body filled with her.... energy... i can only explain it as that... i was warm all over, but it was hotter than any fire, hotter than any molten steel at a steel works factory, it was the most intense heat you could feel, but it didnt hurt, not at all, and i wasnt perspiring, it was overwhelming, it consumed me, for 6 hours, i was in this bubble of warm listening to her heart beat with mine, it was bliss, it was this pure feeling of bliss. i dont know how to describe it, all my troubles just vanished, everything just seemed to "stop meaning anything" for those 6 hours, i didnt have a care in the world, it was amazing...

this is all i can say so far, as that was 2 nights ago (including this evening)

it's a whole new level of intimacy i experianced with an extremely close friend who means more to me than anything in this world, and who i care about with all my heart (not in any romantic way, we're just extremely close friends)

i still dont see why i deserve this honour.... im not different than the adverage joe, infact i consider myself less, i've done quite a few bad things in my life, certainly things that wouldnt get me into "heaven", but i dont know now

it's like i know nothing anymore, the universe is suddenly so much bigger, and i keep asking these questions, i cant think of anything else but that of what happend to me, it's rather disturbing, i've even found myself questioning my sanity (something i could never wish upon anybody, a most disturbing feeling).

but, i think im still sane, she's lived with it for 20 years, and so has her best friend, why does suddenly finding out make me want to bring everything in life to a hault so i can re-evaluate reality??

i just dont know anymore...

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phoenix1002

Sometimes, the cynic in me thinks that the world would be a better place without organized religion. The religious groups do a lot of good things... but they also do quite a few bad things in the name of religion. Just think of all the wars that have taken place in the name of religion. Organized religion can also lead to ignorance. It disturbs me when I hear that some places in the south do not teach evolution. I don't care if they do not agree with it, but it is currently the accepted scientific belief, and not teaching it to students only hurts the students. It is possible to still be religious, yet believe in evolution, and other things strongly backed by science.

I don't see science as disproving supernatural things. Everything I've learned in my science classes has made sense, and I accept as truth. However, I've also seen things that don't really have any sort of scientific proof. I have seen a girl forced down onto her knees, unable to walk any closer to a cross. This was a rather extreme scenario, which I cannot really describe, but it happened in one of the holiest places I have ever been. I honestly do not think she was faking this. Also, I wonder what the scientific proof would be for PataQ's experience. Sometimes people attempt to use science to make sense of something, but it doesn't work. I don't see this as disproving anything, rather I see it as more proof to the existence of the supernatural.

The whole idea behind most religions is faith. Faith works without scientific proof, so calling someone ignorant or foolish because they believe in something that cannot be proven is doing them a great injustice. Do you love someone? How can that be proven, scientifically? To my knowledge, it cannot. But I do not question that love still exists. Does this make me ignorant, or stupid?

I am not really sure of my own beliefs at this point in my life. By name, I am a United Methodist. However, I am not sure if I really believe everything that goes along with Methodism.

My beliefs, such as they are, seem to be pretty close to Alpha Phi's. I think there is some higher being/power, and I suspect it is the same as the one in most religions around the world, whether it is called God, Allah, or any other name. Any underlings are what would be called in the Christian faith angels, and possibly devils or demons. I think treating other people well and helping those in need is more important than what religion you put yourself under.

I respect those with strong faith, in some ways I envy them, as they have found something, a belief in something, that I have not. However, when I see faith cloud rationality, that is when I am afraid, because irrational actions in the name of faith tend to be some of the worst actions ever done in history.

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Lebell

If you're gonna quote the Book, you should crack it open and read it for yourself.

Now for the whole verse:

No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son who is close to the Father's heart who has made him known. (John 1:18)

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Jadey

First, I must say it's refreshing to see a serious discussion of religion here that hasn't gotten too out of hand. Regardless of their beliefs people have a tendency to get very defensive when this type of discussion comes up, as well they should (just like politics, but that's another discussion).

Personally, I don't really follow any particular religion, thought like several of you involved in this discussion I do have my own beliefs. But, in an effort to stay brief, I would have to say that I do not hold it against anyone or think them "inferior" for whatever they may believe. I fact, I feel very strongly that everyone must have faith in something. But, what bothers me most is when others try to push thier beliefs on others. And this holds true on both a personal level and also on a much larger scale. Living in the US we have seen a backlash recently against people who hold true to the tenets of Islam, and we have seen the actions of a president openly displaying his Christian beliefs in an attempt to, in part, sway public opinion. Far too often throughout history religion has been used as a tool, and the word of God (whatever God that may be) has been bastardized for political or economic gain.

In my opinion, religion should be an internal thing. A frame upon which ones builds their manners, attitudes, actions, etc.

PataQ

Jadey: yeah I think you're right..


btw the girl i was talking about beleives in a higher power, and tha things happen for a reason, gotta run, customer just wlaked in the door!

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Simple_Min

Now, I have yet to meet a christian who has "read" the christian Book for hisself, much less the Books of other religions to know for certain he is in the right line to "salvation."

But thank you for posting the whole line...So is anyone here the supposed son of god? Oh alright.

Lebell

Pleased to meet ya

I'm not entirely sure what "salvation" is, or if Christianity is the only road to it, I just know what works for me.

Hey man, you're the one who started throwing around Bible verses. And yes, the Son's and Daughters of God are very much present, if you just open your eyes

Where is God?

-Brother Theophane

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Mango

Organized religion blows goats. It causes more wars and hardship than anything else. I am religious but do not subscribe whole heartedly to any one religion.

Simple_Min

Pleased to hear it; a christian knowing what christianity is about, hopefully.



Agreed, and that's how it should be.

Well, I'm not a missionary, if that's what you're suggesting.

You asked "who said god is unknowable" and I did a little research and posted what you should have already known.


The Christian faces this dilemma: if he wishes to retain the notion of a supernatural being, he must insist that god's nature is incomprehensible. On the other hand, if the Christian wishes to escape the plight of agnosticism-which he must to give meaning to the concept of god.

The National Christian Almanac offers a list of properties of god: god is almighty, eternal, holy, immortal, incomprehensible , just, loving, omnipotent, omnipresent, ...

--George H. Smith

Lebell

No, that's not what I'm suggesting.

DUDE!

Quite worrying about quoting OTHER people! What do YOU think??

Also, incomprehensible and unknowable are two different things.

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Simple_Min

Is it so terrible to quote someone else? Oh i don't think all these bibles would have been written if it was "quite worrying" to quote others.


.
Shoot, I don't mean to be quoting someone else AGAIN, but I cannot help it.

in·com·pre·hen·si·ble:

Difficult or impossible to understand or comprehend; unintelligible: incomprehensible jargon.
Impossible to know or fathom: incomprehensible mysteries.

un·know·a·ble:

Impossible to know, especially being beyond the range of human experience or understanding: the unknowable mysteries of life


That aside, being unable to comprehend would lead to the loss of all the properties associated with the monotheistic god.

Moreover, being unable to know is a derivative of the above.

Lebell

Your answers to your questions are in your own words, if you just look.

Good luck

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wg2000

I'm not a follower of it, but I've been studying various religions lately and I find Gnosticism (not to be confused with agnostics) fascinating.

Gnosticism is an offshoot of Christianity that believes that the God of the Old Testament, the creator of the physical universe as we know it, is not the True God. They believe that this creator was a flawed being itself, thus why the universe is flawed (i.e. all life must consume other life to survive, hence death and suffering are universal).

They also believe that the God in the New Testament is the True God, and that Jesus was sent to show us how to transcend this existence and eventually move on to the next level.

I've probably completely butchered the explanation , so there is a better one here: http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

Really interesting stuff; definitely a different perspective than most religions.

harry

Obviously one has to distinguish between "original" Christian Values and the teachings of the Catholic Church. I think Jesus, the way he is portraied in the New Testament, was an exceptional human-being (or more than that, i dont know) and his thoughts and teachings on "how to be good" are still valid and always will be.

The Catholic as well as the Orthodox churches merit is to have spread these values all over the world and to have preserved them through the centuries. Unfortunately they came up with such things as the crusades and more recently the "impeccability" of the pope (had to look that one up, not sure if I got it right). I wonder if John Paul II has any idea how many children died of AIDS because of his ban on contraception, and if he sleeps well.

Yes, but that shouldnt keep the rest of us from trying to do the right things, should it? Many early Christians have gone to quite some lengths to make that point.


Hm... I guess I have to agree. Actually I tend to believe early religions and cults might have been a way for priests/chieftains to gain some extra authority and power over their people ("kiss my ass or got to hell" :-)

So what if Jesus, Mohammed & the other guys did the same thing? Did they make up all the stuff about God and the afterlive , so their personal value-systems and philosophies would have some chance to gain followers and momentum?

I think I'll make that my official theory concerning the origin of religion from now on. Either that or aliens.

pseudopsycho

I am an atheist. Don't believe in god, don't believe in organized religion of any sort. Religion seems more like a cult to me than anything else.

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hammer4all

"Religion is a cage made from other men's thoughts." --Duane Alan Hahn

JumpinJesus

At one point in my life, I loved debating religion. Nothing pleased me more than upsetting my fundamentalist friends by denouncing everything they believed in and grinning while they professed sadness at the loss of my soul. We'd do this at least once a week.

I did not believe in god. I still don't. How I'm different now is that I don't much enjoy discussing it anymore. Not that I've become apathetic towards the discussion, I've just lost the interest in debating a circular issue, one with no beginning and no end.

I've lost my contempt for Christians and others who believe in a supreme being. I no longer hate religion, I just don't agree with it.

However, what I do continue to detest is the hypocrisy of many of our nation's "moral" leaders, i.e. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and their ilk.

I will never tire of denouncing them. But it's not their religion I'm denouncing; it's their lack of any spiritual foundation for their morality. They use religion as their weapon to attack that which they personally do not like and make the claim they speak for Christians when they do so. This is what I despise.

I believe that these are the very people who have made religion such a sore subject for many people.

I feel as though I've taken the thread on a tangent. My apologies if I have.

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annie1

Definately not a religious person... just things that are proven fact in science that are not believed in certain religions keeps me from having any interest

j_o_brown

Who is your God?

The earth is a big place. There are many people, cultures and societies with different beliefs in God, religion and spirituality.

What do you (or don't) believe in?

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JB

May the Force be with you...