cheetahtank2

I find it very hard to believe that everything happens for a reason yet at the same time so many things happen that seem to prove this idea and an equal number to disprove it... Is it possible that there are no coincidences? that everything happens for a reason? That every genecide that has occured had rhyme and reason to it? That there is a reason children who have never done anything to anyone are abducted, raped, tortured, and or killed? Or do we all make our own destinies and things that appear to be "miracles" are simply coincidences and nothing more...? This is something I cant stop thinking about recently and I would greatly appreciate some insight and perspective on the matter.

levite

I can't really offer answers, of course. But this is what I believe:

I think that our existence is defined by the junction point of three forces: a divine plan ("destiny," if you will, but since I believe in God, I prefer the term "divine plan"), the randomness/chaos which is an integral component of the physical universe, and human free will. I believe that all existence is a complex and ceaseless series of subtle balances and rebalances of these three forces interacting.

I believe that the divine plan is much looser than some would have us believe (e.g., I believe God intended that the physical universe evolve sentient, reasoning beings capable of being dialogue partners with Him; that it turned out on this planet that the beings in question are hominids, or even mammals at all, is entirely unimportant. I think God would be just as satisfied if evolution had favored, say, dinosaurs, and this response was being written by a Velociraptor Europaensis Sapiens rabbinical student), but it does exist. If God has a part for you to play, you'll end up playing it. But because of your free will, you won't play that part until you choose to do it: tomorrow, decades from now, or maybe in another lifetime. But sooner or later, you will. We all will. Likewise, God may have designed the universe to favor certain kinds of instances coming up, in order for people to deal with them. In other words, some things may happen for a reason. But some things don't.

I think chaos/randomness plays a big part: I believe in evolution, and I believe in "ill chance," and I believe in natural disasters that are just nature. God/destiny is not directly responsible for every action in the universe. And a lot of what happens in our lives is the result of human free will. I don't think genocides or wars or rape campaigns are just destiny/God at work, any more than destiny/God gets the credit for Einstein figuring out relativity or Martin Luther King choosing nonviolent resistance, or Salk and company coming up with the vaccine for polio. Humans decide what they are going to do to one another, or for one another, because that's how I believe God designed them: independent, thinking, reasoning beings, capable of directing their own lives.

Free will is kind of the wild card. God has plans, but wants independent beings other than Himself. The universe is chaotic, but we tend to desire order (although what we consider to be "order" can vary pretty widely). We have many of the best qualities of our Creator within us, but also some of the worst. We often do not do what is good for ourselves or for others. But sometimes we are spectacularly selfless and giving.

Why do things happen the way they do? Depends.

I recognize that the above cannot be scientifically validated. It is a metaphysical philosophy, not a laboratory experiment. I don't require everyone to believe it, or even anyone else but me. But it makes sense to me. And if it helps you make sense out of things...so much the better.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Cynosure

I think that the "randomness/chaos" is what's left when God is not in total, absolute control of everything in the universe. And why is God not in total, absolute control of everything in this universe? Because, God has given over the universe to mankind (and to whatever other intelligence life might be out there), so that we can have free will.

The OP mentioned atrocities in our world such as genocide, and such as the abduction, rape, torture, and/or murder of children. Well, that is the primarily the result of human evil (which itself is a result of mankind's rebellion against, and separation from, God), and secondarily the result of chaos (i.e. a victim being in the wrong place at the wrong time), and thus has little if anything to do with God, directly. But that's what sometimes happens when God is not in total, absolute control of everything. That is the price of free will. (And, oh, what a heavy and terrible price it is! But, evidently, free will is that important.)

cheetahtank2

Interesting idea here...I could be wrong but what I take from this is that your saying it doesnt have to be just one or the other (a plan or chaos) but rather both with the addition of human free will. I like this idea...Would you accept the idea that it's human free will that creates this randomness/chaos? or is this randomness/chaos a force that exists on its own?

levite

For me, randomness/chaos is an element of the universe, a physical requirement. I would more or less equate it with the laws of thermodynamics and conservation of energy. I think human beings can act in disorderly ways-- ways that don't help us improve the contexts of our lives in the universe-- but they are not, ultimately and en masse, responsible for the existence of randomness/chaos.

Where human free will really comes in, philosophically, is as an answer to theodicy. Because while I would say that we can blame God, as Creator, for a universe that causes us inconveniences or even tragedies as a result of evolution (e.g. plagues, predators, etc.) or of natural processes (i.e., 'natural disasters'), those things are, in a philosophical sense, unfortunate, but not evil. Real evil is the result of human free will. Real evil is not people who die in hurricanes or from AIDS-- those things are terrible, but not evil. Real evil is all the people in the Congo who murder and rape each other during the course of civil war, or the terrorists who walk into cafes and shopping malls and blow themselves up in the name of holy politics, or the Nazi doctors who experimented for curiosity's sake on the Jews, Gypsies, gay people, Poles, and whoever else pissed off Hitler's sensibilities that day. Evil requires intent, premeditation. Something that Nature, in its random chaos, lacks.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Cynosure

Why should chaos be a requirement? Can you not imagine a perfect universe where chaos is not necessary? Randomness would still be desirable, however.

For example, one can design and program a computer application, such as a simulation or a game, with elements of randomness in it, but one would never want chaos in that application. Chaos in a computer application would be considered to be poorly conceived algorithms or sloppily written code, or to be outright errors, i.e. "bugs". Randomness in a simulation or a game stimulates, challenges and pleases the end users. Chaos pisses them off and makes them not want to use that application.

optik_nerve

Would that be human error? Poor programming = faulty program. Not necessarily an element of chaos but a shitty program that doesn't function properly that could be fixed by human intervention.

Agreed. It's that equal balance of order and disorder. This brings me to this idea. What if what we call "chaos" and observe chaos as, is just a great deal of order that we can't possibly understand or even begin to comprehend. Therefore our, and I use this term loosely, "ignorance" is put off to the theory of chaos because we don't see it for what it is meant to be.

Cynosure

It can be both: chaos and human error. As is a multi-car traffic wreck during rush hour.

How do we know there is any kind of balance of chaos and order, in the universe? And what (if not who) is responsible for or even capable of maintaining that balance?

levite

I'm not sure you can have true randomness without a certain kind of chaos resulting. Maybe the problem we're confronting here is semantic: when I say chaos, I mean randomness or unpredictability that can sometimes result in negative consequences for living beings, and occasionally will result in positive consequences for living beings. To me, "randomness" is a neutral word, implying neutral results. Chaos to me is essentially the same phenomenon, but with an acknowledgment of danger or risk.

In other words, God, being omnipotent, could design a universe that evolves sentient beings (evolution requiring elements of randomness) without there being unpleasant consequences of entropic degradation or other natural phenomena-- i.e., the breakdown of living systems with age, illness, violent predation, etc.-- but He didn't: rather we got our universe, where randomness sometimes has teeth. I presume He did so because there was a good reason, of which I admit I am ignorant. That would be where the "faith" part of faith comes in.

In the sense of chaos you are apparently meaning: sloppy design, poor execution, unreliable systems, etc., I am not sure I think such is part of our universe at all; so I might well be in agreement with you there, Cynosure.

As to the notion of randomness/chaos being "in the eye of the beholder," that the order is there, we just lack the perspective to see it, I am perfectly willing to entertain the possibility. I am just not sure we can attain the perspective to see it accurately while still living within this plane of existence. And that being the case, it makes little functional difference to me whether the randomness in the universe is truly random or merely appears to be random.

But I do believe there is a certain balance to the universe. In many ways, and about many things, one among them being chaos and order. If there were no balance at all, there would be no order. Chaos would overwhelm everything. Or if it were balanced too far in the opposite direction, the universe would be so ordered it would be static, and life as we know it would be impossible. To some degree, I think Nature-- that is, the universe itself as it was designed to function by God-- keeps the balance itself, seeking equilibrium. To some degree, I think God steps in from time to time and adjusts the balance-- that would be the purpose of revelations, I suppose. And to some degree, the balance is still imperfect: we ourselves must work to rebalance it at an equilibrium. That is part of what we are here to do. In Judaism, we refer to this idea as tikkun olam, the responsibility of people to heal, repair, and set right the universe.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

YamiYasha

I think this question is faulty in itself. While the idea of order and chaos are intuitive to me, they make no sense in this argument.

Order and chaos is relative to who you are, what you believe in, your relationship to the event, etc...

Order just means it follows a rule. Chaos means that it doesn't.
In Nature, though objects hardly ever follow any rules. No 2 objects are the same in general. That's why they're 2 objects. There's chaos in everything because we don't know something about it. There's order in everything because we can generalize what we do know about it. Order and Chaos is not inherent.

IMO, it has nothing to do with God. but then again, I'm atheist. People attribute too many things to God in general. but I respect Levite's explanation and can see his rationalization.

roachboy

i don't see anything more absolute about terms like order or chaos than i do about the term "here"...

that said, i quite like levite's posts above. they remind me a little of alfred north whitehead's "process and reality." kinda neo-platonist. nice.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite