vanblah

So, I am a quiet atheist. I have a 5-year-old daughter who has been asking lots of questions about heaven, hell, God and the Devil. I tend to get too pedantic when talking about these subjects so I've been thinking about enrolling her in Bible school.

The thing is that atheism is MY choice but it doesn't have to be HER choice. Since it's something that can have such a major impact in her life I think she should have all the information. If I am the only one giving her the information then it's decidedly one-sided.

However, I don't want her to be indoctrinated into any one particular denomination (read: brainwashed); I want everything to be her choice. In fact, this is partly another reason for attending Bible school. When she's a teenager I want her to be able to have good defense against "cult" behavior. I have a couple of friends who's parents were/are atheist and they've joined some wacky cults (some Christian based, others not). Of course, not all my friends with agnostic/atheist parents joined cults.

Are there any other non-religious (atheist or agnostic) parents here at the TFP that have done something like this?

To clarify something that has been misconstrued:


(EDIT: This should have been in Parenting. My apologies.)
(EDIT: Thanks for moving it.)

Willravel

5 is, in my humble opinion, way too young for religion. I am going to wait myself in allowing my daughter to attend churches until she is about 11 or 12. When a child is 5 years old, his or her brain is still in early development. Often, children this age can have things like imaginary friends, fear of specters or the dark, and such. While children that age do have some rudimentary intuitive grasp of logical concepts, but is still very much crude. Also, it is very, very easy for children this age to believe in magical increase, decrease, and disappearance. In other words, their reality is growing, but is not by any means solid. As perceptions dominate judgment and not the other way around yet, in my opinion a child of 0-8 or 9 would be unable to make a reasonable decision about the nature of the universe, be it theological or otherwise.

If you're interested in teaching your child morals, the Bible or other religious texts can be useful. Parables can be effective tools so far as instilling a sense of right and wrong. Also, you can filter out the good morals in the Bible (golden rule) vs. the bad morals (genocide).

This is still the preoperational period and as such should be treated with great care.

The_Jazz

Max is probably going to go to Catholic schools at least through the 5th grade. My wife's Catholic, and it's important to her. Me, not so much. She says that she knew she was going to marry me the night of our 4th date (I think) when I said that we could babtise the kids Catholic (she would have been happy with babtism at all) so long as they're raised Cubs fans.

It sounds like a joke, but it's not. She's a Sox fan, and I'll disown any of my kids that pull for them or the Cardinals. THAT'S more important to me than religion (or my substitution for religion).

Kids will be exposed to reglion from an early age (especially Catholicism in my part of the world). I think that it's important for them to know at least the basics so that they learn the background stories that are important in our culture. I don't want Max to be the kid that raises his hand in the 2nd grade and say "who's this Jesus guy that you just mentioned?"

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Glory's Sun

This is a tough spot. My wife's parents and my parents would like for our son and daughter to go to christian school. I am an atheist. I don't want to put my children into an arena that downs every religion other than their own. I would prefer the environment to encourage learning and making choices on your own.

I will be sending our kids to a private yet unreligious school as kids get enough religious influence from their grandparents

Jazz: I'm the same way as I'm a Red Sox fan and I've said that my kids can be whatever they want to be except for skankees fans. If they ever say they like the yankees they are out of my house

vanblah

I don't need the Bible or any other religious dogma to teach morals or right from wrong. My concern lies mainly in making sure she has a well-rounded basis for when she makes the choice to be religious, atheist or agnostic. I can not give that to her.

As for 5-years-old being too young for religion, I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY agree with you, although it's somewhat of a generalization. However, two of her best friends (both 5) consistently spout rhetoric at her OR WORSE.

For instance, she and a friend were coloring one day. My daughter asked her friend for the blue crayon. Her friend responded with:

"Jesus doesn't want you to have the blue crayon."

What the fuck is that? I'm not making it up. This kid was not making a joke. She was very serious about it. My daughter said, "What?" (actually she said, "Hunh?" which is something that we're working on but that's a different story). The little girl said it again. This is EXACTLY what happens when a 5-year-old is "indoctrinated" into ANY religion.

I have many other examples of these kinds of dialogs. The bottom line is, when my daughter asks me to explain these things I find myself unable to.

So Will, I agree with you about the age thing. I just don't know what to do. The questions are getting harder for me to explain or circumvent. She's persistent. Questions are a good thing. I don't want to become frustrated and discourage the questions.

What if the grandparents are agnostic/atheist too? My parents are atheist. My in-laws are smart enough to mind their own business about religion and politics in my house (as am I in theirs).

My wife is agnostic.

pig

vanblah,

could you not introduce her to another outlet for a religious education? i think she's going to be against some level of indoctrination in a christian school; perhaps you could attend religious services of different faiths with her. that's particularly nice if you have any friends of those faiths who might take y'all / her. i sort of enjoy going to different services every so often now; i find it to be an interesting experience.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

vanblah

I'm not sending her to a school for religious education. I probably should have said SUNDAY school rather than BIBLE school.

We've already decided on a "regular" (public) school for her. Most of the private schools around here are affiliated with some religion or another so we've ruled all of those out. I just want a once-a-week thing for her at this point.

My apologies.

pig

you have to enroll? i always just sort of went. anyways, i thought you were packing her ass off to christian academy. a mite bit different. where are your wifes parents? in town by any chance?

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

ngdawg

My kids go to their father's protestant church, are involved with the youth group there and are making their confirmation later this year.
They've been going since they were about 4; I have no problem with it because by exposing them to it all, they have the tools to decifer it all. My daughter questions the existence of God, doesn't want to make her confirmation really, but doesn't want to upset her dad.
As for 5 being too young, I disagree. It's not brainwashing, where you'd have to have her 'retrained'. Any reputable church organization will understand what children are able to grasp-they're not all of the 'do this or burn in Hell, Heathen!' way of thinking.
Of course, there will be questions, not unlike those about Santa or rainbows or monsters under the bed. By the time she's 11 or 12, unless she has a close religious friend, she'll have no interest in going, thus no interest in learning and deciding.
As for the "Jesus doesn't want you to have the blue crayon", I don't find this much different than saying "Santa saw you do that bad thing". That's more coming from the parents than the church.( I mean, she's 5, right? That age, everything is taken as reality when there's no opposing viewpoint) If you allow your kids to experience religion, while revealing your own take on it (without being preachy yourself), you open up an honest dialogue and give them a great opportunity to really think and learn.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Willravel

'Grampa' is a pastor, so my daughter knows a bit about religion. I try to give her very generalized, even vague answers when she asks. "What's god?" I answer, "Some people think god is a powerful man who created the universe. Other people think he is a story like Gulliver or Charlotte (the talking spider)." The idea is to explain to them that some people believe one thing and some people don't. It's important for children to understand that mommy and daddy will never, ever lie to them, and give them the best truth we know how. The truth is that a lot of people do believe and a lot of people don't, and if your kid has an understanding that there is no decisive word on the subject, he or she can enter into the situation with what I consider reasonable skepticism.
And when they grow up to be zealots, people don't know why. It's quite simple. I could have just as easily grown up that way. I'm very, very lucky that I have an innate skeptical nature that eventually broke free. Encourage your daughter to be assertive and not to allow the fear of god to be used to lord (no pun intended) things over her. Jesus wants us all to use the blue crayon, after all.


Edit: I would consider speaking briefly to the parents of the little bible thumper about appropriate behavior in school and maybe the actual teachings of Jesus Christ, which obviously do not include dogma concerning Crayola. That kid could grow up to be the next Pat Robertson, or President Bush.
With children, I find it's important to err on the side of honesty when in doubt. Stick with that and do your best. I'm sure she'll grow up to be well adjusted and intelligent enough to make up her own mind when the time comes. Just don't be too atheist (crapping on theism) around her early on, as that could present something for her to rebel against when she's a teen. You don't want her to become a theist as her way of becoming independent. I'd say it's best if she decides to become theistic out of her own search fvor meaning to her life or the universe. It's healthier, anyway.

Best of luck.

vanblah

I don't do that around anyone.

Thanks to everyone for all the comments. I appreciate them.

Jinn

I don't understand being an atheist and wanting to provide your children any religious education beyond the general information. While you think you might being more "open-minded" by exposing them to Christianity, what about others religions? You're implicitly telling her that those aren't important.

I'd go with honesty about your beliefs. If she feels the need for a Divine Being, your belief will not prevent it.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

vanblah

I agree with you. However, we live in the United States which is without a doubt a Christian-dominant country. She is more likely to have questions about the Christian God rather than Buddha or Vishnu.

It will be up to ME to tell her that other religions can be just as valid as Christianity--when she is OLDER. This is part of the problem at the moment. She's asking questions about God and in the course of my answer I start talking about other religions etc. Before I know it, I've confused her even further.

That's MY problem.

Just because I am atheist doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge the validity of the God argument.

As far as your last statement, what I'm trying to prevent is what Will touched on above. I don't want her to use religion as a form of rebellion. I've already been honest with my beliefs. I have told her I don't believe in God.

Charlatan

I would never dream of sending my kids to a religious school. That said, I have been very clear that they should make up their own minds about religion.

My wife is religious (believes in God but not organized religion and comes from a religious family).

My wife does prayers with the kids. Takes them to church on occasion. Answers their questions about God. For my part, when asked, I am very clear that I do not believe there is a God. This stressed out my son when he was little as he didn't think I was going to be in heaven with the rest of them when we were all dead.

In the end, it will be up to him to decide which path he wants to take.

I simply see no need to immerse him in a school environment that would attempt to indoctrinate him.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

vanblah

Thanks, Charlatan, I tried to clarify my meaning in a later post. Maybe I should add it to my original post.

Her father lives in town and is agnostic as far as I can tell. Her mother lives about 4 hours away and says she is religious but does not go to church.

My mother lives here and is atheist. My father lives about 4 hours away and is also atheist.

Charlatan

Understood.

Then, yes, I would expose the kids to Sunday school. Just make sure that you don't over do your reticence to discuss atheism with them. Make sure they are aware of your beliefs as well as the alternatives.

My approach is to give them as much information as possible (within reason) and let them make up their own minds on the subject.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Willravel

To clarify, a 5 year old is as likely to believe in Darth Vader as god, so even if you want your kids to believe in god, it makes more sense to introduce them later. It gives the belief meaning.

Deltona Couple

Unfortunately, while I agree with Will about 5 being too young to arbitrarily send to a church or religious center, your statement above is exactly why 5 ISN'T too young. Children in ANY type of public location are going to be exposed to all forms of religious attitudes. This is our melting pot of religion.

I am Baptist, and have my own beliefs, but I am VERY happy that I can accept ANY other persons religious beliefs as their own, without bias or feeling of "you are crazy!" So I feel that I can possibly offer some advice.

As a background, as I said, I am Baptist, but I do not attend church on a regular basis. I don't like the way church tries to force this stuff down your throat, and prefer a person to develop their OWN opinions, as it seems that you are doing, and I applaud you. Not may parents are willing to let their own child develop their OWN opinion. So here is my advice:

Consider taking your child to a non-denominational church. There are MANY of them out there, and they don't preach Catholic, Baptist, or any other specific religion. They tend to teach more specifics on the Bible itself. Granted the Bible IS more specificly Christian, but your statement of taking her to Bible School leads me to believe that you are interested in her learning SOMETHING of it. YOU are of course old enough to disagree or agree with what is being said, and since YOU take her there, YOU can also talk to her about it later, and answer questions she might have. THAT way, she is learning information from the person she is going to have the most faith in...YOU and your wife.
Face it, the public school systems are still predominantly Christian-based in their moral standings, and it would be better for her to learn about things from you and your wife, than by the dozens of opinions she might hear from in school! There is nothing wrong with teaching her you OR your wife's opinions on religion. That is what you are there for, to help her learn different things, and develop her OWN opinion. It is an ongoing battle to stay on the fence-post as you appear to be doing, and trying to not FORCE her into believing in only your opinion...Again I applaud you!!!!

__________________
"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison