Manorfire

Is modern education more about 'indoctrination' for the purposes of maintaining the current economic climate, rather than about engendering 'enlightenment' according to the pace and desire of the natural curiosities of the student?

If you foster the correct environment in which children can pursue their own interests, without hierarchal, coercive and arbitrary institutions, is it not to wider society's advantage?

Has education become just the means of regulating the competition in the job market, with the certificate of intellect serving solely as a tool for marketability? But, when this obligatory route ceases, and the formal stage is complete, has this business-led system truly instilled the desire for life-long learning?

Has anyone read the views of John Dewey or Bertrand Russell in relation to education? These people base their ideas on certain assumptions they've made about human nature:

Humans have a natural urge for freedom.
Humans have natural creativity.
Humans have inherently social urges.
Humans have moral urges.
Humans have self-perfecting urges.
Humans have competitive urges.

Does your current State educational system use any of these supposed 'natural inclinations' as their foundation approach to education? If these assumptions were valid, would your country benefit more from such an education system?

For me, the current purpose of state education here in Britain, is to create an illusion of equal opportunity, while ignoring freedom of opportunity. It's not meant for the individual - the empty vessel - but to give mass immunity against flagrant ignorance. This 'conformity training' means you've no 'excuse' for pissing on the pavement or a career in Burger King...you were given the chance to learn.

("I never let my schooling get in the way of my education." - Mark Twain)

Ourcrazymodern?

I'm pretty sure it's indoctrination; witness that the common knowledge these days says that you have to get some knowledges to make some money. If we were trying to allow enlightenment, we'd focus less on the monetary basis, or so I believe. Maybe the powers that be all got their enlightenment in grade school, or junior high, or not at all. e.g. what is UP with W?

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Etarip

First of all there is already a movement along the lines you're thinking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unschooling

Beyond that I cannot say much on the state of the the public education system, as I did not precipitate in it until college.

Ourcrazymodern?

Precipitating must've been quite an experience! What did it FEEL LIKE?

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josie

I think public education has had to reinvent itself in order to meet the most basic needs of the largest number of students- unfortunately this has translated into a rigidly adhered to and watered down (in terms of both breadth and depth) subject matter. (I'm speaking primarily of education in the US - I live in the UK- but am American and did most of my teaching in the US).
Because public education has been given the almost impossible task of educating every student who enters the door of the school to the same standard (although they all come with different interests, skills, and abilities), it has come to resemble a factory environment in which kids are placed on an assembly line and rolled through.
There's very little time or space to accomodate the learning pace and desires or natural curiousity of each individual student.

I think ideally, yes. I don't know about anyone else, but I feel more and more the reality of the situation is that conformity to the status quo is often rewarded moreso than individualism. It seems that individualism makes people uncomfortable, while conformity it something they can understand.

I do agree that that education has become primarily a means of regulating the competition in the job market, with the certificate serving as a tool for marketability. But a lot of that is because that is what society values. Society doesn't seem to place great value on learning for the joy of learning. It's all supposed to lead to something- a job- a standard of living.

In terms of humans having a natural urge for freedom, this may have been true when Dewey and even Russel were writing. But I think freedom at this point, at least in developed western societies such as the US and UK, is taken for granted. I think the concept of "belonging" is more valued than that of "freedom".

And while I think humans have a natural urge for creativity, some moreso than others, it seems to me that creativity is becoming both less apparent and less valued. Kids today are indoctrinated to be passive observers in so many of their activities that a lot of their active creativity is never developed and eventually just dies.

I think humans are still a social animal and value their ability to function and "fit" within a group. Maybe this is another reason why creativity and individualism is less apparant.
I think that human are still self-perfecting, maybe even moreso than they've been in the past, but not in terms of intellect or creativity as much as outward appearance.
The US educational system definitely focuses on and hones the competitive urges of students.

I don't think the kids would know how to handle an educational system that emphasized individual achievement based on curiousity and desire to learn and the ability to function creatively and independently. They'd have to be debriefed and reindoctrinated.
Same in the US.

I'm teaching adults (for the first time) here in the UK. I have to say I love it. These are people who did not succeed in school in their youth, but have come back to it - and are thirsty to learn. I think they will become life-long learners. This is encouraging to me.

Ourcrazymodern?

Individual packaging is all we have.
Education is supposed to be what we do to pass the knowledge along?
Let us self-perfect us all.

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Etarip

As I said I did not precipitate, neither did I participate.

(curse the automatic spell checker!)

Ourcrazymodern?

Probably the dumbing down of America is working.
I'm guessing it's not going to work out very well.

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Manorfire

Etarip: Thank you for the link. "Unschooling" certainly seems to fit with what I am describing. It's not something I'm familiar with, so I shall follow my inherent curiosity and research the topic you facilitated me with. Your participation in this thread has precipitated my interest! Were you home schooled, if you don't mind me asking?

I attended what was termed as a special school. They call them extra needs schools these days, or they fit the 'special' children into 'mainstream' schools. The education plan I received was much more individual to me and I was consulted about what I wanted to learn. They set me my own targets, which were obtainable in small steps, and encouraged me in a very personal way. They overlooked that the disability was never in my brain, but I feel I benefited from being schooled in this 'special' way. Whoever deemed I wasn't capable of receiving the regular conformity training actually did me a favour.

Josie: Great post, you clearly share my interest in the topic. For me, you made some good points, most especially:

I very much agree with you here. Is this evidence in itself of mass indoctrination? They say you reap what you sow. Society often seems to have a narrow, closed off mind, with many 'stranded' individuals eschewing its supposed universal opinion.

Passive observing, in many activities that could participatory, is such a waste of potential achievement. It offers so many limitations, it is hardly an accurate method of learning anything, nevermind encouraging interest. Of course, creativity alone will not pay the rent, unless society decides you're sufficiently talented or you generate enough infamy. So, creativity, along with other areas of individualism, takes a back seat, as it's not what the business needs. Forget the rewards and inspiration in life that creativity (in its many forms) would personally bring people.

Ourcrazymodern?:Perhaps we need to indoctrine our children to see acquiring money as less of a life goal. Though, I guess humanity couldn't handle the widespread ramifications if we did that. People would be more inclined to chose their occupations based on their heart and their natural abilities. Enlightenment, and maybe a different definition of 'happy' would ensue, but at the cost of common (relative) knowledge and our current economic ideals. Problem is, what society wants out of life is so damn expensive.

Anyway, this is a philosophical area that I love to think about, even if my thoughts are a little idealistic. Circumstances mean that my children go to the local state school, but I try to offer a balance of approaches at home. I must say I feel it's the system that dictates the outcomes rather than the majority of teachers and support staff. When I've discussed that topic with them, they've often appeared frustrated by the limitations they face.

pai mei

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ucation+system
Here is a video about the education system in the US.

josie

Manorfire-I'd be interested in hearing more about your experience at your particular school and how you think it compares (if you have knowledge of) the experience of kids who are dealing with a disability of some sort who are mainstreamed- if you're not adverse to talking about it.

I'm a special needs teacher and I know what I think, but it'd be really helpful to hear from an adult who actually experienced it as a student.

Ourcrazymodern?

Manorfire, I've always told the offspring that we make our own paths through this life. I'm still wondering what the alternative to capitalism might be, though, given the world's hungry embrace of it?
As the world has become more technological it seems to have become more splintered and more integrated at the same time. I see the younger people struggling to make sense of it all, and the older ones even more so!
...I sometimes feel like I need a special needs teacher, josie.
Part of education has always been to socialize(indoctrinate)the young, right?
Enlightenment might be a personal responsibility.

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josie

Yeah, me too. It'd be nice to feel your needs (whatever they are) specially addressed by someone who cares and is familiar with your specific issues, wouldn't it?

I hadn't thought about it like that - but you're right-that's true. Maybe that's why the education bit has gotten so strained and rote-because schools have definitely had to add other "responsibilities" to their daily agendas that used to be the province of the family or the individual.

I remember it was the exception and not the rule that anyone was supposed to receive personal enlightenment from a teacher. Teachers were just supposed to tell me what they knew about chemistry or algebra, first and foremose- and if they did this, they were considered to have done their job. I was supposed to get my other needs met other places. The whole concept of what a school is supposed to do has changed.

Manorfire

Josie: I'd be interested in hearing your perspective also. I'll make a thread about the mainstreaming debate in Tilted Living. I might start a journal for a more indepth account of things - I haven't decided yet!

I agree with your whole post, but this is where I think it gets complex. IMO the onus to enlighten children is on the parents, and to some degree, on the child (once the child becomes an adult, it is almost entirely on the child).

However, this is an idealism - if only every parent/carer had the skills and fortitued to take on the responsibility. As many don't even get involved in the basics - such as reading with their children - I doubt they will foster the required culture of learning at home. Some children are disadvantaged enough by the kind of parenting they receive, that they desperately need schools to teach them more than academia. These children have to get the right messages from somewhere or they will never desire to reach their full potential. Then, when they have their own children...

Schools have a huge challenge and so many roles to take on. They have to deal with intense pressure, while often being inadequately supported by many areas in society. They are quickly blamed for many social problems, while not readily praised for the great work they have done. Perhaps schools are restrained by the need to indoctrine now, and enlightenment is another unworkable ideal I'd like to see applied.

pai mei: I haven't watched the video yet (very slow connection and tempermental computer) Will try again later as I am interested to learn!

Ourcrazymodern?

Schools have a huge challenge and so many more things to teach. I wonder if all education might not eventually come through the internet? It seems like it could, except for the social parent part, & modern children seem a great deal more adept in their thinking; maybe given computers?
I don't blame the schools at all, except inasmuch as the children changed faster than they did. & than the parents did!

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Easytiger

Speaking as a teacher with experience in government and private schools in several countries, I'd say education is a more or less equal mix of indoctrination and the provision of basic skills- and unless you're lucky and have a really good teacher, enlightenment doesn't come into it.

The thing is that the indoctrination isn't exactly a conscious decision. The government educational charter in my state in Australia required that as a first priority, students should become economically viable and productive people. Of course, that's got nothing to do with being enlightened or even decent; they just need to be able to make money.
A different kind of unconscious indoctrination applies where I am now. The students all come from insanely wealthy families and their main educational thrust (unspoken, of course) is to be able to maintain the wealth they will inherit.

Nobody sat down to write these doctrines; they just kind of happened. It's very odd to realize how often that people operate based on things that remain unsaid.

Ourcrazymodern?

Easytiger, you hit it right in the brainpan: Conscious decisions are things that most people don't make. So... OK, might we not teach the children more about how to think than about what to think?

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Easytiger

Teaching my students to think clearly has always been my goal, no matter what subject I have them for. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, and it's so much easier to just hammer in a few select factoids and let the kids vomit them back at me. Generally, though, it feels good just to have made the attempt.
What kills me is when my students have no interest in becoming enlightened (I like to think that I can help in this process, but for all I know I'm leading them in the wrong direction, blinded as I am by my own unconscious indoctrination).

Long before I became a teacher, I came to the conclusion that there is no greater ill than being willfully ignorant. I believe that far too many people choose to act as though they don't know better, and that's the biggest problem we face as a species.

The real kicker is that being acting like you don't know better is so much fun, which hits home with me every time I get blind drunk. I know the hangover's coming. I know I shouldn't have that cigarette with my beer. And yet...

roachboy

no time at the moment--but this is an interesting topic.
education is both. fundamentally both.
education is a central element of the system of social reproduction, so its social role is to reproduce the labor pool.
but it is also a space within which reflexive thinking is possible, so the social reproduction functions *should* be part of conversations that make up one's education. this reflexive work seems to me to be of fundamental importance: without it, the complex of functions served by education happen as if they were elements of a natural formation. what education does is not that: it is a political matter, involving political choices and political consequences. it should be treated as such.
as for the question of what political roles might be served by, say, a montessori approach or other such, i'd say they are variable. as an element within the present order, they function as nicer versions of the same.

on the other hand, i actually believe in the radical potentials of education that does not simply duplicate the existing rationality, so have an idea that something on the order of a new bauhaus or new black mountain school could have a considerable impact, were one to get started. we'll see over time how that works out.

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it make you sick.

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Dip

It is very much the same in Australia as Britain, as alot of governing decisions seem to be.

Indeed it is, in so many ways. And the effects on the entire globe are getting quite apparent. If we continue under this paradigm we could quite easily destroy ourselves and even the entire planet.

Enlightenment wouldnt be enlightenment without you personally striving for it i suppose? which possibly adds to the suggestion that it is our responsibility, it certainly seems to be in current society. However the indoctrination aswell as bombardment of the senses that occurs from a young age is a substantial obstacle that has been set in place and refined for many years if not decades (if not life times?) and severely hampers the chances of the individual. They are constantly focused on the outside and a standard of conformity that they mustn't step outside of for fear of ridicule or discomfort, having little to no time to look inward bar examining whether they satisfactorily meet the shallow standard. The discovery of self is ground to as much of a halt as possible except for the development of emotions that will further implicate them within the control of the system, such as greed (leading to debt and being at the mercy of the system or leading to purely material pursuit.)

Ive just finished my 13 years of endoctrination and am looking at university, Im not sure why im subjecting myself to more of the endoctrination, but im trying to follow interests within it, and i suppose of course i'm also looking to try "set myself up to live reasonably easily" So i can continue to pursue my life at my own pace. However it does appear there is substantial benefit in being introduced to the idea of indoctrination at some point during your schooling so that if you havent already awoke to the feeling you may atleast think about it for a moment and review it against your experience (unless you are beyond the point of doing something like that i suppose).

I think im begining to lose track of my thoughts and begining to move across the line into rambling, so i will stop now and attempt to collect my thoughts and contemplate further.

Anyway, till next time.

-Dip.

P.s Im glad i found this forum, it is quite thought provoking and interesting. Hopefully things i come to say may be of some intellectual benefit (although that may not occur )