Meditrina

I am not sure if this belongs here, or in the philosophy forum. So I will just ask my question, and if it needs to be moved, please do so.

Not all of you know, but I converted from a non-practicing Jew to a Catholic. At first I thought I knew what I was doing. Now I am not too sure. I am not religious any more than I was before I converted and I am not sure what I believe. My daughter, age 9, is in religion classes after school. She received Holy Communion last year, while I thought I was following the right path. Yesterday she tells me that she does not like her religion class, mostly because of her teacher. I discussed this with my husband, a non-religious brought-up Catholic. We agreed that she should finish out the year and then decide what to do. I told my daughter this and said if she feels in her heart that she wants to continue through until Confirmation, that she should try the class for one more year after this (chances are she would have a different teacher next year). Who am I to push something on her that I am not even sure I believe in myself? I tried to leave it up to her, without telling her that I don't think I believe.

Is she old enough to make up her mind about this? Did I say the right thing?

__________________
"Toughness is in the soul and spirit, not in muscles." ~Alex Karras

Toaster126

Sounds like your asking her what her thoughts are and then following them. For a lot of things, that's not what a parent should be doing.

Religion, however, I think is one where that is the correct action. You can't force someone to believe or not believe. You can only guide them to explore things for themselves.

I would ask her if it's the entire class bothering her or if it really is just the teacher. If it is just the teacher, I'm confident she could go somewhere else for religious studies. It sounds like you have decided there are two options - stay in that class and hope for a different teacher, or stop going. There are lots more.

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

SecretMethod70

There are a lot of things to consider here. First, even within the same religion, two different people can teach two VEEEERY different things. I think it's important to do homework on what your daughter is being taught andsee if that's something you think is beneficial. I've known Catholics in teaching positions on two completely and utterly opposite ends of the spectrum. Second, does your daughter have the maturity to really be making a decision about what she believes about the purpose of existence? Honestly, I don't think even most 20 year olds have that maturity. Third, if you want to give your daughter the tools to eventually choose for herself what she believes, that means giving her the tools. Talk to her about other belief systems too and how they are different and similar to the one she is learning. Allowing your kid to say "religion class isn't fun" or "I don't like the teacher" or whatever and, therefore, not learn about any spirituality is not giving the tools for her to eventually make her own decision, it is depriving her of the tools to make any decision other than atheism or agnosticism until much later in her life. And, hey, maybe that's what you think is actually the best thing to do, but if your goal is actually to provide her with the tools necessary to make her own decision regarding spirituality, that requires a lot more than sending her to classes on the religion that you happen to have the most recent history with.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

onodrim

I agree with a lot of what Secret said. It's good that you're engaging in discussion with her, that is by far a better option than just forcing her to stay in class because you say so and it's what she should do. Then she'll just resent it, learn nothing, and negatively impact her future spiritual growth. The most important thing whether she stays in this particular class or not is that you continue to talk about it in some form. If you just let it go, chances are she will just never really return to a mindset where religion/spirituality is important in her life. At the age she's at now she can't make any solid decisions about what she believes or why, but it *is* a great age to cultivate a spiritual awareness. Allow her to learn about different ways of thinking without forcing just one. Not only will she be better equiped to make an informed decision late in life about how she feels about religion/spirituality, but she will learn to develop critical thinking skills as well. Encourage her to find the positive things she can in this current class and let her know that if she still feels unhappy with it after giving it some time that she doesn't have too feel stuck and then give up religion altogether, but let her see what else is out there.

__________________
"The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides"
-Carl Sagan

mandy

so, you are not sure what you believe in? and your daughter doesnt like her catechism classes because of the teacher? is that the correct way to put it?because i dont wana get my facts wrong.

but if that is why and she's been going to these catechism classes for the past couple of years im guessing because she's already made her first holy communion then i suggest you let her continue with it.

you did the right thing by talking to her and telling her what her options are but a nine year old child is(in my opinion) too young to be making decisions like that.and, her decision will be conflicted with what her parents want instead of what she wants or needs.

she has the chance to believe in something and not be as confused as you are now.

my suggestion to you is that you keep her in these catechism classes until such a time she is old enough to make her own decisions.

if she decides later in life that she does not want to be catholic then so be it.the onus is on you as her mother to give her the chance to believe not because she thinks mommy and daddy does but because "i believe"

and i have a question for you sportswidow. you said your husband is catholic and was brought up that way and you, before you got married, followed the jewish religion?and then you converted when you got married?

do you think that maybe you were influenced into turning catholic, because that could be what's causing your confusion?my advice to you is, no one can tell you what to believe, thats all up to you .

i am a catholic and brought up that way and so is the rest of my family but, my boyfriend is mauravian...my point is that i dont expect him to convert just because im catholic and i would think that he would want the same from me.

my dad was union congregational and he is only now converting after 23 years of marriage, not because of my mother but because he feels its the right thing to do for him.

Toaster126

I'm pretty confident I would never have become religous if I had been forced to go to church or classes at 9. I would have been another casuality of Christianity. So I guess I strongly disagree that she isn't old enough to decide what she wants to do.

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

jwoody

My cousin and I were seven years old when we managed to deeply upset our (practising christian) baby-sitter with our pictures of jesus which she asked us to draw.

*jwoody has a happy memory flashback moment*

We'd both made up our own minds on the subject, despite morning prayers at school, occasional Sunday school classes, family weddings, christenings etc...


At least you're having a discussion about it. Many kids are forced into following their parent's religion regardless of their personal beliefs.

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Meditrina

Mandy - I cannot say that growing up I followed the Jewish religion. We were a non-practicing family. I never had any formal religion education. My husband did not influence me to convert either. Actually, I think it was my own sister who had convinced me that certain beliefs that I do have was actually a belief in God. My husband and I had agreed to teaching our children both of our relgions, however I cannot teach them something I know nothing about. I went to classes and converted to Catholicism.

I have talked further with my daughter. It seems that it is only the teacher she has issues with. The girl is only 16, cannot control the class and when she is not there her mother teaches. My daughter said she cannot understand the mother's accent. The school is on vacation now, so when they return, I am going to go speak with the ladies in the office and see if anything can be done for this year. My purpose of sending her to these classes is so that when she is older she has a basis to make a decision on. I have never once mentioned to her that I am not sure what I believe. I also do not want her growing up not knowing, like me, and be confused at age 36.

I really appreciate all of your honest responses. This is something I do not have much experience in, since my parents never taught me religion of any kind. I knew it was a good decision to post my question here.

__________________
"Toughness is in the soul and spirit, not in muscles." ~Alex Karras

Bill O'Rights

Having the right, or the wrong, teacher means everything. And that's not just in relious matter, either. Religion, it seems to me, to be too impotant of a subject to left to the devices of a 16 year old teacher...but what do I know?
My wife is a semi-practicing Catholic. Me? I'm agnostic, bordering on the atheist. Mrs. O'Rights wants our 3 year old son brought up in the Catholic church. Which, for me, is really no big deal, as I will also teach him to think for himself, and not to take everything at face value. Some in the O'Rights clan, however, take a different view. I have been reminded of the "O'Rights" family persecution, at the hands of the Papists, in 15/16 century Switzerland. Beheadings, prison starvation, lands seized...that kind of thing. I'm asked how I could consent to an "O'Rights" being raised in the Catholic Church. Geez. Bitter much? It was only 500 years ago.
The point is...hell, I forgot my point.
Oh, yeah. The point is my son will be raised with a religious background, while being taught, at the same time, to think for himself, and to question. It's the best that I can do for him.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

snowy

That's how I was raised. My dad's an atheist, and my mom is a Lutheran. Of course, the "think for yourself" thing was equally promoted by the pastor of the church I attended as a youngin'. Like some have said here--the teacher makes all the difference, and my pastor, by encouraging us to be scholastic about our faith, ensured that I will always be a Lutheran (though I now attend an Episcopalian church).

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

astrahl

My concern with teaching and bringing up kids with any one religion is that you have to be sure that your religion represents who you are. Catholism, for example, the religion I was raised with, has VERY strict interpretations of things like birth control, a woman's place, the scriptures, evolution, science/research, sexuality, marriage, etc. If those Catholic ideals do not fit who you are or how you want your child to be, become a basic Christian or basic Jew or basic Buddhist.

Teaching and associating yourself with a religion that does not represent you clouds you self-image and how other people judge you.

Like I said, I was raised Catholic. My mom is Catholic, my father agnostic. I've turned out to fall closer to agnostic. The Catholic church and its ideals did not represent me or the person I wanted to be. No religion really hits the nail on the head, but Catholics, in particular, violate my feminist, independent spirit. While I can appreciate other people's choices in religion and spirituality, I am very serious about being sure that your chosen religion truly represents you.

Besides, I think kids figure that stuff out more in high school and college when the new environments start to challenge the belief systems they've been brought up under.

__________________
Maybe it was over when she chucked me out the Rover at full speed.
Maybe Maybe...
~a-Ha

sexymama

I think that what is most important is your modeling. The classes may be helpful or harmful -- it is difficult to tell. But the most influence you will have on her is through your own actions. If you want your daughter to grow up in the Catholic faith/tradition -- then you must practice it yourself.

As for our household, our children are required to go to church with us every Sunday. We encourage further participation; but it becomes their choice and other activities sometimes preclude church during the week. However, we pray together before every meal.

__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

analog

I taught 2nd grade Catholic religious education for 3 years, and I assisted them same for many years before that.

Like regualr school, only more so, kids don't generally like going to "church class"- unless the teacher engages them. My kids always loved me, because I looked at them from a position of opportunity, not authority. I saw the chance to educate young minds, not shove my dogma down their throats because I had the power to do so.

Unfortunately, I seemed to be in a minority in those beliefs. Many other teachers were hated or just disliked, because they simply didn't seem to care beyind trying to shove the material at their students.

My students were happy to be there, happy to learn, because they wanted to learn. I made an atmosphere of "i don't want to be here" into an important part of their maturation both in the church and in their personal lives. My kids always knew all their stuff, and were proud to be able to recite their prayers, or tell you about what they'd learned. I was very sad when I had to step down.

The question I'm always asked (after "if you hate kids do much, why did you teach sunday school to second-graders?") is why I stopped. The answer is, unfortuntely, the politics. They were happy with my results, and wanted me to do older groups. I did not want to do older kids, I wanted to keep my (very important) grade 2. I was great at that grade. I could teach the whole book from memory. I had activities, thoughtful asides to explain certain hard-for-an-8-year-old-to-grip ideas, and they gave me shit for the entire year, my third year, about taking another grade the next year. They finally said that if i stayed on, i would not get 2nd grade again, because they wanted me to help "straighten out" the older kids. Going "where you're needed" is one thing, but the best way to fight it isn't by attacking the eighth-graders into submission, it's by properly educating the 2nd-graders to begin with, so they grow properly from the start.

erics

i don't think you can steer a child wrong giving them choice in a situation like this. I think most importantly the child needs to know that they can talk to the parent, with parents giving them honest answers.

of course I have no children yet (although someday I'd like too), and I'm basing most of my opinion on how I was raised, the flaws I saw and what I think might be best way to improve upon them......

__________________
"What's the benefit of laughing
When you only have to cry?
Why take the big adventure
When you're only left to die???
"

spindles

I agree with Bill O'rights. Regardless of whether they continue in formal education, I think it is best if you raise your children to question things. I am in a situation where my wife is religious and I am not. I am still happy for her to take our son to church with her (he is only 18 months old) and I can see this will most likely lead to sunday school when he is older.

I plan to make no secret of where my thoughts lie and that his mother and I disagree - I'm hoping this will help him to question what he is told and not necessarily take everything told by an older person as "truth". We have chosen at this stage to not get him christened, as I would feel hypocritical doing it. There are a few people at the local church that know how I'm thinking and (so far) it hasn't really affected my relationship with those people.

I guess the other point is that seeing that people have different views may also teach him to be tolerant of views that differ from his.

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who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

little_tippler

I went to a catholic school from age 4 till I was 18 and have always been an atheist, or perhaps an agnostic. Still undecided. Right now tending towards atheism more.

At home my parents never talked about religion to me, and even having gone to a catholic school, where from the ages of 4-10 I had daily prayers (morning, lunch and afternoon) and also religion class, where basically I learned about the Bible, I never felt religion was for me. Ironically, I was one of the best students in religion class. I had some fairly devout friends who I had conversations about religion with at age 10 and I never changed my mind anyway.

For me, I would never put my child in a religious class of any kind before she was of an age where I think she would be capable of fully understanding what is being taught and is able to apply some critical judgement to what is being said instead of just being indoctrinated so to speak.

That being said, my mom put me in this catholic school because the teaching there in general was of a very high standard, and wasn't at all worried about the religious aspect of it. I guess it wasn't an issue. I could be who I wanted to. Also, at home if I had any questions or issues, I knew I could always find a frank reply in her.

If you're confused about your own beliefs, I think you may end up confusing your daughter, especially as she is at an important formative age where she will be questioning things. Maybe you should sit her down and ask her what she really thinks of religion and God. Perhaps she does "feel" catholic, and just doesn't like her teacher. Give her a chance to tell you. I know at age 9 I was a lot more mature than people gave me credit for. If she still says she wants to quit that class, let her. Is it that important to you? Let her be who she has to be.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

Meditrina

just a little update: I spoke with my daughter about the possibility of trying a different church next school year. I wanted to see if that church fit my beliefs any differently. They don't. Plus, my daughter now says she likes the class she is in. The teacher must have been spoken to, she seems to have more control over the class now, and can discipline when the kids are misbehaving. That was very important to my daughter, who just wants to learn. I will revisit this topic with her when we have to sign up for the next year.

__________________
"Toughness is in the soul and spirit, not in muscles." ~Alex Karras

PastorTim

I personally think a bit of Biblical wisdom is helpful in raising children: "train up a child in they way they should go." The implication is that we will teach them what we believe is the right way. Teach, not leave them to form their own opinions.

I'm sure not everyone will agree. But in many areas you already do this. Do you allow the child to make up their mind what medicines to play with and try out that you have in the medicine cabinet? Would you let your child follow through with the decision that playing in the middle of a busy road sounds like a great way to get a cheap thrill? We can imagine a variety or situations and decisions where we would be negligent as parents if we didn't properly train the child.

So, too, I think with values and opinions. And some times it's valuable simply watching what the child has already "caught" simply from being in our presence. Some time too revealing: we may not like the influence we're having on them! Or we might see an opinion come out of them which we suspect came from watching us, and then we have to re-evaluate our self [ie: wow, that was a pretty nasty thing to say, but now that I think of it, I must be the source... Do I really think and believe THAT?]

I hope you understand my meaning.

So I would encourage you to train up the child as you think is right. I think for most people a mature ability to think, process, meditate, reason and opine takes many, many years [many more than 9, surely].

But that in part is why parents are there.

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And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ~ Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour

tecoyah

Well stated PastorTim, I might also add that explaining multiple religions, and allowing children to experience the sameness inherent in them all, helps the child understand that tolerance is tantamount in this pursuit. There is a fine line between Teaching, and Preaching...and every parent must decide which side of the line they wish to be on, realizing there really is no "Wrong" religion to show your children, just the one more right for you.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

ngdawg

Addendum.....Until they have the maturity and knowledge to choose what is right for them.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

maximusveritas

Another addendum would be to explain to them that it's ok to have no religion, if that's what they choose.

Meditrina

I have been reading all of your responses, and I truly appreciate all of them. I don't want my daughter growing up not knowing about religion as I did. She has been learning about the differences in some of them. My parents are Jewish and some of her friends are different Christian religions. She went to VBS at a different church this past summer. And her best friend is, well, I am not sure what she is. She never actually said what religion she is, and I never really asked. She is a nature loving, good soul. My daughter has learned alot about nature from her mother. I want my children to have enough knowledge to make their own choice, in due time. I just don't have the knowledge to teach them myself.

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"Toughness is in the soul and spirit, not in muscles." ~Alex Karras

PastorTim

You are very kind tecoyah.

I would say that I do believe there are times when it is right, proper, good and even necessary to preach as well as teach. And perhaps I don't exactly agree that there is no "wrong" religion.

Of course, I don't have much use for religion. I find a relationship with God is much more efficacious.

But I suspect you would not be surprised by those, either.

__________________
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ~ Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour

ClostGoth

My husband and I are both firm believers in less "main-stream" religions, therefore put a lot of thought into what we would do when it came time to have children. We were both raised strict Southern Baptist with at least one atheist influence. We searched and finally found a church where our children can get a well-rounded idea of what all different religions are like. The church's doctrine includes respecting the inherent value of our fellow human beings and their right to believe as they will... We belong to the 1st Unitarian Universalist and are very happy with the experience. I was surprised at how often my boys will come to me with questions about what _I_ believe, comparing it to what they've learned in Sunday School that week, and (I hope) forming a basis from which they can draw their own conclusions eventually...

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Poppinjay

If a child of mine comes home with a brochure on becoming a thetan, it's off to the de-programmers with him!

My advice, Sports Widow, would be to schedule some daily time to think about, and research what YOU believe. Give yourself the opportunity to understand what you want out of a faith enough to explain it to your daughter.

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet