Leto

exchange "terrorist" for "Communist" and you have deja-vu of McCarthyism. Upto this point in history, everybody looked back on the McCarthy era with a knowing smirk, and thought that they were so easily mislead back then. That it could never happen again.

Well, people have short memories, and are doomed to repeat that little bit of history.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
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http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

pan6467

Why do you think Anne Coulter and Limbaugh and O'Reilly keep saying "McCarthy wasn't that bad, that he was just misunderstood and the liberal media has made more of it than there truly was"?

I don't think it's short memories, I think that the powers that be saw how easily led the Baby Boomers were, how follow the leader and manipulated they were and played it against us.

And the Reagan years proved that people cared more about the money and toys then they did with where the country was headed politically and where our rights were concerned. They learned if you have people in debt and fearful of losing their jobs they are more apt to be quiet and not raise a fuss, for fear of losing everything.

So now when rights are taken away, or 9/11's happen, or we see massive scandals...... yeah there maybe some people who try to open eyes but noone truly stands up because I believe we are scared not only of what we may lose financially and such, but we are scared to see the truth and what really is going on. How bad off we truly are, how indebted we truly are and what the politicians and greedy fucks have truly sold and given away to line their own pockets.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

biznatch

If he were responsible for bringing truth to everyone, I would gain so much respect for him. Because right now, well...

Ustwo

And this group or person was worried about the left wing wackjob Mayor of San Fransico for some reason and was willing to expose their/his/its plan to save him.



So just what sort of conspiracy is this? Is there a rational reason to risk it to save some very minor political figure?

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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samcol

Notice how no real prominent or very public officials or businessmen died in the 9/11 attacks? The only one I can think of is a fairly high level government employees wife, but I can't think of her name at the moment. It's very possible that this is a coincidence, except for this article. This is the kind of tidbits of weird shit that I constantly see when reading articles:

Silverstein, the shady leaseholder who purchashed the massive insurance policy of the WTC complex months before the attacks and who was filmed giving the famous "pull it" comment, was supposed to be eating breakfast in the twin towers that day but lucky for him he had a doctors appointment instead. This article is about rebuildling the WTC and this bizarre bit of information is just kind of thrown in there. Isn't it kinda of weird that he missed breakfast that day? Oh and there just happened to be drills on 9/11 depicting the exact same event, and Norad just happened to stand down that day, and and first steel buildings to fall from fire happened that day too.

It's not my job or the job of the citizens to take all these pieces of the puzzle and fit them together. We don't have the abilility or the access to the resources neccessary to do so. It's only our job to look at the puzzle and say it's not fitting together correctly and we collectively (new independent commission) need to figure out why. Again, it doesn't really matter why the mayor was called at this point (that's the job of a real commission), all the matters is we expose the fact that he was notified of an event that was taking place in New York and ask why this information was ignored by the 9/11 commission.

We need to expose that a conspiracy likely happend on 9/11 and on the investigation, and call for an new independent investigation, not compound the problem by arguing about who did it and why.

Mojo_PeiPei

Weird that Zachirias Moussaoui testified today as being intended to hijack a 5th plane for 9/11, and that he only maintained his innocence so far as to allow the attacks to procede.

But he must be a government stooge.

Oh yeah Osama Bin Laden isn't real as it was actually the moussad zionists that flew the planes into the buildings.

__________________
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ubertuber

Samcol, I believe you're thinking of Barbara Olson, the wife of then-Solicitor General Ted Olson. Incidentally, Olson also represented Bush in Bush v. Gore 2000, thus getting the President into office. Sort of a raw deal that his wife died on his 61st birthday.

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Willravel

These are incridibly brilliant, researched, and supported claims Mojo. This is the best post I've ever seen.

What would your response be to the fact that at least 7 of the 9/11
hijackers are still alive? It looks a lot like the official report on 9/11 is the nutty conspiracy theory.

Mojo_PeiPei

If seven of the are alive then they never were aboard the hijacked planes. There would obviously be some break down with the names and intelligence.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

arnie

Im sorry but all the conspiracy theories in the world aren't going to bring back those that meet i'll fate on that day...Hopefully we can learn something from it,to honor those that went before us. And lets face it we still haven't learnt the truth from the Kennedy assasination,and probably never will. But what we did learn is that the government are a bunch of lieing mother fuckers that cannot be trusted..

Willravel

If intel as simple as the names and number of hijackers is wrong, then why blindly trust the rest of the information? Is there any harm in asking questions?

I know that solving the puzzle isn't going to bring anyone back, but it sure will give a lot of people closure if we can bring whoever is responsible for 9/11 to justice. Letting them go free leaves them the opportunity to do it again.

RussiaLv

Ok, let's say that there was a 9/11 conspiracy. Personally, I believe that there was government involvement to some extent...But, what purpose did it serve? Where does all of this lead to?

Were the lives of 3,000 Americans the price to invade Afghanistan and Iraq? For an oil pipeline and a country rich with it?

ASU2003

This might be way off, but the economy is doing ok now, thanks in part to the government spending in the defense sector. If the attack never happened and the military never got an increased budget, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have my job.

Imagine that right after the tech bubble burst, you had the defense industry dry up because there was no real threat. There is no real need to have all of these bases, soldiers, and new equipment, if there is no one to fight. The housing industry would have never taken off, and the auto industry would be doing worse than it is now.

Willravel

Well I try to take this in steps.

Step 1) Ask questions about the occourances on 9/11. Why did the building fall? Why did the news say that? How could that hole be so small? etc.

Step 2) Try to answer the questions. It could have been thermite charges. They could be covering or just as in the dark as the rest of us. The hole could have been caused by a UMV.

Step 3) Big picture. Why did they do that?

I'm still in the middle of step 3, so I can't answer the question completly. I *think* it could be that the military industrial complex needs to be fed, and the president, vice president, and many high ranking members of the government have taken actions to line their pockets. While it's possible that they are simply ignorant to all the various questions about 9/11, I doubt that not of the improtant people in the government could have asked one question. The 9/11 Commission was a joke. The FEMA and NIST reports on 9/11 are jokes.

I can't answer your question with any level of certianty, but I can tell you that you should ecide whether the smaller questions have answers first. If you don't believe the small stuff, then what reason do you have to believe the big stuff?

ASU2003

I'm not as concerned about the hole being that small. I've seen the test video of the F-4 flying into the concrete slab. The plane doesn't do very well. I would think that there would be jet fuel fire marks in the shape of the wings, where the fuel would have impacted the building. And, I want to find a pilot who could hit a 5 or 6 story building at full speed, the first time flying that size of an aircraft. And where are the eye-witnesses? There should be tons of them. Or are there any unedited security camera tapes. Did the black box make it? How could they find a black box in mountainside plane crash, but not a building one?

I want it to of happened like they said it did, but I still have a lot of unanswered questions.

crossova

Yes indeed. The Bush administration needed a reason to go to war..."A New Pearl Harbor". Afghanistan was in control by the Taliban, which blocked America's access to the oil-rich area of the Caspian (spell check) Sea.

Also note - before the attack on Pearl Harbor, Hawaii a Gallop poll estimated that less than 20% of the American population wanted the USA to enter World War II. The day after the attack on Pearl Harbor over 1million men enlisted in the military. The defense sector is our biggest and most profitable industry, it controls everything from agriculture to communications to manufacturing, etc. All America needed was a reason to invade and they manufactured it. We then invaded Iraq on false information, which they had the puppet (aka. Colin Powell) say that there were WMDs in Iraq. We never found them. I heard on a DVD (reopen911.org) that Powell was in charge of covering up the Mai Lai massacre in Vietnam also...so he isn't any stranger to lying to the American public. Also in Desert Storm he said that over 2500 Iraqi tanks were on the border of Saudi Arabia poised to invade, but satellite photos showed there was not one tank on that border....why lie?

America bombards the country to a pulp and "frees" the citizens there and look at them now, total anarchy. Who knows when American soldiers will be leaving that area. Now w/ America threatening Iran and their pursuit of nuclear arms, the US armed forces may never come home.

fastom

[QUOTE=ASU2003]This might be way off, but the economy is doing ok now... QUOTE]

Don't give them any more ideas... kill 3000 people = creating 3000 new job openings.
It would appear they could get a giant defense budget increase and deflect attention from the already lost billions.

Afghanistan also means opium poppy... may be a connection there.

samcol

Universal's flight 93 message board has been infiltrated by the 9/11 skeptics.
http://www.universalpictures.com/forum/index.php

The number of people who are questioning 9/11 is exploding.

host

I prefaced what is contained as documentation of the holes in the flight 93 "heroes" propaganda, and the Moussouai prosecution, over at the politis forum, in the flight 93 poll thread:
<b>In depth, Flight 93 phone call descriptions in this Newsweek Report:</b>
<b>Through the saturation of our sensibilities from four years of government sponsored, fear filled propaganda, we've arrived at a point that our DOJ is powerful and arrogant enough to maintain that we, the people, can be prohibited from access to information that the DOJ prosecutors have made available to an accused criminal who they say is a member of Al Qaeda who conspired to attack us on 9/11!</b>

Seer666

Hum, so far this is the only link I've looked at in this thread. I'm not going jump in and say it is or isn't a cover up. I am just going to say that I think this piece of film as evidence of it being a cover up is total off base. They "what a real plane crash looks like" like show pretyt much the same thing on all the crashes. It hits, it sparks, it goes up in a fire ball. Now, there is one MASSIVE problem with trying to compair the 9/11 crash with the other. The other are hitting SOLID OBJECTS like the ground. The 9/11 hit a hollow stucture. Now, looking at the mass and speed of an airplane, yeah, it would make it all the way inside a building before the fuel sparked, and look, well, like the video of a plane disapearing into a building. I think this secion of vid is on the level.

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

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fastom

I don't think anybody doubts a plane hit either of the WTC towers. Any cover ups have to do with other things like the Pentagon, the PA crash, the WTC buildings collapsing, the still alive suicide pilots, phony phone calls, lack of Arabs aboard the planes, lethargic response to hijackings, sheisters in control, etc.

It's almost like a movie, a really stupid one where some dummy has their car throttle pedal stick down and drives half way across the country at 120mph before realizing the ignition switch has an off position.

highthief

Why do some Americans feel teh need to console themselves that they were somehow "duped" into going to war, as if the US is so superior to every other nation that ever went to war for money, politics or just being pig headed?

I think the true conspiracy is by the conspiracy theorists who feel the need to make excuses for how their countrymen were fooled into supporting an invasion that, in hindsight, many more people are now pretty uncomfortable with.

You got attacked. You got mad. Made a few jokes about Islam and the French. You invaded 2 countries, one justifiably, one not. Now you're stuck.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Seer666

Well in our defense, we've always mae jokes about the french.

__________________
Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

samcol

A new 9/11 movie, or at least new to me. I hope it hasn't been posted before.

http://www.911revisited.com/video.html

Sp0rAdiC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6Xoxaf1Al0

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but this is a video of Rumsfeld admitting to the plane over Pennsylvania being shot down. The people in the background look quite shocked.

Jack Ruby

More than we know. That much I'm sure of.

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You don't know what you don't know.

mr_alleycat

IMO what happened was a mix of gooberment involvement, PNAC, and OBL's base.

Why?

A pipeline in Afghanastan, oil fields in Iraq, and save the Petro-dollar.
At the same time line the pockets of the perps, through selling the military what they need to wage war, and security needs here.

In a word Greed.


BTW: It gave them the ability to surround Iran, the other country that is going to sell it's oil for Euros.

fastom

Couple more links to check out...
http://www.question911.com/
http://www.iamthewitness.com/index.html

samcol

This is a pretty neat video of Gypsy Taub confronting the 9/11 commissioners. How can these people live with themselves considering all the important information they ignored and/or covered up?

Confronting the 9/11 Comissioners

Radio interview with Gypsy Taub regarding the confrontations

Overlord1191

I'm about 1/3rd of my way digging into this thread... in case anyone hasn't seen this yet, I highly recommend it:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...q=loose+change

__________________
"Thanks to TV and for the convenience of TV, you can only be one of two kinds of human beings, either a liberal or a conservative."
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fastom

Gypsy Taub comes across as a nut. Makes credibility tough even though she may be sincere and right.

On the other hand this is more credible...
http://www.geocities.com/mknemesis/colonels.html

Right after the whole deal, when planes weren't allowed to fly, i talked to my neighbor, a retired pilot. He is into old cars and we talked that but then talk turned to planes and the whole 9-11 deal. He has flown more hours than almost any person alive, starting before WW2. In everything up to 747's. He still follows aviation keenly in his old age. He thought several things were fishy.

What happened to the anti terrorist flight control program that can land the plane if hijacked?

Making a sharp U turn while descending at high speed like what happened over DC, the heaviness of the controls would mean a very experienced pilot... or remote control.

An intruder in the cockpit can be disarmed in an instant with a quick prod of the joystick. He thought no pilot would give up a plane without trying something and was baffled that four were claimed to have been taken.

Willravel

Damn Overlord, that's the best video by far I've seen on the subject. Excellent find.

fastom

While checking out a link to some drama about a stolen cellphone i ran across a guys WTC pictures from his neighboring apartment.

http://www.evanwashere.com/pics/9-11/9-11/index.htm

Perhaps some new angle compared to what we have seen elsewhere. The start of the fall and picture just before it are quite interesting. Obviously the fire is much less severe in the first building to fall, as it starts crumbling there seems to be a lot of small particulate ejected a long distance outward and the puffs of smoke or dust just below seem curiously spaced.

Infinite_Loser

I haven't read every response in this thread, so forgive me if I say something which has already been addressed.

I'm not architect/engineer, but there is one thing that always perplexed me. Both of the towers were hit relatively high up, so how was it that they ended up collapsing? It seems to me that, if anything should have happened, the floors above the impact point should have either:

1.) Fallen off to the side (The fact that they fell straight down when the planes hit at an angle seems rather... Incredulous) or

2.) Simply caved in, but not have caused the both towers to collapse on themselves. As I stated earlier, I'm not an archtect/engineer, but it seems rather odd that the towers collapsed the way they did, considering how high up they were hit.

In fact, I remember when it happened (I was in physics class) and the thought NEVER crossed my mind that the towers would collapse, because it just didn't-- And still doesn't-- Seem possible, considering how they were hit.

I remember there being a video from Osama stating that even he was surprised that the towers caved in as they did, as he was only expecting the floors above the impact point to cave in.

That's my $.02 (A bit late, I know. But better late than never).

xepherys

Infinite_Loser, that pretty much sums up my issues as well. It makes VERY little sense. Demolition does, however, solve all of those issues.

Also note that Osama actually DENIED being invovled at first... no wonder he's never been "found" He's probably lounging at a US Embassy somewhere eating cavier on a US dime.

MSD

It'll take me more time that I can spare at work, but I have gone through that video scene-by-scene and debunked every "fact" presented. I'll try to do the same for TFP this weekend.
As a moderator, I usually exercise a lot of restraint in my responses, but the flash animation that the first link claims is a good place to get started, is a pathetic, asinine attmep at an argument. As far as 9-11 conspiracy "proofs" go, Whether you are just throwing out links or are choosing a roundabout way to out yourself as a racist, the second link adds no credibility to what I assume to be your argument in favor of conspiracy theories.

2.) Simply caved in, but not have caused the both towers to collapse on themselves. As I stated earlier, I'm not an archtect/engineer, but it seems rather odd that the towers collapsed the way they did, considering how high up they were hit.

In fact, I remember when it happened (I was in physics class) and the thought NEVER crossed my mind that the towers would collapse, because it just didn't-- And still doesn't-- Seem possible, considering how they were hit.

I remember there being a video from Osama stating that even he was surprised that the towers caved in as they did, as he was only expecting the floors above the impact point to cave in.

That's my $.02 (A bit late, I know. But better late than never).[/QUOTE]
The WTC towers were built in such a way that nothing other than a straight-down collaps was possible. The basic structure was a steel cage to which steel-reinforced concrete floors were attached with angle brackets. The collapse began when the steel beams deformed (not melted) to the point that a few floors were wrenched loose from the angle brackets. As these floors collapsed, they overloaded the angle brackets of the floors below, causing a domino-effect that continued to the ground. As the internal structural elements collapsed, the outer cage was pulled down along with it. If it were just one or two top floors collapsing, or possibly if the floors that were hit collapsed with no degradation of structural strength from fires, the buildings might have remained standing, but the damage was too widespread.

Nobody quite expected it to happen because we havd never seen fully-fueled planes crash into buildings, causing flash fires that gave way to secondary fires, which heated the structural steel enough to weaken and deform it. To answer the nagging question of "why did the WTC collapse when fire never took a building down before?" the buildings were designed to withstand fires that started in one place and spread over the course of minutes or hours, not an inferno ignited by an accelerant across several floors in only a few seconds.

samcol

Tom DeLonge from blink 182 is the latest entertainment celebrity to question government complicity/conspiracy in 9/11. I think it's good even when hollywood and rock stars come forward like Charlie Sheen and DeLonge because it exposes the topic to a greater number of people even if they don't neccessarily have the credentials to be taken seriously. However, the messages of former H.W. Bush and W. Bush administration officials and former CIA agents calling 9/11 an inside job's definetly helps add credibility to the 9/11 truth movement. Hopefully more people will follow in their footsteps.

Willravel

MSD, I have only one question for you. Look at a picture of the Pentagon crash. Look for two big holes in the wall where the massive, extreemly heavy engines would have hit. Not even a scratch. There is no reasonable explaination for the lack fo entry points for the engines, which were much stronger than the frame of the plane and the crash dome. Had a plane hit the Pentagon, there would be three holes, one in the middle, and two on the outside. There were no such holes, so whatever hit the Pentagon did not have engines mounted on wings.

cyrnel

Will, I'm not a mechanical engineer but I've seen enough to know a layman's common sense can lead to flawed assumptions.

I'd like to see a simulation or explanation for how a large jet behaves in a frontal impact. The force/area over time would be much higher for the fuselage than engines but what happens during those first moments? Does the nose crumple and the rest of the jet continue forward until the force drives the center through? Do the wings shear off and continue forward with engines, and the energies then vaporize much of what's left? Should the engines have flattened and gone poof, or would they have broken through the reinforced concrete? Or would the wings and engines stay attached and be pulled inward, into the maelstrom?

It all depends on the design of that jet, the structure, and the forces of the event. Without an engineering knowledge of everything we're out of our league.

__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

Willravel

It's simple physics. Engines don't turn into jello upon impact. Bodies in motion tend to stay in motion. A massve object collides with another object at a great speed, but doesn't leave one mark at all. I can chip away at brick with a small hammer moving relatievly slowly. Why is it that a very heavy engine that is moving at hundreds of miles per hour doesn't leave any record of a collision? Well Occam's razor tells us that the simplest explaination is that there were no large engines that struck the wall.
Honestly, there are too many variables to account for to know with 100% certianty. Here's what we do know:

-At least some part of the object that hit the Pentagon was able to punch out holes through not one, but many of the thick, reinforced walls, making it's way all the way into the inner ring

- The engines from the plane made no holes:


- The engines from the plane were the most dense and heavy part of the plane