Trevlyn

I have always been fascinated by them though, and I would think it's awesome that there might be a life after death.

But logic and understanding has led me to believe otherwise....

Shokan

And 500 years ago electricity would have been considered supernatural.

Don't be so arrogant and believe you understand everything about the world around you.

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Trevlyn

I'm not saying I understand everything. I want to be enlightened about this sort of thing, and I want to believe it exists, I just can't force myself to, which is why I posted here thinking maybe people will give examples or something.

bacon_masta

this isn't something someone else can teach you. just keep and open mind, and look for these things around yourself. you've NEVER had a paranormal experience? not even just some random event that was a little sketch that you were never able to explain? these type of things happen around us a lot, but we either don't notice or rationalize it so quickly due to our belief that it isn't possible that the idea of a paranormal experience doesn't even occur to us.

Thagrastay

You have become my hero, Shokan.

the existence or nonexistence of spirits does not prove an afterlife. They are more or less furniture in it. Remember that the world was not created for them anyway, but for the Creator, and they were created to have Fellowship with Him afterward.
The first step to breaking ground in any idea of an afterlife is giving ground to the idea that there is a God and that that God is greater than you. This is not to say that you are creating God, because friend, you aren't. You are merely recognizing the inevitable. Once you have done so, then undertand that God is not a flesh and blood being, but God's natural state is that of the Spirit. God's natural State is Love, we are told, and this makes perfect sense: Love creates, protects, sustains, provides, allows, gives, etc. God creates in the physical Universe for His own purposes, and operates in either and both universally. We as human beings are created of fleash and blood, but also imbued with a spirit that is always within reach of God if we so desire. He created us that way. We were made specifically for fellowship with Him, and of all the creatures He has made, we are His most precious, being most like Him. These flesh and blood vessels will pass away after a time and then the spiritual bodies that are eternal will be revealled fully to us before our Creator. That day will shock many. My suggestion to you, if you are willing to accept it, is to ask God. If you are uncertain whether there is a God, then ask God if there is a God. You don't have to ask in any fancy way, with flowery "Thees" and "Thous", just with a sincere curiosity. Just be ready for an answer. You'll get one.

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sipsake

Trevlyn posited a perfectly rational and common belief. It doesn't make him arrogant. You may disagree with him but it's no reason to be insulting.

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When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?"

Henry Rollins

Redjake

yeah seriously, lay off. looks like you have had to defend yourself for believing in ghosts and spirits and the supernatural ONE too many times.

he was just saying how he wishes he could find some proof that it exists, but so far he hasn't found anything. logic would show that if you haven't seen any evidence, you don't believe in it (in this particular situation).

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Shokan

All I was saying is that he was using the same logic and understanding that the people 500 years used that would make them beileve that electricity was supernatural.

Keep an open mind and lay off the accusations, please.

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Legalize it.

sipsake

You called him arrogant.

He was not using the same logic and understanding of 500 years ago. He's using 21st century skepticism and rational thought.

500 years ago they didn't need to view electricity as magic...they could stand outside during a thunderstorm and see electricity all around them. They may have been ignorant of the cause of lightning, but lightening was a reality, a verifiable physical phenomenon.

With the modern understanding of the nature of the universe it is not "arrogant" to assume that supernatural occurences are either myths or explainable by modern scientific theory.

There hasn't been a single verifiable, reproducible example of the supernatural at work in our world. It is therefore only natural that many people are sceptical of it's existence. This does not make them arrogant, it makes them rational.

As for myself, I remain skeptical and enjoy seeing the more outrageous claims of paranormal phenomenon debunked. I retain through my faith, a belief in the possibility of there being something beyond my current understanding, but I've seen no proof of it and my theology doesn't rely on it.

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When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?"

Henry Rollins

Thagrastay

This is a very silly thread.
Blah Blah Blah. Cogito ergo sum, Sum ergo cogito, Blah Blah Blahand all that silly shit.
The Rationalists have their religion, the Religionists theirs and the Scientists, theirs.
What I find amazing is that all of you, having been told there was an Easter Bunny and finding out there wasn't one, went on to believe in the Tooth Fairy. Then upon finding out there wasn't one of those either went on to believe in a Santa Claus. Then after falling for the enormous lengths they went to just to get you to believe in that, you discovered you'd been fooled again, you've fallen for evolution, too. Their stories change and their facts change to fit their stories and you still keep swallowing. You are seriously cheap date and easy dates! But what I love most of all is that you keep insisting you are skeptical! I love it!
Cogito ergo sum- until somebody comes up with a better Santa story.

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Crack

I think Thagrastay is now my new hero.

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~Halx

Zander

I have the same views as Trevlyn, but I think I may have had some paranormal experiences (maybe). Like dreams, for example, I'll have a dream about something, remember it vividly when I wake up, then maybe a month later something that happened in that dream will happen in real life and it will follow what happened in the dream until I break it and say something I didn't in the dream.

Bossnass

I'm not sure if you are serious, or if you are quoting something I'm not familiar with, but that is beside the point.

Actually, I learned that Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the tooth Fairy weren't real at the same time. It also the fundamental point when I started questioning religion and the exisitance of God. Your argument is more applicable to Religion (faith, perhaps blind) then it is to evolution. Where as evolution has doggedly gained ground and is slowly being proven, Religion is simply a more detailed Santa story.


Lest this thread continue to be hijacked by irrelevent rantings:

I would like to say that I support the comments of sipsake. He's my thread hero.

I also have no belief in spirts. I don't claim 100% that they don't exisit. I'm not here to discus theologies and metaphysics. I can see the draw of the concept of life after death. I agree that many people will be shocked as they die, but not for the same reasons.

Thagrastay

Irrelevant rantings? Cogito ergo sum: a favorite quote of the rationailsts- "I think, therefore, I am" Self realization at it's apex!Thank you for your confidence, by the way. I love rationalists. They are so... confident. I'm sorry if you were disappointed at such an early age by discovering that the childhood stories were fabrications, (and cruel ones at that) and if that may have jaded you. This same experience has profoundly wounded many people and has turned them toward a more...rational approach to things. Hence the search for explanations that are less directly metaphysical and more covertly magical in nature like that ever-elusive missing link and ever-expanding timeline that helps to cover the tracks of this silly, silly theory of evolution. But, be that as it may, and unfortunately, this HAS become a cloudy thread, there IS a spirit world, whether the rationalists choose to recognize it or not. Can it be empirically proven? Probably about as much as evolution can. In other words: It is all begins with faith.

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

Redjake

I never believed in Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy. It was just too unbelievable. How in the world could a man deliver presents to the entire world in one night. It's impossible.


I guess when I was 5 I was looking into things too much.

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Off the record, on the q.t., and very hush-hush.

phunktastic

Thagrastay, could you explain what you're talking about with evolution. I'm following you until you get to that. What do you mean? I think there is a clear difference between the tooth fairy and evolution. Evolution is supported by evidence, the tooth fairy was made up and told to people even though the people telling it knew it wasn't true.

btw,

you seem fairly arrogant yourself.

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"Relax, the world will spin beside itself and suck you in. With threats and hopes beyond compare"

Thagrastay

Arrogant? Perhaps. Probably. yes. I am arrogant. And with absolutely no right to be, so I apologize and ask that you please forgive me my hubris.
A few bridges must be burnt to answer your question and I am not certain that this is the appropriate thread for that. But I will try and see what comes of it.
Evolution's evidences are as grounded in reality as are the evidences for Santa Claus. Testamony, costumes, toys and tradition. But beyond that, it beomes more difficult, and the game and story becomes grander and a bit more stretched.
Certainly, there are bones. Certainly, there are rocks and fossils and dates. But the here the game gets a bit tricky. The age of the fossils, you see, are based upon the age of the rocks in which they are found. Solid enough dating, that.
But the date of the rocks are based upon the ages in which the fossils have been known to be found. Now we have a circular system.
I could go on, but I will not. Evolution is a religion and nothing more than that. It is entirely faith-based with a few colored rocks and gems and bones and trinkets to appeal to those whom it would. But it has no true evidences any more than Santa or the Tooth Fairy or The Easter Bunny did, other wise it would not have so many holes and need so many updates and improvements in it's theories and postulations.
The sad part in all of this, is that thius particular myth is getting more propagandist hard-sell than Santa ever did. And when someone moves that magic rock one day and the whole huose of cards comes tumbling down and the truth of it is revealled, there are going to be some very, very upset children wanting to know why their teachers and scientists lied to them.
I would not want to be in their shoes when that day comes. I know that.

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

phunktastic

I still think there is a difference. We have carbon dating to tell us how old things are, and knowledge about how layers of rocks are formed to back that up.

Are you talking about [bold]all[/bold] evolution or just the theory that humans are related to early apes? Evolution on the small scale is as proven as a theory can be proven. We *know* that life forms adapt to their surroundings because we've observed it happening again and again.

Science is always being built upon. Sure some things turn out to be different than we though, but the idea is that with each revision it becomes more exact than before.

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"Relax, the world will spin beside itself and suck you in. With threats and hopes beyond compare"

sipsake

Hehehe...what about Trolls, do they exist?

__________________
When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?"

Henry Rollins

Thagrastay

adaptation and evolution are two entirely different things altogether.
We adapt, but make no permamnent changes. Whereas evolution demands that we make permamnent changes to submit to our changing surroundings. I submit that to be hogwash.
For the most part, and evolutionists just can't seem to get past this point, suddenly, there came upon the scene, very complex creatures, especially homonids, who were using tools, walking uprights and looking exactly as we do today. Hmmmmmmm.
Between that and the fact that the eyeball has never changed at all and is now as it was way back when, even in the primordial ooze, says a great deal aboput creation.

Trolls. I have no idea. Could they be Big Foot?

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

Bossnass

Imagine someone with such strong and often expressed beliefs as yourself claiming evolution uses a circular argument. A little ironic.

The eye argument has also been refuted, a simple google search will show you the light. Indeed, most every 'hole' has been or is in the process of being filled. Ev*lutionary theory, by its very nature, can be updated and improved based on real empircal learnings through scientific methods.

Agreed, this is not the place. I venture to no place that refutes logic and reason.

/flame off

Thagrastay

My whole premise is that as much as it would like to be, and as much as it is wanted to be, Evolution is NOT proven and won't be because it is just another fairy tale along the lines of the ones I've previously mentioned. Though this one has received greater press and more publication, it will do the same thing as the others and that is to make fools of those who have jumped aboard to believe it.
Mark my words!

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

phunktastic

You seem to ignore the strong scientific backing of the theory. This is something that's been built upon and improved since its begining. It accounts for real observations.

And we don't age rocks and fossils by other rocks or fossils around them, we find their age through carbon dating.

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"Relax, the world will spin beside itself and suck you in. With threats and hopes beyond compare"

Thagrastay

Correct me if I am wrong, but here is the circle-

Geology-archeology-paleontology-biology-zoology-chemistry- sociology-psychology,et al. The children of Evolutionary Theory.

Is not every event or piece or rock or bone or segment or sedimentary level begun with a foregone conclusion?

Anything found, donated or studied is assumed to fit into the evolutionary theory, and thus when the time comes- MADE to fit into the evolutionary picture.

I have no use for the Religion of science. There is no objectivity there. There are only men and women in tall hats and long robes who have already decided the way things are and have long ago forgotten their true callings. They have instead their grants and titles and papers and documents and letters and in those cases when you disagree too loudly- they have also, their Grand Inquisitors to label you as they wish.

The new law of Science is:

Don't Fuck with the Status Quo!


But all fairy stories eventually wear out. This one about evolution will as well. My suggestion is not to take these folk too seriously. They are only guessing and painting pretty pictures. They refuse to listen to the One who WAS there, because that would put them out of a job. Or so they think. BUt that is where the real problem lies and always has- Hubris. Hubris-and pride coming before the fall.

Cogito ergo sum!

What a silly waste of time, that. It has caused alot of people a lot of heartache. And for what? It's not the working class that have the time to contemplate such things. It is always the monied that have the time to stir up the pot and start problems that they themselves remain uninvolved in when the time comes to shed the blood.

And the spirits laugh at you.
Because the Spirits Know God
And They Fear Him greatly.

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

sipsake

Ok, since you asked. You're wrong.
That's not a circle, it's a line.

__________________
When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?"

Henry Rollins

phunktastic

As far as I can tell, you just listen off random sciences. Care to explain the cycle?

Anything found is added to the well of knowledge and used to update the theory. Different areas of science (for example, using Chemistry to date a bone sample) are used to verify one another. Just because you do not understand how something works doesn't mean somebody just made it up. These sections of science exist because of observations made, not to just randomly say they exist.

No objectivity there? Objectivity is what science is all about. Science is objectivity. Make an observation, record it, check it with the observations others have made.

Wow. What are you even talking about now? Are you just trying to sound mystical? Scientists wear top hats and robes? Well, I guess lab scientists do wear lab coats. What is their "true calling" and how have they forgotten it?

Science has always been about testing the status quo. Prove it right or prove it wrong.

I'm begning to think you're completely dillusional, if you say blood will be shed over evolution? If it is proven wrong it will be proven wrong and replaced with a new and better theory. This is pretty much the accepted process, why would anyone shed blood over it?

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"Relax, the world will spin beside itself and suck you in. With threats and hopes beyond compare"

Thagrastay

Pardon me for waxing poetic. I forgot I was dealing with the rationalists.

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

Thagrastay

Now, you are absolutely -and I use that word specifically and in a very real and scientific sense- mistaken when you claim science has always has always been about testing the status quo.
To be more direct, I would say you are the one who is dillusional!
Science IS the staus quo!
Science is even more than that! It is the Religion of the Post Modernists.
I've lost you again, haven't I?
Too much concept, not enough dust and numbers?

Blood Has already been shed over evolution and will continue to be, and the fact that you do not recognize that speaks volumes about your naiivete and ability to grasp reality beyond the theorum.

Consider this for a moment- Evolution is the Law of the Fittest.
Morality and religion are therefore constructs of arbitrary value and actually impede the process of bringing about the inevitable supermen.
Ergo, there is no need for moral or religious restraint, and it is in the best interests of the human race to be rid of all semblances of these archaic constructs.

This brings us to what Aliester Crowley once claimed: "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law"
It is every man and woman for themselves.
We are the naked apes!

BUT!

If there is a purpose to this- and I am willing to bet there is- and there is actual evidence of creation rather than accidental suddenness, then there is reason, rather than randomness.

It all depends upon one's point of view, and from which point one begins their search.

I have lost you completely, haven't I?

Well, be that as it may, I am finished with this thread. I do hope it hasn't offended your sensibilities too greatly. Ofr if it has, perhaps there is a point in which you will evolve better sensibilities.
Be well, be safe.
Be at peace.

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

Bossnass

"Be at peace."

Thanks Thag. You're comments are both condensing and rather revealing of your true ignorance. Many have waxed poetic and spoken eloquently to hide their lack of real content and their insecurities. I've dealt with enough of the Blind Fundies to recognise your abandonment of this thread as a victory. Granted this thread has long turned from it's original intent, so feel free to PM me for future discussions. I am the son of man- not offended but somewhat amused.

Thagrastay

I abandon this thread due to a serious sinus infection, not your rapier wit or blinding facts.
I am going to bed to recuperate.
If during that period you solve the evolutionary puzzle, or Santa shows you where the North Pole really is, do let me know, please.

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

Bossnass

Once you find someone with healing hands and you are again in appropriate condition, feel free to PM.

SVT01Cobra

Penn & Teller's Bullshit, anyone?

Clearly, we are arguing and nothing is going to change your opinions...

I personally, believe in evolution, simply because there IS evidence to support it. As for Religionists trying to pass religion off as a science, THAT is bullshit.

It's hard to believe in one religion when so much contradicting evidence comes about.
Evolution, if it is infact true, completely proves the idea of Christianity, and many other religions WRONG. And they are SCARED. That's why they are trying to keep evolution from being taught in school, and that is why they are trying to teach religion as a SCIENCE.

Forgive me if I've pissed some of you off, and I'm sure I have, but COMMON sense would tell you that the story of Noah and his Arc is complete BS. Gathering 2 of EVERY SINGLE ANIMAL in the world on his boat?!
Sounds more like a fairytale to me. It is nothing more than a story to entertain children.

Remember, all of the above are simply MY opinions. If you disagree, feel free and try to include some intelligent arguments.

phunktastic

We're starting to hear more and more people say that the Bible is not to be taken literally, but instead as a group of stories and lessons. Religion can adapt itself to ahere to social changes.

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"Relax, the world will spin beside itself and suck you in. With threats and hopes beyond compare"

SVT01Cobra

In other words, cover up for their own mistakes?

Lebell

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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