Jesus - fake or real?

[ipollux]

I want to believe (thank you preacher), but I just can't. I think that humans have great imaginations. I think that Jesus could have been based on something real at one point (genetic anomoly?), but now its just an urban legend.

I'd like to think its just some hermit up in the clouds...

[LoganSnake]

Might have been a real human being at some point in time. No way the son of god, prophet or what have you.

[SecretMethod70]

I'm not sure if I follow what you're asking.

Are you asking if the person of Jesus who the stories are (loosely) based on existed? In that case, I would say the chances are very good that he did.

Or are you asking if Jesus as described in the Christian bible existed and continues to exist? In that case, it's all a matter of faith, but there's no logical reason to believe that being ever existed.

The historical Jesus and the mythological Jesus are two different entities, and neither needs the other to be viable.

[Willravel]

There's very little extra-Biblical evidence for Jesus. If you don't believe in the Bible, you don't really have any reason to believe that it was based on a Jesus. It was probably just a combination of old myths and a particular man named Apollonius of Tyana (virgin birth, healer, raised dea, walk through walls, persecuted, brought to trial, crucified, rose from the dead and ascended to heaven... sound familiar?).

[JumpinJesus]

I believe Jesus existed. I believe he was a buddha. Do I believe it is the immaculately concepted son of the almighty? No.

[Baraka_Guru]

I think Christianity is over 90% appropriation of pagan myths, practices, and beliefs.

Jesus may have existed. I don't see why not. But he only exists now as a cultural phenomenon. Even Aristotle exists, and Shakespeare, in similar fashions. They are a part of our culture and will have meaning for a very long time.

I don't believe in deities.

[mixedmedia]

I could answer the poll question if you used the word 'did' instead of 'does.'

do I think he lived? yes
do I think he lives on? no

[ipollux]

For the most part, I agree with everyone. I meant the question to be does he still exist now as a deity of sorts, which I do not believe. As for did he once exist, perhaps, but I have no way to know for sure and feel like it doesn't really matter.

I kind of feel the same way about dinosaurs ...

[RetroGunslinger]

I agree with the general consensus. There is simply no valid reason to believe in Jesus as anything more than (possibly) some guy with one hell of a cult following.

[JumpinJesus]

You should see the people outside our apartment.

[Milkyway]

I believe. I seem to be of the minority, but that's cool with me. I have felt Him in a way I could never fully describe with words.

I am a very sexual and very spiritual person, although many people would say that's an oxymoron.

I cannot deny what I have felt, what I have seen, the personal miracles of my own life; but I do know that there are people all over the world that "feel" their Gods in a spiritual way, that have witnessed "miracles" and believe in their religion because of these things.

I will make a statement that many would say contradicts Christianity: I believe that there is a God and that anyone truly seeking God will find Him/Her, I believe that only way for ME to reach God is through Jesus Christ, however I also believe that others may reach God through other means.

Am I correct, I don't know, but I do know I will follow the inner feelings that I have and trust them as they have kept me safe for years and given me peace at my darkest hours.

Without my belief in Jesus I can guarantee I would have taken my own life a long time ago, if that's the only purpose He serves, than it is a worthwhile one, IMO.

Originally Posted by ipollux

I kind of feel the same way about dinosaurs ...

You seriously don't think dinosaurs exist? What's up with that?

[ipollux]

Originally Posted by Milkyway

You seriously don't think dinosaurs exist? What's up with that?

As for did he once exist, perhaps, but I have no way to know for sure and feel like it doesn't really matter.

Meaning, they probably did, but it doesn't really matter to me. In other words, as far as Jesus or the Dinosaurs ever existing, I don't care.

[Milkyway]

ipollux:

I see, I miss read.

Yeah, I don't think dinosaurs matter much to me either or at all actually, except that you have to learn about them in school, but I digress.

[Grasshopper Green]

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

I could answer the poll question if you used the word 'did' instead of 'does.'

do I think he lived? yes
do I think he lives on? no

This pretty much sums it up for me. I believe he existed and was probably smarter than the average bear. I don't believe in the immaculate conception, the resurrection, or the turning water into wine stuff.

[Sun Tzu]

To me the Bible has a much historical truth as the Odyessy written by Homer.

Jesus = Santa Clause . . . IMO

The idea of God in general regardless of which religion has become dangerous and threatens humanity as a whole. Not from the idea of God itself, but the actions motivating perceived "truth".

**EDIT*** I had a video posted showing that was shot by a British film crew in Israel in 2006. While the video itself was extremely interesting; it had a website at the end of it. I did not check out the site in the numerous times I watched the video. I finally did check it out after posting it here. It turned out to be a white supremist / racial hate site. If anyone watched the video and took enough interest to follow to the site, I appologize. That does not represent my views or the point I was making in posting this example.

[ipollux]

God is dead, and no one cares. If there is a hell, I'll see you there.

[Milkyway]

Originally Posted by ipollux

God is dead, and no one cares. If there is a hell, I'll see you there.

I see your Heresy by Nine Inch Nails

and raise you Closer By Nine Inch Nails

"I wanna f**k you like an animal
My whole existence is flawed
You get me closer to God"

That happens to be one of my favorite songs actually!

[jorgelito]

Yes Jesus is very real.

Thank you.

[RetroGunslinger]

Wow, Sun Tzu, that video really speaks volumes about how the belief in God (in this case represented by Jesus) can take on numerous, sometimes horrendous faces. Knowing there are people out there like that, be them drunk or not, is really quite frightening and completely ruins any points using the "X population believes in Jesus" argument.

Not that it proves anything about the existence of Christ, just commenting.

[ottopilot]

I once followed way of the gourd, but now I believe the shoe is the righteous path to salvation.

The scriptures are clear:

"He has given us... his shoe! The shoe is the sign. Let us follow His example. Let us, like Him, hold up one shoe and let the other be upon our foot, for this is His sign, that all who follow Him shall do likewise. The shoe is a sign that we must gather shoes together in abundance.

Let us gather shoes together! It is a sign that, like Him, we must think not of the things of the body, but of the face and head!

Give me your shoe! Hold up the sandal, as He has commanded us! Take the shoes and follow Him!"

[Poppinjay]

Not believing a deity exists makes absolutely no difference to the deity. The idea of a deity is something that does NOT exist, at least in any we can understand.

It's kind of like asking if karma exists.

Or the old joke about religion.

One man asks the other if wants to go to a Sunday service.

The other says, "I don't believe in the church's doctrines".

The first man says, "oh, I've actually SEEN them, I can assure you, they do exist."

Do you believe in homosexual marriage? It's happening in California, so you would be wrong if you didn't.

Do you believe in get quick rich schemes? They exist every day in your e-mail inbox.

Do you believe in corporal punishment? Even some public schools still practice it.

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

Do you believe in corporal punishment? Even some public schools still practice it.

Not so sure about that one.

Corporal punishment may be very much akin to Jesus Christ.
Both existed...at one time...but not any longer.

[Poppinjay]

Come to the deep south. Misbehave.

Whappity whap.

[RetroGunslinger]

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

Come to the deep south. Misbehave.

Whappity whap.

Seconded.

[ipollux]

That's awesome that out of nowhere a coalition of believers voted. Praise god! Hallelujah!

</sarcasm>

[Poppinjay]

ipollux, don't be sarcastic about believers. I believe, I have, and I have one of them high falootin private college edumacations.

This belief is not at odds with TFP. Halx buit a great community at absolute odds to what I think. Tecoyah and Charlatan and so many others offer such great direction and help at this site that I'd be a fool to dis them. They're great.

What does that have to do with me? Nothing. I think I have some ideas worth expressing, but I'm not the omnipresent force here. Am I happy here? You betcha. Am I responsible for management? No.

Who built your neighborhood?

[ipollux]

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

ipollux, don't be sarcastic about believers. I believe, I have, and I have one of them high falootin private college edumacations.

This belief is not at odds with TFP. Halx buit a great community at absolute odds to what I think. Tecoyah and Charlatan and so many others offer such great direction and help at this site that I'd be a fool to dis them. They're great.

What does that have to do with me? Nothing. I think I have some ideas worth expressing, but I'm not the omnipresent force here. Am I happy here? You betcha. Am I responsible for management? No.

Who built your neighborhood?

Honest apologies. I realize opinions can be expressed without using condescending sarcasm--sometimes I get carried away.

[MSD]

I don't believe in things. There's what's true, what's false, what we don't know yet, and what we can't know. I'm not concerned with the last category because belief takes up valuable time and brain power that can be dedicated to facts.

Evidence that I've seen points to a man who is remembered and referred to as "Jesus" in modern English having existed around two thousand years ago, but not much verifiable beyond that. I doubt that anything verifiable will come up to change what I think, and I doubt that evidence or lack thereof will change the mind of people who concern themselves with belief.

[RonRyan85]

Sure Jesus lived,died and came back to life 3 days later...just like the Bible predicted he would do it.
Being the Son of God ,he had the power and God had a plan for all of Mankind to live forever in his
heaven IF we believed in JESUS and GOD. Sounds like I believe the HOLY BIBLE doesn't it? There
are too many things in the Bible that are true NOT to believe it. (Another thing: What if I am right
and non-believers are WRONG ? )

[roachboy]

why aren't there "both" or "neither" options in the poll?

[The_Jazz]

Originally Posted by RonRyan85

Sure Jesus lived,died and came back to life 3 days later...just like the Bible predicted he would do it.
Being the Son of God ,he had the power and God had a plan for all of Mankind to live forever in his
heaven IF we believed in JESUS and GOD. Sounds like I believe the HOLY BIBLE doesn't it? There
are too many things in the Bible that are true NOT to believe it. (Another thing: What if I am right
and non-believers are WRONG ? )

Ummm, Ron, no offense intended at all, but the Bible wasn't written when Jesus died. The Old Testament was, but not one single word of the New Testament was.

And if you're right and non-believers are wrong, Heaven's going to be a comparatively empty place, what with all the Hundi's, Bhuddists and whatnot that have ever lived and died. Not to mention the Mormons.

[ipollux]

If the Bible is right, I think Jesus is shady. For more information on why, read my blog. But in short, it's because that means he's sending good, innocent people who've never been exposed to him or have, but like all of us have no proof of his existence, to suffer for an eternity.

So, Ron, when you say stuff like what if you're right and non-believers are wrong, you make it sound like you're playing it safe. As if just in case it's true, you're going to play along. Well, something like that's not going to control how I live my life.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by RonRyan85

Sure Jesus lived,died and came back to life 3 days later...just like the Bible predicted he would do it.
Being the Son of God ,he had the power and God had a plan for all of Mankind to live forever in his
heaven IF we believed in JESUS and GOD. Sounds like I believe the HOLY BIBLE doesn't it? There
are too many things in the Bible that are true NOT to believe it. (Another thing: What if I am right
and non-believers are WRONG ? )

I will enthusiastically state, I do my very best not judge others or their beliefs. The obvious motivation for this being the many faults I carry sober me of doing so. Even in debates where I am totally the opposite in beliefs, I strive to understand why other side sees they way they do. When it comes to this topic, I will admittingly confess that minor frustration sets in. Not enough to ever down someone for their spiritual beliefs, but to suggest research. I am a former Christian that saw atheists as lost souls; shaking my head with a “if they only knew” attitude. I saw advice to research history outside the Bible as either a waste of time or in some cases the devil trying to influence me. After all what more did I need other than the Bible. After years of research applying critical thought and several visits to Israel with an archeologist; I began to fully understand a diiferent acceptance. When the interest of science and quantum physics took hold, it was the last push to where I am today.

That is, I don’t know what God is. There is currently nothing other than the Bible that suggests (or Koran) that the reality we now know, (the laws of physics and other displines of science) will someday cascade to a permanent supernatural exsistence when the Mesiah returns in a light of heavenly glory. There is nothing to suggest that humanity deserves to keep this planet if it doesn’t use the evolved tool it has- the brain to stop blaming its shortcomings on a central unseen force that instigates the motivation of what this civilization (in its many facets) has determined as being “evil”. I don’t know what god is, but when I look at the universe in its majestic span of time- I cant help but think that whatever, if there is a supreme creator of something of this magnitude, its very arrogant to think that there is anything “we” simple carbon based beings on this tiny speck of dust could do anything that would offend it.


There is plenty that offends us though. Think about what one single thing has caused more wars than anything else in history.
Whether you do or don’t, I will still suggest that you research how the Bible was written. If you do, also keep in mind these were men; human beings writing from stories and accounts passed down. Not from words burnt into rock of metal from a scientifically unknown source left as an enigma, but writings just like mythology. While if you ever decide to venture down this path; finding your own sources is the best here are examples:

Christian Texts

Dating Early Christian Gospels

from jesus to christ: the first christians: from hebrew bible to christian bible

Bibliography of some of the Bible research resources used by BibleTexts

The Old Testament is not the whole literature of Israel, nor is the New Testament the whole literature of early Christianity. Many other books with religious themes circulated among those of ancient Judaism and in the early church. Some of these books are called pseudepigrapha, a Greek term meaning "spurious writings." Among Judaism's pseudepigrapha are: The Letter of Aristeas, III and IV Maccabees, the Ascension of Isaiah, the Testament of Job, the Life of Adam and Eve, the Psalms of Solomon, and the Assumption of Moses. The Christian pseudepigrapha include various gospels, books of acts, epistles, and revelations.

Of the vast literature that circulated in ancient Israel and in the early church, only a small number of works came to be included in the Bible. Those that were eventually included make up what is called the canon (from a Greek term for standard) of the Old and New Testaments. This meant that there was a consensus in both Judaism and Christianity concerning the authoritative books of their religions. New Testament canon. The 27 books of the New Testament are the only canonical books out of many writings considered sacred by the Christians of the 1st and 2nd centuries AD. The process of sifting to form the final canon took another 200 years.

There were two chief reasons for the formation of a definitive New Testament canon. As the church moved from the 1st to the 2nd century, it was obvious that the oral tradition concerning Jesus and the work of the apostles was ending because the original witnesses were dying. And a number of sects and heresies (schools of doctrine) had emerged, each laying claim to the correct interpretation of the Gospel. Both of these factors made it imperative for the church to collect those writings that most accurately presented its message. The principles by which books were accepted as canonical were three: they had to have the authority of apostolic teaching in them; they had to present true doctrine; and they had to have been widely circulated.

The first part of the New Testament to gain general acceptance was a collection of the letters of Paul, in circulation before the end of the 1st century. The four Gospels were widely regarded as canonical by the end of the 2nd century. The rest were slowly received, but by AD 325 the historian Eusebius of Caesarea made a compilation that listed most of the present canon and left a few books on the list as disputed. In 367 Athanasius, the bishop of Alexandria, Egypt, made a canonical list of all the presently accepted New Testament books. Church councils in subsequent decades established his list as final. Still, controversy over the Book of Revelation and some of the Catholic Epistles lasted for at least two centuries.

None of the original Bible manuscripts exists. They were lost centuries ago, and the texts that are now in the Bible represent copies of copies that were handed down in a variety of translations over many generations. The most famous version of the Old Testament is a Greek translation, the Septuagint, made at Alexandria by about 70 Jewish scholars beginning in the 3rd century BC. Another famous ancient translation, including both testaments, is the Latin Vulgate (common, or vernacular) made by St. Jerome in about AD 400. Throughout the Middle Ages the Bible was translated and copied by hand, a process prone to error. It was only with the invention of printing in the late 15th century that fixed, invariable texts of the Bible could be published.

In the 20th century the Bible has often been updated--mainly to eliminate archaic translations and reflect contemporary usage. The American Standard Version of 1901 was followed by a rephrasing of the New Testament in 1946 and the Old Testament in 1952. Among the more than two dozen different English translations of the whole Bible published since then was the New Revised Standard Version (1990).

Christianity, The Bible

[Herk]

Originally Posted by Milkyway

I see your Heresy by Nine Inch Nails

and raise you Closer By Nine Inch Nails

"I wanna f**k you like an animal
My whole existence is flawed
You get me closer to God"

That happens to be one of my favorite songs actually!

That's string betting.

I don't think he ever did. There are very few historical records that mention his name as a person at all, and those that do are considered very questionable.

I will say though, that the existence of Jesus Christ is probably one of the least questionable thing Christians believe.

[RonRyan85]

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Ummm, Ron, no offense intended at all, but the Bible wasn't written when Jesus died. The Old Testament was, but not one single word of the New Testament was.

Yes, but all the things about his birth,death and resurrection were written in
the OLD Testament hundreds of years before Jesus was born. That's what I
was writing about.

[Atreides88]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

That is, I don’t know what God is. There is currently nothing other than the Bible that suggests (or Koran) that the reality we now know, (the laws of physics and other displines of science) will someday cascade to a permanent supernatural exsistence when the Mesiah returns in a light of heavenly glory. There is nothing to suggest that humanity deserves to keep this planet if it doesn’t use the evolved tool it has- the brain to stop blaming its shortcomings on a central unseen force that instigates the motivation of what this civilization (in its many facets) has determined as being “evil”. I don’t know what god is, but when I look at the universe in its majestic span of time- I cant help but think that whatever, if there is a supreme creator of something of this magnitude, its very arrogant to think that there is anything “we” simple carbon based beings on this tiny speck of dust could do anything that would offend it.

It's because there is no evidence to support the resurrection and the life everlasting, but that's where faith comes in. Christians take it on as a matter of faith, nothing more nothing less. Jesus himself said that there is no way we can understand it or understand God's plans, as we are mere mortals and if we could understand it all, it would make God and Jesus rather unnecessary.

Why don't you think that we, a bunch of vulgar and hate-filled creatures, could offend a supreme diety with what we do everyday? War, hate, genocide, murder, theft, adultery, dishonesty, those would sure offend me.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by Atreides88

It's because there is no evidence to support the resurrection and the life everlasting, but that's where faith comes in. Christians take it on as a matter of faith, nothing more nothing less. Jesus himself said that there is no way we can understand it or understand God's plans, as we are mere mortals and if we could understand it all, it would make God and Jesus rather unnecessary.

Why don't you think that we, a bunch of vulgar and hate-filled creatures, could offend a supreme diety with what we do everyday? War, hate, genocide, murder, theft, adultery, dishonesty, those would sure offend me.

A couple of questions: are you of the belief that humans are born "tainted with sin", or do you think that new born babies are truly innocent?







Would you find it more an aspect of faith than a calculated statisic that there is other intellegent life in the vastness of the known universe (not even our own Milky Way, but the whole)


Ive been to the garden tomb several times, the only physical anomoly I found was a piece of a metal rod within the rock that used to hold the stone door in place. It had been sheared. The tour guides did not mention for some reason. While some people would see that as something left by an angel that came down and flung the gate open, I see it as a metal rod that used to be there. Other than that; there is nothing else. The faith of millions is based on a writing that was written by MEN who say they were inspired by God, and then edited several times after that.

Athanasius of Alexandria and men (and I do mean men- women were not part of this editing process) like him have dictated what millions place their faith in.

Book of Adam and Eve, Book of Jubilees, Book of Enoch, Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Proto-Gospel of James, Gnostic Scriptures of Nag Hammadi, Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Nicodemus, Apocalypse of Peter, so on and so on . . . what are your thoughts on them? Have you ever read them, any of them?

[Atreides88]

My answers in bold.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

A couple of questions: are you of the belief that humans are born "tainted with sin", or do you think that new born babies are truly innocent?

I believe all humans are sinners, no matter their age. All of our hearts are black and dead with sin, that is why we need Jesus in order for us to be saved. Without Jesus we would be eternally trapped in our own sorrow and misery.

*pictures*

Would you find it more an aspect of faith than a calculated statisic that there is other intellegent life in the vastness of the known universe (not even our own Milky Way, but the whole)

I think that the it's both. I think that it's a well calculated statistic that there are other intelligent forms of life out there, but since we can't yet prove it, I take it on faith that the calculations are correct.

Ive been to the garden tomb several times, the only physical anomoly I found was a piece of a metal rod within the rock that used to hold the stone door in place. It had been sheared. The tour guides did not mention for some reason. While some people would see that as something left by an angel that came down and flung the gate open, I see it as a metal rod that used to be there. Other than that; there is nothing else. The faith of millions is based on a writing that was written by MEN who say they were inspired by God, and then edited several times after that.

What do you expect to be left in the tomb? It's been over 1500 years since Jesus was alive. It's been visited by crusaders, ancient Christians, and millions of tourists. Did you expect there to be any relics left? Did you expect to find Jesus waiting there to tell you "I told you so?" Jesus died, Jesus descended into Hell, and then Jesus rose again and left the tomb. You may disagree and just say that he was an ordinary man, and that's your own faith or lack thereof.

Athanasius of Alexandria and men (and I do mean men- women were not part of this editing process) like him have dictated what millions place their faith in.

What about the Books of Esther and Ruth?

Book of Adam and Eve, Book of Jubilees, Book of Enoch, Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Proto-Gospel of James, Gnostic Scriptures of Nag Hammadi, Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Nicodemus, Apocalypse of Peter, so on and so on . . . what are your thoughts on them? Have you ever read them, any of them?
I've never read them, so I have no thoughts on the matter. The important message is that in order to be saved, one must believe in God and Jesus Christ, and accept Him as his or her savior. The secondary message to live your life the best you can and love your neighbor as yourself is also important.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by Atreides88

I believe all humans are sinners, no matter their age. All of our hearts are black and dead with sin, that is why we need Jesus in order for us to be saved. Without Jesus we would be eternally trapped in our own sorrow and misery.

Newborn babies . . . sinners. . . Even when I was a devoted Christian, the question of why a loving God would allow babies to be born with deformities and suffering was always present. The answers: it is God’s will, or who are we to question the choices of God never set with me. The way I looked at is if God gave us such a developed brain to think and apply logic then it should only be natural to be inquisitive. But such a process brings the reader straight back to the first story- why we are looked upon as “sinners” in the first place- because of knowledge. Therefore the quest for knowledge is what dammed us all in the first place, right? Control. Take elements such as logic, reason, and “the bible tells me so and set them aside; can you really look at the babies below or any baby for that matter and in your heart really believe they are sinners? Beings that have absolutely no experience in life, have not done anything to anyone, and have only taken their first breaths of life.

Originally Posted by Atreides88

I think that the it's both. I think that it's a well calculated statistic that there are other intelligent forms of life out there, but since we can't yet prove it, I take it on faith that the calculations are correct.

For me it is not even a faith issue. The size of the universe we can visually see is so immense that IMO other life is a certainty. The universe is also a chaotic place. We see gamma bursts happening every night. If one of those happened anywhere near our solar system it would destroy all the life on this planet. Do you think a gamma burst that takes out a civilization is evil? Or is it how chaos ran its course?

At least we can be comforted that God will never destroy the life on Earth by WATER again. Although no promise is ever made about fire breathing harpies raining down upon is. Although I don’t think people living in Indonesia, Sri Lanka, India, and Thailand gave much faith to that promise. I wonder how many Christians spent Christmas in that part of the world in 2004.

Originally Posted by Atreides88

What do you expect to be left in the tomb? It's been over 1500 years since Jesus was alive. It's been visited by crusaders, ancient Christians, and millions of tourists. Did you expect there to be any relics left? Did you expect to find Jesus waiting there to tell you "I told you so?" Jesus died, Jesus descended into Hell, and then Jesus rose again and left the tomb. You may disagree and just say that he was an ordinary man, and that's your own faith or lack thereof.

Napoleon died and is longer here, Henry the VIII died and is longer among us, Einstein died and isn’t around anymore. I have no doubt they existed, neither is there controversy as to whether or not they walked the Earth. You obviously didn’t watch the third clip so Ill post it again. While I disagree with some of the writings of Fleming; he presents honest and fair questions. You didn’t watch the third clip perhaps you can provide some insight to what is being asked here.

Originally Posted by Atreides88

What about the Books of Esther and Ruth?

I said edited. The literary work people read in the present is the result of generations of stories and accounts of gospels that have been edited, chopped, deleted according to what they saw as being important. Let’s assume the Bible had more to it than Homer’s Odyssey; it seems in the course of all of the decision making to create philosophies people are going to live by, no one was paying attention to Revelation 22:18. Followers of Joseph Smith’s writings better hope John was only talking about his project and not the whole collection huh?

Originally Posted by Atreides88

I've never read them, so I have no thoughts on the matter.

If you value the Bible especially the New Testament, then it is a safe bet you value what you perceive as the preaching’s of Jesus Christ. Then you should find great importance in the Apocryphon. The reason you haven’t read them is because the editors that were doing the picking and choosing didn’t want you to read them. They were lost for a very long time for a reason. But they’re here now. The issue is they have as much foundation for being the philosophies of Yeshua as the edited works known as the New Testament. The real problem is if you do read them you are going to find the message differs from what is taught from King James.

Originally Posted by Atreides88

The important message is that in order to be saved, one must believe in God and Jesus Christ, and accept Him as his or her savior.

Then the Jews have it worse over everyone huh? This is where the Church really did an effective number on millions. Athanasius and others like him have provided the dictations under which God’s influence will reign. The Apocalypse of Peter states everyone will be saved. Everyone. This kind of philosophy would drastically change the way people would have lived their lives. The concept of being forgiven and saved even if you go to hell for a few hundred years would have meant the sinful living did not carry a permanent sentence with it. Hell is eventually going to be empty according to this Gospel. Such information would have taken control away from the early church. What does being saved really mean anyway?

Originally Posted by Atreides88

The secondary message to live your life the best you can and love your neighbor as yourself is also important.

Kind of like the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland? The Crusades? The Inquisition? I agree that it is an important message: Lau Tzu was saying it 600 years before the speculated time Yeshua was even born, and he wasn’t even doing miracles.

[speshul-k]

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

I could answer the poll question if you used the word 'did' instead of 'does.'

do I think he lived? yes
do I think he lives on? no

I'm with you on this one.
It comes down to the while factual existence of a man.
Verses the supernatural existence of a higher being.