ipollux

I want to believe (thank you preacher), but I just can't. I think that humans have great imaginations. I think that Jesus could have been based on something real at one point (genetic anomoly?), but now its just an urban legend.

I'd like to think its just some hermit up in the clouds...

LoganSnake

Might have been a real human being at some point in time. No way the son of god, prophet or what have you.

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Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

SecretMethod70

I'm not sure if I follow what you're asking.

Are you asking if the person of Jesus who the stories are (loosely) based on existed? In that case, I would say the chances are very good that he did.

Or are you asking if Jesus as described in the Christian bible existed and continues to exist? In that case, it's all a matter of faith, but there's no logical reason to believe that being ever existed.

The historical Jesus and the mythological Jesus are two different entities, and neither needs the other to be viable.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Willravel

There's very little extra-Biblical evidence for Jesus. If you don't believe in the Bible, you don't really have any reason to believe that it was based on a Jesus. It was probably just a combination of old myths and a particular man named Apollonius of Tyana (virgin birth, healer, raised dea, walk through walls, persecuted, brought to trial, crucified, rose from the dead and ascended to heaven... sound familiar?).

JumpinJesus

I believe Jesus existed. I believe he was a buddha. Do I believe it is the immaculately concepted son of the almighty? No.

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Baraka_Guru

I think Christianity is over 90% appropriation of pagan myths, practices, and beliefs.

Jesus may have existed. I don't see why not. But he only exists now as a cultural phenomenon. Even Aristotle exists, and Shakespeare, in similar fashions. They are a part of our culture and will have meaning for a very long time.

I don't believe in deities.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

mixedmedia

I could answer the poll question if you used the word 'did' instead of 'does.'

do I think he lived? yes
do I think he lives on? no

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

ipollux

For the most part, I agree with everyone. I meant the question to be does he still exist now as a deity of sorts, which I do not believe. As for did he once exist, perhaps, but I have no way to know for sure and feel like it doesn't really matter.

I kind of feel the same way about dinosaurs ...

RetroGunslinger

I agree with the general consensus. There is simply no valid reason to believe in Jesus as anything more than (possibly) some guy with one hell of a cult following.

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It's a rare pleasure in this world to get your mind fucked. Usually it's just foreplay.

M.B. Keene

JumpinJesus

You should see the people outside our apartment.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Milkyway

I believe. I seem to be of the minority, but that's cool with me. I have felt Him in a way I could never fully describe with words.

I am a very sexual and very spiritual person, although many people would say that's an oxymoron.

I cannot deny what I have felt, what I have seen, the personal miracles of my own life; but I do know that there are people all over the world that "feel" their Gods in a spiritual way, that have witnessed "miracles" and believe in their religion because of these things.

I will make a statement that many would say contradicts Christianity: I believe that there is a God and that anyone truly seeking God will find Him/Her, I believe that only way for ME to reach God is through Jesus Christ, however I also believe that others may reach God through other means.

Am I correct, I don't know, but I do know I will follow the inner feelings that I have and trust them as they have kept me safe for years and given me peace at my darkest hours.

Without my belief in Jesus I can guarantee I would have taken my own life a long time ago, if that's the only purpose He serves, than it is a worthwhile one, IMO.

You seriously don't think dinosaurs exist? What's up with that?

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Yes you can get off on the same sexual experience for 24 full hours!!!!!

ipollux

As for did he once exist, perhaps, but I have no way to know for sure and feel like it doesn't really matter.

Meaning, they probably did, but it doesn't really matter to me. In other words, as far as Jesus or the Dinosaurs ever existing, I don't care.

Milkyway

ipollux:

I see, I miss read.

Yeah, I don't think dinosaurs matter much to me either or at all actually, except that you have to learn about them in school, but I digress.

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Yes you can get off on the same sexual experience for 24 full hours!!!!!

Grasshopper Green

This pretty much sums it up for me. I believe he existed and was probably smarter than the average bear. I don't believe in the immaculate conception, the resurrection, or the turning water into wine stuff.

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"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Formerly Medusa

Sun Tzu

To me the Bible has a much historical truth as the Odyessy written by Homer.

Jesus = Santa Clause . . . IMO

The idea of God in general regardless of which religion has become dangerous and threatens humanity as a whole. Not from the idea of God itself, but the actions motivating perceived "truth".

**EDIT*** I had a video posted showing that was shot by a British film crew in Israel in 2006. While the video itself was extremely interesting; it had a website at the end of it. I did not check out the site in the numerous times I watched the video. I finally did check it out after posting it here. It turned out to be a white supremist / racial hate site. If anyone watched the video and took enough interest to follow to the site, I appologize. That does not represent my views or the point I was making in posting this example.

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

ipollux

God is dead, and no one cares. If there is a hell, I'll see you there.

Milkyway

I see your Heresy by Nine Inch Nails

and raise you Closer By Nine Inch Nails

"I wanna f**k you like an animal
My whole existence is flawed
You get me closer to God"

That happens to be one of my favorite songs actually!

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Yes you can get off on the same sexual experience for 24 full hours!!!!!

jorgelito

Yes Jesus is very real.

Thank you.

RetroGunslinger

Wow, Sun Tzu, that video really speaks volumes about how the belief in God (in this case represented by Jesus) can take on numerous, sometimes horrendous faces. Knowing there are people out there like that, be them drunk or not, is really quite frightening and completely ruins any points using the "X population believes in Jesus" argument.

Not that it proves anything about the existence of Christ, just commenting.

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It's a rare pleasure in this world to get your mind fucked. Usually it's just foreplay.

M.B. Keene

ottopilot

I once followed way of the gourd, but now I believe the shoe is the righteous path to salvation.

The scriptures are clear:

"He has given us... his shoe! The shoe is the sign. Let us follow His example. Let us, like Him, hold up one shoe and let the other be upon our foot, for this is His sign, that all who follow Him shall do likewise. The shoe is a sign that we must gather shoes together in abundance.

Let us gather shoes together! It is a sign that, like Him, we must think not of the things of the body, but of the face and head!

Give me your shoe! Hold up the sandal, as He has commanded us! Take the shoes and follow Him!"

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"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Poppinjay

Not believing a deity exists makes absolutely no difference to the deity. The idea of a deity is something that does NOT exist, at least in any we can understand.

It's kind of like asking if karma exists.

Or the old joke about religion.

One man asks the other if wants to go to a Sunday service.

The other says, "I don't believe in the church's doctrines".

The first man says, "oh, I've actually SEEN them, I can assure you, they do exist."

Do you believe in homosexual marriage? It's happening in California, so you would be wrong if you didn't.

Do you believe in get quick rich schemes? They exist every day in your e-mail inbox.

Do you believe in corporal punishment? Even some public schools still practice it.

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Bill O'Rights

Not so sure about that one.

Corporal punishment may be very much akin to Jesus Christ.
Both existed...at one time...but not any longer.

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Poppinjay

Come to the deep south. Misbehave.

Whappity whap.

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

RetroGunslinger

Seconded.

__________________
It's a rare pleasure in this world to get your mind fucked. Usually it's just foreplay.

M.B. Keene

ipollux

That's awesome that out of nowhere a coalition of believers voted. Praise god! Hallelujah!

</sarcasm>

Poppinjay

ipollux, don't be sarcastic about believers. I believe, I have, and I have one of them high falootin private college edumacations.

This belief is not at odds with TFP. Halx buit a great community at absolute odds to what I think. Tecoyah and Charlatan and so many others offer such great direction and help at this site that I'd be a fool to dis them. They're great.

What does that have to do with me? Nothing. I think I have some ideas worth expressing, but I'm not the omnipresent force here. Am I happy here? You betcha. Am I responsible for management? No.

Who built your neighborhood?

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

ipollux

Honest apologies. I realize opinions can be expressed without using condescending sarcasm--sometimes I get carried away.

MSD

I don't believe in things. There's what's true, what's false, what we don't know yet, and what we can't know. I'm not concerned with the last category because belief takes up valuable time and brain power that can be dedicated to facts.

Evidence that I've seen points to a man who is remembered and referred to as "Jesus" in modern English having existed around two thousand years ago, but not much verifiable beyond that. I doubt that anything verifiable will come up to change what I think, and I doubt that evidence or lack thereof will change the mind of people who concern themselves with belief.

RonRyan85

Sure Jesus lived,died and came back to life 3 days later...just like the Bible predicted he would do it.
Being the Son of God ,he had the power and God had a plan for all of Mankind to live forever in his
heaven IF we believed in JESUS and GOD. Sounds like I believe the HOLY BIBLE doesn't it? There
are too many things in the Bible that are true NOT to believe it. (Another thing: What if I am right
and non-believers are WRONG ? )

roachboy

why aren't there "both" or "neither" options in the poll?

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

The_Jazz

Ummm, Ron, no offense intended at all, but the Bible wasn't written when Jesus died. The Old Testament was, but not one single word of the New Testament was.

And if you're right and non-believers are wrong, Heaven's going to be a comparatively empty place, what with all the Hundi's, Bhuddists and whatnot that have ever lived and died. Not to mention the Mormons.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

ipollux

If the Bible is right, I think Jesus is shady. For more information on why, read my blog. But in short, it's because that means he's sending good, innocent people who've never been exposed to him or have, but like all of us have no proof of his existence, to suffer for an eternity.

So, Ron, when you say stuff like what if you're right and non-believers are wrong, you make it sound like you're playing it safe. As if just in case it's true, you're going to play along. Well, something like that's not going to control how I live my life.

Sun Tzu

I will enthusiastically state, I do my very best not judge others or their beliefs. The obvious motivation for this being the many faults I carry sober me of doing so. Even in debates where I am totally the opposite in beliefs, I strive to understand why other side sees they way they do. When it comes to this topic, I will admittingly confess that minor frustration sets in. Not enough to ever down someone for their spiritual beliefs, but to suggest research. I am a former Christian that saw atheists as lost souls; shaking my head with a “if they only knew” attitude. I saw advice to research history outside the Bible as either a waste of time or in some cases the devil trying to influence me. After all what more did I need other than the Bible. After years of research applying critical thought and several visits to Israel with an archeologist; I began to fully understand a diiferent acceptance. When the interest of science and quantum physics took hold, it was the last push to where I am today.

That is, I don’t know what God is. There is currently nothing other than the Bible that suggests (or Koran) that the reality we now know, (the laws of physics and other displines of science) will someday cascade to a permanent supernatural exsistence when the Mesiah returns in a light of heavenly glory. There is nothing to suggest that humanity deserves to keep this planet if it doesn’t use the evolved tool it has- the brain to stop blaming its shortcomings on a central unseen force that instigates the motivation of what this civilization (in its many facets) has determined as being “evil”. I don’t know what god is, but when I look at the universe in its majestic span of time- I cant help but think that whatever, if there is a supreme creator of something of this magnitude, its very arrogant to think that there is anything “we” simple carbon based beings on this tiny speck of dust could do anything that would offend it.


There is plenty that offends us though. Think about what one single thing has caused more wars than anything else in history.
Whether you do or don’t, I will still suggest that you research how the Bible was written. If you do, also keep in mind these were men; human beings writing from stories and accounts passed down. Not from words burnt into rock of metal from a scientifically unknown source left as an enigma, but writings just like mythology. While if you ever decide to venture down this path; finding your own sources is the best here are examples:

Christian Texts

Dating Early Christian Gospels

from jesus to christ: the first christians: from hebrew bible to christian bible

Bibliography of some of the Bible research resources used by BibleTexts


Christianity, The Bible

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Herk

That's string betting.

I don't think he ever did. There are very few historical records that mention his name as a person at all, and those that do are considered very questionable.

I will say though, that the existence of Jesus Christ is probably one of the least questionable thing Christians believe.

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-Blind faith runs into things!-

RonRyan85

Yes, but all the things about his birth,death and resurrection were written in
the OLD Testament hundreds of years before Jesus was born. That's what I
was writing about.

Atreides88

It's because there is no evidence to support the resurrection and the life everlasting, but that's where faith comes in. Christians take it on as a matter of faith, nothing more nothing less. Jesus himself said that there is no way we can understand it or understand God's plans, as we are mere mortals and if we could understand it all, it would make God and Jesus rather unnecessary.

Why don't you think that we, a bunch of vulgar and hate-filled creatures, could offend a supreme diety with what we do everyday? War, hate, genocide, murder, theft, adultery, dishonesty, those would sure offend me.

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"There is no need to suppose that human beings differ very much one from another: but it is true that the ones who come out on top are the ones who have been trained in the hardest school." -- Thucydides

Sun Tzu

A couple of questions: are you of the belief that humans are born "tainted with sin", or do you think that new born babies are truly innocent?







Would you find it more an aspect of faith than a calculated statisic that there is other intellegent life in the vastness of the known universe (not even our own Milky Way, but the whole)


Ive been to the garden tomb several times, the only physical anomoly I found was a piece of a metal rod within the rock that used to hold the stone door in place. It had been sheared. The tour guides did not mention for some reason. While some people would see that as something left by an angel that came down and flung the gate open, I see it as a metal rod that used to be there. Other than that; there is nothing else. The faith of millions is based on a writing that was written by MEN who say they were inspired by God, and then edited several times after that.

Athanasius of Alexandria and men (and I do mean men- women were not part of this editing process) like him have dictated what millions place their faith in.

Book of Adam and Eve, Book of Jubilees, Book of Enoch, Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Proto-Gospel of James, Gnostic Scriptures of Nag Hammadi, Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Nicodemus, Apocalypse of Peter, so on and so on . . . what are your thoughts on them? Have you ever read them, any of them?

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Atreides88

My answers in bold.

__________________
"There is no need to suppose that human beings differ very much one from another: but it is true that the ones who come out on top are the ones who have been trained in the hardest school." -- Thucydides

Sun Tzu

Newborn babies . . . sinners. . . Even when I was a devoted Christian, the question of why a loving God would allow babies to be born with deformities and suffering was always present. The answers: it is God’s will, or who are we to question the choices of God never set with me. The way I looked at is if God gave us such a developed brain to think and apply logic then it should only be natural to be inquisitive. But such a process brings the reader straight back to the first story- why we are looked upon as “sinners” in the first place- because of knowledge. Therefore the quest for knowledge is what dammed us all in the first place, right? Control. Take elements such as logic, reason, and “the bible tells me so and set them aside; can you really look at the babies below or any baby for that matter and in your heart really believe they are sinners? Beings that have absolutely no experience in life, have not done anything to anyone, and have only taken their first breaths of life.




For me it is not even a faith issue. The size of the universe we can visually see is so immense that IMO other life is a certainty. The universe is also a chaotic place. We see gamma bursts happening every night. If one of those happened anywhere near our solar system it would destroy all the life on this planet. Do you think a gamma burst that takes out a civilization is evil? Or is it how chaos ran its course?

At least we can be comforted that God will never destroy the life on Earth by WATER again. Although no promise is ever made about fire breathing harpies raining down upon is. Although I don’t think people living in Indonesia, Sri Lanka, India, and Thailand gave much faith to that promise. I wonder how many Christians spent Christmas in that part of the world in 2004.



Napoleon died and is longer here, Henry the VIII died and is longer among us, Einstein died and isn’t around anymore. I have no doubt they existed, neither is there controversy as to whether or not they walked the Earth. You obviously didn’t watch the third clip so Ill post it again. While I disagree with some of the writings of Fleming; he presents honest and fair questions. You didn’t watch the third clip perhaps you can provide some insight to what is being asked here.




I said edited. The literary work people read in the present is the result of generations of stories and accounts of gospels that have been edited, chopped, deleted according to what they saw as being important. Let’s assume the Bible had more to it than Homer’s Odyssey; it seems in the course of all of the decision making to create philosophies people are going to live by, no one was paying attention to Revelation 22:18. Followers of Joseph Smith’s writings better hope John was only talking about his project and not the whole collection huh?



If you value the Bible especially the New Testament, then it is a safe bet you value what you perceive as the preaching’s of Jesus Christ. Then you should find great importance in the Apocryphon. The reason you haven’t read them is because the editors that were doing the picking and choosing didn’t want you to read them. They were lost for a very long time for a reason. But they’re here now. The issue is they have as much foundation for being the philosophies of Yeshua as the edited works known as the New Testament. The real problem is if you do read them you are going to find the message differs from what is taught from King James.



Then the Jews have it worse over everyone huh? This is where the Church really did an effective number on millions. Athanasius and others like him have provided the dictations under which God’s influence will reign. The Apocalypse of Peter states everyone will be saved. Everyone. This kind of philosophy would drastically change the way people would have lived their lives. The concept of being forgiven and saved even if you go to hell for a few hundred years would have meant the sinful living did not carry a permanent sentence with it. Hell is eventually going to be empty according to this Gospel. Such information would have taken control away from the early church. What does being saved really mean anyway?




Kind of like the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland? The Crusades? The Inquisition? I agree that it is an important message: Lau Tzu was saying it 600 years before the speculated time Yeshua was even born, and he wasn’t even doing miracles.

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

speshul-k

I'm with you on this one.
It comes down to the while factual existence of a man.
Verses the supernatural existence of a higher being.