opentocomments

A friend of mine just watched this movie and started to have anxiety attacks and hasn't slept in 3 days. Do i just lie to them and tell them its all bullshit when I think truth comes from seeing as many points of view as possible and interpreting yourself. I believe truth stems from your own conclusions so I almost feel obligated to let her ride all this mental instability out but I also feel obligated to return my friend to a normal state of mind. If I was to denouse this movie how do i begin, All you Zeitgeist Haters out there lets hear some of our ideas on why its all bullshit, (Besides what the media says and because it goes against what we're told hundreds of times a day) Show me some solid flaws in the logic and I'll try to forward those to my friend and restore her sanity.

__________________
How do we know that the sky is not green and we are all color-blind?

Ace_O_Spades

__________________
Feh.

Willravel

Actually, Judaism/Christianity/Islam did of course borrow from older myths. Even theologians admit that.

Sun Tzu

What part exactly? The 1st (religion), 2nd (WTC), 3rd (Federal Reserve, etc) or all three?

The issue I have seen and encountered a lot is people having problems with the first part. Even if they believe the whole government corruption thing, they are worshipping Christians, so its hard to discuss anything beyond that with them.

The problem I always have when debating them is they always use the Bible to defend itself. The primary thing I ask them to do is set aside what is mentioned in this film initially. Research an unbiased history if the Bible and its process of how it became what it is today. Who's hands it went through at a time when only a few could read and write, who they were, what and how they edited. I am a former Christian, I have traveled and seen to what I thought was the birthplace of Jesus, his tomb, and other sites of interest.

After years of extensive research both history from various sources and general interest in quantum physics, the "holy house of cards" fell apart. I truly do see it (at least in a general sense as the film puts it) about a means of control. Infact, beyond that when I see a large portion of actions being played out today; its almost as the grand prophecy (the generally accepted version of it) is going to be fulfilled one way or the other. It really doesn’t seem to matter if the Bible had as much reality to it as The Odyssey written by Homer- because the powers that be are going to make it happen.

I also came to the realization that without having a spiritual belief that a Supreme Being is going to come and wipe the mess humanity has created clean, and make all the bad things go away; a lot of people would have anxiety. God answers the questions we don’t know (what was before singularity), having a devil takes accountability away and lets people know that there is going to be a happy ending through all this madness. Its not a pleasant mindset to think that our journey would possibly end when we die. Even worse that people could act in any greedy way they chose without suffering any consequences.

I don’t consider myself an atheist, but more of agnostic. I don’t think science has the answer for everything. When I see stars being born in the Eagle Nebula from nothing, I understand why the brightest minds have never cracked what was here before it all began, how, and why. I don’t think they ever will. That is God to me. Given the size the known universe that we can see visually (what we see with Hubble) I cant help but think how arrogant it is of humanity to think that there is anything that us simple carbon based organisms could do that would offend a supreme creator (if there is one). We would honor a grand creator by using the tools we were born with, clean up our own act, stop warring in the name of my God is bigger than your God, and evolve socially as fast we are technically.

I was really pissed off when I was told there was no Santa Clause. I was even more pissed when I researched it and found it to be reasonably true. I'm certainly not any happier knowing that Santa doesn’t exist.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

opentocomments

My friend is in a psych ward right now, I showed her that movie. I feel like a total shit bag and can't fall asleep at 3-30am when i have work at 8am. I don't even really know what happened but i was trying to get a hold of her all night and eventually found out her dad checked her into a psych ward. That movie is fucked up. It teaches you keep your nose down and get yours before somebody else does.

__________________
How do we know that the sky is not green and we are all color-blind?

Sun Tzu

How did you interpret that? I'm sorry to hear about your friend. Are you certain it was the movie and not something else going on? Perhaps depression already there and the movie maybe accented it. I dont see it any more depressing than turning on the news on any given day.

Without agreeing or disagreeing with this movie, speaking hypothetically: are you one that would take the red pill or the blue?

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Shauk

sounds like your friend has issues. Not saying that to be rude but this forum is full of people who watched the movie and we're not in a psych ward.

I don't think you can blame the movie though.

by the way, your signature from fight club, it's another anti establishment movie in a way. Now THAT guy was crazy

opentocomments

I'm the type of person who wants to see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

But my friend is under alot of stress too from school and work and expecially from her mother (she has mommy issues) but the movie was part of the catalyst it wasn't the only factor.

__________________
How do we know that the sky is not green and we are all color-blind?

Jinn

I don't believe you at all.

Perhaps you could try not lying the next time you want to inspire discussion.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

opentocomments

believe what you want, but my friend watched that movie and ended up in a psych ward 4 days later. I'm almost positive it was some kind of a factor. I watched the movie with her and one of our other friends watched it and neither of us are in a psych ward. I know dozens of my friends who have seen it and not ended up in a psych ward but that doesn't detract from the fact that it was part of the catalyst that sent my friend into the hospital. I also do not appreciate you insinuating that i'm a liar, its unfair and without insight. So if you feel the need make unfounded accusations do it in a different forum becuase i like this one.

__________________
How do we know that the sky is not green and we are all color-blind?

silent_jay

..............

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Baraka_Guru

It doesn't take much land oneself in the psych ward. Why is this so hard to believe? Not that it matters much to the wider public.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

blahblah454

There is some good discussion of this movie, and everything else you ever wanted to know about conspiracies at Above Top Secret.

tisonlyi

Zeitgeist and it's like contain some interesting ideas, but its real value is in doing today what Bill Hicks did for a small segment of the UK population (*waves*) and a tiny segment of the US population 15 years ago.

It IS ok to ask "WHY?" and keep asking it until you get an answer. A real answer.

There is a reason why our language describes those who become engaged in politics or activism as undergoing an "awakening". You can work that out for yourself.

I was going to go through a whole list of stuff that troubles me about the world and what we can do about it, but I don't think anyone really wants to hear about that.

What I will do is put up a load of link to other videos that discuss the same ideas about the current state of the world and how we got here, and recommend that anyone interested in shaking themselves out of their slumber reads.

If only one author: George Orwell. Only one book? No. Two. 1984 and Animal Farm. Multiple times.

Adam Curtis Documentaries:

The Century Of The Self:





The Trap:



Part 3 - We will force you to be free

Noam Chomsky:

Manufacturing Consent

Lots of Chomsky videos, I don't think you can ever call the man less than interesting

Jon Ronson Documentaries (Semi-humorous in origin, but not always how it works out):


Secret Rulers Of The World - David Icke, The Lizards and The Jews

The Crazy Rulers Of The World - The Men Who Stare At Goats - First of 3, you can follow them through...

Others:

Why We Fight


The Revolution Will Not Be Televised - Documentary surrounding the failed coup in Venezuela a few years ago.

And of course, all this is just a start - but a good one in my opinion.

DISCLAIMER: Believe nothing, even if I tell it to you, unless it meets with your own good common sense and experience. - Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha)

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Willravel

Whoa! That's a great list of links! Thanks!

tisonlyi

ooh ooh ooh, don't forget The Power of Nightmares - part 1, you can follow them through on google video.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

opentocomments

and the book Farenheit 451

__________________
How do we know that the sky is not green and we are all color-blind?

Manuel Hong

I hope you don't mind, but I HAD TO lift that quote for my signature!!!

Thanks for the links, I'll get right on them.

__________________
Believe nothing, even if I tell it to you, unless it meets with your own good common sense and experience. - Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha)

Ustwo

Some things, and 'your own good common sense' clash from time to time.

The problem with using ones own good common sense is quite a few people don't have any.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

silent_jay

Everyone has common sense, quite a few just choose not to use it. Or some say that those who don't believe what they believe have no common sense because their beliefs clash.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Manuel Hong

Ustwo, I'm am dreadfully sorry that your capacity to believe in magic has been amputated. You are so left-brained, your head must tilt awkwardly. Perhaps that is what attracted you to the Tilted Forum Project!!!
I am a fairly logical woman, but I find life to be much more fun and fulfilling when I let go of the narrow-minded view of the world. In a way, it allows me to experience the joy and freedom I had when I was a child.
I wish the same for you. Unclamp that sphinctor, Sweetie!!

__________________
Believe nothing, even if I tell it to you, unless it meets with your own good common sense and experience. - Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha)

tisonlyi

Ustwo: I would suggest that this is where "experience" comes into play... but if you claim that both your experience and common sense are adulterated to the point of being unable to trust either - experience including your life history, education, beliefs, etc, I won't argue. How could I?

RE: Icke.

I do not believe that there are races of shape shifting lizards who perform blood rituals ruling the planet. If you watched that program, you'd see its point is a long way from pushing this view of the world.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Ustwo

I am quite happy to be "left brained" its served me quite well in life and keeps me from being suckered easily.

There is a difference between experiencing the joy of a child and being childish. If you were to meet me personally you would never connect your vision of me from TFP with the 'real' me. I won't get into specifics just because in some ways I'm so uninhibited it would easily identify me and I enjoy being able to speak freely here.

But that doesn't mean I have to think someone who thinks he got a message from the spirit world is anything besides a egotistical loony for thinking outside forces guided him to play soccer so he could become the chosen one.

There is plenty of real magic out there in life, and it doesn't require turning off your logic pathways to enjoy it.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

aberkok

I really like this. This is what I try and convince people of all the time. It's my turn now to say... I agree with Ustwo.

__________________
!check out my new blog! http://arkanamusic.wordpress.com

Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

Willravel

Are you Robin Williams? Be honest.

Manuel Hong

No! Steve Martin!!!
He's a Wild and Crazy Guy!!!!!

__________________
Believe nothing, even if I tell it to you, unless it meets with your own good common sense and experience. - Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha)

MSD

You're not a true TFP member until you look at yourself and say, "What the fuck? I just agreed with Ustwo." If you usually side with him, then it's when you agree with willravel.

Baraka_Guru

I think the CBC put it best.

"Zeitgeist would be great, if it weren't bullshit!"

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

tisonlyi

Most of it is less than likely, to be kind... but it's a different perspective, even if untrue, and shaking people into questioning the verities that surround them is always a good thing.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Manuel Hong

*puts visor back over eyes, goes shopping to feel better*

__________________
Believe nothing, even if I tell it to you, unless it meets with your own good common sense and experience. - Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha)

Jenna

Zeitgeist doesn't depress me, or make me angry, or make me feel any smaller. I have already come to the realization that I'm a small, insignificant object in the universe. And I was a conspiracy theorist before I saw Zeitgeist.

For some reason, it empowers me. Opening my mind to new information towards the truth, and not authority, inspires me. I know my existence won't change this universe completely. But I know that if I can look for the truth and see it being spread, it gives me hope.

Ustwo

Questioning is good.

Lying is bad.

When you look at the number of people who buy this stuff hook line and sinker its not longer about questioning and searches for the truth, its just simple propaganda.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

MSD

For a counter-argument, I won't bother to restate it, you can simply read it here.
http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/

blahblah454

I just read a huge chunk of several of his pages, including some 9/11 stuff. He does a worse job explaining things than the conspiracy people do. His 9/11 stuff just kinda sounded like a rant.

tisonlyi

The problem comes when you believe, and I put myself in this category, that you are surrounded by media that are, to be kind to them, utterly incompetent when it comes to portraying reality to the masses. Really, I'm with Chomsky on this... they're unconscious agents of population control, for the most part.

When you have a media you cannot trust, then maybe it takes wild, inaccurate propaganda to shake 'normal' people into... Maybe it takes more than that.

I lost a Nebraskan liberal arts major last night... no great loss.

maybe though... maybe he was abducted by international freemasonry!

Edit/Update: Turns out he just made his way directly from one bar to a train and a 4 hour journey to another city. Rum is not his drink.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

MuadDib

As a former Nebraska liberal arts major, I blame our natural curiosity & explorer's spirit. The rum just helps coax that out.

__________________
"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751

RetroGunslinger

I think Zeitgeist is both good and bad. On one hand, it forces the viewer to stop and think about the truth of things. Unfortunately, and on the other hand, most people will take it for its word, and not do anymore research. Luckily, I've found that enough of Zeitgeist is grounded in truth that it makes for a good starting point for the encouragement of free thought and, given that the person has some amount of common sense, it should propel them into actual enlightenment. I suppose what I'm getting at is that, speaking from an almost militant Atheist point of view, it makes for a quick solution to the problem of religious nutjob friends.

It's sort of like an upper that needs a downer to balance it out. If you don't give the friend a downer (which, sadly, probably means burdening their minds with text) after the upper, then it's going to be too much and they'll turn into a conspiracy theory nutjob, which would suck.

Having said that, I have to at least halfway agree with Ustwo. It would be much better if the video were to only give truths. I'm not entirely sure why, but it seems no side is completely truthful, as they are a lot like opposing political parties, which of course demand propaganda. Further, while there are sects of each "party" that do for the most part give truthful accounts, they are just not exciting enough to be widely acknowledged by the opponents.

For example, for my party, the Atheists, we have the fantastic spokesmen Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and the more mean-spirited Christopher Hitchens. Now, if you've ever attempted to read their material, it's not necessarily the most exciting prose out there (specifically the work of Dennett), and when it is exciting (Hitchens) it just comes off as rude and volatile. As such, while we may think their opinions are the best of the best, our opponents will call them out as boring nonsense and angry rants. So, something has to act as quick convergence before deploying the much more truthful, less radical works to even them out.

I'm sure this sounds completely robotic or devious or whatever, but that's how I see it as working. It's all a very convoluted game.

__________________
It's a rare pleasure in this world to get your mind fucked. Usually it's just foreplay.

M.B. Keene

Ustwo

I've found that enough of Zeitgeist is grounded in truth that it makes for a good starting point for the encouragement of free thought and, given that the person has some amount of common sense, it should propel them into actual enlightenment.

But this is what makes it propaganda of the classic kind. A lie surrounded by truth. If everything was a lie it would be easily shot down, but instead give enough truth that they buy the lie.

For example, for my party, the Atheists, we have the fantastic spokesmen Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and the more mean-spirited Christopher Hitchens. Now, if you've ever attempted to read their material, it's not necessarily the most exciting prose out there (specifically the work of Dennett), and when it is exciting (Hitchens) it just comes off as rude and volatile. As such, while we may think their opinions are the best of the best, our opponents will call them out as boring nonsense and angry rants. So, something has to act as quick convergence before deploying the much more truthful, less radical works to even them out.

I've been an atheist long before it was cool, and the only atheists you heard about was that wacky American Atheists League or whatever they were called. You are right that the style of many of the vocal atheists is a turn off for those who don't already have atheist leanings, but thats a different issue from something like the Zeitgeist. You won't 'convert' anyone to atheism by making them look stupid, but it doesn't make the message any less true, its just done in a confrontational way that conflicts with peoples egos. On the other hand the Zeitgeist tries to guide you to erroneous conclusions, and in my opinion assumes you are gullible enough to buy it all.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

RetroGunslinger

I'd just like to point out real quick that I don't like Zeitgeist. Having said that, I still can't help but think that, as a last possible resort (which I confess makes this sound more important than it is) it works. I say this out of experience rather than personal philosophy or the like. Sure, I have to correct my friends who see the film after they've resigned to that particular state of mind, but the point still gets through--and they acknowledge this--that they need to question more than they used to, and that (and this to me is the most important part to me) Christianity and the other religions out there just don't work. Does this make Zeitgeist a good thing? No, but I don't think it hurts as much as it helps.

Also, to go off on a brief tangent, was that "atheist long before it was cool" bit a back-handed comment? I'm just curious, because pulling the age card seems like a dip in your otherwise intelligent post.

EDIT: Actually, never mind. I kind of misunderstood the comment.

__________________
It's a rare pleasure in this world to get your mind fucked. Usually it's just foreplay.

M.B. Keene

opentocomments

three questions for you Ustwo.
1. Have you read the 9/11 commision report
2. If yes to 1, Did you notice this frequents and often massive missing peices of their story?
3. This doesn't make you wonder what our government is hiding?

__________________
How do we know that the sky is not green and we are all color-blind?