KWSN

before making statements like this, read posts like the one directly above yours.

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boom29

In the quote that you quoted me, I was actually referring to the ability to rap/rhyme. I'm not trying to argue that people should like rap, rather what I meant to point out that being able to rhyme/rap does take skill. I understand that people have different musical preferences, and accordingly not everyone is going to like the same thing.

Polyphobic

Oops.
Sorry, for the misunderstanding.
I do understand that it does take some type of skill to rap/rhyme. But to be honest, I don't understand why it is considered much of a skill when compared to learning an instrument. Or compared to artists that write all parts of their music (guitar, base, drums, etc).

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Polyphobic

I doubt that you are a moron. I think your opinion (as well as mine) are coming across badly. I believe that this thread needed to change from an "i hate this" post to more of a debate between the merits of rap and the artists. As pointed out by several other members.

Incidentally, I usually don't post in a thread about hating something. I decided to go against my beliefs related to this and posted anyway. Thus, ignoring the little voice in my head that said this was a bad idea. Hopefully, we can keep this thread a decent one.
Also, I apologize if any of my posts offended anyone.

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<--The great infidel-->

Derwood

I have reaffirmed my faith in rap upon hearing the new Beastie Boys single.

Hellz yea!

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"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

sprocket

Have you heard a true hip hop artist freestyle? Trust me, it takes fucking talent. Period. When you see someone belt out lyrics faster than most normal people can construct a sentence over a beat they havnt heard and make it sound like they were written and memorized its pretty fucking amazing. I think that measures up with the talent it takes to play an instrument.

Just like every genre, hip-hop has its good stuff. Unfortunately, unless you dig a little deeper all you see are P-diddy and 50 cent and friends on MTV. Those guys are like the N-Sync of rap.

And to the starter of this thread: Go try and make your own beats. Load up some music program like Reason or Pro Tools and see how well you do. Trust me... its not nearly as easy as you think. Of course after trying, you might have a new appreciation for the beats in alot of hip-hop.. could shatter your worldview.. so mabye dont try it.

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begforme2

Just add Blackstar, Soul Position, Aesop Rock and then you're good.

cockmonger

im starting to hate modern rock...i dont think i can name a good original band that started after 1998...

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jhk451

BlackStar = one of top5 greatest hip hop albums ever released.
Good call on Soul Position. Hot beats and decent rhymes.

add:
7L and Esoteric

Immortal Technique (if you want to hear the most chilling song of all time, listen to "dance with the devil". PM me after you listen to it and give me your thoughts on the story-telling abilities of the guy)

Big L

Talib Kweli

Nas

Brother Ali

roachboy

ah yes hip hop....even though this thread seems pretty much played out...i got interested in hip hop through bomb squad-type production, but what really did it for me from the start was eric b and rakim and dj premier.

from my viewpoint, the finest single hip hop album to date is dr octagon. the mid-point in the transition from turntablist to pre=fabricated beats as the underpinning for--in this case--- delirious rhyming.

i still listen to some hip hop, but frankly what i focussed on early was the turntablists--i used to have arguments with friends in which i would try to convince them that some turntablists were like contemporary classical composers who were working over beats that tended to disguise how complex the sounds generated were. the results: danger mouse made jay-z almost interesting for me; x-ecutioners remain amazing; i would love to see the beat junkies if they are still around; most commercial hip hop seems tiresome----i think dj shadow summed up the problem with west-coast hip hop quite nicely on entroducing: "why hip hop sucks in 96"...the problem remains....some outkast singles float around in my brain for days after i hear them, but i cannot determine if that is a good thing or not.

as for folk who hate the genre--the beat structures are quite simple--but often the drop are less so (the quality of the drop, for example)--the straight beats trick people into thinking that everything is the same--which is wrong---if you want to check out lyrical possibilities, i would suggest rakim's "in the ghetto" off let the rhythm hit em. wastes stuff like 2-pac.

and try to freestyle. i play what i guess you would call experimental stuff--not particularly beat oriented--the group has some very sophisticated players from a variety of genres in it--it is beyond fun when someone freestyles with us---seriously, it is an amazing thing to be around, and a skill that requires a huge amount of work. i do sometimes wish that hip hop would get away from reliance on rhymes, however--there is nearly a century of text/poetry that has managed it.

on the other hand, my brother is a bluegrass musician. i understand the skill required to play that stuff, but would rather listen to machinery run than to bluegrass. strange thing is that i can see how that music functions, but my brother and most of his comrades cannot see how what i do operates. sometimes you have to stretch your head, to explore music that you do not a priori like, just to understand other ways of thinking --- music is a form of thinking, not just in the way the words operate, but also (often more) in the way the sonic space is orgainized.

it is worth the effort to check out by hip hop by listening carefully to it, and not stand outside making clucking noises, saying this sucks this sucks.......of course after the experiments are carried out, you can still make clucking noises and say this sucks this sucks, but at least you will have pushed away from the comfortable for a little while.

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Skettios

I used to hate rap.

Then I opened my mind to it, and started listening to it.

It's the best thing happening right now, without a doubt. I've been into every kind of music, even country, which most people leave out. Hip-Hop and Rap are by far my favorites.

Try some more before you knock it, and if you still don't like it try some more. Huge amounts of people invest their lives in this art form, it should not be so easily thrown away.

Dismissing a whole genre of music seems pretty narrowminded to me. Although I've read a lot of the naysayers on this thread, very few of them seem to have actually listened to any of it.

I expect more from the TFP than this.

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Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

-=shikamaru=-

Some argue that rap died once it was recorded onto disc and tape.

See, rap is like jazz: it's really all about mojo. It's about how the MC, DJ, rappers, etc. work together SPONTANIOUSLY to lay good rhymes. Like a jazz group, they have to be constantly communicating their thoughts to each other, signalling whatever mix ups they are planning to throw into their rap, and also be able to adapt to each other. Rap started as completely free form, and was at its best when it was like that. Once rap got recorded, it lost its mojo. What was on record was not impulsive, spontanious, and unique. It might have had some of those qualities when rap was old school, but now even lots of underground rap is having trouble being creative, original, and authentic.

So P.Diddy, stop stealing other people's shit and suck my dick.

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ShaniFaye

I dislike Rap.....simply because every one I've ever been forced....and I mean forced as in riding in a friends car and thats all they listen to...going to clubs etc....to listen to makes me want to murder someone lol. Something about that style of music goes thru my ears and somewhere in my brain and triggers the desire to kill the person making me listen to it.

I understand lots of people love it...I wouldnt say its crap just because its not my taste. Hell I love bagpipe music and a lot of people disagree with me on that one. Heh, its usually the people riding in MY car......yes, there IS a reason I insist on being the one driving.

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The.Lunatic

Hey thats how I feel about punk music / emo / heartcore/ screamo you name it all that shit. But its not all bad so I wouldn't say that I straight up hate all punk.

I also feel that way about all the amazing bands we've got on the radio these days like nickleback and stained so amazin....

I like undeground rap these days, and even my friends who fucking hate rap like the stuff I listen too.

And i also love 80's rock.. 80's screwed up everything besides the actual music.



//edit

BTW right now i'm listening to immortal_technique-the_point_of_no_return-cms

Also check out Jedi Mind Tricks - violent by design - 17 - Genghis Khan Feat. Tragedy Khadafi

If you listen to those a few times and don't like those songs then i'll take you're hatred of a whole genre seriously

You coul'd probobally steal it if you want i think he's on death row and probobally wouldn't care.

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teethman

i love rap.

Mos Def
Talib Kweli
GangStarr
The Roots
Nas
Jurassic 5
Dilated Peoples
Kanye West
Beastie Boys
Can ox
Aesop Rock
Mr Lif
Outkast
Hierogliphics
Jay Z
Eminem
Canibus
El- P
Blackalicious
Atmosphere
Eyedea & Abilities
The Pharcyde
Wu Tang
Tupac
Cypress Hill
Brother Ali
Benefit
Binary Star

these are some of the artists ive been enjoying over the last couple of years. if anyone knows anything i'd like, let me know. i even like gunit 50 cent, but i understand that rap varies so much and its all different.

Mantus

Cant say I hate it rap. Just like every other musical genre there are the sellouts and the pretentious jackasses. In fact I would say that the current punk and emo scene has WAY more crap acts then hip-hop and rap ever had.

Some of the bands that take themselves seriously have great lyrics. The bass lines and percussion is often amazing on rap tracks – though often sampled.

My main problem with rap music is that it lacks harmony. The vocals are almost always in complete dissonance with the instrumental. So rap doesn’t sound like music to me. Rap is just a guy talking to some random tune. In music if you take the vocals from one song and try to sing them to a different melody it will sound like crap. In most rap one would not have to worry about this because the vocals were never meant to be in harmony with the melody in the first place.

Not all rap is guilty of this. There are quite a few very well produced and harmonious rap tunes. When you add harmony to a rap song - assuming the lyrics and instrumental is well done – it sounds very good and powerful. One of my favorite tunes “Bombs Over Baghdad” by Outcast is a great example of this.

wrongfullyaccuzd

At first I was shocked that there was only one post that substantially mentioned Eminem, but now I realized that I shouldn't be shocked at all. The rap haters can't mention Eminem as a reason why rap is bad. Sure I may have just opened the gates for the people who want to be spiteful, but his mention only in a positive light thus far says a lot about him and his talent.

Skettios

Try some Kanye West bro. You'll love it.

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Frederich Nietzsche

jester

I'm not a fan of the most generic re-hashed crap rap, but I loved N.W.A. and Dre's solo stuff in the early 90's. He was a great producer.

"Nuthin' But A G Thang" is probably on the top 100 songs of all time list.

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Mantus

No Kanye West dosnt have any harmony.

They got absolutely great melodies. But the rap just drones over top of it like it would over any other melodies. They produce such great tunes and dont even bother to sing the lyrics so they would mesh with the music.

Skettios

Maybe the rap itself doesn't have a lot of harmonies, I mean, he's rapping not singing, but you can't say that Kanye's songs aren't chock full of harmonies, they're in every song.

You want rap harmony? Try Bone Thugs, Jurassic 5 or even Usher.

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Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

braindamage351

Rap is just like poetry. It's stupid, but no one will admit it. Even if it's good, it's still rap. It's basically impossible for any rap/hip hop song to be good without someone singing the chorus.

Mantus

It's true. Rap is poetry. I suppose if a rap song has harmony then it wont be rap at all. I just can't get used to that kind of lyrical delivery though. My problem is that I can only enjoy a rap song on a musical or a lyrical level, never both because the two don’t mesh. It's just a listening preference I have that’s all.

K-Wise

See I can't help but be offended just a little bit by posts like this being an emcee myself and all. I'd like to think I write very well, but, yer entitled to your opinion it's cool. I know hip-hop isn't for everyone.

Asta!!

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unoaman

I'm not knocking it, or belittling those involved in it...I just flat out don't like the shit. They probably don't like George Michael, or Billy Joel...I'm not telling THEM to try it some more. If enough people like any artist, and their work, the money will be spent, the profits realized, and everybody will be happy.

MillerTime

If you've really heard underground like you've said you have, you would know that that statement is not true. Immortal Technique raps about politics, conditions, etc. His song "Dance With the Devil" is in my opinion the best song of all time. There are also rappers like Sage Francis and Aesop Rock who right beautiful poetry.

K-Wise

I'll be back tommorow or later on tonight and I'll post some of my lyrics up for you. If you think mine are garbage then you really just don't like hip-hop at all.

Asta!!

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It ain't goodbye, it's see ya later! I'll miss you guys! - Asta!!

trickyy

i just listened to delton 3030 for the first time in a year or so

thats some great stuff

jhk451

If you're still knocking the rap and hiphop that you hear on the radio and making harsh generalizations that blanket over the rest of the genre, then all you're doing is making an uneducated statement.

to say that ALL rap is stupid and materialistic and that ALL rappers are obsessed with self-image and boasting about bitches and riches is just stupid. if you took the time to delve a little deeper than the radio by maybe asking on TFP for a little advice on good hip hop, you won't have the same impression on it.

artists like brother ali are the opposite of most hip hop on the radio. he doesn't brag about how good he looks (he's an overweight albino guy that sweats a lot and is really hairy). he raps about self-esteem in fair amounts and other happy topics. it's feel-good music.

to hear some educated (or conspiracy-laden, however you want to interpret it) music, listen to immortal technique. he raps about the bush administration, the war, 9/11, and basically all the things he believes is wrong with the country while spitting in amazing rhythm and rhyme.

rap with one, well-connected idea/story? here are a couple songs to name a few:

1) 7L and esoteric - word association --- a comedic dialogue between a psychiatrist and his patient, going back and forth playing word association.

2) 7L and esoteric - Terrorist's Cell --- a chilling first-hand narrative in the eyes of a 9/11 plane hijacker.

3) blackalicious - deception --- a catchy, well-written, rhythmic story about the dangers of fame and ego inflation.

4) immortal technique - dance with the devil --- by far the best story-rap song of all time. even if you don't like rap, you can't NOT appreciate the lyrical skill and story telling ability of this man. i thought about this song for weeks after i heard it. a perfect example of how a simple beat can convey just as much of the song as the words.

5) slick rick - children's story --- famous old school song. slick rick was known as the original rap story-teller.

listen to at least 2 of those songs, and i'm sure you'll realize that there's more to rap then big-screen tv's, blunts, 40s, bitches, rims, tv's in the head rests, gettin' crunk, threesomes, foursomes, moresomes, going platinum, shoothing people/getting shot, gangs, money, jewelry, macked out cars, and any other ridiculous shit p.diddy/ja rule/lil jon have to "rap" about.


while i have just realized that all of this writing will have been done in vain because anti-rap kids will continue to stay anti-rap out of sheer principle/stubborness, i stand by my words and will continue to try to inform people of the breadth of hip hop.

peace.

Amnesia620

Atmosphere. Best, clearest rapper out there.

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Amnesia620

Also, the song I recommend listening to first is...
"Always Coming Back Home To You" (by Atmosphere).

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For example, I find that a lot of college girls are barbie doll carbon copies with few differences...Sadly, they're dumb, ditzy, immature, snotty, fake, or they are the gravitational center to orbiting drama. - Amnesia620

feelgood

To anybody that posted saying that they like rap:

Do you like rap because of the music itself or the lyrics?

Because to me, the music is electronic, techno, trance, etc, rap isn't even making its own music to go along with the song.

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martinguerre

with Mos Def, Talib Kweli, common...i definitely listen for the lyrics.

Some stuff out there has all the integrity of pop music...fun to listen to, but not much substance. But there's real stuff out there too...and i'm not a purist. I just think both have their places. But if you're looking to see if rap is "real" or not...go to some of those artists.

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Derwood

Go listen to "Check Your Head" by Beastie Boys. They rap AND they play their own instruments on most of the album. Is it the exception to the rule? Yes. But on the other hand, a great producer is just as good as an instrumentalist. Finding the right music to go with the rhyme is a tough thing. Take "Roses" by Kanye West. Has anyone heard a rap song in recent memory where most of it has NO BEAT? And the sample is absolutely perfect. One of the best rap songs I've heard in the past 5 years...

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aberkok

I just finished watching a great concert at this link:

Sandip Burman

It is not hip-hop. The reason I am posting it is because I am noticing that there is an overwhelming lack of rhythmic awareness in this thread from those who are saying rap is "all lyrics and no music." For those brought up on music which stems out of the west (classical, folk, rock and pop), rhythmic training and hearing is very underdeveloped.

While rap rhythmically isn't quite at the level of Indian classical music, the best examples hold a lot of rhythmic interest. If you think rap is all lyrics, think again. Listen to how the artist lays back on the time, speeds up, displaces accents, changes rhythmic groupings to go against the main pulse...that's why I like it. The wordplay ain't too shabby either.

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Martian

Yes!

Too much emphasis on melody these days, not much on rhythm. I think being a jazz enthusiast helps one to appreciate rhythmic variation.. with a good jazz artist, how he plays is just as important as what he plays.

I don't listen to mainstream hip hop, but there's a highly developed sense of rhythm throughout the genre. I hesitate to make generalizations and it's not a universal, but for the most part that's true. When you don't sing, rhythm is all you have. You better do something interesting with it.

EDIT - And about the Beastie Boys, one of my favourite tracks by them is Three MC's and One DJ. It's just them, Mix Master Mike and a drum machine. There is no melody.

When I used to march I loved listening to the drum line during the 'street beats.' Those kids were very creative for not having any real notes to play.

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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

noahfor

Hey. I started this thread, and I still hate rap. Awesome. However, I know now that what I hate in rap and the rap culture isn't specific to rap. It's everywhere. I hate everything.

Johnny Pyro

I like old school rap. The new rap today is way produced and it talks about fame,wealth, and power. I and most people can't relate to that.

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filtherton

Yeah, that's what i'm talking about.

Wyodiver33

I've been thinking about a reply for a few minutes. Nothing I have to say is racial, so don't even start with that crap. Any genre of music where having served time for violent or drug related crime is seen as a badge of honor just kind of makes me sick. And those of you who like the thumpin' bass; could ya at least close your damned car windows? Why in the world would people in South Florida choose to drive around with the windows down? I know why, to irritate the hell out of people who don't like the crapalicious, thugtastic "music" you choose to listen to. I'm done. If I say too much more I'm going to piss too many people off. So, Yo Yo Yo to ya.

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I like stuff.