Cynthetiq

Well, next question after this thred

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...aving+children

is simple. Are you willing to commit to the decision to the point of surgical permanence?

I'm thinking about if that's a real choice for me.

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lurkette

Ratbastid and I are in the same position, and at least for me I've decided not to commit to surgical permanence, as you put it. We're still young enough that we could change our minds (though the fertility clock is winding down, thank god) and I don't now, it just seems so...permanent. Granted, vasectomies are more reversible than tubal ligations, but there's no guarantee that it could be reversed. That, and I kind of like being on the pill all the time and not having a period, so there's no real reason to do anything about it till I decide I don't want to be on the pill any more, most likely for medical reasons, which increase with age.

If there's one thing I've learned in the past decade, it's that things that opinions change. This is not one that's likely to change for us, but there's still just enough doubt in my mind to not want to commit to a decision.

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maleficent

Vasectomies are reversible so it's really not completely permenant.

If you've made the choice that you don't want children, and it's your choice, I honestly think that a vasectomy is an extremely loving thing to do. Tubal ligations or hysterectomies are pretty much major surgery. A vasectomy is an out patient procedure and well, an ice pack for a day or two, and you're good to go. (least according to my friends)

Birth control for women, is also hard on the body and can cause other complications, so if you plan on staying with the same woman for the rest of your life (and most folks don't get married if they don't) then why not opt for permenant birth control.

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PredeconInferno

It's funny you say this because I know a guy that was married to a woman for 5 years or something (some minimum time for some divorce thing) only because she wanted citizenship here (she's from New Zealand).

Just a thought.

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Samurai in Training
Knowledge is power. Guard it well.

PhatnS2pid

Are you a female? Because if you're a guy, there is no such thing as "surgical permanence" short of being castrated.

edit: WOW I just said the same thing that half the other people in this thread said. IR SMRT.

Anyways, I'd get a vasectomy if I was married mayhaps, or the common-law equivalent.

absorbentishe

My brother was in that boat when he got married. She didn't want children, so he got cut. Their now divorced, but he doesn't want children. My parents were fine with his decision in the first place. He spends time with my kids, so he's not really missing out.

Cynthetiq

nope Male. once i make the decision if for whatever reason they cannot reconnect them I have to be comfortable with that as a possibility, thus in my mind it's permanent.

absorbentishe

A friend had a vas, and 4 years later had it reversed. But... it did not work. Still sterile. I'm sterile now, but after children.

Cynthetiq

that is a consideration for me, but not because of the divorce but heaven forbid that my spouse passes away and it changes my outlook on life that when I remarry I decide that children are what I want...

I'm in the process of mentally reconciling that possibility now and being also an impossibility.

ARTelevision

IMHO not having children is the best option folks can take.

And yes, of course, at some point, I suppose there would be a need for replenishing the population but we're so far from that point it's irrelevant.

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:::OshnSoul:::

Moon got a vasectomy after his 2nd (my 1st) child. I am content with that for the most part, although I do and will always miss being pregnant. But I really don't wish to have any more kids. i am surrounded by neices & nephews.

lurkette

Out of curiosity, why?

Most people I talk to who have had children gush that it's the best thing you can do, the most joyful, the most fulfilling, yada yada yada.

I also think it's probably the biggest pain in the ass, and how do they know it's the most fulfilling thing you can do when they probably gave up on a lot of other fulfilling things to have kids? It's not like they have a valid scientific control marked "if only."

That said, there's SO much pressure to have kids - our whole fricking society is practically built around it - that it strikes me there must be something other than biological imperative involved. I almost feel like I need to do something great to redeem my life if I don't have kids. I also think it's probably what you make of it - it could be fulfilling if you make it so, and it could be a pain in the ass if you just do it because it's something to do.

But I'm definitely interested in the opinions of those folks who have had kids and think it's not the best thing since sliced bread and everyone ought to do it.

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hannukah harry

just a thought, but you could get snipped after having some of your little soldiers put on ice, that way if you change your mind and the reversal doesn't work, you still got some baby batter to use.

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Esco

Excellent advice. I work with a guy who did this. It was a little pricey but I cannot imagine something that would be more worth it.

MSD

A whole lot of people have kids and don't raise them right, a whole lot of people have kids and can't afford to feed, clothe, and educate them, and the world is approaching its population capacity. The survival of the human race does not depend on every couple having their 2.3 children anymore, and from a statistical standpoint, more children are excessive.

qtpye4u84

I Heard some where that the males tubes can grow back together after being cut. The females can too. But they can have scar tissue and they might not work.
Its better if the man gets fixed, cause then they just cut a little slit and that would be less work then to what a female has to get done.

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The QTpie

Nisses

I thought you could just have them clamped off, the tubes I mean

That way, if you ever change your mind, it's alot easier to reverse it. But I guess that might not be 100% effective afterwards?

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Moderation should be moderately moderated.

Cynthetiq

my thoughts on the clamping is that if for whatever reason one guy sneaks past or the clamp isn't just right then I'm living in the same false security that I currently am.

Let me advise the community in this thread, my wife currently does NOT take the pill. She's very adverse to taking anything that will change her hormonal balance.

Before we met she didn't even take any oral pills because she had never learned that behavior. All medication was some sort of liquid. She did eventually when we were together learn how to take oral meds on my urging because there are some medications that have no liquid form.

Because of her lack of willingness to take any hormonal contraception, we tried condoms which she did not favor either. (I didn't like them either.) I did not try to sway her in any fashion.

So we use the only method left to us which is withdrawal.

IMHO I'm gambling every time we have sex.

ARTelevision

lurkette, as I have personally had a particularly miserable and unrewarding experience having children - and because it is not generally the type of thing people say - I figure I should chime in when the subject comes up, just to represent that the joyful and supremely egotistical bliss of parenthood - creating little ersatz copies of oneself - is not always all it's cracked up to be.

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Cynthetiq

while it isn't it's still part of the wonderful thing called experience. It has hopefully made you a better person because of it.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Redlemon

Yeesh! Is abortion a contingency plan? I can't imagine being able to perform at all, if I didn't want kids and didn't use any protection. I hope you have a copy of the excellent guide Taking Charge of Your Fertility: The Definitive Guide to Natural Birth Control, Pregnancy Achievement, and Reproductive Health. We used it to get pregnant, but the book works both ways.
We have a 20-month old son. It was the right thing for us to do at the time that we did it (33 years old). Prior to that, we were too busy/"selfish"* to have a child.

If you are ready, you know. If you aren't ready, DON'T DO IT.

---
* I mean "selfish" in a non-derogatory sense.

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I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Cynthetiq

I haven't read that book but am aware of her cycle to some degree.

I have asked the abortion question and the short answer is to figure it out at that time, but the direction it's leaning into is having the child which IMO is then the possibility that I wake up one day and my life radically shifts gears, which is why I'm taking the initiative myself.

If we've made the decision to a particular lifestyle I'm interested in trying to maintain it.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Charlatan

If you are thinking about vasectomy with the idea in the back of your head that it is reversible then you probably shouldn't be getting snipped.

I had a vasectomy about a year ago and had absolutely no averse effects. I have two kids and don't want any more kids. I'm 35 and have been married for 11 years to the same woman... My wife too does not like taking the pill because of what it does to her hormonal levels, etc. I don't like using condoms and don't trust other methods of birth control.

While I was nervous about the proceedure I researched it and realized it was no big deal. I made jokes with the doctor as he was working away with his cauterizing instrument.

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Cynthetiq

exactly.

how long was the procedure and what was the recovery???

last question... what was the cost and/or was it covered under medical benefits?

Redlemon

You've read the Clavus posts, haven't you?

vasectomy advice!!!!!!!!!!
Now I'm sterile...

hannukah harry

have you tried other methods of birth control like the diaphram, sponge, spermicidal gels, etc.? might be worht considering if you havent'.

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ARTelevision

As for the commonly stated shibboleth that there is something selfish about not having children, I can see no act more selfish in human life than the creation of children. It's just about the definition of selfish, in my opinion.

I wouldn't even take the time to say this if it wasn't such a rare concept for people to even consider. Having children is the most selfish thing there is.

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quadro2000

As usual, my opinions are pretty much in line with Lurkette's first response. (no pun intended...isn't "first response" a home pregnancy kit?)

Forever is a long time, and like I referenced in your journal, opinions, even the strongest of opinions, change. Ten years ago, you didn't see yourself getting married. And here you are, happily married for over two years now. (First of all, I commend you for following your heart, even when it strayed from "the plan.") Right now, you don't want children. Will it stay that way? Well, you have very strong thoughts on it, so there's a good possibility. But if for some reason your thoughts ever changed on it, it would be heartbreaking to find out that you physically couldn't - not without difficulty, anyway.

Here's where I personally stand on the thought of having kids in general. I don't think ANYBODY should have kids for any other reason than they WANT to. Some people can't wait to have kids. Some people think it's their purpose in life - to bring someone else into this world. I can understand that, and if they're passionate about it and are intent on devoting their life to it, then more power to them. But they shouldn't have them for reasons like carrying on the family name, because they feel it's what they "should" do, or for any stupid (IMHO) reasons regarding population. I think if anybody ever has kids for ANY other reason than they WANT to, there's a good chance of resenting those children later in life. I'm sure many kids have been raised under those circumstances. (The good parents never let their kids know about it, I think. I can't imagine what I would do if I thought my parents weren't happy to have me here.)

Personally? I don't want kids at the moment. There are a million circumstances in my life right now telling me that this is the right decision. Some are external circumstances (career choice, financial situation) and some are internal (seeing how my parents have fought over the way they raise kids, the fact that I'm just too selfish right now to have them).

But I don't know that my thoughts on these things will always stay the way they are now. So I don't want to make a permanent decision like that. But that's just the way I feel right now.

How does your wife feel?

Quadrette feels the way I do. I'm thankful we had this discussion before getting married, and I'm happy we're on the same page. I know that a day might come where we're not on that same page. I hope we can stay in tune enough with each other where it won't be an out-of-the-blue thought process. (The irony here is that we're pretty sure Quadrette would have fertility issues if we did try to have kids..but that's another story.)

The birth control issue is another thing altogether, but yes, Cyn, that is a very big gamble. I would venture that you two have been quite lucky over the time you've been together. I would just hate to see you lose that gamble, especially feeling the way you do now.

I can't venture to guess why certain people have kids. (That's a question for the Parenting forum). But there's a quotation from Parenthood (a fantastic movie that I think really shows the joys and heartbreak of parenting) that always sticks with me. (You'd have to ask a parent if it's true!) The grandmother speaks it at the end of the movie.

You know, when I was 19, grandpa took me on a rollercoaster. Up, down, up down. Oh, what a ride! I always wanted to go again. You know, it was just interesting to me that a ride could make me so...so frightened, so scared, so sick, so excited, and so thrilled all together.

Some didn't like it. They went on the merry-go-round. Nothing. I like the rollercoaster. You get more out of it.

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Cynthetiq

OMG... as usually Clavus does NOT disappoint.

thanks. for some reason I tell other people that the search button is your friend and in this case I didn't even think about doing that, and quadro can attest I'm a master googler.

Charlatan

It took maybe 15 minutes. I was advised to take it easy for the next couple of days, but golfed 9 holes the next day with only a little additional tenderness... Would have been less if I had rented a cart...

As a Canadian it didn't cost me a cent. The procedure is covered. It's interesting to note that the procedure to reverse it is not covered.

Stompy

Eek. I don't plan on ever having kids, but I could never see getting something like this done.

I get chills just thinking about it. Any surgery or self-modification of that sort is just ... odd.

I'm just curious why anyone would want to have this done when you have easier methods of birth control like the pill/patch. Sure, it's not 100%, but chances of a woman actually getting pregnant on it is VERY nil.

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Cynthetiq

because *I* don't want to have kids, then it's my responsibility to ensure it which is why I'm mulling this option over. IMO you're just foisting your responsibility on your SO.

My friend didn't either, and was trusting that his g/f and than wife, was taking the pill and she stopped without telling him. He now has 2 kids.

crony

The first chance I get, I'm getting snipped. Neither my wife nor I want kids. In fact, we had independently decided that before even getting together I just love how everyone is of the opinion that we'll change our minds.