Prenuptial agreements... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

davidc209 · 04-22-2003, 03:01 PM

So, what do you guys think of prenuptial agreements?

I've got a friend whose girlfriend is pressuring him into marriage. I'm saying "pressuring" very loosely... they've been together for about three years and really do love each other. He's 26, she's 21. He's worth around $2M, she's just a student with probably a hundred bucks in her checking account.

He gently proposed a prenup a few months ago and she FLIPPED accusing him of not trusting her, that he's predicting a divorce, etc. They made it through that and now my friend is considering proposing to the girl this May when they go to Hawaii. The prenup talk is sure to come up...

I'm certain they could spend the rest of their lives together. Sadly, divorce rates in the US are close to 50%. What's the general concensus on prenups? How do you convince a woman that it's a good idea without her thinking that you're predicting a divorce???

TaLoN · 04-22-2003, 03:30 PM

in my case i would tell her: "it is not that i am predicting a divorce, it is just that i absolutely cannot risk it. There are too many people depending on me and i will not be able to support them if i have to end up giving you half of my belongings"

SecretMethod70 · 04-22-2003, 03:31 PM

If my girlfriend was a 21 year old college student even LOOSELY pressuring me into mariage and I was worth 2 million, I'd get a prenup. I'm generally not in favor of them so it would be a fairly simple one, but I'd get it nonetheless. How to get her to do it, I'm not sure, I'd just explain it rationally *shrug*

mokle · 04-22-2003, 09:21 PM

Take that as a warning. If she won't sign a prenup, then she probably plans to take his money.

It's a double edged sword really, but I wouldn't risk not having one in his case.

madsenj37 · 04-23-2003, 01:00 AM

Im at not all for or against them. I would say it depends on the circumstances of how they met and how money comes into play. does every activity they do involve money or are there many activities where they do not need to spend money to have fun? Also, things change, people fall out of love. A pre nup could be looked at as a trust issue, but it can also be looked at as a love issue. If a person has problems signing a prenup, it could be because love is not the only factor.

sixate · 04-23-2003, 03:41 AM

He better get a prenup. The divorce rate is actually closer to 60%. Now just think of this. How many people do you know that are happily married? About half of the 40% that's left. So that means that roughly 20% of all marriages are happy ones..... Those are not good odds. If he's worth 2 million. She'll get half of the cash and 75-80% of his belongings. She didn't do a thing to deserve any of it. Now someone try to tell me this man shouldn't get a prenup. If I ever get married I'll get one or I won't get married. I look at it like this. Marriage is like signing a lifetime contract that can't be negotiated. Would you do that for a job? Fuck no you wouldn't. Cover your ass and trust nobody. Your wife included.

rogue49 · 04-23-2003, 07:10 AM

You know maybe if I was worth millions,

But personally, I don't like prenups

I think you just NEED to trust that love,
sometimes you NEED to take a risk in life.

Otherwise, you become cold inside, there is more to life than that.

gibber71 · 04-23-2003, 08:04 AM

I totally support prenups since a few buddies of mine got screwed big time after the marriages broke up.However,it would probably be a wiser path taken if people in general had better judgement before making that kind of investment into their future.

ratbastid · 04-23-2003, 08:14 AM

A prenup has nothing at all to do with love or trust. It's not about the relationship, or a prediction of future failure.

ALL it is is a butt-covering-in-the-worst-case thing. We don't want to think about dying either, but we make wills, right? This is the same thing.

If the prenup is a showstopper for her, then THAT might be saying something about the relationship.

wraithhibn · 04-23-2003, 08:30 AM

After seeing my uncle get screwed in divorce, I'm all for them, especially if there is large amounts of money involved.

I know some women who think it shows a lack of trust, but if there never is divorce, it really shouldnt matter.

Grimlok · 04-23-2003, 09:37 AM

Dude... Listen.

Prenups are a necessity especially if he has moolah. She can flip all she wants but until the Alqueda (sp? i know it's wrong) take over and start executing females who cheat on their husbands... then Prenups are a necessity.

If she thinks he doesn't trust he needs to give it to her straight...

"Listen you.. you... non prenuptual agreement wanting woman... I've busted my ass (doing whatever he did to get 2 million) and I'm not gonna lose it to no... no insecure non prenuptual wanting woman if you wake up and decide that hey.. .maybe just maybe you're too beautiful for me... or maybe your ass is just to nice... and you're just too sweet... (notice the smoothing over here. After a few more minutes of pumping up her ego... then comes the tears... just a couple. Express your own insecurities and even make up some stories of how you got screwed in the past... you know, letterman jackets, stuff not returned. Tell her how you vowed you would never let a lady take away what you've worked for... not even the girl of his dreams.)

And then...

And then... tell her that Sally (whoever the hell she is) would sign one if she didn't.

O.k., don't do that.. bad move.

Thing about a prenup... Female will still get Alimony and stuff. Just remember to have your friend live within her means... That way the established lifestyle won't be too extravagant and therefore the Alimony won't be that bad.

Also... Consider a 25 Year Prenup... wait.. maybe a 37 year Prenup. That should take him to retirement and the Only Alimony she can get after that is a portion of Social Security.

Anyway... the real question is, what kind of work does your friend do and is he hiring?

mokle · 04-23-2003, 10:44 AM

It's like getting a will, even if you're not nearing death. Shit happens, you may as well be prepared.

shotofgmplease · 04-23-2003, 07:05 PM

shit i would, i own property and i wouldn't want someone taking away my hard earned work.

i'm for them in this case, if neither one of them had nothing and were planning on starting their future together thats another but she has nothing and he's got it.

Memalvada · 04-23-2003, 07:31 PM

Id get one. A prenup doesnt necessarily predict a divorce.

Your friend needs to protect himself.

sublue · 04-24-2003, 07:09 AM

I can see both sides of this issue. I like what rogue49 said. At the same time, sixate's comment of only 20% happy success rate is also convincing. And keep in mind your friends are only 26 and 21. They are going to be completely different people when they're 40, 50, 60.

I think pre-nups are really individual. For your friend, I would suggest not just letting the subject go or either giving in, but seeing this as an oportunity to see how they resolve differences. If I were them with collectively more than $2 million, I would seek some outside help. I would make an appointment with both a lawyer and and a marriage councellor. This way they would both really explore their own positions and communicate with each other. The professionals will also take blame for the hard positions and ask the hard questions.

If the pre-nup gets carried forward, she will probably need her own lawyer where she will receive her own protection. (if I were him, I would probably pay for all legal fees so she doesn't feel pressured). Pre-nups can be anything they agree on. Let them figure out what feels fair instead of the court.

This all may cost a few grand, and even if it means the end of the relationship (no marriage), its money very well spent.

Antagony · 04-25-2003, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by m0k13
Take that as a warning. If she won't sign a prenup, then she probably plans to take his money.

A good theory.

And if that isn't true, then she is likely an idiot for saying those things anyway. A keeper of poor logic.

Met22 · 04-25-2003, 10:06 AM

First of all at 26 and 21 they have not seen it all.
I have lost 1/2 of my wealth once and here are some things to keep in mind. If your gut tells you something listen to it. Know the laws in your state. Beware of common law statutes.

They should wait to get married. Dude you are 26! If she does love him then she shouldn't care about the dollars, hence sign the pre-nup. If he brought it up to her then he feels he should have it. Keep in in the plan. Ask her to write a marriage contract, let's see what she comes up with?

Remember you live a long time with every decision you make, especially marriage.

4thTimeLucky · 04-25-2003, 01:07 PM

It's a real tough one.

These days you probably need one, but like asking your new girlfriend to go far an STD test it realy isn't a very good start to your 'new life' and kinda spoils the love and romance.

I don;t know much about divorce law, but should it be changed if prenups are now considered essential?

Fallon · 04-25-2003, 02:48 PM

I think the idea of a prenup is bad, but in the case of her not having that much money, and him having that much money, I'd have to say yes. My English teacher was commenting on those the other day(prenups) and he was saying if couples really got to know each other, then they wouldn't need them, because they'd either not get that far, or they would. I have to agree with that statement. But if she doesn't seem like she's in it for the money, and she gets that pissed off about it, I'd continue to go for it as she seems to be in it a good portion for the money.

hockeynutz · 04-26-2003, 04:18 AM

I would say that its necessary given the situation. However, if I really felt it was necessary I would have to give some serious thought to whether the relationship was already doomed. As others have said, a double-edged sword. If she won't sign then I would explain and show her the door...life isn't simple.

Liquor Dealer · 04-26-2003, 09:36 AM

This thing cuts both ways - I've seen too many girls work their asses off to put a husband through law or medical school only to get dumped on when the money starts to come in - There are definitely two sides to these things. Marriage is a contract and both parties should enjoy equal protection. I've always wondered how I would react to such an agreement. I can definitely see where the girl is coming from. After three years - starting when she was apparently 17 or 18 he most definiely has sampled the wares enough, and knows her well enough to be able to tell where they are headed. I think she's right - after this length of time it should be no strings attached or he should turn her loose and send her on her way.

analog · 04-26-2003, 10:32 PM

"I don't want to die, but I have to have a will to cover the worst-case scenario. If you truly love me, the money wouldn't matter for shit. Sign the fuckin thing, or get off my dick." lol that sounds about right.

Frosstbyte · 04-28-2003, 08:42 PM

Analog puts it harshly, but well. It's not a lack of trust, it's simply an unacceptable possibility. She's not contributing in any way towards the financial aspect of the relationship in the way he is. Sure love means trust, but the flip side is that if she loves him, she shouldn't be worried about money.

Someone earlier said it well, if I had that much and she had that little and she couldn't understand why a prenuptial makes all the sense in the world to me, I'd bet she's just trying to take half of it. Call me cynical.

A prenup doesn't say "You need to use your money for all of your expenses and I won't pay a dime of it." It says, "In the worst possible scenario-which I don't forsee happening-what was originally yours will stay yours and what was originally mine will stay mine. Assuming that worst possible outcome doesn't happen, I will love and care for you and support you with all of my resources and abilities. If that does happen, we'll go our separate ways with what we each brought to the table with an even split of what we've gained since we got together."

She can't expect him to say "I love you and therefore trust completely that we'll never split up" just as he can't expect to her to say "I love you but money is not at all important." Tough call, but I'd say he has the stronger of the two arguments in this case, since the balance of resources is so heavily in his favor. Just my thoughts. Best of luck to him, though.

guthmund · 04-30-2003, 08:27 PM

I think everyone should sign a pre-nup.

You get everything you came into the marriage with, and a fair division of whatever you've created together. If you don't have any kids you split it 50/50 if you got 2 kids everyone gets 1/4.

Everyone gets what he/she has put into the marriage. Just because you're married to the them doesn't entitle you to the stuff they had before you met.

Cynthetiq · 05-01-2003, 06:10 AM

when i was younger... it was easier... 50% of zero is still zero... before my wife and I got married I had some property, some savings, and some investments. I didn't bother with any prenup stuff. Because it isn't all that much. As I get older and accumulate more stuff, yeah I'd say it's a bit more important because people are liars.

Personally I can't stand people who get married with the "death do us part" and then months/years later leave each other. Lied in front of friends and family. just my humble opinion.

Fallon · 06-16-2003, 04:20 AM

sorry for the bump, but going thru this situation right now. Both me and fiancee are both going thru college with about the same amount of debt. Neither of us really have any money or anything. So the other day, she asked about Prenup's. Whenever I think about them, I remember an article I read awhile ago saying that those are basically saying you think it could be doomed a few years down the line. I don't think if I willingly signed it, I'd be consciously be able to forget it. What are your thoughts when we are both dirt poor?

BigBlueWrecking · 06-16-2003, 06:46 AM

I am 100% behind prenups. I am a financial planner and we use them all of the time. Sometimes the women are offended. What he should say is to flip that "predicting divorce" back on her. If she thinks they will be happily married forever...it should be some stupid piece of paper. I look at it like Health Insurance....I have it, but that is not predicting cancer. It is a just in case.

Fallon · 06-16-2003, 07:46 AM

But are you not assured to have to use the Health Insurance in one form or another? I'm just trying to figure out since we're both going to be going into this with little to no income where this will become an issue. Unless I'm totally not understanding the basis of a Prenup, which I most likely am, it's for current assets. If she or I was rich, or we both were, I'd understand her reasoning more, but since we aren't, I'm kind of at a loss...

BigBlueWrecking · 06-16-2003, 07:56 AM

I apologize...I responded to the initial post. As for your situation...

Prenups can be structured in many different ways. If one person is going to be making 300K while the other 30K...you can structure them for future earnings (provided you have seperate bank accounts.) It is in no way anticipating a divorce. It is smart fiscal planning in case one happens. Inheritances and things like that can be dictated in one. I would rather have all of the cards on the table as opposed to at a later date.

LittleOralAnnie · 06-16-2003, 11:01 AM

I can see both sides of the coin. It doesn't matter if the female or male makes more money than the other. I think it's right to protect what was rightfully gained and worked hard for before the relationship came into being.

If I earned the money and all the belongings I have and was worth tons of moolah then I'd probably want to protect what is rightfully mine before entering into a lifelong marriage. Not because I don't love the person or because I'm not able to share, because I am, but it's only fair to stake a claim on what I earned on my own before the relationship.

Marrying someone just because they have cash is not only selfish but shallow and stupid.

Fallon · 06-16-2003, 11:22 AM

But what if both basically enter at the same level, and that's like both with about 20 bucks in their bank accounts?

BigBlueWrecking · 06-16-2003, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fallon
But what if both basically enter at the same level, and that's like both with about 20 bucks in their bank accounts?

The question is what are their families financial backgrounds?

What are the future earning potential for each partner?

More comes into play than having money currently in the account. What about assets that are not liquid? House, furniture, car?

Some even address any debt that the couple is currently in. Should one spouse be saddled with the other's debt if they choose to get a divorce?

If you really love her and think that it will work, sign it. If you never get divorced it is nothing more than a silly little piece of paper. If you do get divorced, it can take a horrible situation and make it go smoothly saving thousands on legal fees at a later date.

lurkette · 06-16-2003, 05:30 PM

Man, what a mess.

One the one hand, I think if you don't trust the person you're marrying you shouldn't get married.

On the other hand, you can't tell what's going to happen in the future. They could develop a personality disorder, or get hit on the head and change into a raving lunatic, or just turn out to be a really good liar who takes you for everything.

I think it's a case-by-case thing. But a pre-nup is different from a will. We all know we're going to die eventually. A will is preparing for death. How is a prenup not preparing for divorce, a not-so-certain eventuality, statistics be damned?

You might better spend the money on a good pre-marital counselor and a private investigator and a looooooong courtship, instead of legal fees.

eyeseepeedude · 06-17-2003, 04:39 AM

prenups are a loser's way out. (*that's all*)

Fallon · 06-17-2003, 06:39 AM

Technically, I'd probably have more to lose for future assets as I'll have the better paying job I believe. I don't think she's ever told me what she'd get in her ideal job. I suppose I'll get her as much information that I can find, and have her look it though and have her make up her mind and sign it if she gets it done, although it'll hit us both financially hard probably as it's suggested we each get a our own lawyer to look at the agreement and that's going to cost somethin. Oh well though.
Anyone know of some good information sites on this issue? Thanks

4thTimeLucky · 06-17-2003, 07:59 AM

BigBlueWrecker

You seem to have some experience with this, so here's my question:

If I were planning to marry someone in the not too distant future (and had not yet proposed to her) how should I go about getting a prenup with her in the most non-confrontational and mutually agreeable way?
I am thinking that there must some way of going to a financial adviser on my own and saying I want a prenup and then arranging some pretext that means both of us have to go and see the adviser about something. Then he asks us some questions and asks if we have a prenup. We both look surprised and then he says we really should make one and convinces us both that we should.

What do think?
Would a financial adviser agree to do such a thing?
What would a good pretext be?

BigBlueWrecking · 06-17-2003, 01:23 PM

If the financial adviser has enough to gain from it (ie if he will make good commissions from having you as a client for a number of years) I am sure they will do it.

Sometimes people bring it up through CPA's or lawyers that advise them of such issues. The easiest way to bring it up is to ask your soon to be spouse what she thinks of them. Or have one of your friends bring up a story regarding prenups and see what she says. Springing something on her through a financial planner might make her very uncomfortable.

I am of the opinion that it is fiscally responsible to have one. I wish I could be of more help.

4thTimeLucky · 06-17-2003, 02:30 PM

I am not in this position, but was just thinking thoughts.

The idea wouldn't be to spring it on her (i.e. make her decide then and there), but get the financial adviser to do a sort of 'standard financial health check' as part of which s/he brought up the issue of prenups (i.e. "oh so you're thinking of marrying, well in that case I recommend....."). Then we could go away and talk it over in a more calm and rational way. My thinking being, that if one of the couple brings it up then the other one will always suspect that they are being pressured to agree (and hence might not), but if a neutral third party raises the issue....

Anyway, such issues are far off in the future for me. But it is an issue that concerns me given the number of divorces I see around me.

bubbagumpshrimp · 06-18-2003, 03:36 PM

in this situation, I'd say push for the prenup. If she's not concerned about the marriage breaking up, what difference does it make to her if she signs it?

Looking at the statistics, there's a 50/50 change the marriage will fail, you really can't be too careful these days.

MSD · 06-30-2003, 12:10 PM

It's a safety net, not a crystal ball.

04-22-2003, 03:01 PM	#1 (permalink)
davidc209 Tilted Location: Miami, FL	Prenuptial agreements... So, what do you guys think of prenuptial agreements? I've got a friend whose girlfriend is pressuring him into marriage. I'm saying "pressuring" very loosely... they've been together for about three years and really do love each other. He's 26, she's 21. He's worth around $2M, she's just a student with probably a hundred bucks in her checking account. He gently proposed a prenup a few months ago and she FLIPPED accusing him of not trusting her, that he's predicting a divorce, etc. They made it through that and now my friend is considering proposing to the girl this May when they go to Hawaii. The prenup talk is sure to come up... I'm certain they could spend the rest of their lives together. Sadly, divorce rates in the US are close to 50%. What's the general concensus on prenups? How do you convince a woman that it's a good idea without her thinking that you're predicting a divorce???

04-22-2003, 03:31 PM	#3 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	If my girlfriend was a 21 year old college student even LOOSELY pressuring me into mariage and I was worth 2 million, I'd get a prenup. I'm generally not in favor of them so it would be a fairly simple one, but I'd get it nonetheless. How to get her to do it, I'm not sure, I'd just explain it rationally shrug __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

04-22-2003, 09:21 PM	#4 (permalink)
mokle Psycho Location: Alberta, Canada	Take that as a warning. If she won't sign a prenup, then she probably plans to take his money. It's a double edged sword really, but I wouldn't risk not having one in his case. __________________ Mokle "Your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see" -Ali

04-23-2003, 01:00 AM	#5 (permalink)
madsenj37 Still searching... Location: NorCal For Life	Im at not all for or against them. I would say it depends on the circumstances of how they met and how money comes into play. does every activity they do involve money or are there many activities where they do not need to spend money to have fun? Also, things change, people fall out of love. A pre nup could be looked at as a trust issue, but it can also be looked at as a love issue. If a person has problems signing a prenup, it could be because love is not the only factor. __________________ "Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not certain about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

04-23-2003, 08:30 AM	#10 (permalink)
wraithhibn Dopefish Location: the 'Ville	After seeing my uncle get screwed in divorce, I'm all for them, especially if there is large amounts of money involved. I know some women who think it shows a lack of trust, but if there never is divorce, it really shouldnt matter. __________________ If you won't dress like the Victoria Secret girls, don't expect us to act like soap opera guys.

04-22-2003, 03:30 PM	#2 (permalink)
TaLoN Loser Location: MI	in my case i would tell her: "it is not that i am predicting a divorce, it is just that i absolutely cannot risk it. There are too many people depending on me and i will not be able to support them if i have to end up giving you half of my belongings"

04-23-2003, 03:41 AM	#6 (permalink)
sixate Registered User Location: Somewhere in Ohio	He better get a prenup. The divorce rate is actually closer to 60%. Now just think of this. How many people do you know that are happily married? About half of the 40% that's left. So that means that roughly 20% of all marriages are happy ones..... Those are not good odds. If he's worth 2 million. She'll get half of the cash and 75-80% of his belongings. She didn't do a thing to deserve any of it. Now someone try to tell me this man shouldn't get a prenup. If I ever get married I'll get one or I won't get married. I look at it like this. Marriage is like signing a lifetime contract that can't be negotiated. Would you do that for a job? Fuck no you wouldn't. Cover your ass and trust nobody. Your wife included.

04-23-2003, 07:10 AM	#7 (permalink)
rogue49 Loser	You know maybe if I was worth millions, But personally, I don't like prenups I think you just NEED to trust that love, sometimes you NEED to take a risk in life. Otherwise, you become cold inside, there is more to life than that.

04-23-2003, 08:04 AM	#8 (permalink)
gibber71 Loser	I totally support prenups since a few buddies of mine got screwed big time after the marriages broke up.However,it would probably be a wiser path taken if people in general had better judgement before making that kind of investment into their future.

04-23-2003, 08:14 AM	#9 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	A prenup has nothing at all to do with love or trust. It's not about the relationship, or a prediction of future failure. ALL it is is a butt-covering-in-the-worst-case thing. We don't want to think about dying either, but we make wills, right? This is the same thing. If the prenup is a showstopper for her, then THAT might be saying something about the relationship.

04-23-2003, 09:37 AM	#11 (permalink)
Grimlok Tilted Location: Central Illinois	Dude... Listen. Prenups are a necessity especially if he has moolah. She can flip all she wants but until the Alqueda (sp? i know it's wrong) take over and start executing females who cheat on their husbands... then Prenups are a necessity. If she thinks he doesn't trust he needs to give it to her straight... "Listen you.. you... non prenuptual agreement wanting woman... I've busted my ass (doing whatever he did to get 2 million) and I'm not gonna lose it to no... no insecure non prenuptual wanting woman if you wake up and decide that hey.. .maybe just maybe you're too beautiful for me... or maybe your ass is just to nice... and you're just too sweet... (notice the smoothing over here. After a few more minutes of pumping up her ego... then comes the tears... just a couple. Express your own insecurities and even make up some stories of how you got screwed in the past... you know, letterman jackets, stuff not returned. Tell her how you vowed you would never let a lady take away what you've worked for... not even the girl of his dreams.) And then... And then... tell her that Sally (whoever the hell she is) would sign one if she didn't. O.k., don't do that.. bad move. Thing about a prenup... Female will still get Alimony and stuff. Just remember to have your friend live within her means... That way the established lifestyle won't be too extravagant and therefore the Alimony won't be that bad. Also... Consider a 25 Year Prenup... wait.. maybe a 37 year Prenup. That should take him to retirement and the Only Alimony she can get after that is a portion of Social Security. Anyway... the real question is, what kind of work does your friend do and is he hiring? __________________ Your future looks very very grim!

04-23-2003, 10:44 AM	#12 (permalink)
mokle Psycho Location: Alberta, Canada	It's like getting a will, even if you're not nearing death. Shit happens, you may as well be prepared. __________________ Mokle "Your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see" -Ali

04-23-2003, 07:05 PM	#13 (permalink)
shotofgmplease Upright Location: NEAR DC	shit i would, i own property and i wouldn't want someone taking away my hard earned work. i'm for them in this case, if neither one of them had nothing and were planning on starting their future together thats another but she has nothing and he's got it. __________________ whadata my damie.

04-23-2003, 07:31 PM	#14 (permalink)
Memalvada Psycho Location: South of the border	Id get one. A prenup doesnt necessarily predict a divorce. Your friend needs to protect himself. __________________ "The weak are food for the strong, so die and let me feast!" - Makoto Shishio (RK)

04-24-2003, 07:09 AM	#15 (permalink)
sublue Upright Location: Bay Area, California	I can see both sides of this issue. I like what rogue49 said. At the same time, sixate's comment of only 20% happy success rate is also convincing. And keep in mind your friends are only 26 and 21. They are going to be completely different people when they're 40, 50, 60. I think pre-nups are really individual. For your friend, I would suggest not just letting the subject go or either giving in, but seeing this as an oportunity to see how they resolve differences. If I were them with collectively more than $2 million, I would seek some outside help. I would make an appointment with both a lawyer and and a marriage councellor. This way they would both really explore their own positions and communicate with each other. The professionals will also take blame for the hard positions and ask the hard questions. If the pre-nup gets carried forward, she will probably need her own lawyer where she will receive her own protection. (if I were him, I would probably pay for all legal fees so she doesn't feel pressured). Pre-nups can be anything they agree on. Let them figure out what feels fair instead of the court. This all may cost a few grand, and even if it means the end of the relationship (no marriage), its money very well spent.

04-25-2003, 10:06 AM	#17 (permalink)
Met22 Junkie Location: X-posed	First of all at 26 and 21 they have not seen it all. I have lost 1/2 of my wealth once and here are some things to keep in mind. If your gut tells you something listen to it. Know the laws in your state. Beware of common law statutes. They should wait to get married. Dude you are 26! If she does love him then she shouldn't care about the dollars, hence sign the pre-nup. If he brought it up to her then he feels he should have it. Keep in in the plan. Ask her to write a marriage contract, let's see what she comes up with? Remember you live a long time with every decision you make, especially marriage. __________________ Living on the west end dreaming of the theater playing in the Metropolis - Dream the Dream Live the Dream

04-25-2003, 01:07 PM	#18 (permalink)
4thTimeLucky Psycho Location: 4th has left the building - goodbye folks	It's a real tough one. These days you probably need one, but like asking your new girlfriend to go far an STD test it realy isn't a very good start to your 'new life' and kinda spoils the love and romance. I don;t know much about divorce law, but should it be changed if prenups are now considered essential? __________________ I've been 4thTimeLucky, you've been great. Goodnight and God bless!

04-25-2003, 02:48 PM	#19 (permalink)
Fallon Junkie Location: RI	I think the idea of a prenup is bad, but in the case of her not having that much money, and him having that much money, I'd have to say yes. My English teacher was commenting on those the other day(prenups) and he was saying if couples really got to know each other, then they wouldn't need them, because they'd either not get that far, or they would. I have to agree with that statement. But if she doesn't seem like she's in it for the money, and she gets that pissed off about it, I'd continue to go for it as she seems to be in it a good portion for the money.

04-26-2003, 04:18 AM	#20 (permalink)
hockeynutz Upright	I would say that its necessary given the situation. However, if I really felt it was necessary I would have to give some serious thought to whether the relationship was already doomed. As others have said, a double-edged sword. If she won't sign then I would explain and show her the door...life isn't simple.

04-26-2003, 09:36 AM	#21 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	This thing cuts both ways - I've seen too many girls work their asses off to put a husband through law or medical school only to get dumped on when the money starts to come in - There are definitely two sides to these things. Marriage is a contract and both parties should enjoy equal protection. I've always wondered how I would react to such an agreement. I can definitely see where the girl is coming from. After three years - starting when she was apparently 17 or 18 he most definiely has sampled the wares enough, and knows her well enough to be able to tell where they are headed. I think she's right - after this length of time it should be no strings attached or he should turn her loose and send her on her way. __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

04-26-2003, 10:32 PM	#22 (permalink)
analog Banned	"I don't want to die, but I have to have a will to cover the worst-case scenario. If you truly love me, the money wouldn't matter for shit. Sign the fuckin thing, or get off my dick." lol that sounds about right.

04-28-2003, 08:42 PM	#23 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	Analog puts it harshly, but well. It's not a lack of trust, it's simply an unacceptable possibility. She's not contributing in any way towards the financial aspect of the relationship in the way he is. Sure love means trust, but the flip side is that if she loves him, she shouldn't be worried about money. Someone earlier said it well, if I had that much and she had that little and she couldn't understand why a prenuptial makes all the sense in the world to me, I'd bet she's just trying to take half of it. Call me cynical. A prenup doesn't say "You need to use your money for all of your expenses and I won't pay a dime of it." It says, "In the worst possible scenario-which I don't forsee happening-what was originally yours will stay yours and what was originally mine will stay mine. Assuming that worst possible outcome doesn't happen, I will love and care for you and support you with all of my resources and abilities. If that does happen, we'll go our separate ways with what we each brought to the table with an even split of what we've gained since we got together." She can't expect him to say "I love you and therefore trust completely that we'll never split up" just as he can't expect to her to say "I love you but money is not at all important." Tough call, but I'd say he has the stronger of the two arguments in this case, since the balance of resources is so heavily in his favor. Just my thoughts. Best of luck to him, though.

04-30-2003, 08:27 PM	#24 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	I think everyone should sign a pre-nup. You get everything you came into the marriage with, and a fair division of whatever you've created together. If you don't have any kids you split it 50/50 if you got 2 kids everyone gets 1/4. Everyone gets what he/she has put into the marriage. Just because you're married to the them doesn't entitle you to the stuff they had before you met. __________________ No signature. None. Seriously.

05-01-2003, 06:10 AM	#25 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	when i was younger... it was easier... 50% of zero is still zero... before my wife and I got married I had some property, some savings, and some investments. I didn't bother with any prenup stuff. Because it isn't all that much. As I get older and accumulate more stuff, yeah I'd say it's a bit more important because people are liars. Personally I can't stand people who get married with the "death do us part" and then months/years later leave each other. Lied in front of friends and family. just my humble opinion. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

06-16-2003, 04:20 AM	#26 (permalink)
Fallon Junkie Location: RI	sorry for the bump, but going thru this situation right now. Both me and fiancee are both going thru college with about the same amount of debt. Neither of us really have any money or anything. So the other day, she asked about Prenup's. Whenever I think about them, I remember an article I read awhile ago saying that those are basically saying you think it could be doomed a few years down the line. I don't think if I willingly signed it, I'd be consciously be able to forget it. What are your thoughts when we are both dirt poor?

06-16-2003, 06:46 AM	#27 (permalink)
BigBlueWrecking Psycho	I am 100% behind prenups. I am a financial planner and we use them all of the time. Sometimes the women are offended. What he should say is to flip that "predicting divorce" back on her. If she thinks they will be happily married forever...it should be some stupid piece of paper. I look at it like Health Insurance....I have it, but that is not predicting cancer. It is a just in case.

06-16-2003, 07:46 AM	#28 (permalink)
Fallon Junkie Location: RI	But are you not assured to have to use the Health Insurance in one form or another? I'm just trying to figure out since we're both going to be going into this with little to no income where this will become an issue. Unless I'm totally not understanding the basis of a Prenup, which I most likely am, it's for current assets. If she or I was rich, or we both were, I'd understand her reasoning more, but since we aren't, I'm kind of at a loss...

06-16-2003, 07:56 AM	#29 (permalink)
BigBlueWrecking Psycho	I apologize...I responded to the initial post. As for your situation... Prenups can be structured in many different ways. If one person is going to be making 300K while the other 30K...you can structure them for future earnings (provided you have seperate bank accounts.) It is in no way anticipating a divorce. It is smart fiscal planning in case one happens. Inheritances and things like that can be dictated in one. I would rather have all of the cards on the table as opposed to at a later date.

06-16-2003, 11:01 AM	#30 (permalink)
LittleOralAnnie Banned	I can see both sides of the coin. It doesn't matter if the female or male makes more money than the other. I think it's right to protect what was rightfully gained and worked hard for before the relationship came into being. If I earned the money and all the belongings I have and was worth tons of moolah then I'd probably want to protect what is rightfully mine before entering into a lifelong marriage. Not because I don't love the person or because I'm not able to share, because I am, but it's only fair to stake a claim on what I earned on my own before the relationship. Marrying someone just because they have cash is not only selfish but shallow and stupid. Last edited by LittleOralAnnie; 06-16-2003 at 11:04 AM..

06-16-2003, 11:22 AM	#31 (permalink)
Fallon Junkie Location: RI	But what if both basically enter at the same level, and that's like both with about 20 bucks in their bank accounts?

06-16-2003, 05:30 PM	#33 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	Man, what a mess. One the one hand, I think if you don't trust the person you're marrying you shouldn't get married. On the other hand, you can't tell what's going to happen in the future. They could develop a personality disorder, or get hit on the head and change into a raving lunatic, or just turn out to be a really good liar who takes you for everything. I think it's a case-by-case thing. But a pre-nup is different from a will. We all know we're going to die eventually. A will is preparing for death. How is a prenup not preparing for divorce, a not-so-certain eventuality, statistics be damned? You might better spend the money on a good pre-marital counselor and a private investigator and a looooooong courtship, instead of legal fees. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

06-17-2003, 04:39 AM	#34 (permalink)
eyeseepeedude Sir Location: Colorado Springs, CO	prenups are a loser's way out. (that's all) __________________ If you like what you see, donate to the TFP

06-17-2003, 06:39 AM	#35 (permalink)
Fallon Junkie Location: RI	Technically, I'd probably have more to lose for future assets as I'll have the better paying job I believe. I don't think she's ever told me what she'd get in her ideal job. I suppose I'll get her as much information that I can find, and have her look it though and have her make up her mind and sign it if she gets it done, although it'll hit us both financially hard probably as it's suggested we each get a our own lawyer to look at the agreement and that's going to cost somethin. Oh well though. Anyone know of some good information sites on this issue? Thanks

06-17-2003, 07:59 AM	#36 (permalink)
4thTimeLucky Psycho Location: 4th has left the building - goodbye folks	BigBlueWrecker You seem to have some experience with this, so here's my question: If I were planning to marry someone in the not too distant future (and had not yet proposed to her) how should I go about getting a prenup with her in the most non-confrontational and mutually agreeable way? I am thinking that there must some way of going to a financial adviser on my own and saying I want a prenup and then arranging some pretext that means both of us have to go and see the adviser about something. Then he asks us some questions and asks if we have a prenup. We both look surprised and then he says we really should make one and convinces us both that we should. What do think? Would a financial adviser agree to do such a thing? What would a good pretext be? __________________ I've been 4thTimeLucky, you've been great. Goodnight and God bless!

06-17-2003, 01:23 PM	#37 (permalink)
BigBlueWrecking Psycho	If the financial adviser has enough to gain from it (ie if he will make good commissions from having you as a client for a number of years) I am sure they will do it. Sometimes people bring it up through CPA's or lawyers that advise them of such issues. The easiest way to bring it up is to ask your soon to be spouse what she thinks of them. Or have one of your friends bring up a story regarding prenups and see what she says. Springing something on her through a financial planner might make her very uncomfortable. I am of the opinion that it is fiscally responsible to have one. I wish I could be of more help.