curiousbear

Yesterday in Tfp Chatroom Snowy, Smakcre, Amonkie - we were talking about Abuse versus Punishment versus Discipline... We even spoke about Isolation Discipline....

I shared the views with my SO. She founds this today coincidentally and sent to me: 6-Year-Old Oregon Girl Commits Suicide, Medical Examiner Says

Snowy, another coincidence is this happened in Oregon.

1) Is order and discipline against nature? Do children prefer chaos and no-order?
2) How do we really establish discipline and behavior?
3) At what age are they ready for a conversation? Until then how do we establish discipline?

We don't have kids. I am not even sure whether I will have one someday. But these are questions that often I think of...

Personally when I was a kid
1) I always stick to an order. Except for laziness I am not against order and discipline.
2) I was never too mischievous. That however could be due to lack of Intelligence
3) ~7 years I was ready for conversation. What ever I was told and convinced I just listened.

snowy

This article doesn't provide a lot of information about how the child was punished or disciplined, other than she was sent to her room after an argument with her mother.

First off, I don't agree with just sending a child to their room. As I have emphasized elsewhere, a conversation needs to occur. What did the child do wrong? How can they fix their behavior? Personally, I think this incident was probably more along the lines of punishment, as the article suggests that the mother raised her voice at her child. I suppose my perspective is colored by my own experience as a teacher of small children--when I discipline children, I cannot yell at them or physically intimidate them in any way, as that is against my professional ethics.

Secondly, children do desire boundaries, rules, and order. Children want routine. Mondays are always the worst days at work because children have spent a weekend out of their routine--sometimes WAY out of their routine. You can always tell when a kid spent their weekend doing something where their routine was thrown out the window. Parents complain to us at work all the time about various stuff: "Why can you get my kid's coat on but I can't? Why can you get my child to nap and I can't? Why does my child eat certain foods here that they won't eat at home (i.e. fruits and vegetables)?" The usual explanation is that we don't give in to a child as easily as their own parents do--if we say they can't have seconds of the main course of lunch until they try their apples, we mean it. When it comes to coats, we explain that we're going outside where it's cold and we can't go outside without a coat, and we put it on whether the child wants it or not. I've got one kid who used to throw an absolute fit when it came to putting on his coat to go outside, but after a week of intensive explanation of why we need coats and the teachers insisting on the coat, he now goes over to his cubby and points to his coat when it's time to go outside, saying "coat, coat, coat." This same child still gives his parents difficulty with the coat issue. When it comes to naps, our kids nap for us because we follow a strict routine and use cues (lights off, particular music CD on) to let them know it's time to sleep.

They are ready for a conversation at any age. Whether or not they understand the entire conversation isn't entirely relevant--think of it as a vocabulary building exercise when they're young. Also, young kids understand more than you think they do. Break it down into the simplest terms possible. I am able to sit down with 2-year-olds and ask them what is wrong with the situation. An example would be that I have a couple of kiddos with burgeoning vocabularies who often forget to use their words to solve problems, instead resorting to crying. When I sit down and ask them what went wrong, they are typically able to reply (telegraphically): "Use my words." If they aren't that advanced, I'm able to say, "Did you use your words?" "No." "Next time, should you use your words?" "Yeah." Using words to solve problems is an expectation I have for most kids 2 and up. Below that, I intervene. I will talk to them about the situation, what went wrong, and what should change for next time, but I don't expect a reply. Honestly, though, I am often surprised by what kids between the ages of 1-2 understand.

I don't think you should expect to really establish discipline other than saying no and explaining why you said no before the age of 2. There are some positive discipline tricks that work really well ages 1-2, such as redirection (moving the child to a different activity). At that age, it really depends on the child. I think what often happens is that parents either have no expectations of their child, or they have unreasonable expectations. The key is to have developmentally appropriate expectations--and what those expectations are depends on where a child is developmentally. I have a 22 month old with a great vocabulary and high understanding--my expectations are higher for him than they are for the 22 month old who has not reached that point yet.

Executing positive discipline is a skill set, and it is a skill set I'd like to see more people cultivate. I know it's hard for some people to believe, but children can be taught how to behave without the use of fear, intimidation, or corporal punishment. I see it in action every day.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

jewels

As a child, I was often locked in my room due to misbehavior. Granted, I must've been a toughie as I had major tantrums but my mom was ill-equipped to handle them. My parents believed in corporal punishment and I was whipped on my bare ass with dad's belt quite often; my mom would slap my face with the back of her hand in public.

I hated my parents while growing up but had a close neighbor who was very loving and never physically disciplined her 5 kids. Her strict but loving parenting style was what I vowed to utilize when I became a parent. And I have.

I've never laid a hand on my kids. There were some issues with my first husband and my oldest, so early on there wasn't much consistency with her. But routine and consistency were crucial to the development of my younger two and and oldest a little later on. I've always talked to them in an age-appropriate manner and never had to say "because I said so". You can maintain "authority" without being an authoritarian, if that makes sense.

Was I perfect? Definitely not. I've raised my voice and thrown a thing or two across the room. But I knew that was my anger and frustration and did my best to let them know why I was upset and what my expectations would be. Their understanding and wanting to please me ensured that any particular incident wouldn't reoccur.

My feelings about it in a nutshell:
Oh and by the way, my oldest made the decision to move in with her father on her 18th birthday. At the time, I felt a lot of guilt, thinking I had been a horrible parent. Only months later, she admitted that aside from having me right there to talk to, she missed the discipline the most.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Zeraph

When I was a kid I behaved because I had a strong loving relationship with my parents and I didn't want to dissapoint them. Making them angry wasn't a big deal, but when they do the guilt trip, "I'm not angry I'm just disapointed..." Always got me good. But it was because they treated me well and I didn't feel like I was in a semi-war with them in what I could get away with. We had open discussions all the time.

One time, when I was like 6, I even punished myself before my parents even found out. They asked my why I was standing in the corner, and I said because I stole a toy from my sister. I knew it would disapoint them as soon as I did it (but impulsiveness of a kid I did it anyway, then it hit me several seconds later).

curiousbear

Children do like order, rules and boundaries:
Now I can relate to it. Every time the order and routine is altered, I had noticed them acting cranky. Sleeping pattern, feeding pattern, play time .... I get it. Discipline in fact starts right from there I guess

Conversation:
I do now recollect a relative who had never raised hand at his daughter. Even though she is very naughty she always listens to her dad! (that puts off her mom though). I think the real challenge here is the patience and perseverance and involvement of the adult.... which is the key

Skills:
I remember reading about "redirection" method used by Killer Whale Trainers. And I had seen people doing it with their kids but in slightly silly manner. What I had witnessed looks like "diverting" or "distracting" them rather than redirection I need to understand the redirection more clearly - I will do that home work.
Are there workshops for expecting parents or parents with new borns on such skills? Sounds like an amazing thing to do Well I guess training kids are much easier than training adults...

snowy, you are right. I had seen my close friends who are now parents... They act really weird at times. May be I need to become a parent to get that weird

snowy

Yes, there are workshops and classes. There are books. One of the best places to look for classes is community colleges (when you're back in the States).

Most of my knowledge of positive discipline comes from textbooks and putting it into practice. I'll take a look at the books at the public library and see if there are any good ones meant for parents.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

curiousbear

ok Thank You