Teens and Privacy - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Halanna · 06-02-2009, 07:11 AM

So, I've been thinking about this topic this morning. It came up during a visit with family yesterday.

During this little family soiree, someone mentioned their teenage daughter and myspace. How they are concerned, don't like it, are worried, you get the general track this was on.

The answer was obvious to me, or so it appeared. Log onto the myspace account when she's not home to check out what's going on and/or physically go there and remove the page, and not allow her to have a myspace account. Simple. The response to my saying this was . . unexpected.

After saying the above and relating how I check what my son (he's 16) is doing online on a semi-regular basis, have all his username/passwords, etc. I was accused of not respecting my son's privacy. (that sounds really harsh, this wasn't a knock down drag out, just a discussion)

My husband of course agrees with me. We were like, privacy? He doesn't need privacy. There isn't anything that he should be doing that we can't see. We don't abuse it, I'm not logging into his MSN Messenger every day, or his myspace. Just once in a while, usually when I think about it, which isn't that often. It's more that he knows I could at any time.

So, this person is concerned about her daughter's myspace account, but won't do anything about it because it's an invasion of her privacy.

Whereas, it would appear I am being too overprotective and invading my son's privacy, but I don't have any concerns about him being online, I can see for myself that he's not doing anything that he shouldn't.

So where does the teen's right to privacy end and the parent's right to protect begin?

edit: beecuse I spel gud

ShaniFaye · 06-02-2009, 07:24 AM

my teen's right to privacy starts when she turns 18 and I am legally not responsible for her anymore...she knew from the beginning that I require all passwords to her social networking accounts and that I will check them at any time..this doesnt mean Im a snoop, I do understand teens want to complain about mom lol If she started exhibiting behavior that I thought needed checking into I would most certainly do it, any parent that is more concerned with being a PARENT over being a friend would

genuinegirly · 06-02-2009, 07:26 AM

When the child turns 18, they have a right to privacy.
Anytime before that and they're not adults.
I can see how your response would be contraversial, but as long as you and your husband agree on the methods you are using to raise your children, I see no problems.

Edit: nice to see that we're on the same page, Shani

Baraka_Guru · 06-02-2009, 07:45 AM

Isn't the hotter issue confidentiality and access to contraceptives?

Myspace aside (I believe teens don't have absolute rights to privacy in that regard), I believe teens deserve a certain amount of privacy in issues of birth control and access to the essentials for practicing safe sex.

The foremost problem I see is when a parent's belief system would trump reason when it comes to this sort of thing. The role of public health is a wider matter related to this.

shakran · 06-02-2009, 07:45 AM

Agreed, ladies. Kids do stupid things. Arguing that they should have the privacy to do them is really just an excuse for being too lazy to actually be a parent. It's much easier to not go through all the work of checking up on your kid by claiming the kid has a right to privacy than it is to face criticism when you say what you really mean, which is "I don't feel like doing the work that I agreed to do when I took on the job as parent."

Bill O'Rights · 06-02-2009, 08:28 AM

Wow!
I see a marked attitude shift here. Some six or seven years ago, I was soundly bashed for taking the stance that teenagers should neither expect nor receive total privacy. I advocated periodic room searches, "friend" screening and internet surveilance. I took the stance that as long as I was responsible for my teenager, then I had the absolute right to know exactly what she was doing at all times. My views were not popular, to say the least. I wonder what will happen here when some of the younger members start to weigh in?

ShaniFaye · 06-02-2009, 08:29 AM

You are my idea of a good dad BOR

shakran · 06-02-2009, 09:27 AM

I seem to vaguely recall that, Mr. O'Rights. My theory is that the thread is still young, and the privacy advocates haven't found it yet. Patience

Plus, in those 6 or 7 years the number of reported incidents of child molesters using social sites on the net to find victims has gone up, which I'm sure has shifted some people's attitudes.

My argument hasn't really changed though. If the kid wants privacy, he can sue for emancipation, move out, and get his own damned place. As long as I the hypothetical parent am responsible for him, and Paying, for him. . .His life is open to inspection.

The_Jazz · 06-02-2009, 09:33 AM

Could be that they've grown the fuck up and realized that they don't know everything. But at least they've stopped playing ball on my lawn.

Martian · 06-02-2009, 09:43 AM

It's a balancing act. Too little privacy, and the child doesn't learn independence. Too much runs the risk of the kid doing the stupid things kids do.

You can't protect your teenager from everything out in the Big Bad World. Education and openness are effective tools and need to be employed alongside supervision.

Age plays a role too. The teenage years a a time of rapid development. What's appropriate for a 14 year old is very different to what's appropriate for a 17 year old. I'm of the opinion that by the time they're old enough to drive you've probably missed out on your chance to teach them the proper habits to protect themselves anyway.

I don't agree with the idea that children don't deserve any privacy. I think it's an issue of trust, and I think showing your children you trust them is key to having a good relationship and helping your child learn to make the right decisions on their own. The flip side of that, of course, is that trust must be earned.

But no. Checking and/or removing Myspace isn't a real privacy violation, especially if Myspace is a continued source of trouble. Rights come with responsibilities. Don't live up to the responsibilities, lose the right.

Manic_Skafe · 06-02-2009, 09:44 AM

I don't see anything wrong or neglectful in allowing your children a modicum of privacy and the room to make their own mistakes. They obviously shouldn't have available to them the same privileges and freedoms as an adult but a parenting style founded upon mutual respect and trust and the willingness to appropriately correct and reward behavior results in children who develop into mature, adjustable and self-confident adults.

Children need to understand that the onus for their success or failure is ultimately on them. Forcing your kids to feel they're serving a life sentence in the panopticon only leads them to become really good at lying and hiding.

Like any relationship, communication is key.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

It's much easier to not go through all the work of checking up on your kid by claiming the kid has a right to privacy than it is to face criticism when you say what you really mean, which is "I don't feel like doing the work that I agreed to do when I took on the job as parent."

Yes and those who don't share my same exact appreciation for art, wine, concerts, cars, cinema and whatever else are nothing more than uncivilized cavemen.

Martian · 06-02-2009, 09:58 AM

Useless personal anecdote: My mother never tried to monitor or limit my online freedom. By the time we got internet into the home, I was far more savvy in such things than she is to this day, and my knowledge increased rapidly when given access to the wellspring of information that is the online world. Indeed, even out in RL (as the kids are calling it these days) I didn't have a lot of restrictions, and was pretty much free to come and go as I pleased within reasonable limits from about 14 on, so long as she knew where I was.

I like to think I turned out more or less okay, because I'd been raised in an environment valuing respect and responsibility.

Eventually you have to trust your kids to make the right decisions for themselves. The teenage years are when the limits should be expanded, and the pace at which that should occur is highly context-sensitive.

ShaniFaye · 06-02-2009, 10:01 AM

Im almost kinda glad the internet wasnt around when I was a teenager, Id hate to have seen how my parents handled it with me

shakran · 06-02-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic_Skafe

I don't see anything wrong or neglectful in allowing your children a modicum of privacy and the room to make their own mistakes. They obviously shouldn't have available to them the same privileges and freedoms as an adult but a parenting style founded upon mutual respect and trust and the willingness to appropriately correct and reward behavior results in children who develop into mature, adjustable and self-confident adults.

Interesting that you should argue this in a time when parenting has overall become more "mutual respect" oriented, yet children and adults have become more disrespectful. We are raising a nation of little entitlement hellions. If you don't believe me, there are a number of articles in which hiring managers complain that young employees today feel that they are owed the job and the money that comes with it, but don't want to be told what to do.

Your argument would be stronger if it weren't for the evidence of what modern parenting trends are producing.

Quote:

Children need to understand that the onus for their success or failure is ultimately on them.

Eventually, on them. Children's parents need to understand that, while they are cognitively developed adults (theoretically, anyway), their children are not, even at the ripe old age of 17. This is why children are supposed to live at home until they are legal adults. If they were fully capable of managing their own life, and taking on the full responsibility for their success or failure, then they would not need to stay at home, and could move out and save you money.

Quote:

Forcing your kids to feel they're serving a life sentence in the panopticon only leads them to become really good at lying and hiding.

I didn't say my kid was going to get handcuffed and only let out for exercise for 30 minutes a day. I said as a parent I have not only the right, but the responsibility, to know what he's up to.

Quote:

Yes and those who don't share my same exact appreciation for art, wine, concerts, cars, cinema and whatever else are nothing more than uncivilized cavemen.

And just what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

lostgirl · 06-02-2009, 12:07 PM

All I know is that when my niece had to let her dad see her Myspace, she just created a new account he doesn't know about. I am the only family member she trusts enough to share everything with. I make sure she stays out of trouble, give her advice, and she knows she can trust me to not betray her confidence.

ratbastid · 06-02-2009, 12:23 PM

I hope my brother can be that way for my (eventual, currently-theoretical) kids, lostgirl. I'd love to be that way for my (actual, non-theoretical) nephew, when the time comes.

I think kids need SOME boundary-free areas. I think they need to explore, they need to skin their knees. Otherwise they end up out in the world expecting everything to be padded to complete safety the way their playground was. Have you SEEN playgrounds these days? Appalling. I'm going to get my kid a stick off a tree and tell them to go play in the creek. The woman who let her 12-year-old take the subway home alone is my hero. They need to learn that the world is basically safe if they have their head on straight.

I intend to protect them from what real dangers are out there--and even more than that, to protect the world from the worst of their childishness.

That's my strategy when they're young. I haven't made my plan for when they're teens.

The_Jazz · 06-02-2009, 12:33 PM

I'm in the toddler phase with both boys. Max is mostly not an immediate danger to himself (despite having run straight into the lip of our kitchen island on purpose), but he has a friend who is 2 months younger that doesn't understand that he can't run into the street, which is scary as hell. It almost happened this weekend while they were visiting.

And Drew is a full-blown danger to himself. If I let him, he'd sit under our deck and chew on river rock. Seriously.

One of our lazy habits is to allow Max to have computer time - with a timer and for 15 minutes at a time. We've got what he calls his "computer set" that has basically what amount to action figures that, when properly plugged into the base, will take him to specific sites in a proprietary brouser. Places like Thomas the Tank Engine, Dragon Tails, Fisher Price, etc. that have videos and games he can play. It's all fine for an under-5-year-old. But what he really likes is Youtube videos, usually Blue Angels flights, snowplow trains (don't ask), A-10 Warthogs, Calliou and Justin Roberts (a kids singer). But he can get to some pretty graphic stuff in just a few clicks given the right starting point. There's a whole culture on Youtube that hates Calliou (probably with reason) and have created a bunch of content that's not at all appropriate for a 3-year old. When he's watching Youtube, the mouse sits in a place that he can't reach. He gets to pick the next video, but not without one of us ok'ing it first.

Leto · 06-02-2009, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Wow!
I see a marked attitude shift here. Some six or seven years ago, I was soundly bashed for taking the stance that teenagers should neither expect nor receive total privacy. I advocated periodic room searches, "friend" screening and internet surveilance. I took the stance that as long as I was responsible for my teenager, then I had the absolute right to know exactly what she was doing at all times. My views were not popular, to say the least. I wonder what will happen here when some of the younger members start to weigh in?

You wouldn't have been bashed by me. You are a poster-dad. My kids (those that are minors) can expect no less.

Jinn · 06-02-2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

One of our lazy habits is to allow Max to have computer time - with a timer and for 15 minutes at a time. We've got what he calls his "computer set" that has basically what amount to action figures that, when properly plugged into the base, will take him to specific sites in a proprietary brouser. Places like Thomas the Tank Engine, Dragon Tails, Fisher Price, etc. that have videos and games he can play. It's all fine for an under-5-year-old. But what he really likes is Youtube videos, usually Blue Angels flights, snowplow trains (don't ask), A-10 Warthogs, Calliou and Justin Roberts (a kids singer). But he can get to some pretty graphic stuff in just a few clicks given the right starting point. There's a whole culture on Youtube that hates Calliou (probably with reason) and have created a bunch of content that's not at all appropriate for a 3-year old. When he's watching Youtube, the mouse sits in a place that he can't reach. He gets to pick the next video, but not without one of us ok'ing it first.

Sounds like a responsible parent. Here here, three cheers and a damn handshake. I can ultimately pin just about every social evil I can imagine on fucking terrible parents. Also, I like Blue Angels flights, Snowplow trains and A-10 Warthogs.. woooo..

Glory's Sun · 06-02-2009, 01:40 PM

My kids are still young.. but when they get older I plan to try and find that fine line that every parent dreams of finding.. you know the one where you're a friend and a parent. I was brought up in a military household and privacy was not in great supply. I think that while I will monitor what my kids do, I can't expect them to become anything unless they fail and try things on their own. success is bred by failure, not by coddling.

my son uses the computer and he's 4. naturally, he only goes to noggin and thomas and friends. He's limited on his computer time and his television time. Of course if they are around and mommy and daddy want to "wrestle" then I don't mind a bit of extra TV time

Manic_Skafe · 06-02-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

Interesting that you should argue this in a time when parenting has overall become more "mutual respect" oriented, yet children and adults have become more disrespectful. We are raising a nation of little entitlement hellions. If you don't believe me, there are a number of articles in which hiring managers complain that young employees today feel that they are owed the job and the money that comes with it, but don't want to be told what to do.

Your argument would be stronger if it weren't for the evidence of what modern parenting trends are producing.

Chalking all of that up to a matter of parenting styles and parenting styles alone isn't the least bit sensible nor is it accurate. I've read plenty of those articles, many of which have been posted in this forum - most of which are arguable at best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

Eventually, on them. Children's parents need to understand that, while they are cognitively developed adults (theoretically, anyway), their children are not, even at the ripe old age of 17. This is why children are supposed to live at home until they are legal adults. If they were fully capable of managing their own life, and taking on the full responsibility for their success or failure, then they would not need to stay at home, and could move out and save you money.

This is obviously so. Perhaps you've misinterpreted my post or I wasn't clear enough but I don't believe that we are arguing from entirely different positions. Just as your argument doesn't call for extreme restriction, mine doesn't call for total freedom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

And just what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

It was in reference to your choice of words and the tone implied. Intended or not, your post read as snooty and judgmental of those who adopt an authoritative parenting style rather than an authoritarian style.

shakran · 06-02-2009, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic_Skafe

It was in reference to your choice of words and the tone implied. Intended or not, your post read as snooty and judgmental of those who adopt an authoritative parenting style rather than an authoritarian style.

My argument is, and remains, that children do not have a right, to privacy. Sure, perhaps they will earn more privacy as they demonstrate the ability to make increasingly wise decisions, but it should (and does, in my house) remain a privilege - and one that can be removed at a moment's notice should I as the parent feel it necessary for any reason.

Even if your kid is a straight A student who stays out of trouble and volunteers her free time at the nursing home, it is still possible for her to get suckered by some jackass into doing things that she shouldn't do - things that aren't even obvious to some adults that you shouldn't do, such as giving out personal information on the internet. So yes, if I had a teenaged daughter I would want to know what she was doing on Myspace (and not just because no one uses myspace anymore

), facebook, hell, even something silly like second life.

The internet is not the forest of fear that the media makes it out to be, where any woman who ventures online will end up getting raped and having their identity stolen. But it is also not happy playland either. The anonymity of the net encourages people to be their true assholish self. Sometimes this manifests as something benign, like being more blunt on a message board than they would in real life (that would be me,) and sometimes it manifests as a fetishist who likes to see how far he can get a teen girl to go sexually, or if he can get enough of the kid's information to steal their identity.

My job as parent is not only to raise my kid to eventually be a self-actualized adult, but to also protect them from dangers of which they have no experience, while remaining fully cognizant of the fact that teenagers as a whole feel themselves to be immortal and invulnerable, until something bad happens to them.

I have no problem with authoritative parenting. I think it better by far, in fact, than authoritarian. But an authoritative parent does not claim that his kid has a right to privacy. That is the claim of the laissez-faire parent, and I will firmly tell you all day long that such a parenting style is detrimental to the child, both from a safety standpoint as we are discussing here, and from a growing-into-a-mature-adult standpoint.

ShaniFaye · 06-02-2009, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

My argument is, and remains, that children do not have a right, to privacy. Sure, perhaps they will earn more privacy as they demonstrate the ability to make increasingly wise decisions, but it should (and does, in my house) remain a privilege - and one that can be removed at a moment's notice should I as the parent feel it necessary for any reason.

Even if your kid is a straight A student who stays out of trouble and volunteers her free time at the nursing home, it is still possible for her to get suckered by some jackass into doing things that she shouldn't do - things that aren't even obvious to some adults that you shouldn't do, such as giving out personal information on the internet. So yes, if I had a teenaged daughter I would want to know what she was doing on Myspace (and not just because no one uses myspace anymore

), facebook, hell, even something silly like second life.

The internet is not the forest of fear that the media makes it out to be, where any woman who ventures online will end up getting raped and having their identity stolen. But it is also not happy playland either. The anonymity of the net encourages people to be their true assholish self. Sometimes this manifests as something benign, like being more blunt on a message board than they would in real life (that would be me,) and sometimes it manifests as a fetishist who likes to see how far he can get a teen girl to go sexually, or if he can get enough of the kid's information to steal their identity.

My job as parent is not only to raise my kid to eventually be a self-actualized adult, but to also protect them from dangers of which they have no experience, while remaining fully cognizant of the fact that teenagers as a whole feel themselves to be immortal and invulnerable, until something bad happens to them.

I have no problem with authoritative parenting. I think it better by far, in fact, than authoritarian. But an authoritative parent does not claim that his kid has a right to privacy. That is the claim of the laissez-faire parent, and I will firmly tell you all day long that such a parenting style is detrimental to the child, both from a safety standpoint as we are discussing here, and from a growing-into-a-mature-adult standpoint.

entire post quoted for truth

Amen!! I couldnt have said it better myself (which is why my post was so short lol)

Halanna · 06-03-2009, 04:15 AM

Very interesting replies.

I still think the same way though. When it comes to the internet there is zero privacy to be had. He can travel where he wishes with the knowledge that if I find him engaging in something he knows he shouldn't be doing, that is the end of the internet.

Other areas I think privacy is earned. If he had a diary or journal, I would never read it. I would want him to have the freedom to express his thoughts to himself without fear of my reaction. I wouldn't do a room or backpack search unless his behavior warranted it. I have no desire to go pawing through his things for no reason. I don't listen to his phone conversations, or read his text messages. I get his cell phone bill every month anyway, I can see who is calling him and who he is calling.

Really? They don't use myspace anymore? He'll be disappointed to find he's behind the times.

high_jinx · 06-08-2009, 01:58 PM

as someone who walked all over my parents from the age of 12 on, i have zero interest in being any kind of friend to any kids i have till they're at least in their mid 20's. all i want before that is for them to respect the rules i make and fear the consequences of going against the rules enough to not do it. between the euphoria of youth and the bat-shit crazy hormones running through adolescence and the Ass media and internet out there, i feel the need to protect them from themselves even more than the rest of the world. sure, people do plenty of sketchy and foolish things their whole lives, but once you make it to your early 20's, there is at least an inkling of self preservation and awareness of consequences that isn't there when you're at the end of the teens.

shakran · 06-08-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halanna

Very interesting replies.

I still think the same way though. When it comes to the internet there is zero privacy to be had. He can travel where he wishes with the knowledge that if I find him engaging in something he knows he shouldn't be doing, that is the end of the internet.

Yep

Quote:

Other areas I think privacy is earned. If he had a diary or journal, I would never read it. I would want him to have the freedom to express his thoughts to himself without fear of my reaction. I wouldn't do a room or backpack search unless his behavior warranted it. I have no desire to go pawing through his things for no reason. I don't listen to his phone conversations, or read his text messages. I get his cell phone bill every month anyway, I can see who is calling him and who he is calling.

I wouldn't read the kid's diary either, though I reserve the right to. I would only do so if I had very significant evidence that he was recording plans to do something illegal - i.e. plans to shoot up his school. Same with the room/backpack search. Hell, I'm sure it's the case with you, that most teenager's rooms are somewhat of a biohazard. I wouldn't want to search it without just cause from a personal safety standpoint

As for cell phone, I don't have that issue. I don't see the need for a kid to have a cell phone. If he's going somewhere other than school or a friend's house (where presumably there will be a phone should he need to call me) then he can borrow mine if it is deemed necessary. The last thing teenagers need is another distraction from schoolwork or the highway by having a phone hanging off their ear 24/7.

Quote:

Really? They don't use myspace anymore? He'll be disappointed to find he's behind the times.

Just means your kid is less ADD than the average of the internet

Shauk · 06-08-2009, 02:47 PM

I consider myself a 1st generation internet child. Back when I was growing up on the internet, we didn't have myspace, we had IRC chat rooms, which were far more "wild west" in terms of supervision and allowances, side by side supervision didn't achieve much, I just wouldn't go to sites I wasn't certain my dad would approve of while he was around, and when he wasn't around, I might go dig up some noodie pictures of pamela anderson cuz I mean, she was all the rage in the baywatch era. "protect the children" says the government and the conservative types, me? I just wanted to see some naked women.

My communication usually was limited to finding teen oriented chat rooms, but to be quite honest, most of that interaction was questionable, you never knew who you were talking to, pictures on the internet were rarer, digital cameras were expensive and new, scanners were also expensive and clunky to use.

Myspace is a little different, it tries to protect people below a certain age now with restricting profile viewing to friends only.

That said, I'm glad my parents treated me like a young adult, instead of like a "kid" that required checking up on, I guess it depends on what kind of relationship you have with your kid

You can try to justify it as just "checking up on them" but it is an invasion of privacy on a moral level. Parents get an overly complex sense of ownership and entitlement to their children and honestly, it's the parents role to provide adequate care for children, and to equip them with the means necessary to become an adult.

What kind of moral value do you impart by acting distrustful, or insecure in the effectiveness of raising your child to the point that you need to invade their privacy to sleep well at night? fast forward 10 years when your child is a full grown adult, growing up with a distrustful parent is almost just like being told that you're untrustworthy, that you're a liar, that you're not worthy of the basic respect of privacy. Had my parents treated me like that, I doubt I'd have anything to do with them.

up to 15 is ok, by then they should be emotionally ready to deal with their vices and temptations on the virtues you imparted upon them during the more formulate times of their life.

hrm, heres a fun read too *shrug*
4.07: The Rights of Kids in the Digital Age

shakran · 06-08-2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

up to 15 is ok, by then they should be emotionally ready to deal with their vices and temptations on the virtues you imparted upon them during the more formulate times of their life.

Would you then advocate that a 16 year old should be allowed to drink, smoke, and that statutory rape laws should be overturned, since the whole reason they exist is that minors are assumed to not be mentally or emotionally ready to deal with such things

Slippery slope.

Shauk · 06-08-2009, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

Would you then advocate that a 16 year old should be allowed to drink, smoke, and that statutory rape laws should be overturned, since the whole reason they exist is that minors are assumed to not be mentally or emotionally ready to deal with such things

Slippery slope.

I would, simply because kids grow up a lot faster in this life & times than they did when these guidelines were established.

But i'm not really advocating that here, I'm advocating that they can answer to the law like anyone else, but there is nothing that says obeying the laws means giving up your privacy.

thespian86 · 06-08-2009, 05:53 PM

It's a fine line to walk like Mart said.

I think it's completely relative to the kid. Freedom in areas they seem ready to take on, etc.

Charlatan · 06-08-2009, 06:10 PM

My kids have no right to privacy but I do give my son his space. That said, I have no trouble logging into his email, facebook account, etc. To me, it is no different from wanting to meet his friends so I know who he's hanging around with.

Lindy · 06-12-2009, 10:29 AM

My Dad made it clear to me that, while he was not going to just barge in at any old time, I had no "right" to privacy. That my privacy was a privilege, and was based on my being trustworthy and responsible. One time when I got caught and pulled the old "You don't trust me" line he just said (in his annoyingly calm way) that I myself had just proven that I didn't deserve that trust, so he wasn't going to just give it to me.
And then he would quote Ronald Reagan (who was president when I was in middle school) who said "Trust, but verify" and Dad always reserved the right to verify.

Lindy

dlish · 06-13-2009, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

I consider myself a 1st generation internet child. Back when I was growing up on the internet, we didn't have myspace, we had IRC chat rooms, which were far more "wild west" in terms of supervision and allowances, side by side supervision didn't achieve much, I just wouldn't go to sites I wasn't certain my dad would approve of while he was around, and when he wasn't around, I might go dig up some noodie pictures of pamela anderson cuz I mean, she was all the rage in the baywatch era. "protect the children" says the government and the conservative types, me? I just wanted to see some naked women.

My communication usually was limited to finding teen oriented chat rooms, but to be quite honest, most of that interaction was questionable, you never knew who you were talking to, pictures on the internet were rarer, digital cameras were expensive and new, scanners were also expensive and clunky to use.

Myspace is a little different, it tries to protect people below a certain age now with restricting profile viewing to friends only.

That said, I'm glad my parents treated me like a young adult, instead of like a "kid" that required checking up on, I guess it depends on what kind of relationship you have with your kid

You can try to justify it as just "checking up on them" but it is an invasion of privacy on a moral level. Parents get an overly complex sense of ownership and entitlement to their children and honestly, it's the parents role to provide adequate care for children, and to equip them with the means necessary to become an adult.

What kind of moral value do you impart by acting distrustful, or insecure in the effectiveness of raising your child to the point that you need to invade their privacy to sleep well at night? fast forward 10 years when your child is a full grown adult, growing up with a distrustful parent is almost just like being told that you're untrustworthy, that you're a liar, that you're not worthy of the basic respect of privacy. Had my parents treated me like that, I doubt I'd have anything to do with them.

up to 15 is ok, by then they should be emotionally ready to deal with their vices and temptations on the virtues you imparted upon them during the more formulate times of their life.

hrm, heres a fun read too *shrug*
4.07: The Rights of Kids in the Digital Age

dont mean to put you on the spot here shauk, but if i recall correctly, wasnt your old man checking your posts here on TFP a while ago?

wugglywoo · 06-21-2009, 05:32 AM

My parents didn't let me get internet until I was 17, though they would never have considered e-stalking me (even if they weren't useless with technology!).

I'm sure they'd have wanted to know what I was doing online if they were at all suspicious of me, but there's a difference between knowing your child is using MySpace and hacking into their account and reading private conversations. What's the worst that could even happen from using MySpace? Why not just ask them what they're doing? Or create an account yourself and add them as a friend?

Of course, if you have reason to not trust them, well, maybe it is reasonable enough thing to do. My parents, as paranoid about paedophiles and all the disturbing stuff you find on the net as they were, trusted me. If they had been a little less useless with technology they'd probably have put child-protecting controls on the computer, limiting me from accessing certain things, but just like they didn't flick though the text messages on my phone, they'd never have considered accessing my online accounts. I don't see any difference between reading MySpace messages and text messages.

Although I am 22 and not 16, I was recently horrified to find out either my sister or father had been reading my blog for months. I don't know how they found it, but this horrified me enough. Would you read your son's blog since you wouldn't read a handwritten diary? Or is that totally different just because the blog is online?

Maybe I'm defensive about teenager's rights to privacy because I'm not long past the teen phase/live with my parents...but I think there's a big difference between privacy and keeping them in line.

On a more lighthearted note, I hope you appear offline when logging into his MSN. Nothing is worse than accidentally starting a conversation with your friend's mother. So so awkward. >_<

jewels · 06-21-2009, 06:31 AM

My parents always respected my privacy when I was growing up hence I learned to always respect others'. Granted, I was an out-of-control teen, but they wouldn't have known unless they followed me everywhere I went. Although I made my mistakes, having their trust allowed me to turn myself around when the time was right for me.

I'm "friends" with my teens on their myspace, facebook, tumblr etc, so I can see whatever their friends see. We have ongoing dialog, so I know what issues they deal with and although I'm not deluded enough to think they don't have their secrets (and so they should), they come to me for the important stuff. I've given them the tools to make smart decisions and they know they have my trust. I believe that the value of my trust trumps security and keeps them honest. They understand that having my trust ensures they must take personal responsibility for their actions.

I've never sheltered them from the real world; they're always learning about consequences. I'm not sure what's meant by "doing what they shouldn't be doing", but isn't that what growing up is all about? When they were younger, I would monitor them when they were online and I still will take a peek over their shoulders, just so they know that I have the option.

06-02-2009, 07:11 AM	#1 (permalink)
Halanna Insane Location: Over the rainbow . .	Teens and Privacy So, I've been thinking about this topic this morning. It came up during a visit with family yesterday. During this little family soiree, someone mentioned their teenage daughter and myspace. How they are concerned, don't like it, are worried, you get the general track this was on. The answer was obvious to me, or so it appeared. Log onto the myspace account when she's not home to check out what's going on and/or physically go there and remove the page, and not allow her to have a myspace account. Simple. The response to my saying this was . . unexpected. After saying the above and relating how I check what my son (he's 16) is doing online on a semi-regular basis, have all his username/passwords, etc. I was accused of not respecting my son's privacy. (that sounds really harsh, this wasn't a knock down drag out, just a discussion) My husband of course agrees with me. We were like, privacy? He doesn't need privacy. There isn't anything that he should be doing that we can't see. We don't abuse it, I'm not logging into his MSN Messenger every day, or his myspace. Just once in a while, usually when I think about it, which isn't that often. It's more that he knows I could at any time. So, this person is concerned about her daughter's myspace account, but won't do anything about it because it's an invasion of her privacy. Whereas, it would appear I am being too overprotective and invading my son's privacy, but I don't have any concerns about him being online, I can see for myself that he's not doing anything that he shouldn't. So where does the teen's right to privacy end and the parent's right to protect begin? edit: beecuse I spel gud Last edited by Halanna; 06-02-2009 at 07:20 AM..

06-02-2009, 07:24 AM	#2 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	my teen's right to privacy starts when she turns 18 and I am legally not responsible for her anymore...she knew from the beginning that I require all passwords to her social networking accounts and that I will check them at any time..this doesnt mean Im a snoop, I do understand teens want to complain about mom lol If she started exhibiting behavior that I thought needed checking into I would most certainly do it, any parent that is more concerned with being a PARENT over being a friend would __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

06-02-2009, 07:26 AM	#3 (permalink)
genuinegirly Eat your vegetables Super Moderator Location: Arabidopsis-ville	When the child turns 18, they have a right to privacy. Anytime before that and they're not adults. I can see how your response would be contraversial, but as long as you and your husband agree on the methods you are using to raise your children, I see no problems. Edit: nice to see that we're on the same page, Shani __________________ "Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

06-02-2009, 07:45 AM	#4 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Isn't the hotter issue confidentiality and access to contraceptives? Myspace aside (I believe teens don't have absolute rights to privacy in that regard), I believe teens deserve a certain amount of privacy in issues of birth control and access to the essentials for practicing safe sex. The foremost problem I see is when a parent's belief system would trump reason when it comes to this sort of thing. The role of public health is a wider matter related to this. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 06-02-2009 at 07:48 AM..

06-02-2009, 08:28 AM	#6 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Wow! I see a marked attitude shift here. Some six or seven years ago, I was soundly bashed for taking the stance that teenagers should neither expect nor receive total privacy. I advocated periodic room searches, "friend" screening and internet surveilance. I took the stance that as long as I was responsible for my teenager, then I had the absolute right to know exactly what she was doing at all times. My views were not popular, to say the least. I wonder what will happen here when some of the younger members start to weigh in? __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

06-02-2009, 07:45 AM	#5 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	Agreed, ladies. Kids do stupid things. Arguing that they should have the privacy to do them is really just an excuse for being too lazy to actually be a parent. It's much easier to not go through all the work of checking up on your kid by claiming the kid has a right to privacy than it is to face criticism when you say what you really mean, which is "I don't feel like doing the work that I agreed to do when I took on the job as parent."

06-02-2009, 08:29 AM	#7 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	You are my idea of a good dad BOR __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

06-02-2009, 09:27 AM	#8 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	I seem to vaguely recall that, Mr. O'Rights. My theory is that the thread is still young, and the privacy advocates haven't found it yet. Patience Plus, in those 6 or 7 years the number of reported incidents of child molesters using social sites on the net to find victims has gone up, which I'm sure has shifted some people's attitudes. My argument hasn't really changed though. If the kid wants privacy, he can sue for emancipation, move out, and get his own damned place. As long as I the hypothetical parent am responsible for him, and Paying, for him. . .His life is open to inspection.

06-02-2009, 09:33 AM	#9 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Could be that they've grown the fuck up and realized that they don't know everything. But at least they've stopped playing ball on my lawn. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

06-02-2009, 09:43 AM	#10 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	It's a balancing act. Too little privacy, and the child doesn't learn independence. Too much runs the risk of the kid doing the stupid things kids do. You can't protect your teenager from everything out in the Big Bad World. Education and openness are effective tools and need to be employed alongside supervision. Age plays a role too. The teenage years a a time of rapid development. What's appropriate for a 14 year old is very different to what's appropriate for a 17 year old. I'm of the opinion that by the time they're old enough to drive you've probably missed out on your chance to teach them the proper habits to protect themselves anyway. I don't agree with the idea that children don't deserve any privacy. I think it's an issue of trust, and I think showing your children you trust them is key to having a good relationship and helping your child learn to make the right decisions on their own. The flip side of that, of course, is that trust must be earned. But no. Checking and/or removing Myspace isn't a real privacy violation, especially if Myspace is a continued source of trouble. Rights come with responsibilities. Don't live up to the responsibilities, lose the right. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

06-02-2009, 09:58 AM	#12 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	Useless personal anecdote: My mother never tried to monitor or limit my online freedom. By the time we got internet into the home, I was far more savvy in such things than she is to this day, and my knowledge increased rapidly when given access to the wellspring of information that is the online world. Indeed, even out in RL (as the kids are calling it these days) I didn't have a lot of restrictions, and was pretty much free to come and go as I pleased within reasonable limits from about 14 on, so long as she knew where I was. I like to think I turned out more or less okay, because I'd been raised in an environment valuing respect and responsibility. Eventually you have to trust your kids to make the right decisions for themselves. The teenage years are when the limits should be expanded, and the pace at which that should occur is highly context-sensitive. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

06-02-2009, 10:01 AM	#13 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Im almost kinda glad the internet wasnt around when I was a teenager, Id hate to have seen how my parents handled it with me __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

06-02-2009, 12:07 PM	#15 (permalink)
lostgirl lightform Location: Edge of the deep green sea	All I know is that when my niece had to let her dad see her Myspace, she just created a new account he doesn't know about. I am the only family member she trusts enough to share everything with. I make sure she stays out of trouble, give her advice, and she knows she can trust me to not betray her confidence. __________________ We're about to go through the crucible, but we'll come out the other side. We always arise from our own ashes. Everything returns later in its changed form. - Children of Dune

06-02-2009, 12:23 PM	#16 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	I hope my brother can be that way for my (eventual, currently-theoretical) kids, lostgirl. I'd love to be that way for my (actual, non-theoretical) nephew, when the time comes. I think kids need SOME boundary-free areas. I think they need to explore, they need to skin their knees. Otherwise they end up out in the world expecting everything to be padded to complete safety the way their playground was. Have you SEEN playgrounds these days? Appalling. I'm going to get my kid a stick off a tree and tell them to go play in the creek. The woman who let her 12-year-old take the subway home alone is my hero. They need to learn that the world is basically safe if they have their head on straight. I intend to protect them from what real dangers are out there--and even more than that, to protect the world from the worst of their childishness. That's my strategy when they're young. I haven't made my plan for when they're teens.

06-02-2009, 12:33 PM	#17 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I'm in the toddler phase with both boys. Max is mostly not an immediate danger to himself (despite having run straight into the lip of our kitchen island on purpose), but he has a friend who is 2 months younger that doesn't understand that he can't run into the street, which is scary as hell. It almost happened this weekend while they were visiting. And Drew is a full-blown danger to himself. If I let him, he'd sit under our deck and chew on river rock. Seriously. One of our lazy habits is to allow Max to have computer time - with a timer and for 15 minutes at a time. We've got what he calls his "computer set" that has basically what amount to action figures that, when properly plugged into the base, will take him to specific sites in a proprietary brouser. Places like Thomas the Tank Engine, Dragon Tails, Fisher Price, etc. that have videos and games he can play. It's all fine for an under-5-year-old. But what he really likes is Youtube videos, usually Blue Angels flights, snowplow trains (don't ask), A-10 Warthogs, Calliou and Justin Roberts (a kids singer). But he can get to some pretty graphic stuff in just a few clicks given the right starting point. There's a whole culture on Youtube that hates Calliou (probably with reason) and have created a bunch of content that's not at all appropriate for a 3-year old. When he's watching Youtube, the mouse sits in a place that he can't reach. He gets to pick the next video, but not without one of us ok'ing it first. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

06-02-2009, 01:40 PM	#20 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	My kids are still young.. but when they get older I plan to try and find that fine line that every parent dreams of finding.. you know the one where you're a friend and a parent. I was brought up in a military household and privacy was not in great supply. I think that while I will monitor what my kids do, I can't expect them to become anything unless they fail and try things on their own. success is bred by failure, not by coddling. my son uses the computer and he's 4. naturally, he only goes to noggin and thomas and friends. He's limited on his computer time and his television time. Of course if they are around and mommy and daddy want to "wrestle" then I don't mind a bit of extra TV time

06-03-2009, 04:15 AM	#24 (permalink)
Halanna Insane Location: Over the rainbow . .	Very interesting replies. I still think the same way though. When it comes to the internet there is zero privacy to be had. He can travel where he wishes with the knowledge that if I find him engaging in something he knows he shouldn't be doing, that is the end of the internet. Other areas I think privacy is earned. If he had a diary or journal, I would never read it. I would want him to have the freedom to express his thoughts to himself without fear of my reaction. I wouldn't do a room or backpack search unless his behavior warranted it. I have no desire to go pawing through his things for no reason. I don't listen to his phone conversations, or read his text messages. I get his cell phone bill every month anyway, I can see who is calling him and who he is calling. Really? They don't use myspace anymore? He'll be disappointed to find he's behind the times.

06-08-2009, 01:58 PM	#25 (permalink)
high_jinx Psycho Location: venice beach, ca	as someone who walked all over my parents from the age of 12 on, i have zero interest in being any kind of friend to any kids i have till they're at least in their mid 20's. all i want before that is for them to respect the rules i make and fear the consequences of going against the rules enough to not do it. between the euphoria of youth and the bat-shit crazy hormones running through adolescence and the Ass media and internet out there, i feel the need to protect them from themselves even more than the rest of the world. sure, people do plenty of sketchy and foolish things their whole lives, but once you make it to your early 20's, there is at least an inkling of self preservation and awareness of consequences that isn't there when you're at the end of the teens. __________________ -my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

06-08-2009, 02:47 PM	#27 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	I consider myself a 1st generation internet child. Back when I was growing up on the internet, we didn't have myspace, we had IRC chat rooms, which were far more "wild west" in terms of supervision and allowances, side by side supervision didn't achieve much, I just wouldn't go to sites I wasn't certain my dad would approve of while he was around, and when he wasn't around, I might go dig up some noodie pictures of pamela anderson cuz I mean, she was all the rage in the baywatch era. "protect the children" says the government and the conservative types, me? I just wanted to see some naked women. My communication usually was limited to finding teen oriented chat rooms, but to be quite honest, most of that interaction was questionable, you never knew who you were talking to, pictures on the internet were rarer, digital cameras were expensive and new, scanners were also expensive and clunky to use. Myspace is a little different, it tries to protect people below a certain age now with restricting profile viewing to friends only. That said, I'm glad my parents treated me like a young adult, instead of like a "kid" that required checking up on, I guess it depends on what kind of relationship you have with your kid You can try to justify it as just "checking up on them" but it is an invasion of privacy on a moral level. Parents get an overly complex sense of ownership and entitlement to their children and honestly, it's the parents role to provide adequate care for children, and to equip them with the means necessary to become an adult. What kind of moral value do you impart by acting distrustful, or insecure in the effectiveness of raising your child to the point that you need to invade their privacy to sleep well at night? fast forward 10 years when your child is a full grown adult, growing up with a distrustful parent is almost just like being told that you're untrustworthy, that you're a liar, that you're not worthy of the basic respect of privacy. Had my parents treated me like that, I doubt I'd have anything to do with them. up to 15 is ok, by then they should be emotionally ready to deal with their vices and temptations on the virtues you imparted upon them during the more formulate times of their life. hrm, heres a fun read too shrug 4.07: The Rights of Kids in the Digital Age

06-08-2009, 05:53 PM	#30 (permalink)
thespian86 change is hard. Location: the green room.	It's a fine line to walk like Mart said. I think it's completely relative to the kid. Freedom in areas they seem ready to take on, etc. __________________ EX: Whats new? ME: I officially love coffee more then you now. EX: uh... ME: So, not much.

06-08-2009, 06:10 PM	#31 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	My kids have no right to privacy but I do give my son his space. That said, I have no trouble logging into his email, facebook account, etc. To me, it is no different from wanting to meet his friends so I know who he's hanging around with. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-12-2009, 10:29 AM	#32 (permalink)
Lindy Junkie	My Dad made it clear to me that, while he was not going to just barge in at any old time, I had no "right" to privacy. That my privacy was a privilege, and was based on my being trustworthy and responsible. One time when I got caught and pulled the old "You don't trust me" line he just said (in his annoyingly calm way) that I myself had just proven that I didn't deserve that trust, so he wasn't going to just give it to me. And then he would quote Ronald Reagan (who was president when I was in middle school) who said "Trust, but verify" and Dad always reserved the right to verify. Lindy

06-21-2009, 05:32 AM	#34 (permalink)
wugglywoo Upright Location: UK	My parents didn't let me get internet until I was 17, though they would never have considered e-stalking me (even if they weren't useless with technology!). I'm sure they'd have wanted to know what I was doing online if they were at all suspicious of me, but there's a difference between knowing your child is using MySpace and hacking into their account and reading private conversations. What's the worst that could even happen from using MySpace? Why not just ask them what they're doing? Or create an account yourself and add them as a friend? Of course, if you have reason to not trust them, well, maybe it is reasonable enough thing to do. My parents, as paranoid about paedophiles and all the disturbing stuff you find on the net as they were, trusted me. If they had been a little less useless with technology they'd probably have put child-protecting controls on the computer, limiting me from accessing certain things, but just like they didn't flick though the text messages on my phone, they'd never have considered accessing my online accounts. I don't see any difference between reading MySpace messages and text messages. Although I am 22 and not 16, I was recently horrified to find out either my sister or father had been reading my blog for months. I don't know how they found it, but this horrified me enough. Would you read your son's blog since you wouldn't read a handwritten diary? Or is that totally different just because the blog is online? Maybe I'm defensive about teenager's rights to privacy because I'm not long past the teen phase/live with my parents...but I think there's a big difference between privacy and keeping them in line. On a more lighthearted note, I hope you appear offline when logging into his MSN. Nothing is worse than accidentally starting a conversation with your friend's mother. So so awkward. >_<

06-21-2009, 06:31 AM	#35 (permalink)
jewels Eponymous Location: Central Central Florida	My parents always respected my privacy when I was growing up hence I learned to always respect others'. Granted, I was an out-of-control teen, but they wouldn't have known unless they followed me everywhere I went. Although I made my mistakes, having their trust allowed me to turn myself around when the time was right for me. I'm "friends" with my teens on their myspace, facebook, tumblr etc, so I can see whatever their friends see. We have ongoing dialog, so I know what issues they deal with and although I'm not deluded enough to think they don't have their secrets (and so they should), they come to me for the important stuff. I've given them the tools to make smart decisions and they know they have my trust. I believe that the value of my trust trumps security and keeps them honest. They understand that having my trust ensures they must take personal responsibility for their actions. I've never sheltered them from the real world; they're always learning about consequences. I'm not sure what's meant by "doing what they shouldn't be doing", but isn't that what growing up is all about? When they were younger, I would monitor them when they were online and I still will take a peek over their shoulders, just so they know that I have the option. __________________ We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess. Mark Twain