Jimellow

As I transition to free weight lifting, I've come up with a few questions.. I received a lot of great info in my chest exercises thread, and now I've come up with a few general questions I'd appreciate some feedback on. This time I will have enough to warrant a numbered list.

1) Is it a bad idea to variate chest and back, leaving only a day between each? Right now I want to focus on building the strength in my back, and especially, chest. I work my legs via cardio, and am content with where they are. As an example: I will work my chest on Monday, then do back on Tuesday, and chest again on Wednesday, etc.

2) My muscles aren't fatigued to the point where I am unable to work them out every other day. Should they be? On the day I lift, I lift until my muscles are fatigued and I can't do any more reps, literally. Yet I am not experiencing lasting fatigue that prevents me from working the same muscles two days later. Is this a concern, or is my body just recuperating fast enough to allow me to work the muscles without extended breaks?

3) When doing incline bench type activities, what is the ideal angle the bench should be at? The back of the bench has the capability to be adjusted anywhere from nearly flat, to almost vertical. For an incline press, what's the ideal setting?

As I come up with more questions, I'll likely list them here. For today, those are my three main concerns that I'd appreciate feedback on.

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Willravel

Whoa, numbers.

1) It's okay, but bear in mind that working your chest works your back and visa versa. I personally like to separate them.

2) This is really going to be subjective. I like to work out until I am ruined for about a day, but some trainers don't like that. Do you need your arms for your work? Don't kill them.

3) I like to change this every time. Sometimes it's at a 45, sometimes a lot less.

Baraka_Guru

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Tully Mars

I usually rotate arms and chest one day, legs the next, then back and abs. Then a day of nothing but aerobics.
I separate the chest and back by a day of legs for the same reason Will noted.

As for incline, the gym I currently use has the incline and decline on everything welded in place. What degree is it? beat the hell out of me.

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highthief

I don't believe 48 hours rest is enough if you are trying to get stronger/bigger - the muscle actually breaks down and tears during vigorous exercise and needs time in which to recover (and in that time, grow bigger and stronger. I would maintain 4-7 days rest between major muscles.

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Tully Mars

I agree. Part of my reasoning in my work out is to give me three full days before going back at a muscle group. But at my age, 45, I'm not going to be building much anymore. Push as hard as I want, take a week off- doesn't matter I don't see gains like I did even 10 years ago. At this point I'm basically in maintenance mode, IMHO.

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Jimellow

Generally I will do three sets of 10, maybe 12, and possibly add a set if the muscles can handle it. I also might go back to the same exercise later in the work out if the muscles are able to bear another. I generally explode upwards, and lower/release slowly.

The muscles are being worked, and they're certainly fatigued for the duration of the work out, but I'm not fatigued to the extent that I can't work them to the exact same degree two days later.

Generally, I equate being sore to the muscles being worked, and ideally developed. As for whether that is valid or not, I am not sure. However, if I am able to go to the gym in two days and work the same muscles I did prior, with the same amount of weights and repetitions, than wouldn't it be worthwhile to do so?

Also, I am curious how that practice wouldn't make me stronger. I am still working the muscles, but am I wasting my time since they don't have enough rest? And even if I am wasting my time, is it detrimental to do it anyway?

I eat healthily and am making an effort to eat the recommended amount of protein for my body weight (116 grams per day), but I feel I should be sorer than I am; because I consider soreness to be one of the prime indicators of muscles being used, and developed.

Thanks for the replies and please continue to contribute if you have thoughts or suggestions.

__________________
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Willravel

Pff. 45 is the new 30. If you wanted to really build, you could. You'd have to work harder, sure, but I'm sure someone who's been in shape for decades has a good foundation for getting in even better health. I'm hoping to be Superman by the time I'm 45.

Baraka_Guru

Don't bother going back to the same exercise; you're probably wasting your time, and could be overtraining. If you can do 2 to 4 sets of 8 to 12 reps to muscle failure, then you are done. Do an isolation exercise maybe after that, but your muscle group is done. Stop and look forward to recovery. Going back to an exercise later in your workout is basically using a damaged muscle, which could be detrimental. Just because your muscles can do it, it doesn't mean it hasn't been adequately trained. A brief rest period will always allow your muscles to recover to do more work, but going back to do so could strain them farther than what's beneficial.

You might need to add more load to your workouts. (See below.)

Muscle soreness is not a good measure of progress!

Not necessarily. Everyone is different, but your muscles can take anywhere up to seven days to adequately recover, especially after heavy work. It is generally safe to work the same muscle after 48 to 72 hours, but this is not always optimal. It depends on your program.

The risk is you could end up overtraining. Overtraining is a result of ongoing stress based on inadequate recovery. It affects everything from muscle fibers, to stress levels, to your immune system. One of the easiest ways to catch a cold or flu is to overtrain. Let me tell you, there's nothing that can put your program off course faster than getting sick. The benefit to letting your muscles recover over longer periods of time is that you ensure the new fibers have grown to where they need to grow and are ready to be put to work. In my own regular routine (which I've just started up again after a long hiatus), I work each major muscle group as a focus only once per week. I do heavy enough workouts that I'm happy to give them that amount of rest. I've also read an article that suggests 6 to 7 days is what your fibers need for optimal recovery. Taking shortcuts might grow more fibers, but you do so at the risk of overtraining. This is something I'd leave to the professionals.

You have a reasonable protein intake, just be sure you consume that over the course of the day and not all at once. And I will repeat: Muscle soreness is not a good indicator of progress! When I first begin a program, I do feel some soreness and tightness, but once I get into the swing of things, I can absolutely load up heavy on a workout beyond my previous max and the next two days I will barely feel a thing. But my muscles grow just fine. Each week, the same thing. I increase my strength by blasting through my previous week's max, yet no actual soreness. On the occasion where I do feel soreness, it's because I did something wrong: either bad form with a heavy weight, or I tried to push myself too far and I compromised the timing of my lifts. I equate "soreness" with a slight injury. You don't want to be sore, but you do want to make sure you're getting stronger. Your advancement with weights and reps will tell you your progress.

As for your lift, a good timing for lift is 1 second up and 2 seconds down. This isn't the only way, but it is a good basis. You mentioned you "explode" up, which can be good, just be sure not to jerk the weight, as you could cause a tendon injury, which is never fun.

If you feel you aren't adequately maxing out your muscles, add more weight, add more sets. If you get to 12 reps on 3 sets, your weight is too low; it's time to boost it up. Drop your reps to 6 and your sets to 1 or 2 if you have to. If you keep going to failure, you should be doing fine. But getting too high on your reps might mean you're building muscular endurance rather than strength, which would explain why you can easily do the same workout 2 days later. Give heavy weight/lower reps a try.

Woah, that's lots. I hope I didn't ramble on too much. See how that is and let me know if you have any questions.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Jimellow

Really great stuff, all of it. Thanks very much.

In regards to overtraining... Is there a way to tell if I am? I don't enjoy lifting more than less because it creates more fibers, or makes me stronger faster; I just enjoy going to the gym and and have been dedicated and disciplined enough to go every day for a year or more. That being said, I definitely do want to get stronger, and I am noticing improvement, even in the short time since I've made the transition from running/cycling to lifting.

Thus, it's an adjustment for me to not work a given muscle group if I'm able to without lessening the weight load. Even if lifting on less rest than more was a "waste" I'd still likely do it, but if it can be detrimental, then I obviously I'll have to consider some changes.

I will try adding more weight and lowering the reps, but I am curious if there is a clear indicator of what my muscle recovery time is? Are there things I can do or look out for to see if muscle recovery is longer or shorter?

Furthermore, can muscle recovery duration be changed/altered or is it a static figure influenced heavily by genetics?

Thanks for the good information. I appreciate it.

__________________
Desperation is no excuse for lowering one's standards.

Baraka_Guru

Signs of overtraining include crankiness, general fatigue, prone to getting colds or flu, a lack of desire to do your workout, and things such as that. You can avoid overtraining by following this guideline: Rest a muscle group at least 48 hours before training it again. It might require up to 72 hours before it is ready for another go. People are different, so you'll need to find your limits. Another way to avoid overtraining is to take a complete week off of weightlifting every 1.5 to 2 months. This week of rest will ensure your muscles have the opportunity to fully recover and to take a bit of a break. This will avoid long-term risks of wearing yourself down. Overtraining can be a common problem, whereas undertraining isn't an issue if you understand muscular failure and weekly cycles of recovery.

Consider the change. One thing to keep in mind is that you don't get stronger when you work out; you get stronger when you rest. Inadequate rest and nutrition will make your workouts a waste of time.

You will have a good idea after the initial 48-hour period. If your muscles feel a bit tight, or sore, even, then you probably need a bit more recovery time. Especially once you boost up your load, your muscles will go through a bit more of a shock than they're used to. Whenever you up your routine, pay careful attention to your recovery rate. When in doubt, give yourself an extra day's rest. Just work harder to make up for it.

A good way to gauge your progress is to start with a heavier weight where you can do around 3 sets of 6 reps, the final rep to failure. Progress week to week by trying to up the reps until you can do 3 sets of 12 reps, the final rep to failure. This process is one of the best ways of measuring your increasing strength. There is nothing more satisfying than knowing you can lift a particular weight twice as much as you could just a few weeks ago. If, however, you find yourself stagnating, it could indicate that you aren't giving yourself enough recovery time or you are overtraining. You should be able to increase the number of reps gradually week to week. If you find you cannot, you might be doing something wrong.

Genetics plays a huge role. Recovery is based on metabolism, level of protein synthesis, blood cells, carriers, etc. There is a lot going on in your body. While genetics dictates the efficiency of these things, diet and rest are major contributing factors as well. You will recover faster with adequate levels of protein, carbohydrates, fats, (calories in general). Just be sure to balance them out properly and to consume quality nutrients.

Your recovery is also largely dependent on the amount of sleep you get. Remember, you don't grow stronger in the gym; by far, most of your strength will come to you in your sleep, when your body does most of its cell growth and recovery. You should aim for at least 7.5 hours of sleep every night. Some people benefit from more, especially heavy trainers. In these cases, 8 or 8.5 might be optimal. We are all different; experiment for yourself. Some can get by with 5 or 6 hours, and some need up to 10 hours. But very few people can get by optimally with less than 7.5 hours each night.

Hey, I'm glad to help you out. I wouldn't want you to waste your time and efforts needlessly. There are many myths and misconceptions out there about these things, and I've done lots of reading and have personal experience. I feel I should share the wealth.

Feel free to ask about anything, but also don't hesitate to do your own research to confirm what I've (or anyone else) suggested. You are your own advocate for personal health.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Nimetic

I've prefer a push-pull method. For myself that is.

I envision myself pushing, or pulling a car (probably without effect). I do the push muscles on one day, then pull muscles on the next day. Then I take a few days off. Of course... part of the classification is artificial/arbitrary and mostly non-scientific. And workout length is a factor, so I'll give you my list below.

Bear in mind... I'm NOT claiming that this is optimal. Only that I personally like it as a method, for me. Ditto workout length. Once I've hauled my arse to the gym and changed clothes... I prefer a longish workout 1.5-2.5h+. It may not be optimum, but when the body is up to it, it becomes enjoyable. Also, if I'm taking creatine supplements, I tend to workout for longer. Ditto if I'm in a training phase where I'm including higher-rep ranges. It's not that the high reps take longer, but they hurt more and I end up taking longer pause breaks.

Pull
- back (hi and low rows, pulldowns), quads, calves, biceps (every second workout)
Push
- chest, shoulders, abs, hams, glutes, triceps (every second workout)


It can take me a fair while to recover (3d+) - so rather than pre-guess it, I simply wait until the soreness goes. Day of week is not relevant unless imposed by work/wife/GF.

The other problem is that many of the leg movements use lower back. For example, I include stiff-leg deadlifts on the ham/glutes session. I found that I need to get the second workout day done next day after the first, before I have too much delayed onset soreness, which I always get.

On inclines BTW, I go for about 20-30 degrees. Otherwise (as I recall it) this hits the front delts more. And I have other exercises for delts.

Tully Mars

Well a couple years back I suffered an injury to my leg and foot. In a period of three years I spent 12 and then 9 months flat on my back. At one point just being vertical was work, hard painful work. I had a Dr. tell me walking may not be an option again. He suggested one of those Batt. Op. scooter. Screw him, on gym days I walk five miles when I take a day off from the gym I walk ten.

I know before that happened I use to be able to bump up weight on any given exercise on a regular basis. Now if I add a couple pound every other month it's good. But I'm vertical and happy.

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cadre

Baraka's got the right advice for you. But just to add my experience:
I lift weights every third day and do cardio in between. It's weird but it's been working for me as of late. Since these days I am not lifting weights as often I am doing full body work outs each time. I thought I'd add here that I am a woman so my workouts are focused more on toning than bulking, cardio has been more useful lately for this.

But what I used to do was lift every other day and then I would switch upper body and lower body. I don't know that there's anything wrong with working your chest and back on opposite days but I think you'll have a better result by working them on the same days. In fact, the best way I've found to work a set of muscles is to do supersets. Basically, do sets of your back exercises in between sets of your chest exercises. This works to keep your heart rate up and if you're working the same muscles at all you'll notice a big difference in those.

As Baraka_Guru noted, if you're working out the same muscles to the point of exhaustion every other day you may be over training. The easiest way to tell is if you are sore, tired or not seeing improvement. My suggestion would be to work both your back and your chest on the same day and do that every other day. See if you notice a difference, I'm guessing you will. Definitely take a week off every couple months also. Also, make sure you're improving, if you're able to do more than 3 sets of 12 reps try more weight your exercises should always be a challenge.

And to address your last question, different angles are going to work the muscles differently. Start with 45 but change it up every once in a while, you'll notice some angles are going to be quite different.

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