abaya

In our building, we share an entrance/stairway with 3 other apartments. I didn't think the walls were that thin until we got some new neighbors upstairs with a young-ish kid (probably around 3-4 years old, no idea though). Scandinavians abstain from carpet, so there isn't much of a sound buffer between what we hear through our ceiling (a lot).

Now, since I pretty much work from home all day, every day, and there isn't a lot of other sound in the building... my ear has become attuned to everything going on upstairs. And that kid cries A LOT. Must be at least five times a day I hear it (not sure what gender) wailing about something or another, and it bloody gets on my nerves. The parents are ALWAYS soothing it, never scolding it (so Icelandic). Thing is--and I don't have much experience with kids, so forgive me if I am wrong--the crying sounds pretty fake. I've heard that sound before, and I remember crying like that myself as a kid, specifically to get attention.

So my question is, why do some parents tolerate the fake crying and indulge it, when clearly the kid is bullshitting, manipulative, and getting affirmed for those behaviors? I heard a friend of mine's kid doing that (he was 5) for some asinine reason (not getting his dessert or something), and I called him on it right there at the dinner table... I looked at him, smiled, and said, "That's not real crying." He stared blankly at me. At least it shut him up!

I swear, though, unless my future kid (not toddler or baby--I understand that they cry because they have no other way to communicate) falls down, is emotionally wounded, or is otherwise truly in pain or feeling stressed, I am not going to put up with that shit. There will be direct consequences for manipulative crying (if ignoring doesn't work), and they will happen immediately. Maybe I am being naive here, but it gets on my nerves so much... I just can't imagine any other response.

Parents? Thoughts?

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Daniel_

A lot of it is that some people are STUPID, and don't realise that their kid is faking.

My daughter (now 8) didn't cry much as a tiny kid, and I think a lot of that was because I would just say stuff like "why are you crying baby - you're not hurt" and she'd be stumped and stop.

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sapiens

I do think that some parents just have a higher tolerance for whining and crying. It may also be the case that the parents have been reinforcing manipulative crying (and the kids have been negatively reinforcing parental capitulation) for so long that it becomes hard to break.

It's easy to give into a kid occasionally in the short-term if you're busy or stressed. Once you've started down the path of partial reinforcement, the crying/tantrumming is often particularly resistant to extinction. Even if you muster the will to stop reinforcing it, you will have a period of intense crying/tantrumming (extinction burst) to look forward to that can be hard to endure.

Boy! I'm chock-full of jargon today!

I've never tolerated what I considered manipulative crying in my kids. So, I don't see it much.

Lasereth

Oh it drives me crazy also. I hate when little kids fake cry and they're not even showing emotion on their face or have tears. They're just making the crying sound. The moment they get their way they smile and act like it never happened -- because it didn't. Both of my little sisters used to do it and it still grates my skin when my youngest sister does it (though she doesn't do it often nowadays).

highthief

While kids do cry for attention - they're ability to communicate is less than that of adults, who many times cry for attention as well, although often in a more subtle manner - you are making a bit of a leap to say you know that is what this kid is doing when you don't seem to have any real knowledge of the family. Maybe the child cries for no reason, maybe the kid has some real issues of an emotional or health nature - you should try to find out a little more before getting upset about it.

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sapiens

I agree with highthief that it's hard to know what is motivating the crying in your particular case with so little info. That said, if I was trying to work and was frequently distracted by noisy neighbors, I would be upset too.

On a related topic: I know an adult who uses manipulative crying to skip to the front of airport security lines when she is running late.

Jinn

Because most people are terrible parents. The primary problem, however, is that they don't believe they are. Everything thinks they're a "good parent", just like they're a "good driver" and a "good student." The reality of the matter is that most people suck at everything.

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Willravel

I will admit to tolerating it for a small bit in the beginning because I was proud she was using deductive reasoning at such a young age. "If I cry, I seem to get what I want" *writes in notebook*. Still, if you allow it long enough it can become a mechanism for manipulation, as you so astutely stated. When it went from a method of communication to a method of control, I became intermittent in my responses, requiring her instead to communicate what she wants. If what she wants is reasonable and she communicated it in a respectful manner, I would supply it to her and lavish her with affection. If she whined and I gave it to her, I had a sad face. It didn't take her long to associate the positive attention with the respectful communication.

In other words, it's important to recognize that this is often an important step in developing communication and building an understanding of society. Punishing it right off that bat would be like punishing a child for crawling before walking. Children of a certain age are still learning what is or isn't appropriate behavior. The only important part is ensuring that the child does not dwell on the behavior too long. That's when negative and positive reinforcement are put into place to move the child into the next stage of communication (usually verbal).

This is part of the reason parenting requires an almost endless wellspring of patience. It will piss you off a lot the first time you experience it, especially if it's your own child.

ratbastid

The behavior is only happening because it has been reinforced. Behavior starts out subtle and experimental, and reinforcement shapes it into what it has become. Ask anyone who's trained a dog--that's the nature of behavior. And no, actually, human beings aren't all that different from dogs, when it comes to behavioral adaptation and reinforcement.

Willravel

Dog's respond better to consistent reinforcement whereas humans respond better to inconsistent reinforcement. It's one of those odd quirks that separates us from many other intelligent animals. Operant conditioning 101! Time to get a Skinner Box....

Jinn

Oh Pavlov..

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Willravel

I could get kids to salivate, sure. But would that stop them from fake-crying? Also, would CPS come for me?

*Nikki*

Are you talking about full on crying or whining???

My child whines a lot to tell me what she wants, this is currently the only way she knows besides crying to express herself. Children go through many periods in life where they are very emotional until they learn the right words for what they need and now they feel.

sapiens

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but both dogs and humans display more resistance to extinction using partial reinforcement schedules. We are not different from dogs in that regard.

If you consistently reinforce tantrums, it will be easier to extinguish the tantrum behavior later than if you partially (inconsistently) reinforce the behavior (aka the partial reinforcement extinction effect).

Willravel

I was taught in school that we both shared this, but I've found that it's actually more true with humans and less true with dogs. Intermittent reinforcement enjoys a better success rate in humans than dogs.

Still, CR/PR would likely be the best for a human child.

I'm glad psychology occasionally surfaces here on TFP. I'd hate to get rusty.

ShaniFaye

I honestly dont remember Amanda ever trying this.....if she had she wouldnt have gotten away with it

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mixedmedia

Fake crying is bullshit and I call it.

How about that?

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abaya

True, a valid point. Thing is, I understand Icelandic, and whenever this family goes up and down the stairs (very loudly), I can hear pretty much everything they're saying... and I understand it, and what the kid is demanding, and their response. I also watch them when they're playing on the playground directly in front of my kitchen window, when I'm washing the dishes, and the kid appears to be fairly normal to me.

So yes, I may not know exactly what is going on, that's true... but I do watch this family and listen to almost everything that goes on in the hall and upstairs (seriously, they are LOUD--we had another family up there before them, with a kid the same age, and we thought the floor was soundproof because we never heard a peep from them!)... and lacking any further information, I still think the kid is a spoiled, attention-seeking brat.

And Nikki, as I said in my OP:... I understand that kids under a certain age and vocabulary level are incapable of expressing a lot of complex things, and that's okay. I would rather have my kid do this fake crying thing once, then have me stop and correct him/her, and provide him/her with a simple sentence to better express what they want or what they're feeling, before coming down hard on them to harden the fuck up and stop that fake crying shit because I can see right through them, and they're not going to get what they want no matter how much they turn the world upside down. However, after a certain number of times (as MM gave an example of), there has to be a consequence, in my mind. Consequences for everything, because yes, every parental reaction is a form of conditioning for that kid. From what I can tell, it's very much like classroom management (and we had to regurgitate all of that Skinnerian business as well)... except with more influence, because as a teacher, you're still managing other people's kids.

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highthief

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The_Jazz

If her name is Sarah, she's Asian and was on a reality TV show, we know someone IRL in common.

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xepherys

My youngest fake cries a lot... but mostly because he's a little actor. It never fools us and he knows it. Sometimes we mock him a little and he gets mad a pouty and says, "I'm CRYING!!!". It's actually pretty cute and more times than not we get him to laugh instead of cry. It's also not an obnoxious, loud crying, just sort of a pouting psuedo-sobbing. We don't indulge it, but neither do we fall for it.

I guess it just depends on the kids' motives, the parents smarts and the result at the end.

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jewels

This is my biggest problem with most parents.

Toddlers will start to do this instinctually. From the first time they do it, they are gauging the parental response. Mom and Dad, in general, can't stand the whining and crying and eventually cave. This is how kids fall into the crying and whining for shit which is perpetuated by the parental response. The kid's actually smarter than the parent.

What should be done? Walk away. Ignore it. Period. Giving it attention gives it value. Teaches the child how to handle the parent. Do this twice if it's the first time. If you're attempting to change a child who's learned this, it might take longer. Consistency is ridiculously simple but you have to care enough to carry through.

When my kids were younger than that, I laid out the ground rules everywhere we went. If we were going out or shopping: Hold my hand, if I let go, hold onto my belt loop. Do not ask me for ANY thing at all. If you misbehave, out we go. If you behave and don't ask me for anything, I will get you (something they like that's good for 'em). And I held to my word. Someone gave me a hard time, we left, even if my cart was full. Home or out, the kids need to know the parents mean business.

These parents have no backbone. The kid will always get what he/she wants.

Sad.

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Jinn

These kids turn into adults who use a more societally acceptable method of crying to get their way on everything. That's what bothers me the most.

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Charlatan

I am with mixedmedia on this... fake crying is bullshit and I call my kids on it all the time.

My goal is to teach them to communicate appropriately.

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Grasshopper Green

I agree with mixed and Charlatan. When my son cries, there is almost always pain involved. He rarely cries for no reason because he knows we don't put up with it.

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snowy

This is very true.

The fact is, parents are afraid to be the bad guy, more often than not. I see this all the time with myriad behavior problems. I generally come in and sort it out; parents think I'm some kind of miracle worker when all it takes is a firm attitude and consistency to get it straightened out.

Parents are not professionals, remember that. Most haven't taken classes in psychology, child development, or pedagogy, and they're too close to their children to truly see the problems that everyone else sees.

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abaya

I agree with Jewels. Right on, man... I will be asking you for more advice when our kids come along. And yeah, they're not professionals, but that kind of stuff should be mandatory (in my perfect world)... I think, in the old days, people might have had more of a clue about how to be parents (maybe not the psychology, etc... but just from being around families and kids more often, and having more experience with kids, before having kids). But I could be wrong. (I'll also be asking you for advice when we have kids, too.)

Ktspktsp and I were just saying that we should get some good books on parenting and discipline, way before we even start trying to conceive... just to get a head start on things, review our psychology, etc. Of course, I do think parenting is something that ultimately has to be learned in the trenches, but at little research never hurt anyone. Any recommendations?

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

vanblah

Since this is really not a child-rearing thread I don't know how far I should go into this but ...

I always hear about "kids and parents in the old days" and how much better things were. Sure, you didn't have kids whining for crap like candy and sugared cereals and toys. That's because these things hardly existed; not to mention the hundreds of hours of advertising telling kids they MUST HAVE these things (it's not just on the teevee either). And let's not forget the whole corporal punishment thing. I can't recall meeting anyone my parents age who wasn't disciplined with a belt or paddle. Fear is wonderful tool for controlling those temper tantrums -- not that it is the BEST tool; but it's effective.

Kids also worked in "the old days." If you go far enough back (but less than 100 years) a lot of kids actually had REAL jobs.

So yeah, kids were "better" in the old days in that they didn't throw tantrums and parenting may seem "better" through the romanticized eye of history but I really don't think it was. In fact, given the nature of our litigious society and "pertect the childerns" attitude I'd suspect a lot of parents would be in jail and a lot of kids would be wards of the state.

I have no degree in psychology and my child rarely throws tantrums and occasionally she may whine (especially if she's tired) but we have a pretty good handle on it. I have never read any pop-psych book on child-rearing (I can't stand pop-psychology). But I can tell you what I have observed in almost 7 years of raising a child: children learn through imitation first (which THEN gets reinforced). If you see a whiny or demanding child or a child who is melodramatic (fake-crying) chances are one of the parents is that way. The behavior may be much more subtle in the adult but it's there. Observe closely over time and you'll see. My daughter has a ton of friends around her age and I see patterns in their behavior that I can spot in their parents; even whining and demanding (especially that).

My child? Over analytical (almost to a fault) and she's a little too sensitive (her feelings get hurt pretty easily) but she's not afraid to act really goofy with no regard for the reaction of others. I could go on ... but the point is she's an interesting combination of the personality traits of her mother and me.

highthief

You talk a lot of good sense, sir.

My daughter and I would probably be scolded by Internet experts too - I'm not a psychologist (why people think this will result in being a better parent I'm not sure), she's 3, she has speech problems which means she occasionally cries or whines a little when she cannot verbalize like other children her age (an issue when she is tired or ill), but 98% of the time is a good little girl who behaves well.

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snowy

You don't need to be a psychologist to be a better parent, but having some knowledge of psychology is incredibly helpful when working with small kids, as is child development. It makes it a lot less stressful, actually! In general, it gives one a better understanding of why kids act the way they do and when.

Of course, there are myriad books out there that address both topics. Let's say good parents do their homework. And therein lies the rub--parenting is a lot of work and it does take a knowledge base, one you build up over time as you parent or read books to help you parent; people in general are lazy and go in to parenting without the knowledge of just how much work it can be.

Now, keep in mind I'm not addressing this at any TFP parent; by and large the parents we have around here are the kind willing to put in the work to raise their children well. And I applaud you for it.

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jewels

Exactly. Most of it's simple common sense.

Granted, I made many mistakes with my first daughter. I was divorced when she was young and was so petrified that if she wasn't happy, her dad would change his mind and decide he wanted custody. I was naive and selfish back then. And I didn't know anyone else in my situation, so there was no one to offer me advice.

That said, listen to what your parents and friends have to say. Take in the information that makes sense to you. You can't go wrong if you keep your mind and heart focused on your child's future, and not what makes life easier for you at the moment.

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Milkyway

I think you hit the nail on the head, parenting is a lot of work and in an age of fast food, cell phones and fast cars, etc, we have grown lazy. I believe each generation is getting smarter, advancing intellectually, but at ther same time getting lazier. And if lazy parents have smart kids then manipulative fits occur.

I have two toddlers, my 2 1/2 year old daughter is the "smarter" of the two and is constantly looking for new ways to break the rules and push peoples buttons and I am constantly reminding her of the rules, sometimes nicely, sometimes not so nicely (read into that tried and true discipline).

I can say that my kids are realitiveely well mannered and well behaved, but they, being toddlers still try to play the "games" even though they have not found one yet that works with mommy. I get tired of the winning I get tired of the crying and I get tired of the fits. I would feel sorry for anyone who lived close enough to me to hear it all day, even if they were saying, "you go girl, that's right that toddler doesn't get that because they cried for it." They still would be hearing more than they wanted and needed to hear.

So Abaya, I recommend listening to music to drown out someone else's childrearing. And as far as the previous neighbors go whose kid wasn't as noisy, probably a shyer more average child with smarter less lazy parents.

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abaya

Ha! Thanks. Yeah, I do put the radio on pretty often, but sometimes I just need quiet to work. It's really not so much the child-rearing (I can't hear the mom's voice very often--just the child's) as the whining factor... maybe I just haven't been around kids very much, but I have never heard a kid cry or whine so much in my life. This morning at about 7am, she broke into a tantrum above our bedroom (we usually wake up at 8am--lovely), and all I could hear in Icelandic were the words, "I want my toy, I want my TOYYYYYYYY!" on her way out the door.

And yes, the previous neighbors had a very well-behaved, polite little girl, whom I really never heard crying, ever. Her parents were also immigrants (like us), which might not be related, but they seemed even more conscious of keeping a quiet presence and following the rules, keeping things clean, etc. so as not to stand out or make trouble.

A sidenote that also bothers me: the new family upstairs NEVER participates in cleaning the corridor, which is supposed to rotate between apartments every 2 weeks. The building owner was going to start charging each of us 30 bucks a month for a cleaner because the hallway was never clean--no way, I'll just vacuum that damn thing every 2 weeks, it's not worth 30 bucks a month to me.

So yeah, the kid whines and cries a lot, and the parents do not keep up with their responsibility in maintaining the building, and that all just makes me want to give them a swift kick in the ass on some days.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Shauk

heh, my dad would call me on any fake crying bullshit I ever tried to pull on him by putting one hand on his belt and saying "you should stop crying before I give you a real reason to cry"

No shit, good stuff. haha.

fnaqzna

Small children aren't generally very creative when it comes to communication. They use whatever technique works. Quite obviously, the child's parents have a low tolerance for crying and the child has learned to exploit it.

It's really just that simple.

Milkyway

My friend says this is exactly why she doesn't keep a gun in her house!!!!

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JumpinJesus

Honestly, how hard can raising a kid these days be? I mean, when I was a kid, there were only 13 cable channels. We were bored by 2 in the afternoon and getting into stuff. These days, with digital cable, you can keep your kids quiet and occupied for days.

Just turn the tv on and shut the kids up. That's all I'm sayin'.

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