Herk

I'm not a big anti-drug guy. I'm all for people getting to do as they please. This issue is not about whether drugs are good or bad. It is more about the impact of making that decision for your child.

For a long time, I've been of the mindset that no matter whether a kid really has ADHD or not it is not a good plan to drug them. The reason is, I feel you should make the decision for yourself whether or not you need drugs to control yourself. So, let them get to adulthood then make that choice.

Also, I'd hate to give my daughter the information that she was born with an insufficiant brain and now must take drugs in order to operate on par with society.

I will say that I believe her ADHD diagnosis, in spite of the fact that she is a girl and that this is so commonly misdiagnosed. However, I'm not convinced that I should provide her with stimulants to counteract for it.

Lately, I've started to think maybe I'd be doing her a favor by doing so. She is incredibly intelligent; could talk, walk, pee, and read early. She speaks more properly than most adults I know, but she is totally incapable of focusing on tasks, or sitting still, and is constantly in trouble for it at school. In fact, she got suspended(she is a first grader), and then kicked out of a Montessori school. None-the-less, I'm not here to argue about ADHD, whether it exists or whether she has it. What I want to know is; if a kid does have it and stands to benefit from medication, is there a moral issue that stands in the way of providing this for her?

She has shown a ton of improvment lately and I'm thinking she may continue to grow into controlling it. I've been thinking that her whole life though, and it may be time to take action. I'm interested in hearing all of the awesome, logical TFPer's thoughts on the matter.

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-Blind faith runs into things!-

Jinn

I agree with your sentiment, and I would not willingly provide my child medication for AD(H)D because I do not believe it is a disease needing treatment.

The "disorder" has many benefits, not least of which is the ability to dramatically multi-task. If it's truly a "mood disorder" so destructive to her success in adult life, she will learn then to control it. I do worry, though, that you're making it acceptable to act in such a way. If she's gotten kicked out of a school, I have to believe that you've enabled her to believe it is okay to be disruptive, in one way or another. Perhaps evaluate your emotional/disciplinary reaction to her behavior, rather than your choice to not medicate her?

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Herk

Ah, I was worried that would be a reaction I got. You may be right. I often find myself wondering how I can better parent to avoid these types of problems. Perhaps I have made some mistakes along the way. Surely I have, rather. However, I will say that I have always been devoted to doing the best I could. I have been very consistent with rules and responsibilities, as well as rewards and privileges.

Stuff like: family at the dinner table every night, bed time the same every night, no option when directed by anybody above you in life's hierarchy, and core values. Most importantly I've stressed that logic is the best tool for decision making. I'm certainly open to making changes in my parenting to better her situation. This is why I took her to the psychiatrist; to see what could be done. I had no intentions of giving her drugs, but as it turned out that was all he could recommend.

I certainly do not enable her knowingly. I allow for no deviations from my rule in my presence. When she gets into trouble at school she is grounded within a consistent set of results. There is no off-the-hook with me.

I appreciate your comments.

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-Blind faith runs into things!-

snowy

I would say there are good alternatives to drugs, even in cases of ADHD. Cognitive behavioral therapy would probably prove helpful.

But she has to be aware and proactive about this, and that will take constant reinforcement on your part--positive reinforcement of good behaviors and good habits.

Drugs are a good crutch, and a good easy way out. Going without them means a lot of hard work for both child and parent. It will also mean that you will have to be a constant advocate for your child. You will face a lot of opposition in your choice not to drug your child. You will have to find other advocates for your child, and a support network for yourself. You must educate yourself in order to be the best advocate you can.

It's not impossible to go without drugs. But it is very hard. Are you willing to do the work?

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

high_jinx

im against any pills for kids with just about any personality disorder, up to the point where they're dangerous to themselves or others. i think that kids are just too good at learning, and that if you spot something like ADD you can teach them to control it on their own. i think there are just too many shortcuts in our society as an alternative to self control, and i think that theres too much profit to be had by pharmacies to trust anything my doctor says about that stuff unless something's about to fall off.

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-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

snowy

Well, the problem with this is that Herk's daughter got kicked out of a Montessori school. Montessori school is not traditionally structured, and learning is self-paced. The only rules in Montessori school are to wait your turn, to be respectful of others, and not to disrupt others. So being held back by being "too good at learning" doesn't really apply here.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

The_Jazz

I'm a firm believer that there is no single answer that fits everyone in these cases. There are misdiagnoses galore, and many times drugs will kill a child's creativity.

That said, drugs are the answer for many kids. One of my favorite blogs (http://buggydoo.blogspot.com/) is written by a mom of a child with an array of problems. It's been interesting to watch her evolve over the years from what you're thinking, Herk, to believing that medication is the answer for her child.

If your daughter can function without meds, that's the way to go. I hope that's the way it turns out. That said, medication is the solution for other kids.

That's me, firmly in the middle of the road, waiting for the truck to hit me.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Johnny Rotten

I would recommend looking into this:

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"The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them." -- Michael Caine

jewels

Read up on nutrition. I know that in addition to casein, EFAs and other nutrients are crucial for mental development and some children have difficulty breaking them down and receiving what they need. Here's one such link:

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/a...cit-000017.htm

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We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Herk

I am at work right now. I will certainly check these links at first opportunity. I appreciate your comments. I am confident that I can be a strong advocate for my position no matter which I choose.

Give me more. I'm really interested in seeing what the TFP masses think about the subject.

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-Blind faith runs into things!-

n0nsensical

Society has extremely unrealistic expectations on children, and when they can't meet them, what do we do, break out the amphetamines and other powerful stimulants of course. The whole War on Drugs is predicated on the idea that we need to protect children from drug addiction. While we enthusiastically give them some of the most addictive drugs in existence. Well, yes, one of the effects of speed is to make you more focused. When it's in the service of society, it's fine; when it's in the service of your own enjoyment, it's somehow wrong and therefore illegal. The levels of hypocrisy we're willing to reach to justify certain ends are astounding.

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"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln

Prince

In general, I disagree. I don't think medication is an easy way out. Very few medications actually fix something. They mostly just mask our symptoms so that we can focus on eating our fries and playing more CoD without having to deal with our problems. But the medications themselves can bring with them a whole new set of issues.

I don't have ADD, and when I grew up (I'm not that old, 31 in a couple of months) it didn't exist. Hyperactive kids were just that - hyperactive. And it is no coincidence that these very same hyperactive kids are now some of the most successful individuals I know. Back then, they didn't dumb those kids down with Zombietol or Numbitol. They acted out in class? Of course they did. We all did. And then we got spanked the shit out of, and deserved it.

That is not to say ADD isn't a real medical problem. In some cases, it may be bad enough that it needs medicating. But the same goes for a lot of things these days. I walked into a mental health counselor's office some weeks ago, and on the first session she offered to write me a prescription for antidepressants. I declined, but then again I am old enough to make that decision for myself. The point being that I believe in some cases they push meds on you well before it should even be considered. Another thing is this whole business about kids acting up in school. It seems to me as if the tolerance regarding that has really lowered. When I was a kid, the teacher could shout and yell and cook up all kinds of non-physical punishments for us. I'm not sure they're even allowed to yell anymore. They're just powerless, which fuels the kids' behavioral problems. When the parents are the only adults in their lives with the authority to set and reinforce the kids' boundaries, well... Those few hours of quality time the parents get to spend with their kids between clocking out from work and going to bed, it's just not sufficient in many cases. But I digress as usual.

I am an advocate for behavioral therapy, at least as a first step. I would encourage you to explore that option first, but I wouldn't consider you a bad parent or anything for resorting to medicating if need be. Do what you feel is best for your child.

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Johnny Rotten

I think a lot of that has to do with how much time a medical practitioner can give or is willing to give to a patient or client. It's much more efficient and statistically effective (in the short term at least), for them to hand you a prescription and move on to the next person. We're dealing with the massive generation of aging baby boomers, and the population of doctors has not scaled to it.

That's not to excuse them offering pills the first time they see you. I think that's borderline irresponsible. You can't really get a complete picture of a person's mental health in one sitting, largely because the patient himself might not be aware of the depth or complexity of his condition. Or they may be understandably uncomfortable with disclosing every relevant detail to a person they've never met.

There's also the symptomatic approach to Western medicine that you mentioned. You can give a person Tylenol if they get headaches a lot, but you could also stop the headaches from recurring in the first place, if the problem is environmental or dietary.

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"The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them." -- Michael Caine

Bear Cub

To go with your original post Herk, should it REALLY be up to children to make their own decisions regarding their health?

If a child has bronchitis and needs an antibiotic, should they be allowed to just wait it out because their medicine tastes "yucky?" How about immunizations?

What I'm suggesting is that while yes, they should be allowed to make their own adult decisions, YOUR actions may be directly responsible for what is made out of their adulthood. If their behavior becomes so disruptive that they are kicked out of school, turn to other activities such as drugs/crime out of boredom, was it really that good of an idea to let them go without medication?

It's not as though a child can't be taken off the drugs eventually. Perhaps he/she will appreciate the praise they receive when their behavior is controlled, they start doing well in school, and stop acting out to where they are GLAD they were placed on the medication. You can't really allow them to make an apples to apples comparison without that second set of apples.

Plan9

Amen. Parents. Parents. Parents. Uh... what's that word, again?

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Glory's Sun

You may want to check this article out:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7090011.stm

genuinegirly

Maybe she just needs a different learning environment. Perhaps there's nothing wrong with your daughter (yes, she has ADD, but is that really wrong??), but the learning environment just isn't for her.

I'm sorry if there are some die-hard Montessori supporters out there, but not every 4 year old is capable of succeding in this environment. Some require more attention and structure. Especially children who cannot create their own structure - they need someone to show them what it's like to focus.

By choosing not to medicate your child, you will always deal with the fact that most primary school teachers are not educated on how to keep healthy, unmedicated ADD/ ADHD children in line. This means you'll have to take a more active role. If she's diagnosed ADD/ ADHD by a physician, great! Start talking with the disability folks in your school district and learn what your rights are. You're under no obligation to medicate your child, no matter how many times her teachers ask you to do it. You will have to push for your child's rights.

I've seen and heard about lots of work-arounds. From things as minor as sending the child to grab a book or otherwise move every 10 minutes, to using a yoga ball as a chair, to keep them moving, using exciting interactive pens, and focusing in on readings and lectures by drawing pictures while everyone else pays attention in other ways. I've also heard the alternatives of these, including offering them no distractions, plain pencils, boring reading, and just asking them to tap their foot at any and all times.

My sister was diagnosed at age 17. She chose to take the medications only long enough to graduate high school. She went off them after finals. She learned that she could focus better with them, but she lost a part of her personality. She did fine in her college courses without medication, partially because she knew what it was like to be medicated and actively wanted to avoid it.

By choosing to medicate a child at a young age, they never know the energetic part of themselves, they never learn to work with it.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Herk

Well put. I agree with this sentiment.

I'll clarify by saying that it wasn't on the first sitting in our case. We've been a few times, and had questionaires filled out by her teachers and by us. None-the-less I agree with your statements.

Absolutely, as long as the benefit of waiting outweighs the risk. In this case, I feel it does.
A few things come to mind. Antibiotics and extremely addictive stimulants with some pretty severe side-affects are definitely not very comparable. How about immunizations? They are just as questionable as stimulants in my opinion. Many are great, and I've provided them for my child as recommended, but as long as you mention it, I'm not a big advocate of self-poisoning for potential avoidance of future problems. I'm a bigger fan of maintaining good health through diet and exercise. Anyway, I see your point, but I've thought of that and your extreme point I don't think really lands here.
Thank you. I agree, and this is exactly what I am wrestling with.
This is the type of reply I guess I didn't expect. Saying you can just take them off if it doesn't work is really a horrible way to make a plan in any scenario, in my opinion. At that point some of the psychological damage could have already been done. Anyway, I still think you are correct. It may very well be helpful, but snorting a big rail of meth before you start spring cleaning is helpful, too, and you'll surely be pleased with the end result of the cleaning. I don't mean to patronize, and I really appreciate you chiming in. This is honestly that way I look at it, though.

I don't even know what this means, but I've worked very diligently to be a great parent. I came here to try and further my knowledge of how to do so.

guccilvr, thank you for that post. I did find it interesting. I am worried that more bad will come over time, but I accept that certainly more good information will come as well.
I don't know how much more active my role could get. I have been very active. I have been in constant communication with her schools' faculties. I requested that her school get a behavioral specialist in on this. We've had a few meetings, and they'll be performing a comprehensive behavioral evaluation. For those of you who don't know, at least in Missouri, public schools are required to do this upon request, though there may be a long line.

Regarding Montessori school; I totally agree. This is not the correct environment for some children, although it is arguably vastly superior to public schools for many children. This is precisely why we put her right back into the public school after a few months at Montessori. As it turns out, she does require structure that Montessori does not offer.

Your statment about not getting to see the side of them present without the drugs is exactly what prompted all of this. I'm not worn out of parenting a difficult kid. I have a lot of patience. I just want to to be the most awesome adult she can be. I fear I would take that away from her by altering things like her creativity, capability to multitask in uncanny ways, and most importantly her sense of self.

Anyway, once again. Thanks to everybody for taking interest in this and providing me with some things to think about. I'll be sure and keep checking this, and if any interesting updates come I'll let you know.

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-Blind faith runs into things!-

MSD

From personal experience and from observing others with ADHD who have tried several types of treatment, medication most certainly does help and that claims that medication isn't any better than doing nothing in the long run are ridiculous. The problem is overdiagnosing and prescribing as a first option rather than using it as a supplement to behavioral therapy.

Then again, I rarely use ADD medication properly and use it to stay awake more than anything else, so what the hell do I know?