Is soreness an indicator of a good workout? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Zeraph · 11-23-2007, 10:15 AM

I've noticed that when I get into decent shape it's much much harder for me to get really sore after a workout. Am I getting lazy in my workouts or does the body adapt so that it doesn't get as sore anymore?

The_Jazz · 11-23-2007, 10:29 AM

Yes it does. Generally that "sore" feeling is lactic acid buildup. As you become more fit, your body produces less LA at the same exertion level. If you change the exertion level or the type of exertion, that adaption won't be as complete.

Distance runners that start doing speed work generally find this out in a big hurry.

ngdawg · 11-23-2007, 11:06 AM

That's not quite the case, Jazz:

Quote:

Most runners still believe that lactic acid is released during hard or unaccustomed exercise and that this is what limits running performance, as well as being the cause of stiffness. Neither is correct. But not even is the terminology of “lactic acid”.

Lactic acid does not exist as an acid in the body: it exists in another form called “lactate”, and it is this that is actually measured in the blood when “lactic acid” concentration is determined, as is done from time to time. This distinction is important not only for the sake of correctness, but more importantly, because lactate and lactic acid would have different physiological effects.

The greatest myth is that lactic acid is the cause of the stiffness felt after an event such as a marathon. Stiffness is due mostly to damage to the muscle, and not an accumulation of lactic acid or lactic acid crystals in the muscle.

Another misconception is that lactate is responsible for acidifying the blood, thereby causing fatigue. To the contrary, lactate is actually an important fuel that is used by the muscles during prolonged exercise. Lactate released from the muscle is converted in the liver to glucose, which is then used as an energy source. So rather than cause fatigue, it actually helps to delay a possible lowering of blood glucose concentration, a condition called hypoglycemia, and which will cause a runner to feel weak and fatigued if it occurs.

A more recent addition to the muddled thinking is that of the anaerobic threshold. Pictures are seen of athletes having a blood sample taken with an accompanying caption indicating that the workout is being monitored by measuring “lactic acid”. The supposed rationale is that as running speed is increased, a point is reached at which there is insufficient oxygen available to the muscle and energy sources that do not require oxygen contribute to the energy that is needed. This results in a disproportionate increase in the blood lactate concentration, a point identified as the anaerobic threshold. This is also known as the lactate threshold or lactate 'turnpoint'. There are two problems with this. Firstly, the muscle never becomes anaerobic: there are other reasons for the supposed disproportionate increase that is measured in blood lactate concentration. Secondly, the so-called disproportionate increase causing a 'turnpoint' is not correct, in that the increase is actually smooth and incremental. This led to another way of using blood lactate concentration to monitor running performance.

If blood lactate concentration is measured at different, increasing running speeds, it is possible to eventually draw a curve depicting the continued increase in concentration as the running speed gets faster. The position of this curve changes as fitness level changes. Particularly, the fitter a runner gets, the more the curve shifts to the right, meaning that at any given lactate concentration the running speed is higher than before. Often, the running speed at a lactate concentration of 4 mmol/l is used as a standard for comparison. This can also be used as a guide for training speed i.e. a runner could do some runs each week at the speed corresponding to the 4 mmol/l lactate concentration, some runs above this speed, and recovery runs at a slower speed. Of course, as fitness changes and the curve shifts, these speeds will change, and so a new curve will have to be determined. This is all very well, but the problem is to know how much running should be done below, at, and above the 4 mmol/l concentration. Remember, 4 mmol/l is a fairly arbitrarily chosen amount. Thus the real value in determining a “lactate curve” is to monitor how it shifts with training. The desirable shift is one in which a faster running speed is achieved at a given lactate concentration than before. This regular testing can be done in the laboratory with the athlete running on a treadmill or on a track in which running speed can be carefully controlled, such as by means of pace lights. Both types of testing are done at the Sports Science Institute, usually for research purposes.

While useful information can be gained from regular testing to determine a runners’ lactate curve, it is important to keep in mind what is fact and what is fiction.

Source: http://www.time-to-run.com/theabc/lactic.htm

Also:

Quote:

BERKELEY – In the lore of marathoners and extreme athletes, lactic acid is poison, a waste product that builds up in the muscles and leads to muscle fatigue, reduced performance and pain.

Some 30 years of research at the University of California, Berkeley, however, tells a different story: Lactic acid can be your friend.
A student volunteers does interval training for a study of lactate metabolism during intense exercise.
Coaches and athletes don't realize it, says exercise physiologist George Brooks, UC Berkeley professor of integrative biology, but endurance training teaches the body to efficiently use lactic acid as a source of fuel on par with the carbohydrates stored in muscle tissue and the sugar in blood. Efficient use of lactic acid, or lactate, not only prevents lactate build-up, but ekes out more energy from the body's fuel.

In a paper in press for the American Journal of Physiology - Endocrinology and Metabolism, published online in January, Brooks and colleagues Takeshi Hashimoto and Rajaa Hussien in UC Berkeley's Exercise Physiology Laboratory add one of the last puzzle pieces to the lactate story and also link for the first time two metabolic cycles - oxygen-based aerobic metabolism and oxygen-free anaerobic metabolism - previously thought distinct.

"This is a fundamental change in how people think about metabolism," Brooks said. "This shows us how lactate is the link between oxidative and glycolytic, or anaerobic, metabolism."

He and his UC Berkeley colleagues found that muscle cells use carbohydrates anaerobically for energy, producing lactate as a byproduct, but then burn the lactate with oxygen to create far more energy. The first process, called the glycolytic pathway, dominates during normal exertion, and the lactate seeps out of the muscle cells into the blood to be used elsewhere. During intense exercise, however, the second ramps up to oxidatively remove the rapidly accumulating lactate and create more energy.

Training helps people get rid of the lactic acid before it can build to the point where it causes muscle fatigue, and at the cellular level, Brooks said, training means growing the mitochondria in muscle cells. The mitochondria - often called the powerhouse of the cell - is where lactate is burned for energy.

"The world's best athletes stay competitive by interval training," Brooks said, referring to repeated short, but intense, bouts of exercise. "The intense exercise generates big lactate loads, and the body adapts by building up mitochondria to clear lactic acid quickly. If you use it up, it doesn't accumulate."

To move, muscles need energy in the form of ATP, adenosine triphosphate. Most people think glucose, a sugar, supplies this energy, but during intense exercise, it's too little and too slow as an energy source, forcing muscles to rely on glycogen, a carbohydrate stored inside muscle cells. For both fuels, the basic chemical reactions producing ATP and generating lactate comprise the glycolytic pathway, often called anaerobic metabolism because no oxygen is needed. This pathway was thought to be separate from the oxygen-based oxidative pathway, sometimes called aerobic metabolism, used to burn lactate and other fuels in the body's tissues.

Experiments with dead frogs in the 1920s seemed to show that lactate build-up eventually causes muscles to stop working. But Brooks in the 1980s and '90s showed that in living, breathing animals, the lactate moves out of muscle cells into the blood and travels to various organs, including the liver, where it is burned with oxygen to make ATP. The heart even prefers lactate as a fuel, Brooks found.

Brooks always suspected, however, that the muscle cell itself could reuse lactate, and in experiments over the past 10 years he found evidence that lactate is burned inside the mitochondria, an interconnected network of tubes, like a plumbing system, that reaches throughout the cell cytoplasm.

In 1999, for example, he showed that endurance training reduces blood levels of lactate, even while cells continue to produce the same amount of lactate. This implied that, somehow, cells adapt during training to put out less waste product. He postulated an "intracellular lactate shuttle" that transports lactate from the cytoplasm, where lactate is produced, through the mitochondrial membrane into the interior of the mitochondria, where lactate is burned. In 2000, he showed that endurance training increased the number of lactate transporter molecules in mitochondria, evidently to speed uptake of lactate from the cytoplasm into the mitochondria for burning.

The new paper and a second paper to appear soon finally provide direct evidence for the hypothesized connection between the transporter molecules - the lactate shuttle - and the enzymes that burn lactate. In fact, the cellular mitochondrial network, or reticulum, has a complex of proteins that allow the uptake and oxidation, or burning, of lactic acid.

"This experiment is the clincher, proving that lactate is the link between glycolytic metabolism, which breaks down carbohydrates, and oxidative metabolism, which uses oxygen to break down various fuels," Brooks said.

Post-doctoral researcher Takeshi Hashimoto and staff research associate Rajaa Hussien established this by labeling and showing colocalization of three critical pieces of the lactate pathway: the lactate transporter protein; the enzyme lactate dehydrogenase, which catalyzes the first step in the conversion of lactate into energy; and mitochondrial cytochrome oxidase, the protein complex where oxygen is used. Peering at skeletal muscle cells through a confocal microscope, the two scientists saw these proteins sitting together inside the mitochondria, attached to the mitochondrial membrane, proving that the "intracellular lactate shuttle" is directly connected to the enzymes in the mitochondria that burn lactate with oxygen.

"Our findings can help athletes and trainers design training regimens and also avoid overtraining, which can kill muscle cells," Brooks said. "Athletes may instinctively train in a way that builds up mitochondria, but if you never know the mechanism, you never know whether what you do is the right thing. These discoveries reshape fundamental thinking on the organization, function and regulation of major pathways of metabolism."

Brooks' research is supported by the National Institutes of Health.

Source: http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/r..._lactate.shtml

Zeraph · 11-23-2007, 11:38 AM

Recently I've been getting dizziness migraines from reading, could someone please sum up what that just said? I'm still not sure if my body has adapted or as I work out more I push myself less.

Plan9 · 11-23-2007, 11:55 AM

I don't know about all the science shit, but since I ran 10 miles in 73 minutes on Thanksgiving, I shall quote that popular Marine Corps bumper sticker:

Pain is weakness leaving the body.

One can expect physical exertion that results in the growth of muscle tissue to be painful. Feel the burn. No pain, no gain.

...

Definitely read NGDawg's post later when your migraine subsides. A lot to be learned.

Skutch · 11-23-2007, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeraph

I've noticed that when I get into decent shape it's much much harder for me to get really sore after a workout. Am I getting lazy in my workouts or does the body adapt so that it doesn't get as sore anymore?

Very vague here. What types of exercise are you doing - aerobic or anaerobic? In general, yes as the muscles of the body get used to a certain level and type of exercise there will be less pain in those muscles (and ligaments, tendons, etc). Going beyond your normal routine will stress the body resulting in discomfort/lactic acid buildup/muscle soreness. The idea is to establish goals and work towards them. Generally, and barring injury, you should feel less pain once you are where you want to be. If you want to take it further (run farther, lift heavier weight/more reps) expect your body to experience more pain as it readjusts to the new workload. Its a plateau scenario.

Zeraph · 11-23-2007, 12:48 PM

Congrats Cromp, that's roughly were I hope to be eventually (goal is to get there in ~6 months or so).

Mostly endurance; running, push ups and sit ups. Let me rephrase my question. If I'm not getting as sore as I used to, should I push harder?

And I know about the ligaments/tendons type stuff. I'm specifically talking about muscle soreness.

Sorry if I'm being dense here. But no one seems to be able to give me a straight answer on how much I can/should push myself. I'm not sure what to aim for.

Ratman · 11-23-2007, 02:31 PM

Basically, the more you exercise, the more efficient your body becomes at dealing with lactic acid. There are two ways this happens. The first is that oxygen is used to convert lactic acid back to a form of usable energy. Your body learns to use oxygen more efficiently as the oxygen exchange in your lungs improves (aerobic). The second is the little bitty parts inside of muscle cells learn to use lactic acid as a energy source without conversion (anaerobic).

You don't have to push harder, necessarily. You can create an artificial "oxygen debt" by breathing less often, say every 3-5 strides. You can also stress the oxygen exchange by running on a track and sprinting the straights, walking the curves for a couple of miles.

Good luck with your goal!

Plan9 · 11-23-2007, 02:40 PM

Army trick: Try running with a mouthful of water. Don't swallow the water.

That'll challenge the shit out of you. Trust me.

soma · 11-23-2007, 03:56 PM

After a workout, if I'm not sore the next day, I assume I'm not working out hard enough. Yeah. Your body can really adapt quickly!

Zeraph · 11-24-2007, 11:01 AM

Thank you for the straight answer, Ratman.

Hah, I'll try that Cromp, sounds like a fun challenge.

sphynx · 11-24-2007, 11:10 AM

It is natural to be sore after you workout for the first time in awhile, normally that soreness goes away with time. Well at least the duration the soreness lasts does, you will normally always be sore after a workout...thats just the sign of a good workout, as I always say, if it hurts afterwards...it means it worked...unless you're in excruciating pain...that means you busted something. The funny thing about working out is that you're actually destroying your body to make it better, the trick is knowing how much to destroy it so the damage isn't permanent or too painful to bear. You'll know if you worked out too much; just do it in moderation, with a sensible diet, adequate rest, lots of fluids and you should be ship shape.

stevie667 · 11-25-2007, 06:19 AM

Soreness is not a good indicator of a good workout. Since i started streching more (or should i say at all) both before and after workouts my soreness has plumetted, yet i'm stil gaining.

The mirror and your log book are the two best friends you have to figure out if your having good workouts.

Baraka_Guru · 11-25-2007, 07:34 AM

Soreness might be an indicator that your body has gone into too much shock over a period of time (scientifically, it will include such things as lactic acid, etc., etc.), but as you body adapts, it will handle it better. At least, that's my experience. Whenever I start a routine after being out of it for a while, the first week or two can be a bit sore, but when I get into it, I find the soreness is almost non-existent. It's more of a fatigue localized in the muscle group I had worked the day or two before. I've even found I can push myself far, sometimes worrying I've pushed too far, yet the next few recovery days will say otherwise when the soreness doesn't come.

My best indicator(s) of a good workout?

High energy level throughout
Pushing weights with an unprecedented intensity
Pushing weights to an unprecedented set of repetitions
Pushing weights of an unprecedented mass

(i.e. Performance is my indicator of a good workout. It actually shows I'm building muscle. I don't need to see it, so much as feel it.)

Plan9 · 11-25-2007, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

My best indicator(s) of a good workout?

High energy level throughout
Pushing weights with an unprecedented intensity
Pushing weights to an unprecedented set of repetitions
Pushing weights of an unprecedented mass

Hahaha... you answered the question by not answering the question.

*watches BarakaGuru promoted to Captain Obvious rank*

What is it like being a genius? Is your head sore the day after?

Nice.

Baraka_Guru · 11-25-2007, 09:08 AM

I'm not so sure it's obvious.... getting sore does not equate to doing it right.

Sometimes one needs to spout out the obvious, as it is often easily overlooked.

You're forgetting, I'm informed by Buddhist teachings.... or.... maybe....

That's Major Obvious to you!

It's the Dr. Phil-style, yo.

Plan9 · 11-25-2007, 09:32 AM

I was simply suggesting that you stated the most obvious way to measure progress in a workout: future performance.

The "after burn" of a good workout has always let me know that I challenged myself correctly in that it went away and didn't linger as some kind of injury.

*busts out like the dickhead Bono on that latest album*

"I CAN FEEEEEEEL!"

Baraka_Guru · 11-25-2007, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

*busts out like the dickhead Bono on that latest album*

"I CAN FEEEEEEEL!"

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=11worst *kinda NSFW

/threadjack

11-23-2007, 10:15 AM	#1 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	Is soreness an indicator of a good workout? I've noticed that when I get into decent shape it's much much harder for me to get really sore after a workout. Am I getting lazy in my workouts or does the body adapt so that it doesn't get as sore anymore?

11-23-2007, 10:29 AM	#2 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Yes it does. Generally that "sore" feeling is lactic acid buildup. As you become more fit, your body produces less LA at the same exertion level. If you change the exertion level or the type of exertion, that adaption won't be as complete. Distance runners that start doing speed work generally find this out in a big hurry. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

11-23-2007, 11:55 AM	#5 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I don't know about all the science shit, but since I ran 10 miles in 73 minutes on Thanksgiving, I shall quote that popular Marine Corps bumper sticker: Pain is weakness leaving the body. One can expect physical exertion that results in the growth of muscle tissue to be painful. Feel the burn. No pain, no gain. ... Definitely read NGDawg's post later when your migraine subsides. A lot to be learned. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 11-23-2007 at 11:59 AM..

11-23-2007, 02:31 PM	#8 (permalink)
Ratman Addict Location: Somewhere... Across the sea...	Basically, the more you exercise, the more efficient your body becomes at dealing with lactic acid. There are two ways this happens. The first is that oxygen is used to convert lactic acid back to a form of usable energy. Your body learns to use oxygen more efficiently as the oxygen exchange in your lungs improves (aerobic). The second is the little bitty parts inside of muscle cells learn to use lactic acid as a energy source without conversion (anaerobic). You don't have to push harder, necessarily. You can create an artificial "oxygen debt" by breathing less often, say every 3-5 strides. You can also stress the oxygen exchange by running on a track and sprinting the straights, walking the curves for a couple of miles. Good luck with your goal! __________________ The difference between theory and reality is that in theory there is no difference. "God made man, but he used the monkey to do it." DEVO

11-23-2007, 02:40 PM	#9 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Army trick: Try running with a mouthful of water. Don't swallow the water. That'll challenge the shit out of you. Trust me. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

11-23-2007, 11:38 AM	#4 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	Recently I've been getting dizziness migraines from reading, could someone please sum up what that just said? I'm still not sure if my body has adapted or as I work out more I push myself less.

11-23-2007, 12:48 PM	#7 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	Congrats Cromp, that's roughly were I hope to be eventually (goal is to get there in ~6 months or so). Mostly endurance; running, push ups and sit ups. Let me rephrase my question. If I'm not getting as sore as I used to, should I push harder? And I know about the ligaments/tendons type stuff. I'm specifically talking about muscle soreness. Sorry if I'm being dense here. But no one seems to be able to give me a straight answer on how much I can/should push myself. I'm not sure what to aim for.

11-23-2007, 03:56 PM	#10 (permalink)
soma Addict Location: USA	After a workout, if I'm not sore the next day, I assume I'm not working out hard enough. Yeah. Your body can really adapt quickly! __________________ Having Girl Problems?

11-24-2007, 11:01 AM	#11 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	Thank you for the straight answer, Ratman. Hah, I'll try that Cromp, sounds like a fun challenge.

11-24-2007, 11:10 AM	#12 (permalink)
sphynx Upright	It is natural to be sore after you workout for the first time in awhile, normally that soreness goes away with time. Well at least the duration the soreness lasts does, you will normally always be sore after a workout...thats just the sign of a good workout, as I always say, if it hurts afterwards...it means it worked...unless you're in excruciating pain...that means you busted something. The funny thing about working out is that you're actually destroying your body to make it better, the trick is knowing how much to destroy it so the damage isn't permanent or too painful to bear. You'll know if you worked out too much; just do it in moderation, with a sensible diet, adequate rest, lots of fluids and you should be ship shape.

11-25-2007, 06:19 AM	#13 (permalink)
stevie667 Too Awesome for Aardvarks Location: Angloland	Soreness is not a good indicator of a good workout. Since i started streching more (or should i say at all) both before and after workouts my soreness has plumetted, yet i'm stil gaining. The mirror and your log book are the two best friends you have to figure out if your having good workouts. __________________ Office hours have changed. Please call during office hours for more information.

11-25-2007, 07:34 AM	#14 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Soreness might be an indicator that your body has gone into too much shock over a period of time (scientifically, it will include such things as lactic acid, etc., etc.), but as you body adapts, it will handle it better. At least, that's my experience. Whenever I start a routine after being out of it for a while, the first week or two can be a bit sore, but when I get into it, I find the soreness is almost non-existent. It's more of a fatigue localized in the muscle group I had worked the day or two before. I've even found I can push myself far, sometimes worrying I've pushed too far, yet the next few recovery days will say otherwise when the soreness doesn't come. My best indicator(s) of a good workout? High energy level throughout Pushing weights with an unprecedented intensity Pushing weights to an unprecedented set of repetitions Pushing weights of an unprecedented mass (i.e. Performance is my indicator of a good workout. It actually shows I'm building muscle. I don't need to see it, so much as feel it.) __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

11-25-2007, 09:08 AM	#16 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	I'm not so sure it's obvious.... getting sore does not equate to doing it right. Sometimes one needs to spout out the obvious, as it is often easily overlooked. You're forgetting, I'm informed by Buddhist teachings.... or.... maybe.... *That's Major* Obvious to you!** It's the Dr. Phil-style, yo. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

11-25-2007, 09:32 AM	#17 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I was simply suggesting that you stated the most obvious way to measure progress in a workout: future performance. The "after burn" of a good workout has always let me know that I challenged myself correctly in that it went away and didn't linger as some kind of injury. *busts out like the dickhead Bono on that latest album* "I CAN FEEEEEEEL!" __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."