Nice article on Homeopathy - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

robot_parade · 11-16-2007, 10:34 AM

http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/a-kind-of-magic/

Quote:

But when they’re suing people instead of arguing with them, telling people not to take their medical treatments, killing patients, running conferences on HIV fantasies, undermining the public’s understanding of evidence and, crucially, showing absolutely no sign of ever being able to engage in a sensible conversation about the perfectly simple ethical and cultural problems that their practice faces, I think: these people are just morons. I can’t help that: I’m human. The facts are sacred, but my view on them changes from day to day.

The article is the best summary I've yet read. It covers why homeopathy is both unscientific and dangerous.

I worry though - does this sort of thing change anyone's mind?

snowy · 11-16-2007, 10:52 AM

Homeopathy isn't dangerous--at least not in the United States (or shouldn't be, see proviso). The safety of homeopathic remedies in the U.S. is overseen by the FDA (not that that means much these days for anything, homeopathy or not).

The efficacy of homeopathy is obviously something to be debated. I've found the efficacy depends on the remedy itself--some, like drospera rotundifolia, are known for being anti-spasmodics and anti-inflammatory, and are being researched for use in conventional medicines. Topically applied arnica gel has been shown to be as effective as other topically applied NSAIDs in the treatment of osteoarthritis. My personal experience with arnica is that it helps tremendously to keep bruising and swelling down, so do you think your article against homeopathy is going to change my mind? No.

But here's the thing--we need to be wise consumers, and that applies to all medicine--allopathy, homeopathy, naturopathy. Plenty of conventional medical treatments come with risk and adverse side effects. For instance, the commercial for Lipitor says that in rare cases, patients may experience muscle pain or weakness. What they don't tell you is that that muscle weakness might leave you passed out on the floor at your place of business with no ability to explain to anyone what's wrong with you (true story, happened to my mother). Every treatment--even a well-respected statin drug like Lipitor--comes with some risk.

I'm a researcher of all things, so I don't choose remedies without looking into them first--and that applies to everything, conventional medicine and homeopathy. I like to know everything about what I'm putting into my body. I think if people aren't medically literate, they're just as likely to run into problems with the conventional medical establishment as they are with homeopathy.

cj2112 · 11-16-2007, 11:22 AM

While I am about as far from being new agey as one can get, the best remedy I found for colic when my kids were little was a homeopathic remedy. I have since passed this on to every person I know who has child has had issues w/ colic, and I swear everyone of them thanked me profusely.

Not all homeopathy is bad, not all conventional medicine is good, like Snowy said, you have to be a wise consumer.

robot_parade · 11-16-2007, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

Homeopathy isn't dangerous--at least not in the United States (or shouldn't be, see proviso). The safety of homeopathic remedies in the U.S. is overseen by the FDA (not that that means much these days for anything, homeopathy or not).

But apparently not to the same standards as other drugs, apparently:

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/096_home.html

Quote:

FDA regulates homeopathic drugs in several significantly different ways from other drugs. Manufacturers of homeopathic drugs are deferred from submitting new drug applications to FDA. Their products are exempt from good manufacturing practice requirements related to expiration dating and from finished product testing for identity and strength. Homeopathic drugs in solid oral dosage form must have an imprint that identifies the manufacturer and indicates that the drug is homeopathic. The imprint on conventional products, unless specifically exempt, must identify the active ingredient and dosage strength as well as the manufacturer.

(Obviously the identity and dosage requirements had to be dropped because homeopathic preperations generally don't *have* any active ingredients - which is why they don't work...)

However, the original artical makes the point in several different ways the homeopathy *is* dangerous. If you use a homeopathic preperation instead of a real drug, you are going untreated. This can obviously be very, very dangerous. It also brings up the point that since homeopathy is for some crazy reason being given special status and being treated as scientific when it is not. In fact, both in the actual practice of homeopathy, and in the homeopathic culture, are dangerously unscientific.

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

The efficacy of homeopathy is obviously something to be debated. I've found the efficacy depends on the remedy itself--some, like drospera rotundifolia, are known for being anti-spasmodics and anti-inflammatory, and are being researched for use in conventional medicines. Topically applied arnica gel has been shown to be as effective as other topically applied NSAIDs in the treatment of osteoarthritis. My personal experience with arnica is that it helps tremendously to keep bruising and swelling down, so do you think your article against homeopathy is going to change my mind? No.

This is the rub, though - it can not only be debated, it can be *tested* scientifically. And it has been. And, as the article points out, when actual, controlled, double-blind tests are done, it fails.

The remedies you mention - are you talking exclusively about homeopathic preperations, or herbal preperations as well (ie, preperations that include a significant amount of the substance in question?). For now, I'd like to stick with homeopathy, other than to mention these two points:

o Of course herbal treatments can work. Many drugs are derived from chemicals found in nature.
o For something to be medicine, it should be tested for safety and efficacy. For various reasons, herbal treatments are generally not well tested. This is a shame.

With regards to the 'arnica gel' you mention that "Topically applied arnica gel has been shown to be as effective as other topically applied NSAIDs in the treatment of osteoarthritis."

Is this a homeopathic remedy, or an herbal preperation?
Do you have a link to a study published in a peer-reviewed medical journal to back that up? Homeopathic journals don't count - from the original article:

Quote:

in 1995, only 1% of all articles published in alternative medicine journals gave a negative result. The most recent figure is 5% negative. This is very, very low.

Of course, even peer-reviewed journals are not perfect. They make mistakes. Sometimes the study is subtly flawed. But, if the editors of the journals, and the scientists publishing in them are honest and critical, we eventually improve our knowledge. If the journal, and the organizations around a given practice, are dishonest, self-serving, and uncritical, then nothing is gained. The science doesn't improve. I submit this is the case for homeopathy, and many, many other 'alternative' medical ideas.

Here's a page from the American Cancer Society I found with a quick google (not a primary source, but looks to be a good summary:

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/co...p?sitearea=ETO

Quote:

Available scientific evidence does not support most of the claims about its effectiveness. [...] It has caused a number of serious reactions, including allergies and at least one death.

And, in the 'What is the evidence' section, notice that multiple studies are cited - a single study could be flawed for any number of reasons. It could show an effect where none actually exists. It could miss a real effect. Or it could miss serious side effects. Multiple studies build up a consensus, and help inform responsible medical practitioners when prescribing drugs. Note that some of the studies refer to herbel preperations, and some to homeopathic remedies, and yet none of them showed any positive results.

But, on the other hand, you report great success with it. You don't mention whether it is a homeopathic or herbal preperation. If it's homeopathic, it doesn't work. Period. Homeopathy has been around for about 100 years now, and it hasn't been proven to work. Not only that, but there is no known scientific explanation for how it *could* work. At this point, if homeopathic preperations are ever shown to work by scientific consensus, I will eat my hat, and put the video on youtube.

If it's an herbal preperation, then your experience is at odds with what the studies show (according to that ACS website). Maybe it's the placebo effect. Maybe the particular brand you use is better than the ones used in the tests; maybe it has more of the ingredient, and is thus effective because the doses used in the tests weren't high enough. Maybe it's doctored with actual medicine (which has been known to happen - google for it).

Regardless, rather than go with one person's experience, the smart thing to do is to look for a scientific consensus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

But here's the thing--we need to be wise consumers, and that applies to all medicine--allopathy, homeopathy, naturopathy. Plenty of conventional medical treatments come with risk and adverse side effects. For instance, the commercial for Lipitor says that in rare cases, patients may experience muscle pain or weakness. What they don't tell you is that that muscle weakness might leave you passed out on the floor at your place of business with no ability to explain to anyone what's wrong with you (true story, happened to my mother). Every treatment--even a well-respected statin drug like Lipitor--comes with some risk.

I agree 100% with your statement that we need to be wise consumers. However. Drugs, like lipitor, are *tested* for safety and efficacy. Homeopathic remedies are generally not. Since homeopathic remedies are generally nothing more than sugar, water, and alcohol, they are certainly very safe, unless contaminated (manufacturing quality for homeopathic preperations is yet another issue). However, taking a drug that doesn't do anything means you probably aren't treating the condition, which could be very dangerous. Again, the original article covers this. Regular medicines are tested to ensure (to the best of our limited ability) that they are both effective and safe. Homeopathic remedies are not.

In your mother's case, it sounds like she had a very severe reaction - but it was a *known* side effect. Because the drug had been tested, her doctor could explain what was going on. I have no idea why her reaction might have been more severe - perhaps she had a drug interaction, or was just sensitive to the drug. That's unfortunate, but my point is, with 'traditional' medicines, if they are tested, and *continue* to be tested, and proper reporting is done on side-effects, then we can discover dangerous drugs, and pull them, or not use them on people who are at higher risk. Because of medical science.

Now. Medicine in general, and especially the drug industry, is in really, really terrible shape right now. For lots of reasons, and in lots of ways, things are in truly miserable shape. We could go on for hours about the hows and whys. However. Even with all it's flaws, science-based medicine is the *only* way to go. Everything else is just witch-doctoring under a fancier name.

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

I'm a researcher of all things, so I don't choose remedies without looking into them first--and that applies to everything, conventional medicine and homeopathy. I like to know everything about what I'm putting into my body. I think if people aren't medically literate, they're just as likely to run into problems with the conventional medical establishment as they are with homeopathy.

But if you do the research, the scientific consensus is that homeopathy does not work. Period. It has never been conclusively shown to be more effective than a placebo. It is almost certainly 'safe' in that it will produce zero side-effects - *because* it has no effect at all! Now, someone taking a placebo/homeopathic pill for a common cold isn't any worse off than someone who follows conventional medicine, because a common cold is (almost always) going to go away on it's own. Conventional medicine can't cure it. However, if you're taking homeopathic treatments for something more serious, you put yourself in jeopardy.

"There cannot be two kinds of medicine---conventional and alternative. There is only medicine that has been adequately tested and medicine that has not, medicine that works and medicine that may or may not work... If it is found to be reasonably safe and effective, it will be accepted."

(I'm not sure where exactly this is from, but it sums up my point nicely)

-RN

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj2112

While I am about as far from being new agey as one can get, the best remedy I found for colic when my kids were little was a homeopathic remedy. I have since passed this on to every person I know who has child has had issues w/ colic, and I swear everyone of them thanked me profusely.

Not all homeopathy is bad, not all conventional medicine is good, like Snowy said, you have to be a wise consumer.

But has it been scientifically tested? All the anecdotes in the world won't convince me. Proper testing will. I could come up with all sorts of hypothetical explanations as to why it seems to work for you and your friends. But my main point is - if it's tested, and found safe and effective, then great. If not...why use it?

Ustwo · 11-16-2007, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

Homeopathy isn't dangerous

Placebos never are.

When they stand up to a double blind study let me know.

cj2112 · 11-16-2007, 12:24 PM

That particular remedy has been tested and approved by the FDA.

Ustwo · 11-16-2007, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj2112

That particular remedy has been tested and approved by the FDA.

Tested how?

Homeopathy is always safe with no side effects, the same way water is safe.

robot_parade · 11-16-2007, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj2112

That particular remedy has been tested and approved by the FDA.

Approved for what?

http://www.quackwatch.com/01Quackery...opetition.html

Quote:

FDA Compliance Policy Guide 7132.15, issued in 1988, states that "nonprescription homeopathics may be sold only for self-limiting conditions recognizable by consumers . . . [Their] labeling must adequately instruct consumers in the product's safe use." However, the guide warns that compliance with its requirements "does not establish that [a product] has been shown by appropriate means to be safe, effective, and not misbranded for its intended use."

Unfortunately, the bar set for homeopathic and herbal preperations at the FDA is *not* the same as the one for real medicine. This is a case of the government letting us down. Too bad, really. On top of all the *other* problems with the FDA, they are actively participating in the homeopathic scam by putting their seal of approval on homeopathic preparations - leading people to think they are somehow tested for effectiveness.

Redlemon · 11-16-2007, 12:55 PM

We appear to have the whole "homeopathy versus herbal" thing going on again. Which are we arguing here?

Anyway, there was an article recently that found that many "herbal" erection remedies worked because.... they contained prescription drugs.

See The Associated Press: Herbal Sex Pills Pose Hidden Dangers.

robot_parade · 11-16-2007, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlemon

We appear to have the whole "homeopathy versus herbal" thing going on again. Which are we arguing here?

Anyway, there was an article recently that found that many "herbal" erection remedies worked because.... they contained prescription drugs.

See The Associated Press: Herbal Sex Pills Pose Hidden Dangers.

Personally, I'm sticking with the homeopathy side of things. Much more clear cut. :-)

ring · 11-16-2007, 01:36 PM

This is getting rather confusing.

Homeopathy.. herbal.. 'conventional medicine'

Self study on any subject ultimately leads to making a decision based on others perceived knowledge or actual experience.

The FDA has approved many medications that are now being questioned.

The, Seroquel - Causes Diabetes debate, and class action suits that have followed are a prime example.... of, of, I am losing my train of thought..

There are many threads to consider in this thread.

I look forward to reading more.

DaveOrion · 11-16-2007, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Placebos never are.

When they stand up to a double blind study let me know.

All these Drugs were FDA approved and certainly went through the ole double blind.....

Avandia

Ephedra (Ma Huang)

Crestor

Fen Phen (Redux)

Zelnorm

Baycol

Meridia

Neurontin

Prempro (HRT)

Celebrex

Risperdal

Pemoline (Cylert)

Rezulin

Vioxx

Bextra

The FDA gets much of its research funding from the pharmaceutical companys who make billions selling drugs that are improperly tested & unsafe.

They pharmaceutical companys certainly don't wont the public to buy or use homeopathic or herbal cures, they might lose a few $$$$$$.......or you may believe they're just concerned for your safety.....refer to the list of recalled FDA approved drugs........

Quote:

Groundbreaking new research has just been revealed that establishes the validity of homeopathy. It's being called the "holy grail" of homeopathy, and it has been published in the peer reviewed journal Inflammation Research. The study shows that a chemical dissolved in a solution (in such proportions that not even a single molecule of the original chemical could exist in the water) exhibits verifiable, scientifically proven biological effects. What this proves is that homeopathy is real. There's something about the homeopathic water that is different from regular water, and the biological effects are undeniable and easy to verify.
This, of course, is not new information for those who have been practicing homeopathy for many years, or to those who are familiar with holistic medicine, vibrational medicine, or other forms of medicine that go beyond the rather narrow definitions currently defended by conventional medicine. But of course, it is big news to many doctors, physicians, and western medical researchers, who have for decades insisted that homeopathy is quackery and that believing in homeopathy is the same as believing in magic. They say that water could not possibly exhibit a biological effect if it did not contain a single molecule of a biologically active substance. But now, of course, the science is quite real, and this isn't the first study to show that homeopathy is proven.

There have been other studies -- well-documented and well-constructed -- that also show the same effect. But these studies have been routinely ignored, and even shut out by medical journals simply because no one can quite explain how homeopathy works. To understand why this is such an important breakthrough in modern medicine, we have to go back to the 1800's and take a look at the origin of the so-called germ theory and how it relates to the invention of the microscope and the realization that disease could be spread by invisible microscopic creatures.

Today the germ theory is accepted as real and verifiable. But that's only because scientists and doctors can readily see these germs using microscopes. Before microscopes were invented, any doctor who proposed that disease could be caused by a doctor not washing his hands and touching two patients in sequence would have been called a lunatic or a quack. In fact, doctors did not engage in any sort of hand washing for the purpose of preventing the spread of disease until the germ theory became accepted.

The accidental father of the germ theory, a Hungarian physician known as Dr. Semmelweis, was fired and ostracized from the medical community in the mid 1800's for even proposing the idea that disease was caused by invisible, microscopic, undetectable organisms. In fact, after fighting to publicize the truth about microorganisms for fifteen years, Semmelweis was declared insane by doctors and committed to an insane asylum. (Sounds a lot like modern medicine, doesn't it?)

In other words, in the history of medicine, doctors and researchers didn't believe in the germ theory for one simple reason: they couldn't see the germs. There was no way they could detect these germs, so in their minds, they didn't exist. As a result, they continued to practice outdated medical procedures which actually resulted in the spread of germs from one patient to another.

Here's how this applies to homeopathy: today, the scientific evidence proves that homeopathy really works. No sane, rational person could deny it after reviewing the evidence proving the biological activity of homeopathic water. But instead of denying the existence of homeopathy on the grounds that it doesn't work, modern doctors and researchers deny it based on the rather feeble idea that they don't understand the mechanism by which it might work. That is, they don't know how it works, and therefore it must not be true. And that's about as intelligent as saying "We don't know how gravity works, therefore, there is no such thing as gravity."

Granted, homeopathy is somewhat mysterious. It is curious in the way that it works through the use of subtle energies. Apparently, water has a memory, and there's a fantastic book on this called The Memory of Water that will show you in great detail, with colorful pictures, exactly how water is reshaped by different energetic and emotional vibrations.

It's all quite real -- water takes on a different molecular structure when it is prayed over versus when angry people shout at it. Now, if you take a substance like the one used in this study, which was histamine, and you put a drop of histamine in a glass of pure, distilled water, that water, of course, contains a solution of histamine. But if you dilute that by taking one drop out of that entire glass and putting it into another glass of water, then you have another mixture of water that is diluted by a factor of 100 or more. If you do that over and over again and follow a sequence of increasing dilutions, you end up with a solution of water that has no molecules of histamine in it whatsoever.

But, as this study shows, this water retains the memory of histamine, and when this water is given to a biological system, such as a person or an animal, it will produce effects that are attributed to the histamine and that are clinically observable and quite unique to the vibration of histamine.

Of course there are many skeptics out there who will continue to say there is no such thing as homeopathy. They will deny the clinical evidence that's put right in front of their faces, and even if they were to conduct these experiments on their own and produce the exact same verifiable scientifically proven results, they would continue to deny it. Why is that?

It's because they don't understand it, and they don't have the imagination or creativity to suppose that nature might hold some surprises for us yet. They are people who represent the epitome of mankind's arrogance. They think they understand everything there is to know about the way the universe works, and that nature is apparent and nothing new will be learned. They think that if you can't see it, it doesn't exist, and thus I wonder how they even believe in gravity or electromagnetism or quantum physics, for that matter.

Nevertheless, the end result of this is that the amazing James Randi will probably end up being $1 million poorer because he has been so foolish as to offer a $1 million reward to the first person who can prove the scientific validity of homeopathy. Well, apparently this proof has already been completed, and now it will probably be a game of continued denials from James Randi in order to avoid paying out the $1 million reward. He will probably say, "Okay, the lab results look solid, but until you can explain how it works, it's not proven." And that's how he will deny actually paying the claim to people who have now scientifically proven that homeopathy is real -- something Randi adamantly insists is untrue.

By the way, to comment more on good science, kudos go out to the editor of Inflammation Research, a medical journal that has demonstrated the courage to publish a pioneering paper that most other medical journals would have rejected. And this again speaks to the closed-circle, dogmatic attitude of most peer reviewed medical journals. They define the so-called truths of modern science and modern medicine by selecting those studies and papers that support their current beliefs. Simultaneously, they reject all papers that challenge those beliefs, and that's how things that are true but unconventional (such as homeopathy) can be kept out of the minds of modern doctors and researchers.

But this journal, Inflammation Research, was willing to publish a pioneering paper, and at the same time, the researchers involved in this study -- none of which were from the United States, by the way -- are also to be applauded for their willingness to venture beyond the strict confines of conventional medicine and explore the way the universe really works.

Let's face it, folks -- as men and women on this planet, we are but children. We are all students of the universe, just attempting to understand the way things work... and barely scratching the surface in doing so. We know so little about the universe and about the way subtle energies operate. I don't think there's a single person alive today who truly understands the simple interaction of tabletop magnets, for one thing. I don't think there's anyone alive today who understands quantum physics, and who can really explain how it is that the entire universe is made up of probability waves of vibrating energy rather than physical matter.

I don't think there's anyone who can really explain or understand how light can be both a particle and a wave at the same time, depending on how you look at it. I don't think people can explain how properties of spinning subatomic particles can be instantly teleported from one place to another, regardless of the distance, without requiring any time whatsoever. I don't think people can explain how prayer alters the health outcome of patients, even when the patients aren't aware that they are being prayed for. (This is called "non-local medicine.")

These are just some of the many mysteries that continue to present opportunities for open-minded, smart thinkers to explore. Fortunately, there are some scientists who continue to be open-minded, and who are willing to ask these questions of nature, because that's what a true scientist does -- they ask questions of nature and they listen to whatever responses come back.

People like Dr. Stephen Barrett and James Randi are not scientists at all. They are, in every sense, feeble-minded skeptics who probably don't even believe in their own souls. I bet they didn't see this one coming -- homeopathy is real, folks. It's been proven, and it's been proven in a way that meets the most demanding requirements of the scientific method. If you are a true scientist, and you review the available studies on homeopathy, you either have to conclude that homeopathy is real, or you have to conclude that every law of science and truth upon which modern medicine is based is invalid.

###

About the author: Mike Adams is a natural health researcher and author with a passion for teaching people how to improve their health He has authored more than 1,500 articles and dozens of reports, guides and interviews on natural health topics, reaching millions of readers with information that is saving lives and improving personal health around the world. Adams is a trusted, independent journalist who receives no money or promotional fees whatsoever to write about other companies' products. In 2007, Adams launched EcoLEDs, a manufacturer of mercury-free, energy-efficient LED lighting products that save electricity and help prevent global warming. He also launched an online retailer of environmentally-friendly products (BetterLifeGoods.com) and uses a portion of its profits to help fund non-profit endeavors. He's also a veteran of the software technology industry, having founded a personalized mass email software product used to deliver email newsletters to subscribers. Adams is currently the executive director of the Consumer Wellness Center, a 501(c)3 non-profit, and practices nature photography, Capoeira, Pilates and organic gardening. Known as the 'Health Ranger,' Adams' personal health statistics and mission statements are located at www.HealthRanger.org

http://www.newstarget.com/001951.html

Ustwo · 11-16-2007, 02:00 PM

Dave lovely article from an alternative medicine anti-real medicine site, but lets see this real article.

Someone from a site dedicated to show you how the medical industry is out to get you claims there is a ground breaking paper.

Lets see it, otherwise its so many words.

ring · 11-16-2007, 02:08 PM

The FDA only pulls medications from the grasps of 'The drug companies'
when the overwhelming evidence is even great enough for the lay-person to grasp.

I am looking for the link...

Somebody help me out here.

snowy · 11-16-2007, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robot_parade

In your mother's case, it sounds like she had a very severe reaction - but it was a *known* side effect. Because the drug had been tested, her doctor could explain what was going on.

Actually, her doctor had no idea what was going on. She went to several specialists, including a seizure clinic at a major research hospital, in order to figure out what was causing this problem. She was diagnosed with epilepsy in her temporal lobe and put on seizure medication, but it did not clear up the problem. Finally, my father made the connection while watching a Lipitor commercial.

Quote:

Now. Medicine in general, and especially the drug industry, is in really, really terrible shape right now. For lots of reasons, and in lots of ways, things are in truly miserable shape. We could go on for hours about the hows and whys. However. Even with all it's flaws, science-based medicine is the *only* way to go. Everything else is just witch-doctoring under a fancier name.

But if you do the research, the scientific consensus is that homeopathy does not work. Period. It has never been conclusively shown to be more effective than a placebo. It is almost certainly 'safe' in that it will produce zero side-effects - *because* it has no effect at all! Now, someone taking a placebo/homeopathic pill for a common cold isn't any worse off than someone who follows conventional medicine, because a common cold is (almost always) going to go away on it's own. Conventional medicine can't cure it. However, if you're taking homeopathic treatments for something more serious, you put yourself in jeopardy.

"There cannot be two kinds of medicine---conventional and alternative. There is only medicine that has been adequately tested and medicine that has not, medicine that works and medicine that may or may not work... If it is found to be reasonably safe and effective, it will be accepted."

(I'm not sure where exactly this is from, but it sums up my point nicely)

-RN

But has it been scientifically tested? All the anecdotes in the world won't convince me. Proper testing will. I could come up with all sorts of hypothetical explanations as to why it seems to work for you and your friends. But my main point is - if it's tested, and found safe and effective, then great. If not...why use it?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en..._uids=17318618

As for the homeopathy/herbal thing--a lot of homeopathic remedies are herbal remedies. Some are mineral-based. I'm not saying I use homeopathic remedies to treat bodily humors or some such ridiculous notion (which would be true homeopathy), rather I am using homeopathic medicines that are largely herbal and typically have been empirically shown to have some kind of benefit, such as the arnica gel.

There are plenty of quacky ideas out there on the homeopathic side of things, including the entire basis of homeopathy--treating bodily humors. However, the remedies themselves should not be dismissed out of hand simply for being homeopathic; rather, they should be taken on a case-by-case basis by the user. Because of the power of the placebo effect, the consumer should have the right to decide what works for them when it comes to homeopathy.

I should note that most of the homeopathic remedies I buy are produced by Boiron USA and Nelsons. Both companies have excellent safety records in regards to their product. So even if they are just sugar pills--they are safe. They are not fly-by-night herbal diet supplement manufacturers. Nelsons has been around since 1860, and Boiron has been around since 1932.

Ustwo · 11-16-2007, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

Actually, her doctor had no idea what was going on. She went to several specialists, including a seizure clinic at a major research hospital, in order to figure out what was causing this problem. She was diagnosed with epilepsy in her temporal lobe and put on seizure medication, but it did not clear up the problem. Finally, my father made the connection while watching a Lipitor commercial.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en..._uids=17318618

As for the homeopathy/herbal thing--a lot of homeopathic remedies are herbal remedies. Some are mineral-based. I'm not saying I use homeopathic remedies to treat bodily humors or some such ridiculous notion (which would be true homeopathy), rather I am using homeopathic medicines that are largely herbal and typically have been empirically shown to have some kind of benefit, such as the arnica gel.

There are plenty of quacky ideas out there on the homeopathic side of things, including the entire basis of homeopathy--treating bodily humors. However, the remedies themselves should not be dismissed out of hand simply for being homeopathic; rather, they should be taken on a case-by-case basis by the user. Because of the power of the placebo effect, the consumer should have the right to decide what works for them when it comes to homeopathy.

I should note that most of the homeopathic remedies I buy are produced by Boiron USA and Nelsons. Both companies have excellent safety records in regards to their product. So even if they are just sugar pills--they are safe. They are not fly-by-night herbal diet supplement manufacturers. Nelsons has been around since 1860, and Boiron has been around since 1932.

Actually they should be 100% safe, they are not herbal either. Herbal medicine IS real, its affects are debatable but herbs are SOMETHING.

Herbals problem is the lack of regulation allows snake oil to be sold as 'herbal', but there is nothing wrong or unscientific about herbal remedies, they are as old as mankind and formed the basis for pharmacology.

Homeopathy's problem is that its 100% pure snake oil in any form, for any condition, at any time.

This is the kind of thing that tempts me to figure out how much it would cost to package and make placebos and market them as homeopathic medicine. Overhead has got to be next to nil after initial investment.

ring · 11-16-2007, 02:37 PM

If I am not mistaken, from what I have read and what my mother has told me (she is a retired R.N.) Homeopathy is based on introducing small amounts of any substance into the body that in time will develop an immunity type of response?

I can see why people think of this as hocus-pocus, yet how do I explain the fact that I have been drinking 'city water' and have suffered no obvious effects from the poison we all believe it to be?

Way too many variables, in all matters, ya think?

I need data.

All I have seen in any link or article is conjecture.

robot_parade · 11-16-2007, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

All these Drugs were FDA approved and certainly went through the ole double blind.....

Avandia

Ephedra (Ma Huang)

[...snip...]

I'm certainly not going to start defending the FDA - the problems with said agency are numerous, to say the least. I assume all the drugs you list turned out to have negative side effects, I only recognize a couple of them. The thing is, medical science is what allows us to *discover* the problems with these drugs in the first place. It's interesting to note ephedra on your list, since it's an herbal supplement, *not* a conventional drug! The wikipedia article covers it pretty well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephedra

The key problem with the FDA and herbal supplements is that they are *not* required (or allowed, as I understand it) to test them for safety and efficacy, like they do for normal drugs.

Regardless, I'd like to confine this discussion to homeopathy as much as possible, not herbal supplements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

The FDA gets much of its research funding from the pharmaceutical companys who make billions selling drugs that are improperly tested & unsafe.

They pharmaceutical companys certainly don't wont the public to buy or use homeopathic or herbal cures, they might lose a few $$$$$$.......or you may believe they're just concerned for your safety.....refer to the list of recalled FDA approved drugs........

The FDA sucks, no doubt about it. I don't place evil conspiracies, or conventional medicine. I blame a poorly run, underfunded FDA, shackled by poor laws, and working much too closely with the industry it's supposed to monitor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

http://www.newstarget.com/001951.html

This is the Jacques Benveniste study, I believe. James Randi put the smack down on that:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon...meopathy.shtml

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

Actually, her doctor had no idea what was going on. She went to several specialists, including a seizure clinic at a major research hospital, in order to figure out what was causing this problem. She was diagnosed with epilepsy in her temporal lobe and put on seizure medication, but it did not clear up the problem. Finally, my father made the connection while watching a Lipitor commercial.

I'm sorry her doctors weren't able to help, and I'm glad she's doing better. As I said before, there are *lots* of problems with the current medical system. But, the underlying science of evidence-based medicine is sound, and the only way to go.

Quote:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en..._uids=17318618

Alright, so maybe this stuff does work - one study isn't solid proof, but it's a start. However, the substance described does not sound like a homeopathic remedy to me - it's an herbal remedy. "arnica (50 g tincture/100 g, DER 1:20)" means the herb is actually present in the cream used, if I'm not mistaken. Homeopathic remedies are dilute to the point where they generally don't have a single molecule of the original substance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

As for the homeopathy/herbal thing--a lot of homeopathic remedies are herbal remedies. Some are mineral-based. I'm not saying I use homeopathic remedies to treat bodily humors or some such ridiculous notion (which would be true homeopathy), rather I am using homeopathic medicines that are largely herbal and typically have been empirically shown to have some kind of benefit, such as the arnica gel.

Ah, here's the rub.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

Quote:

Substances, which in large quantities would cause symptoms similar to the disease, are administered in heavily diluted formulations. According to homeopathic belief, the process of serial dilution, with shaking at each stage of the dilution, removes any negative side-effects of the treatment and retains therapeutic powers, even past the point where no molecules of the original substance are likely to remain.

*That's* homeopathy. If there's more than a few molecules of the 'stuff' in question, then it's not homeopathy. Homeopathy is essentially magic - based upon things like 'the law of similars'. Most homeopathic preperations are so dilute the it's likey that not a single molecule of the target substance is still present. Not one molecule. Homeopaths claim that the water has some sort of 'memory'. They tend to wax philisophical about metaphysics, and use scientific terms they don't understand, strung together in random ways. Homeopathic treatments in general aren't tested, period. And when they are tested in proper trials, they fail.

To me, it sounds like you're using is an herbal remedy. Herbel preperations have their own host of problems, but I'm trying desperately to stick to homeopathy here. Herbel remedies at least have a chance of having some effect. Homeopathic ones, not so much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

There are plenty of quacky ideas out there on the homeopathic side of things, including the entire basis of homeopathy--treating bodily humors. However, the remedies themselves should not be dismissed out of hand simply for being homeopathic; rather, they should be taken on a case-by-case basis by the user. Because of the power of the placebo effect, the consumer should have the right to decide what works for them when it comes to homeopathy.

I should note that most of the homeopathic remedies I buy are produced by Boiron USA and Nelsons. Both companies have excellent safety records in regards to their product. So even if they are just sugar pills--they are safe. They are not fly-by-night herbal diet supplement manufacturers. Nelsons has been around since 1860, and Boiron has been around since 1932.

I don't know anything about the companies in question - but...if they are sugar pills, and someone uses them instead of a real medicine that would save their life, they are not safe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ring

If I am not mistaken, from what I have read and what my mother has told me (she is a retired R.N.) Homeopathy is based on introducing small amounts of any substance into the body that in time will develop an immunity type of response?

Nope. Most homeopathic preparations are so dilute, that NOT A SINGLE MOLECULE OF THE SUBSTANCE REMAINS. Not one. How does that work, you ask? It doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ring

I can see why people think of this as hocus-pocus, yet how do I explain the fact that I have been drinking 'city water' and have suffered no obvious effects from the poison we all believe it to be?

Way too many variables, in all matters, ya think?

I need data.

All I have seen in any link or article is conjecture.

Check out the wikipedia article on homeopathy, and the original article I quoted above. A good start, right there. There are, however, lots, and lots, and lots of quack sites with bogus or ridiculous information. Ask yourself 'why should I trust this?' when reading.

Homeopathy is also based upon the theory that a substance that will produce the symptoms, when diluted according to homeopathic technique (again, so much so that probably not a single molecule survives) will cure the symptoms.

So, here's my homeopathic cure for cavities:

Take 2 1/2 tablespoons of sugar, and dissolve it in a gallon of water. Make sure it's really dissolved, then shake it.

Pour out all but 2 1/2 tablespoons of water. This is C1 dilution.

Fill the gallon jug back up. Shake, pour out all but 2 1/2 tablespoons again. Now you're at C2.

Do this 18 more times, and you're at C20. There's probably not one molecute of sugar remaining, yet, according to homeopathic principles, you have an amazing cavity-fighting solution! Drink a glass every day to keep the dentist away.

In fact, the above will probably actually help keep cavities away, if you used flouridated water. :-)

Redlemon · 11-19-2007, 05:54 AM

My question about the memory of water: what about everything else that the water has touched over the last million years? Along with everything that the bottle in which it was stored has touched?

Ustwo · 11-19-2007, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlemon

My question about the memory of water: what about everything else that the water has touched over the last million years? Along with everything that the bottle in which it was stored has touched?

Thats a good question.

Part of the homeopathic silliness is based around the shaking of said water, but just think what wave action must do.

Every drop of desalinated water must be incredibly toxic!

Very good observation.

Edit: woops I forgot that in homeopathy, you ADD the poison/toxin to the water in order to make it 'cure' you. So no sea water wouldn't be toxic, it should be a cure all. Likewise though, anything 'good' in water should by default be toxic. Mmmmm how does this all work again? I'm getting confused and my vaunted logic and science can't help me figure it out.

ring · 11-19-2007, 05:21 PM

We won't even think about 'heavy water'

hrandani · 11-19-2007, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

But here's the thing--we need to be wise consumers, and that applies to all medicine--allopathy, homeopathy, naturopathy. Plenty of conventional medical treatments come with risk and adverse side effects. For instance, the commercial for Lipitor says that in rare cases, patients may experience muscle pain or weakness. What they don't tell you is that that muscle weakness might leave you passed out on the floor at your place of business with no ability to explain to anyone what's wrong with you (true story, happened to my mother). Every treatment--even a well-respected statin drug like Lipitor--comes with some risk.

Defending homeopathy by invoking the many abuses of pharm companies, e.g. Lipitor is like defending Hitler by invoking Stalin. There's a middle ground between ridiculous, unproven cockamamie crap and script happy delerium.

DaveOrion · 11-20-2007, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrandani

Defending homeopathy by invoking the many abuses of pharm companies, e.g. Lipitor is like defending Hitler by invoking Stalin. There's a middle ground between ridiculous, unproven cockamamie crap and script happy delerium.

Yes there is a middle ground but most Americans have no fuckin idea where that is......

Quote:

The number of prescriptions has swelled by two-thirds over the past decade to 3.5 billion yearly, according to IMS Health, a pharmaceutical consulting company. Americans devour even more nonprescription drugs, polling suggests.Recently, safety questions have beset some depression and anti-inflammatory drugs, pushing pain relievers Vioxx and — most recently — Bextra from the market.

Rising ranks of doctors, researchers and public health experts are saying that America is overmedicating itself. It is buying and taking far too much medicine, too readily and carelessly, for its own health and wealth, they say.Well over 125,000 Americans die from drug reactions and mistakes each year, according to Associated Press projections from landmark medical studies of the 1990s.

Do we need all these drugs? A relative handful yank many people away from almost certain death, like some antibiotics and AIDS medicines. Though carrying some risk, other drugs — such as cholesterol-cutting statins — help a considerable minority dodge potential calamities like heart attack or stroke.The right balance of risk and benefit is still harder to strike for a raft of heavily promoted drugs that treat common, persistent, daily life conditions: like anti-inflammatories, antacids, and pills for allergy, depression, shyness, premenstrual crankiness, waning sexual powers, impulsiveness in children — you name it.

“We are taking way too many drugs for dubious or exaggerated ailments,” says Dr. Marcia Angell, former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine and author of “The Truth About the Drug Companies.”“What the drug companies are doing now is promoting drugs for long-term use to essentially healthy people. Why? Because it’s the biggest market.”In fact, relatively few pharmaceutical newcomers greatly improve the health of patients over older drugs or advance the march of medicine. Last year, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration classified about three-quarters of newly approved drugs as similar to existing ones.

http://www.glycoexpert.com/over-medicated-america.htm

And while homeopathy does appear to be quite the joke, taking a water placebo would seem to be better than mixing 10 different prescription medications.......

I only posted the homeopathy study to see if I could get a rise out of certain members......and predictably, I did.....

But..... there are many herbal remedies that work just as well, if not better than their prescription counterparts.....

Quote:

)1 Aloe Vera for Burns

Sometimes studies tell us what we already know. Aloe vera is the herb for minor burns, a fact that was confirmed most recently in the Journal of the Medical Association of Thailand. Keep a potted aloe on your kitchen sill; it requires no care beyond weekly watering. For minor burns, snip off a thick leaf and slit it open; scoop out the gel from the inner leaf and apply to the burn.

(2) Black Cohosh for Menopause

The Algonquin Indians used black cohosh to treat gynecological ills, and it was a key part of Lydia E. Pinkham's Vegetable Compound, sold in the 1870s to treat "female complaints and weaknesses." In a recent German study on menopausal hot flashes, subjects were given estrogen, a Valium-like tranquilizer or black cohosh (Remifemin, two tablets twice a day). The herb, which is an option for women who can't take estrogen, worked best. "The vast majority of studies show benefit," says Mark Blumenthal, executive director of the American Botanical Council.

(3) Boswellia for Arthritis and Joint Injuries

Did the three wise men suffer aches and pains from their long camel ride? Luckily, they had frankincense, aka boswellia, a traditional Ayurvedic medicine for arthritis and joint injuries. In a study published in Alternative and Complementary Therapies, Egyptian researchers gave people with osteoarthritis of the knee boswellia and turmeric or a placebo. After three months, the herb group showed significantly greater relief from knee swelling.

(4) Chamomile for Digestive Problems

"Chamomile tea, perhaps the best-known herbal tisane, is widely employed as a digestive remedy throughout Europe, and its therapeutic use is well documented," says David Hoffman, author of Medical Herbalism. The herb relaxes spasms of the smooth muscles and counters inflammation in the gut lining; it also has antiseptic and vasodilatory effects. Allergic reactions are possible, especially if you're sensitive to ragweed.(5) Chaste Tree for Premenstrual Syndrome

It won't preserve virginity, but chaste tree has hormonal effects that minimize monthly symptoms. When 1,634 German PMS sufferers took chaste tree, 93 percent reported benefit. In tests against two other popular treatments, vitamin [B.sub.6] and Prozac, the herb worked as well as the drug and better than the vitamin. "Chaste tree is the best herb for PMS," says James A. Duke, Ph.D., author of The Green Pharmacy. "It's safe and the studies are convincing. "Just be patient: It can take three months to experience benefit. Some women report stomach distress, headache and increased menstrual flow.

(6) Coffee for Athletic Stamina

The caffeine in coffee or tea stimulates not only alertness (and jitters and insomnia), but also athletic performance. Korean researchers at the Institute for Elderly Health in Seoul asked athletes to ride stationary cycles until they felt exhausted--before and after drinking the equivalent of one tall Starbucks coffee. After their java break, they were able to ride significantly longer.

(7) Coffee for Pain Relief

Anacin and Excedrin claim that their "extra ingredient" provides greater pain relief. What is it? Caffeine. Many reports, including one in the Archives of Internal Medicine, have shown that adding about 65 milligrams of caffeine to aspirin, ibuprofen or acetaminophen increases pain relief by around 40 percent. Caffeine blocks pain perception, has pain-relieving action, and elevates mood, which also helps minimize pain. Next time you have a headache, wash down your favorite pain pill with coffee or tea for more relief.

(8) Coffee as a Decongestant in Colds, Flu and Ssthma

Caffeine opens narrowed bronchial tubes, according to Joe and Teresa Graedon, authors of The People's Pharmacy. According to a report in the Annals of Epidemiology, the odds of experiencing current asthma symptoms were reduced 29 percent for subjects who drank coffee on a regular basis when compared with non-coffee drinkers.

(9) Cranberry for Urinary-Tract Infection

Cranberry prevents bacteria from sticking to the bladder wall long enough to cause an infection. Finnish researchers divided 150 recurrent UTI sufferers into three groups. One drank cranberry juice (50 milliliters a day). Another took Lactobacillus. The third took nothing. After six months, 36 percent of the no-treatment group and 39 percent of the Lactobacillus group reported at least one recurrence. Of the juice drinkers, only 16 percent had recurrences. Other options are dried cranberries (Craisins) and cranberry-extract capsules. "I recommend cranberry for UTI," Duke says. "But if you drink the juice, you have to drink a lot. It's usually easier to munch on the dried berries or take capsules."

(10) Echinacea for Colds and Flu

The root of this daisy-like flower revs up the immune system. According to an analysis by University of Wisconsin researchers, in eight of nine studies evaluating echinacea for upper-respiratory infections, the herb reduced symptoms and accelerated recovery compared with placebos. "As soon as I feel a cold coming on, I take it--and my cold is mild and brief," says Duke. Echinacea is available in teas and capsules, though most herbalists prefer tinctures. Liquid echinacea products may cause temporary, harmless numbing or tingling of the tongue; minor stomach upset is possible with tinctures.

(11) Evening Primrose Oil for Lowering Cholesterol

Evening primrose seeds contain an oil with a high concentration of compounds rarely found in plants: essential fatty acids, specifically gamma-linolenic acid. In one study, reported in The Review of Natural Products, 79 people with high cholesterol took 4 grams of Efamol every day for three months (which provides about 320 mg of GLA), and their average cholesterol level fell 31.5 percent. The suggested dose for evening primrose oil starts at 1-gram gelcaps twice or three times a day. High cholesterol requires professional care, so consult your physician about GLA.

(12) Evening Primrose Oil for Rheumatoid Arthritis

The EFAs in EPO are also a powerful anti-inflammatory. University of Pennsylvania researchers gave 37 arthritis sufferers borage oil (which contains GLA) or a placebo, The placebo had no effect, but the herb group reported 45 percent less pain with no side effects. Other studies utilizing GLA obtained similar results. Rheumatoid arthritis requires professional care, so consult your physician about GLA.

(13) Feverfew for Migraine Prevention

British scientists at the University of Exeter analyzed six studies of feverfew, concluding that the herb significantly reduces the frequency of migraine occurrence. "In my experience," Duke says, "feverfew prevents migraines in about two-thirds of those who use it consistently." Dosage is generally 50 to 150 mg per day of powdered leaves.

(14) Flaxseed for Menopausal Discomfort

Safety concerns have reduced the number of women on hormone replacement therapy, but flaxseed is rich in phytoestrogens (plant estrogens) that can take the heat out of hot flashes. At Laval University in Quebec, Canada, researchers gave 25 menopausal women HRT or flaxseed (1.4 ounces per day, mixed into food). After six months, flaxseed relieved hot flashes as effectively as HRT.

(15) Flaxseed for Osteoporosis

Because flaxseed is a natural hormone replacement therapy, it also mimics HRT's bone-preserving ability. Oklahoma State researchers gave a placebo or flaxseed (1.3 ounces per day) to 38 postmenopausal women for 14 weeks, and measured blood and urine for markers of bone loss and regrowth. The flaxseed group showed decreased bone resorption and calcium excretion, indicating reduced bone loss.

(16) Garlic as an Antibiotic

From ancient times through World War I, garlic has been used to treat the wounded. During the 1920s, researchers at Sandoz Pharmaceuticals in Switzerland isolated garlic's antibiotic compound, alliin, which has no medicinal value until the herb is chewed, chopped or crushed. Then an enzyme transforms alliin into a powerful antibiotic called allicin. Modern antibiotics are more potent and easier to take (just try chewing a dozen raw cloves), but if you're concerned about ulcers, use more garlic in your diet. Researchers at the University of Washington have shown that garlic kills H. pylori, the bacteria that cause ulcers. Raw garlic has the most antibiotic potency, but garlic still has benefits when cooked. "I use lots of garlic in cooking," Duke says, "for reasons of taste and health."

(17) Garlic for Cholesterol Control

Researchers at New York Medical College in Valhalla analyzed five studies and found that one-half to one clove of garlic per day reduces cholesterol by 9 percent. If you'd rather not eat fresh garlic every day, garlic supplements, including "deodorized" brands. have a similar effect. (Supplements with proven benefit include Kwai and Kvolic.) "Garlic doesn't work as well as the statin drugs," says Blumenthal, "so if your numbers are really high, you may need medication. But if your cholesterol s just mildly elevated or if it's normal and you want to keep it that way, garlic definitely helps." Garlic can impair blood clotting; if you notice increased bruising, stop taking it. and consult your physician.

(18) Garlic for Cancer Prevention

Garlic reduces the risk of several cancers. In the long-term Iowa Women's Health Study. researchers followed 41,837 middle-aged women. Subjects who ate the most garlic had the lowest risk of colon cancer. A few cloves a week cut risk by 32 percent and greater intake decreased risk even more While fruit and vegetable consumption in general helps prevent cancel in this study, garlic yielded the greatest preventive benefit of all the plant foods analyzed. Other studies have shown that garlic helps lower risk for prostate and bladder cancers.

(19) Ginger for Motion Sickness

In ancient China, sailors chewed ginger root to prevent motion sickness and modern studies have confirmed that ginger prevents nausea and vomiting. Danish scientists at Svendborg Hospital observed 80 naval cadets in heavy seas and found that those who took ginger experienced 72 percent less seasickness than a placebo group. Take a 1-gram capsule of powdered ginger root about an hour before you embark, and another every two hours or as needed (without exceeding 10 grams a day) during a journey, Ginger's only side effect is occasional minor heartburn. "t use ginger myself." Duke says, "It works for me."

(20) Ginger for Morning Sickness

Speaking of nausea, ginger also assists in preventing morning sickness. In a stud'. published in Obstetrics and Gynecology, researchers at Thailand's Chiang Mai University gave 70 nausea-plagued pregnant women ginger powder (1 gram a day) or a placebo. In the latter group, 28 percent reported relief But in the ginger group, the figure was 88 percent, use the dose given in the study, or brew a tea using 2 teaspoons of freshly grated root per cup of boiling water.

(21) Ginkgo for Alzheimer's Disease

The big study was published in 1997 in the journal of the American Medical Association: Researchers n a multicenter study gave 202 people with Alzheimer's either a placebo or ginkgo extract (120 mg a day). A year later, the ginkgo group retained more mental function, and subsequent studies have corroborated this finding. Ginkgo Improves blood flow around the body--including through the brain. It's safe. but it has anticoagulant properties, so increased bruising is possible.

(22) Ginkgo for Mental Acuity

Beyond its benefits for Alzheimer's, four recent studies show that ginkgo improves mental function in people who are cognitively normal, In a study published in Phytotherapy Research. 31 health, adults, ages 30 to 59, received ginkgo (120 to 300 mg a day) or a placebo, The herbs significantly improved several measures of memory. Buy a standardized extract and take 120 to 240 mg a day.

(23) Ginkgo for Erection and Libido Problems

Ginkgo improves blood flow into the genitals. In a study published in the Journal of Urology, 60 men with erection problems caused by narrowed arteries and impaired blood flow to the penis were given ginkgo (60 mg a day); after six months, half had regained erection ability. When researchers at the University of Hawaii and Stanford University tested ArginMax, a sexual-enhancement supplement that contains ginkgo, ginseng and L-arginine, 80 percent of the male subjects had improved erection function, while 74 percent of the female subjects reported more libido, less dryness and greater frequency of orgasm.

(24) Ginkgo for Anti-Depressant-Induced Sex Problems

An enormous number of Americans take antidepressants, The relief comes at a price: a substantial risk of libido loss erection impairment, vaginal dryness and inability to reach orgasm. Investigators at the University of California at San Francisco gave ginkgo (209 mg a day) to 63 people suffering from antidepressant-induced sex problems. The herb helped 91 percent of the women and 76 percent of the men to return to normal sexual function

(25) Ginkgo for Altitude Sickness

Traveling from a low elevation up to the mountains often produces symptoms of altitude sickness, such as headache, sluggishness and excessive thirst, due to the decrease in available oxygen. (Over a few days. the body makes more red blood cells, which boosts oxygenation of the blood.) Researchers at the Hopital de Chamonix in France gave 44 mountaineers ascending the Himalayas ginkgo (80 mg twice daily) or a placebo. In the latter group, 82 percent developed respiratory problems related to altitude sickness, but among the ginkgo users, the figure was only 14 percent.

(26) Ginseng for Athletic Stamina

Many athletes take ginseng as part of their training. In a study published in Clinical Therapy, Italian researchers gave 50 physical education teachers a placebo or ginseng (with some vitamins and minerals), and then had them run on a treadmill, Hearts and lungs in the ginseng group worked more efficiently, and those subjects' stamina increased significantly, Ginseng is safe, but it does have anticoagulant action. so increased bruising is possible.

(27) Ginseng for Immune Enhancement

Many studies show that ginseng revs up the immune system. Scientists at the University of Milan. Italy, gave ginseng (100 mg a day) or a placebo to 227 people. A month later. everyone received a flu shot (which does not kill the flu virus. but rather stimulates the immune system to resist infection). In the placebo group, 42 people got the flu, but in the ginseng group, the figure was just 15, demonstrating that ginseng enhanced immune response to the shot.

(28) Ginseng for Diabetes

Ginseng also reduces blood-sugar levels. In a study published in Diabetes Care, 30 subjects newly diagnosed with diabetes were given ginseng extract (100 or 200 mg a day) or a placebo, with the ginseng groups showing lower blood-sugar levels. Other studies concur. Diabetes requires professional treatment; consult your physician about ginseng.

(29) Ginseng for Erectile Dysfunction

According to a review of studies at Yale University, ginseng boosts the body's synthesis of nitric oxide. As NO increases, so does the likelihood of erection. In a report in the Journal of Urology, Korean researchers gave 45 men with erection impairment a placebo or ginseng (900 mg three times a day). Those taking the herb experienced significant erection improvement.

(30) Ginseng for Low Sperm Count

At the University of Rome, Italy, researchers gave ginseng (4 grams a day) to 30 men suffering from low sperm counts. Three months later, the subjects' counts almost doubled, from an average of 15 million/ml to 29 million/ml.

(31) Goldenseal for Digestive-Tract Infections

Goldenseal, an herbal antibiotic, is often marketed in combination with echinacea as a treatment for infections, but it is effective only in the digestive tract, not for colds or flu. At the University of Illinois in Chicago, researchers tested goldenseal against H. pylori, the bacteria that cause ulcers, and the herb inhibited bacterial growth. For GI infections (ulcer, food poisoning, infectious diarrhea, etc.), ask your doctor about using goldenseal in addition to medical therapies.

(32) Hawthorn for Congestive Heart Failure

In heart failure, the heart keeps beating, just not as forcefully as it should; people with the condition become exhausted from minor exertion. Many studies show that hawthorn stimulates fatigued hearts to beat more normally. In a study published in Phytomedicine, German researchers gave hawthorn (240 mg a day) or a placebo to 40 people with heart failure. Three months later, the hawthorn group was able to exercise significantly longer. "We reviewed much of the published research on hawthorn recently," Blumenthal says, "and 13 of 14 studies showed benefit in heart failure."

(33) Hibiscus for Hypertension

Hibiscus is the trumpet-shaped, tropical flower that puts the color in Red Zinger tea. A report in the Journal of Ethnopharmacology found that 12 days of drinking hibiscus tea (2 teaspoons per cup of boiling water several times a day) lowered systolic and diastolic blood pressure by 11 percent. High blood pressure requires professional care; ask your doctor about adding hibiscus to your treatment plan.

(34) Horse Chestnut for Varicose Veins

"Mainstream medicine offers only support hose and surgery," says Blumenthal, "but standardized horse chestnut seed extract has shown efficacy in most clinical trials." At the University of Heidelberg, Germany, 240 sufferers of newly visible varicose veins were treated with compression stockings or horse chestnut (50 mg aescin twice a day). After 12 weeks, both groups reported equal relief. Off the tree, horse chestnuts are poisonous, but commercial extracts are detoxified and safe.

(35) Horsetail for Skin Healing

Before steel wool and abrasive cleansers, this herb helped scour pots and pans. Today it's used to heal the skin. A Spanish study published in Revista de Enfermeria showed that horsetail speeds the healing of wounds; it's also used in skin-care products.

(36) Lavender for Anxiety

Lavender flowers are an age-old remedy for anxiety. British researchers at the University of Wolverhampton had women add lavender oil or a placebo to their bath water. Bathing by itself is calming, but in this study, a bath infused with lavender oil significantly reduced anger, frustration and negativity. Use a handful of lavender flowers, or buy lavender oil and add several drops to your bath. Ingesting lavender oil is toxic; keep it away from children.

(37) Lemon Balm for Relaxation

The 17th-century English herbalist Nicholas Culpeper wrote that lemon balm drives away all melancholy. That's an overstatement, but science has shown that lemon balm is tranquilizing. The herb and its oil have been used in Alzheimer's care units to calm those who are agitated. To decompress after a tough day, try a cup of lemon-balm tea; for extra benefit, mix with chamomile.

(38) Lemon Balm for Herpes

Lemon balm has antiviral action. As reported in Phytomedicine, German researchers gave 66 people in the early stages of herpes simplex labialis outbreaks lemon-balm cream or a placebo. The herb group had milder outbreaks that healed faster. Lemon balm is the active ingredient in the herpes treatment Herpalieve. "If you have herpes," Duke says, "drink lemon-balm tea. If you have an outbreak, apply lemon balm to the sore."

(39) Licorice for Sore Throat

In a study in the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, researchers gave either a placebo or Throat Coat, a licorice tea from Traditional Medicinals, to 60 sore-throat sufferers 4 to 6 times a day for seven days; the tea tipplers reported significantly less pain on swallowing. Add a teaspoon of chopped or powdered root to a beverage tea, and feel relief almost immediately.

(40) Milk Thistle for Liver Health

Silymarin in milk thistle seeds has a remarkable ability to protect the liver. This herb has been shown to help treat hepatitis and alcoholic cirrhosis, and it's been found more effective than traditional medicine at treating "deathcap" mushroom poisoning. "In our analysis," Blumenthal says," 19 of 21 studies support milk thistle seed extract for liver conditions." Because most drugs are metabolized through the liver, many herbalists recommend silymarin for anyone who takes liver-taxing medication.

(41) Papaya for Herniated Disks

Papaya has been used by Caribbean Indians to treat skin wounds and infections and by the Japanese to treat digestive disorders. In 1982, the Food and Drug Administration approved injections of the papaya enzyme chymopapain to dissolve cellular debris in herniated or slipped vertebral disks in the back. Allergic reactions are possible.

(42) Peppermint for Indigestion

In ancient Greece, people chewed a sprig of mint after feasts to settle the stomach, a tradition that evolved into our after-dinner mints. German researchers gave 118 adults with persistent indigestion a standard drug (cisapride) or twice-daily capsules of enteric-coated peppermint oil (90 mg) and caraway oil (50 mg), another traditional stomach soother. (The enteric coating allows the capsules to survive stomach acid and release their oil in the small intestine, where non-heartburn indigestion develops.) Four weeks later, the drug and the herb blend produced the same relief. If you use herbal oils, do not exceed the recommended dose, and keep them away from children. You also can brew a peppermint tea, and add a teaspoon of chopped caraway to meals. "When I get indigestion," Duke says, "I go to the garden, pick some peppermint, chew some leaves, and make tea. It works for me."

(43) Peppermint for Irritable Bowel Syndrome

IBS involves persistent abdominal cramps, bloating, flatulence, and diarrhea or constipation. British researchers at the University of Exeter analyzed five studies of peppermint oil as a treatment, and found that it provided benefit. (See the previous item for options and cautions.)

(44) Psyllium for Diarrhea and Constipation

Psyllium is a tiny seed that contains mucilage, a soluble fiber that swells on exposure to water. For diarrhea, psyllium can absorb excess fluid in the gut. For constipation, psyllium adds bulk to stool, which presses on the colon wall and triggers the nerves that produce the urge to go. You may find psyllium at health-food stores, but it's easiest to take Metamucil, which is psyllium with flavoring. When using psyllium, drink plenty of water. Allergic reactions are possible.

(45) Red Pepper for Pain Relief

Capsaicin, the compound that gives red pepper (cayenne) its fiery flavor, is a potent topical pain reliever, according to the Handbook of Nonprescription Drugs. When rubbed on the skin, it causes mild superficial burning. But that sensation desensitizes nearby pain nerves, and soothes pain in deeper tissues. Capsaicin is the active ingredient in several over-the-counter pain-relieving creams, such as Capsin, Zostrix and Pain-X.

(46) St. John's Wort for Depression

For mild depression, St. John's wort often works as well as Prozac and Zoloft, but with fewer side effects. "We recently concluded a comprehensive review of the scientific literature on St. John's wort, and 21 of 23 studies support it for mild-to-moderate depression," says Blumenthal. Studies showing benefits have used 600 to 1,800 mg a day; most have used 900 mg a day. Stomach upset is possible, and St. John's wort interacts with many drugs, including possibly reducing the effectiveness of birth-control pills. Depression requires professional care; ask your physician about St. John's wort.

(47) Saw Palmetto for Benign Prostate Enlargement

In a study published in the journal The Prostate, saw palmetto extract (32-0 mg) was compared with finasteride in 1,098 men with prostate symptoms. After 24 weeks, both treatments were equally effective, but the herb caused fewer side effects. Researchers at the Minneapolis Veterans Affairs Medical Center analyzed 18 studies and found saw palmetto to be effective for prostate symptoms.

(48) Tea for Heart Health

Tea, particularly green tea, has rocketed to prominence as an herbal medicine. It's high in antioxidants, which help prevent heart disease. In a study published in the Archives of Internal Medicine, Dutch researchers followed 3,454 residents of Rotterdam. Compared with those who drank no tea, those who drank two cups a day had 46 percent less risk of heart attack, while those who drank four cups a day enjoyed 69 percent lower risk. Drinking tea also improves survival odds after heart attack.

(49) Tea for Cancer Prevention

Researchers at the University of Southern California surveyed 501 Asian women with breast cancer and 594 who were cancer-free. Those who were cancer-free drank the most green tea; as consumption rose, risk fell. Also, Japanese researchers reported in Cancer Letters that breast-cancer survivors who drank three or more cups a day reduced the risk of recurrence. Green tea also appears to protect against cancers of the colon, rectum, and pancreas. Most research has used green tea.

(50) Tea for Bad Breath and Gum Disease

Forget breath mints. Instead, researchers at the University of Illinois College of Dentistry in Chicago suggest a cup of tea (black or green), which contains compounds that stop the growth of bacteria that cause bad breath. An added benefit: Tea helps prevent gum disease, the main cause of adult tooth loss.

(51) Tea Tree Oil for Athlete's Foot

Tea tree isn't tea; it's an Australian plant with an antifungal, antiseptic oil. In a study published in the Australasian Journal of Dermatology, researchers had people with athlete's foot apply tea tree oil (50 percent concentration) or a placebo. After four weeks, 31 percent of the placebo group and 64 percent of the tea tree contingent were cured. Pharmaceutical ointments work faster, but tea tree oil is clearly effective. "Apply it with a Q-tip twice a day," Duke says.

(52) Tea Tree Oil for Dandruff

As reported in the Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology, Australian researchers studied 126 people with dandruff, which is caused by a skin fungus. Subjects were given either an ordinary shampoo or one containing 5 percent tea tree oil. After four weeks, flaking was reduced 11 percent in the plain-shampoo group, but 41 percent in those who used tea tree oil. It's not a miracle cure, but if your dandruff shampoo isn't working as well as you'd like, add a drop or two of tea tree oil each time you shampoo.

(53) Turmeric for Arthritis and Joint Injuries

Curcumin, the yellow pigment in this Indian spice, is an anti-inflammatory. In combination with boswellia, it treats osteoarthritis, according to investigators at India's Central Drug Research Institute. Use turmeric or yellow curries in cooking. "I developed a recipe called 'Arthritis Soup,'" Duke says, "containing lots of anti-inflammatory herbs. The recipe also calls for 2 tablespoons of turmeric." When taking capsules, follow label directions.

(54) Valerian for Insomnia

Studies have shown that valerian aids sleep, often as well as pharmaceutical sedatives and without being addictive. In a study published in the European Journal of Medical Research, investigators gave 202 insomniacs valerian or a Valium-like tranquilizer. After six weeks, both treatments were equally effective. "Research strongly supports that valerian works," Blumenthal says. "It's been used widely and safely for hundreds of years." Note: It takes a week or more to begin noticing benefit. Also, raw valerian root smells and tastes terrible ("like funky socks," Blumenthal says), so pills are more palatable.

(55) White Willow Bark for Back Pain

White willow bark contains salicin, a close chemical relative of aspirin. According to a German study of 451 people with low back pain, 240 mg a day of willow bark worked better than conventional therapeutic options. Like aspirin, willow bark can cause stomach distress, and it shouldn't be given to children.

http://www.herbalremediesinfo.com/be...-remedies.html

Just do your homework, get the facts, & dont assume anything...........

Ustwo · 11-20-2007, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

And while homeopathy does appear to be quite the joke, taking a water placebo would seem to be better than mixing 10 different prescription medications.......

I only posted the homeopathy study to see if I could get a rise out of certain members......and predictably, I did.....

So you are trolling?

DaveOrion · 11-20-2007, 08:07 AM

Nope, just posted an article based on the OP, and received predictable responses.

Martian · 11-20-2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

And while homeopathy does appear to be quite the joke, taking a water placebo would seem to be better than mixing 10 different prescription medications.......

Should I tell my specialist this?

Granted, I'm only taking four prescriptions currently. I will be starting a fifth in the near future, but before I do so I need to consult with another doctor. Y'know, to discuss side effects and make sure there won't be any negative interactions from mixing various prescriptions. I depend on those prescriptions to function on a daily basis. I know exactly what each one does, what the potential side effects are and why I'm taking it. Without any one of them I would be in much worse shape; possibly not here at all.

Herbal remedies have their place. I'm a big fan of aloe for burns; when I was a baker I kept a plant at home for the purpose and would've kept it in the store if not for concerns regarding food contamination and such (those ministry folk, they're sticklers). However, thinking that because there are some effective herbal remedies out there one should use them in place of established medicine is dangerous, to say the least. The FDA has made a few mistakes in the past; I personally don't know how many drugs they test every year, but it would seem that since life expectancy and general health have been improving over the last several centuries and that most people today put their trust in their doctors and the pharmaceuticals they prescribe, the system as it stands works for the overwhelming majority of cases. If one forgoes such treatment in favour of herbal (or worse, homeopathic) remedies, one is denying oneself the best possible avenue to better health.

Also, assuming that something is safe because it's natural is a fallacy. Arsenic occurs naturally. Asp venom could be considered organic. Personally, I'm not in any hurry to down a glass of either. By all means use the stuff in conjunction with what the doctor gives you, but make sure the doc knows you're using it, y'know? And do your homework.

Ustwo · 11-20-2007, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Nope, just posted an article based on the OP, and received predictable responses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

They pharmaceutical companys certainly don't wont the public to buy or use homeopathic or herbal cures, they might lose a few $$$$$$.......or you may believe they're just concerned for your safety.....refer to the list of recalled FDA approved drugs........

Nope, you were either trolling, or just figured out you were wrong and want to cover a bit. It takes a man to admit when he was wrong.

Jinn · 11-20-2007, 08:59 AM

Your latest post Dave was not homeopathy, it was herbal remedies. When you start mixing shit in 1/20000th dilution, then you're talking homeopathy.

And posting things to "get a rise out of certain members" is exactly the definition of trolling.

DaveOrion · 11-20-2007, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

Your latest post Dave was not homeopathy, it was herbal remedies. When you start mixing shit in 1/20000th dilution, then you're talking homeopathy.

And posting things to "get a rise out of certain members" is exactly the definition of trolling.

Thank You for stating the obvious. I don't need a lecture on the rules. Have you every heard of a joke, witticism, gag, or jape??? Did I forget the smiley face??? Next time I'll put my humorous little quips in bold italics so all will know......

I wasn't the first to bring up herbal remedies, I believe that was yowl......even so the topic does correlate in a medicinal discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Nope, you were either trolling, or just figured out you were wrong and want to cover a bit. It takes a man to admit when he was wrong.

I was neither trolling or wrong. If you refer to my post you'll see that I never said that homeopathy had any medicinal value.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

They pharmaceutical companys certainly don't wont the public to buy or use homeopathic or herbal cures, they might lose a few $$$$$$.......or you may believe they're just concerned for your safety.....refer to the list of recalled FDA approved drugs........

As previously stated I merely posted an article based on the OP, which seems to be a scientific study on the validity of homeopathy. Although I don't think homepathy has any medicinal value, the study was still worth posting. Its often enlightening to see both sides of an issue even if you don't agree....Minds really are like parachutes.....

I did enjoy this part.......

Quote:

Nevertheless, the end result of this is that the amazing James Randi will probably end up being $1 million poorer because he has been so foolish as to offer a $1 million reward to the first person who can prove the scientific validity of homeopathy. Well, apparently this proof has already been completed, and now it will probably be a game of continued denials from James Randi in order to avoid paying out the $1 million reward. He will probably say, "Okay, the lab results look solid, but until you can explain how it works, it's not proven." And that's how he will deny actually paying the claim to people who have now scientifically proven that homeopathy is real -- something Randi adamantly insists is untrue.

Redlemon · 11-20-2007, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

http://www.newstarget.com/001951.html

Personally, I found the article to be a highly snippy editorial. And, if the "groundbreaking new research" was so impressive, couldn't he have mentioned something about it, like the name, the authors, anything?

robot_parade · 11-20-2007, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlemon

Personally, I found the article to be a highly snippy editorial. And, if the "groundbreaking new research" was so impressive, couldn't he have mentioned something about it, like the name, the authors, anything?

Um, but then it would be much easier for readers to do a little research themselves, and verify the story. And then, they just might find out it was utter bullshit.

funydjane · 01-13-2008, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robot_parade

The article is the best summary I've yet read. It covers why homeopathy is both unscientific and dangerous.

Does it need an article in light of basic logical thinking and common sense?

robot_parade · 01-13-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funydjane

Does it need an article in light of basic logical thinking and common sense?

Apparently so. Far too many people believe in it. :-/

11-16-2007, 10:52 AM	#2 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	Homeopathy isn't dangerous--at least not in the United States (or shouldn't be, see proviso). The safety of homeopathic remedies in the U.S. is overseen by the FDA (not that that means much these days for anything, homeopathy or not). The efficacy of homeopathy is obviously something to be debated. I've found the efficacy depends on the remedy itself--some, like drospera rotundifolia, are known for being anti-spasmodics and anti-inflammatory, and are being researched for use in conventional medicines. Topically applied arnica gel has been shown to be as effective as other topically applied NSAIDs in the treatment of osteoarthritis. My personal experience with arnica is that it helps tremendously to keep bruising and swelling down, so do you think your article against homeopathy is going to change my mind? No. But here's the thing--we need to be wise consumers, and that applies to all medicine--allopathy, homeopathy, naturopathy. Plenty of conventional medical treatments come with risk and adverse side effects. For instance, the commercial for Lipitor says that in rare cases, patients may experience muscle pain or weakness. What they don't tell you is that that muscle weakness might leave you passed out on the floor at your place of business with no ability to explain to anyone what's wrong with you (true story, happened to my mother). Every treatment--even a well-respected statin drug like Lipitor--comes with some risk. I'm a researcher of all things, so I don't choose remedies without looking into them first--and that applies to everything, conventional medicine and homeopathy. I like to know everything about what I'm putting into my body. I think if people aren't medically literate, they're just as likely to run into problems with the conventional medical establishment as they are with homeopathy. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

11-16-2007, 12:55 PM	#9 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	We appear to have the whole "homeopathy versus herbal" thing going on again. Which are we arguing here? Anyway, there was an article recently that found that many "herbal" erection remedies worked because.... they contained prescription drugs. See The Associated Press: Herbal Sex Pills Pose Hidden Dangers. __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

11-16-2007, 02:00 PM	#13 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Dave lovely article from an alternative medicine anti-real medicine site, but lets see this real article. Someone from a site dedicated to show you how the medical industry is out to get you claims there is a ground breaking paper. Lets see it, otherwise its so many words. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

11-16-2007, 02:37 PM	#17 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	If I am not mistaken, from what I have read and what my mother has told me (she is a retired R.N.) Homeopathy is based on introducing small amounts of any substance into the body that in time will develop an immunity type of response? I can see why people think of this as hocus-pocus, yet how do I explain the fact that I have been drinking 'city water' and have suffered no obvious effects from the poison we all believe it to be? Way too many variables, in all matters, ya think? I need data. All I have seen in any link or article is conjecture. Last edited by ring; 11-16-2007 at 03:55 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

11-19-2007, 05:54 AM	#19 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	My question about the memory of water: what about everything else that the water has touched over the last million years? Along with everything that the bottle in which it was stored has touched? __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

11-16-2007, 11:22 AM	#3 (permalink)
cj2112 Unbelievable Location: Grants Pass OR	While I am about as far from being new agey as one can get, the best remedy I found for colic when my kids were little was a homeopathic remedy. I have since passed this on to every person I know who has child has had issues w/ colic, and I swear everyone of them thanked me profusely. Not all homeopathy is bad, not all conventional medicine is good, like Snowy said, you have to be a wise consumer.

11-16-2007, 12:24 PM	#6 (permalink)
cj2112 Unbelievable Location: Grants Pass OR	That particular remedy has been tested and approved by the FDA.

11-16-2007, 01:36 PM	#11 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	This is getting rather confusing. Homeopathy.. herbal.. 'conventional medicine' Self study on any subject ultimately leads to making a decision based on others perceived knowledge or actual experience. The FDA has approved many medications that are now being questioned. The, Seroquel - Causes Diabetes debate, and class action suits that have followed are a prime example.... of, of, I am losing my train of thought.. There are many threads to consider in this thread. I look forward to reading more.

11-16-2007, 02:08 PM	#14 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	The FDA only pulls medications from the grasps of 'The drug companies' when the overwhelming evidence is even great enough for the lay-person to grasp. I am looking for the link... Somebody help me out here.

11-19-2007, 05:21 PM	#21 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	We won't even think about 'heavy water'

11-20-2007, 08:07 AM	#25 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Nope, just posted an article based on the OP, and received predictable responses. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

11-20-2007, 08:59 AM	#28 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	Your latest post Dave was not homeopathy, it was herbal remedies. When you start mixing shit in 1/20000th dilution, then you're talking homeopathy. And posting things to "get a rise out of certain members" is exactly the definition of trolling. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel