Zeraph

Thanks, just the list I was looking for.

Hah, just saw someone own with Tryndamere. Other team was like, rigged hero! But I can tell he'd be a hard one to master. Everyone else I've seen with him sucks so far.

Kassidin I'm not surprised, I had a good run with him, almost as good as my first time with nasus. I love his mana regain ability.

So far I havent figured out twisted fate, I've stunk with him and so has everyone else I've seen. Which is too bad cause his theme is really cool. Is it learning when to use his TP thats so important?

How come Nasus and Tristana didn't make the list?

Jozrael

Sorry to burst your bubble but Kass' W is his worst ability. Here is my recommended skill build:
Q E E Q E R E Q E Q R Q.

Twisted Fate takes serious timing skill to use. His gold card ability DESTROYS. His combo of: set gold card, ult, quickly find low hp hero unless you already have a target, teleport in, and smack them, is just ridiculously powerful. He's not godtier in high elo games but he's solid enough. If you have good timing skills you will go far with TF.

Nasus: Option 1 with him (farmfest) is pretty standard in low elo games. I'm not there, so maybe he does destroy. He's definitely top-tier in high elo, but going option 2. I just don't find him easy to destroy with: might just be I'm not a nasus player .

Tristana is a great carry. However, she's not the most mobile thing in the world, and stomping usually requires you to surprise your opponents. Add a phage/mallet on her and you might be able to destroy though ;o.

My trist build would be: Cleaver (#1 item for her), infinity, phage. Those 3 in some order.

Btw, hop on AIM . Mine is Trinity of Self.

lol I keep missing you by like 1 minute.

Zeraph

Mind if I friend you lasereth? My summoner's name is Zeraph.

Anyone else playin can feel free to friend me too.

Lasereth

No probz.

BTW the top tier champions also have the highest learning curve. Anivia or Twisted Fate is absurdly hard for new people. I totally suck at Twisted Fate but once you get the card picking down pat he's ridiculous. Also, play a good Anivia enemy and you'll rage.

I've seen a good Annie do consistent double and triple kills in this game also.

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

Jozrael

For sure. Corki's up there too .

ironpham

Before I started using Heimerdinger or however you spell it, I used Corki. He is pretty hard to use. I'm still not sure of the best items to get with him. But still, he could 1v1 anyone and dominate them.

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Jozrael

Corki -is- hard to use to his max potential, and that's what I love about him. Heroes with a very high skill ceiling naturally perform phenomenally if you are able to use them to their potential.

ironpham

What are suggested items/builds for him? I think I'm going to start using him since Heimer got nerfed.

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Jozrael

Where'd everyone go <_<. Lol after that last game we all kinda dissipated.

Jozrael

Btw lasereth I saw your post on the metagame.

Personally, I think the tools for changing the 5 man gank squads are already in place with this patch, people just aren't using them enough.

90. Gold. Wards.

They last for almost FIVE minutes.

These are so cheap it's not even funny.

If you have map control/awareness, that makes 5 man gank squads far less effective. Wards give you that control. I find myself buying between 2 and 12 of these every game now for my team.

Next patch comes a further tool: CC invuln item. (I think/hope it's next patch). This will further increase the viability of not being in a 5 man pack. If you're caught in a bad situation, you at least have an option that gives you a chance at surviving instead of being chain CC'D to death.

With both of these tools, the metagame surely has the POTENTIAL to change. And if the other team is still 5 man squading? LET THEM. Go farm multiple lanes (with your map control, you know exactly when to get out ), farm 3/4 of the neutrals on the map (wherever they aren't), grab dragon when they're on the left side, baron when they're on the right. Teleport to pushed minion waves to quickly down a tower and get out, get to your lane when that 5 man squad decides to actually push. A 5 man squad is SLOW. Out maneuver them.

Finally we have the tools that it shouldn't be a dominant strategy; people just aren't using them enough.

If you wanted to keep a single ward alive before this in the game, it cost you 15 (45 minutes/3 minutes duration) * 150, or 2250 gold. That's a very high gold investment for only one area of the map, but it IS the entire game. Now? It's 9 (45/5) * 90, or 810. Almost 1/3 the cost. Wards are triply useful now. Use them . EVERYONE. Even the carry can spare one or two, and the support should be buying them out the rear end. No one's item build is so critical to the game that you can't drop 90 here and there to help your team out.

Lasereth

Yes I think you're right. I'll be buying them along with pots everytime now.

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

Jozrael

As a note, I don't think it's necessary to get them at gamestart (generally other items will increase your laning potential more). Unless their team has a jungler, early game map control is pretty unimportant because you can see them at almost all times.

It's once the laning starts to break down/first ganks are happening or expected to start happening that you should think about whipping out some wards.

Zeraph

/groan
Ugh, I hate consumables :P Don't ask me why...never liked them in *any* game. Its not the price or anything, I think its something about having to manage them...no idea really whats at the root of it. Oh well, not that I'm complaining if they really needed it for pro games.

Could someone explain the terms to me? Like Jungler, carrier..etc I can kind of guess (besides pusher; that's obvious).

Also, is Katarina and Tryndamere the only two characters without mana?

So I practiced some more on Kat and Shaco, Jozrael, and while I got a bit better I still basically suck with em :P I still own with nasus/kass/twitch though.

Jozrael

I've had some friends in DotA that didn't like consumables because they didn't provide a permanent benefit. It's really silly tbh when you realize that they give a ton of gain. You should always (99%) after buying your 1 (2?) items at gamestart round out your purchase with potions with w.e money you have left.

Jungler: Generally means someone can go into the jungle/forest/neutral creeps from level 1 and make his own way there. If you enter the jungle later on in the game (when you have a considerable amount of levels), you're probably just going there because there's no good farm in lanes atm, and that's really just neutral creeping.

Carry: Someone who is item dependent and becomes very powerful lategame if he is properly farmed. See: Corki, Yi, Ashe, Jax, etc.

The third char without mana is Dr. Mundo. He uses his health instead, like Tryndamere.

Shaco got hit with the nerfstick this patch, so it might be a bit harder to play him. It highly depends on whether you build atk or ap shaco: both shine in different areas. He's very good at mindgames, so you might want to put him off until you're more familiar with the game as a whole. 1v1 he's not very strong.

Katarina...is weak . She's been nerfed in so many patches in a row. She's fantastic for stomping low games if you're pro with her, but upper tier games rarely if ever see her.

I recommend AP kat, and rushing Rylai's. It's kind of necessary on her (Frozen mallet if you go physical).

YaWhateva

I became a huge fan of Tristana, she is super squishy though so I might need to rework my items a bit

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“If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush administration again.” - Bill O'Reilly

"This is my United States of Whateva!"

Jozrael

im a huge fan of phage early on her. Black cleaver destroys, and sometime upgrading to a frozen mallet

YaWhateva

yeah i usually get vamp. scepter, avarice blade, beserker's greaves, infinity edge, then zeal, black cleaver and finish off phantom dancer if the game is still going. If the game goes after that I go for frozen mallet.

After I got cleaver in a game today I was critting for almost 800 and my biggest crit was 830 or something. I would kill two heroes instantly but usually die because they had a Teemo and I would die from the poison after I killed him and another.

In games like that I might need more armor or health because she is pretty squishy. Phage might be pretty good to work in there as well.

__________________
“If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush administration again.” - Bill O'Reilly

"This is my United States of Whateva!"

Zeraph

So how's cho'gath? He seems pretty good although he must have the worst passive...Seriously wtf

But the rest of his abilities seem great and with an AP build they seem like they'd do great dmg.

How does his Ultimate work though if the hero is above said amount? It still does damage but I can't tell for sure how much.

highdro69

Oh, you have much to learn young padawan. Cho'gath is a tank. Through and through. He's not meant to do damage. He's meant to nom nom creeps and get really big (from his ultimate. Quick cooldown cooldown and all). You get a few high HP items on him like a Warmog's, and he becomes an unkillable beast. His passive allows him to stay out much longer than most other heroes, as it regens him like whoa (both mana AND HP) once you've mastered the art of last hitting.
Don't bother with an AP build on him, his skills don't scale well with it. Get big and fat with him, run around stunning and silencing everyone, and no one can stop you.

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Zeraph

Just played Warwick. Mhmmm ownage. His ult could be a bit better tho for its long CD. People were practically fleeing at the site of him :P I didn't even get that many KBs either (mostly assists).

EDIT OMG Now I have a pwner for blitzcrank

EDIT Damn Nunu is pretty damn good too. That speed buff is sick. Now I just wish Q was more worth while (it being a minion only power).

Jozrael

Wow. A lot of interesting talk going on here.

YaWhateva: I recommend putting the cleaver and phage earlier in your build, but whatever works for you. She's pretty versatile, and with that much needed buff I think we'll be seeing more of her. Her e is pretty atrocious though, it needs redesigning.

@Zeraph: Cho's passive is decent. It really helps his laning. I'm not a big cho player but it's annoying as heck to face a good one. Probably one of the best laners right now. There's a pretty funny thread on the forums talking about how Cho has been buffed like 6 times in a row now, so obviously the trend is going to continue and it's going to become League of Cho'Gaths. He's quite flexible as well. Also, AP Chogaths are S.C.A.R.Y. He's typically a tank, but I find throwing an atmas or some AP on him does wonders at making you more terrifying. I believe if the hero is above said amount his ultimate does magic damage, which means it will be resisted. For example, if they have 50% magic reduction, and your ult does 800, if they have 799 hp they will be eaten, but if they have 801, they will survive with 401 hp.

Warwick is...interesting. He's a pretty ridiculous jungler, but good teams -shut him down-. It's a hobby of mine to play against some of my friends that like Cho'Gath but don't generally play high level games. Ward the jungle or guess where their (fairly predictable) circuit will lead them, gank them for free runes, and wheee. His ultimate is also...too easily countered. At least morgana's shield no longer breaks it (thank goodness).

Blitz is a solid choice (one of the top 3 initiators in the game, and a REALLY short cd knockup, which is my favorite type of disable). Nunu is VERY interesting. Extremely powerful but his ultimate is unreliable. He's going to be unstoppable once that BKB equivalent (magic invulnerability for a short time) is put in LoL (another patch or 2).

Keep up the theorycrafting guys and I'll do my best to give my 2 cents on it <3.

Vaultboy

My fav char is definitely Tristana. Her buff in the latest patch has been much needed, since most AP dps builds own her badly. I normally prefer to play support heores, so the build I've come up with is Tiamat, Cleaver and Trinity Force.

Tiamat is the cornerstone though, since it boosts her E (which is too weak), and gives her farming ability. Also for the Tiamat my inital items are Faerie Charm, Rejuvenation Bead and a health potion, which helps to give her pathetic stats some staying power in early laning. I normally farm a Tiamat and boots outright before needing to recall.

The Cleaver is self explanatory. The Trinity Force gives her all round stats, which can be argued makes her less of a specialist, but I find that the HP bonus gives a good basis if my team tank fails, or if I get focus fired. The movement speed and slow bonus makes her a good chaser (combined with W) in case my team stunner fails.

Suggestions for alternate builds are welcome, but I find that the recommended items fail for me.

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"Failing tastes of bile and dog vomit. Pity any man that gets used to that taste."

Jozrael

Recommended items are good for players who have never played the hero and want some tips on stuff that is generally useful for the hero. They will never put items in the recommended item list that require playing a certain way or with certain allies or enemies. For example, amumu should always get either mercury treads or ninja tabi, but they recommend boots of swiftness.

That being said, the recommended items are generally at least USEFUL to the hero. So yea, once you've played the hero a bit and have experimented, feel free to deviate from the recommended item builds.

In terms of farming ability, I don't really think Tiamat is necessary if you just practice your last hitting. It's true Tristana is no longer the beast farmer she was several months ago (when she was on EVERY team).

Trinity Force's main strength is its a freaking TON of stats for a decent price (it's the most expensive item in the game but has SO MUCH STATS). It is the BEST item lategame because it tucks all those stats into a single slot. However, mid tier items (and even some high tier) DO give more bang for your buck compared on the champion.

Zeraph

LoL keeps minimizing on me at random times. *Very* annoying as it has gotten me killed several times. Anyone else?

Jozrael

New bug, happened to me twice the night I got to play some. They're working on it, but if you have any info as to what might be causing it, that'd be fantastic.

Zeraph

My only hunch is AVG; I upgraded to version 9 the day it started happening for me. Probably a coincidence.

Jozrael

Actually, I think that's it, since a lot of other people were commenting on it interacting with their AVG.

I seem to be the only one it randomly happened to (but then again it was just twice in the span of a single minute). So maybe I was a freak occurrence.

Anyone gonna be on tonight?

Zeraph

Kept missing you tonight Jozrael.

Ugh, just had an hour and a half game. We were down a man (4v5) from the get go and doing really well considering. Basically winning (constantly destroying inhibs then getting pushed back), we even had both their final towers down, were just about to go for the win, and somehow it all fell apart. Soooo frustrating to lose after that long. And I only got 70 exp 80 ip?! Bah!

Stacking damage was fun with nasus though. I didn't go quite all out but I went pretty offensive. Ult (R) plus Q equal insane crits. My highest was at least 1300. Didn't even have any buffs on either (besides ultimate/personal items I mean). So what's your guy's highest crit and the situation?

Lasereth

I've been playing Cho'Gath a lot recently and I have to disagree. Sure the tank build works but if you stack AP on him it's absolutely hilarious. His abilities scale VERY well with AP since all of them gain positive damage from AP. Hide in the brush, wait for ANY enemy to get in Rupture range with less than 85% health, then Q => W=> R and they're dead. Then they rage ha ha ha ha ha.

Last night I went 7:0 ratio with him using an AP build. The enemy champs couldn't get near me because of the QWR combo. One guy rage quit after I ate him. Heck, even if all you have is ult ready, you can hit them at full health and it'll take them down to half easy. AP Cho'Gath is so fun. Gotta have some extra regen built in though.

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

Jozrael

Nasus Q is ridiculous in long games: props on properly farming it!

Lasereth: You have to consider AP ratios tho.

Talk more after game xD

Lasereth

On the website it says his abilities gain 1 from AP. Isn't that a positive ratio or am I confused?

__________________
"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

Zeraph

Id love to know too. Also, where are you seeing that on their website?

Jozrael

Yea, there's only a small bonus for losing slowly. They want games short and sweet: if they awarded bonus IP/XP the longer the game went on, there'd be incentives to just afk in game for hours :P.

The highest crit I ever saw was over 3000 when Kayle was bugged. Ah, good times xD.

And the queue isnt giving me long enough to finish these messages in between games lol.

Lasereth

The website is wrong it turns out. He still has decent AP ratios though. Rupture gains a lot more than I thought.

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

Jozrael

Ya, don't trust any site that gives u all the rates in whole numbers. 99% of abilities do not have a whole number ratio.

His AP ratios ARE good, but he's a multiple build champion, like twisted fate or nasus or others (unlike someone like rammus, for example, who generally only has 1 acceptable type of build).

Vaultboy

is it just me or is the matchmaking system flawed? I've played games with players level 30 (me being level 5 at the time). I've asked my team a few times and it seems the only criterion is that the team has a mix of losers and winners. I find it extremely unbalanced to play against a team where everyone has Flash (i.e. are over level 12) and my teamies have ignite and heal as spells. Noobs vs Pro will rarely win, even if most ppl on the pro team lost their last game.

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"Failing tastes of bile and dog vomit. Pity any man that gets used to that taste."

Jozrael

Fantastic MM thread. Pendragon just took my (troll T_T) friend to school.

Btw, where'd you go? We restarted after that game cuz we bugged. This is why we need vent! xD

Vaultboy

Oh, I thought you were done. I needed to get to my chores anyway, before my wife kills me. Will install vent tonite.

Cya next tym.

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"Failing tastes of bile and dog vomit. Pity any man that gets used to that taste."

Zeraph

So how does assigning the kill work? For instance I know doing most of the damage, while having a minion do the killing blow (KB) will result in me still getting credit. But how does that work with players and towers?

So far what I've gathered is that its a % system when it comes to PvE interactions with champs but a champ dealing a KB always gets the credit. So even if I do 99%--if my team-mate comes and finishes him he still gets the credit. But if I do over a certain % and a pve element like a tower or creep finishes the enemy champ then I get the credit. Is that right?

ironpham

I've been wanting to play with you guys the past few days, the internet at my house had gone out this Sunday. Turns out, the problem was in the cord though, so I'm all set to go. Someone let me know when you guys get on again.

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