vox_rox

As Charlatan stated, this in not one of those things that you can simply define and let go. There is over 300 years of french history in that part of Canada (and others for that matter), and Canada as a country is coming up to its 150 birthday in the next decade or so. That much history is tough to summarize.

What it really boils down to is that, even though the French lost the war, Quebec continued to exist as, more or less, a country within a country. The rest of Canada adopted laws based on the British that ruled them (and still do, kind of). The French rejected that route and remained true to the laws that France had followed, which differ significantly in many ways.

Also, because they were a country within a country as I stated, their culture reflects an entirely different sensibility, different moral codes (writen and unwriten), a different language (duh!), and an almost siege mentality.

As far as politics go, that too is difficult to really pinpoint. From seperatism to the silent revolution to the FLQ to beer in corner stores, politicians and politcal movements in Quebec have made other politics in Canada boring by comparison.

I was born and raised in Ottawa, which is the Capital of Canada and only a bridge away from the province of Quebec where I spent a great deal of time growing up. I can tell you, without a doubt, that Quebec is as different from the other provinces as Mexico is from the the US, although that is a truly apples to oranges comparison, so don't pick it apart.

Suffice to say that Quebec, and all the issues that surround it, would take a college course just to get started, and several years living here to really get a handle on. I know this sounds a bit like a cop-out, but it would be the same as us asking you what the deal is with Texas, but even more complicated.

Maybe someone else can add something salient to this? (I hope!)

Peace,

Pierre

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There is no such thing as strong coffee - only weak people.
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Yakk

Every province has at least 1 'random' holiday that isn't national.

Sacks of margerine with butter-colouring in seperate containers, which you squeeze to break and mix with the margerine! =)

Way back in the day, Britian and France where at war.

Britian won. As part of the surrender agreement, Britian got some of France's overseas colonies.

One of the colonies given to Britian was Quebec.

Time passes. Eventually there are two colonies that merge into one colony with two provinces: Upper and Lower Canada (named being up or down river on the St Lawrence).

Criminal law in both of these provinces is based off British Common Law, but in Lower Canada (Quebec) Civil law is based off, well, French law (Napoleonic I think?).

Quebec was and always has been a French speaking colony/nation/province.

Time passes. Quebec remains French, but part of Canada. There where a number of ... national schizms that got polarized along linguistic lines.

English-speaking Canada was far more attached to the British Empire than was French-speaking Canada. Conscription during WWI and WWII was strongly opposed within Quebec. So strongly that in WWII, Canada never sent a single conscripted soldier into combat -- conscripts served at home.

Since WWII, more things have happened. The Quiet Revolution. FLQ, a domestic terroist group who kidnapped and killed and blew stuff up. The war measures act. 1982 and the notwithstanding clause, Meech lake, the Charlottetown accord, the constitutional crisis. Linquistic law. Official Bilingualism. The PQ. A French President expelled from Canada. The clarity law. The collapse of the Catholic Church in Quebec. 50%+1. The PC parties dual betrayal of Quebec and the West, and the collapse of the founding party of Canada. The Reform Party. Transfer payments. Energy. Quebec Hydro.

It's millions of people and hundreds of years of politics.

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Jam

Bah, you guys broke my lurkerhood.

I would like to chime in here and say that I think our government is seriously fucked up. They are spending money (I am assuming money coming from my taxes) to buy street people in vancouver, not only clean needles, but now also free heroin. I hate my government. What is wrong with them

Janey

why heroin instead of methadone or what ever the replacement is?

Charlatan

A war on drugs approach, where you treat users like criminals isn't working...

Vancouver (and other cities around the world) are taking a different approach and treating users as if they are sick rather than criminals. It is an interesting experiment. I am in a wait and see mode on this approach.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Yakk

Because methadone isn't a perfect replacement.

Take people who have only 1 thing in their lives that makes them feel good - heroin. Remove the incentive to steal / live in the underworld in order to get heroin. Develop other things that make them feel good. Offer methadone treatment when/if they want to get off heroin.

It's an experiment. Maybe it won't work, maybe it will. But it's worth a shot.

Nyuk.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Janey

is it at least a close replacement? I mean, nothing is going to be perfect, but if the user doesn't make strides... and maybe they are so intoxicated by the effects of the heroin, that they will not notice the less than perfect substition

BigBen

To quote someone far smarter than I, Dr. Michael Rachlis:

Where do homeless people go in the winter time? Yellowknife or the Lower Mainland? That's right. They gravitate towards a warm climate.

Are there infection problems with intraveneous drug use? Yes. HIV/AIDS and Hep C for starters.

Approximately 2/3 of the homeless in Vancouver are from other parts of Canada.
An unknown but significant proportion of those people use intraveneous drugs.
When those people become sick, they naturally migrate back to their traditional home locations, taking their infections with them.
They proceed to use IV drugs in that location, spreading the disease to the local drug-using populace.
Many, many people get sick.

Now. Lets have a test on philosophy. Would you provide those people with clean needles, safe injection sites and even sofaras clean drugs? Whatever answer you provide is your philosophy, and you are entitled to it and to express it.

My philosophy is this: Social Marginal Benefit = Social Marginal Cost

If you are worried that they are giving 1 penny of your taxes to pay for this, may I ask what it is worth to you to prevent some disease-ridden-IV-junkie moving back home to your town and infecting a friend or family member of yours?

Okay, that was a loaded question. If it makes you feel better, please rest easy knowing that smarter people than you and I are running the country.

And if you are still mad, I can suppose that every cent of your taxes went to a federal/provincial infrastructure initiative and you paid for 25m of asphalt between Calgary and Edmonton.

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Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

Yakk

Heroin is pleasure in a needle. Imagine the most pleasureable thing you have ever felt, and imagine getting it when you inject yourself.

Then imagine if everything else faded to grey, and your ability to feel pleasure becoming centered around heroin and only heroin.

It isn't intoxication that's the problem. It's the hijacking of the human reward mechanism.

So, the stride is to remove none of the reward mechanism, but change the behaviour that reward mechanism is causing the person to engage in. Make heroin a given -- not something you have to lie, cheat or steal for -- and build up a normal reward structure outside of heroin. Give them something to live for before seeking to remove the heroin.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

kramus

Well said, clear, thoughtful and very approachable.

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Janey

I agree, however, this approach seems to require a long term committment. Are there parallel programmes to ensure that the reward/behaviour response is taking effect?

It would be interesting to see a results analysis...

Janey

*Bump*

er... is inhalo now completely satisfied?

inhalo

I am back.

Thank you guys for continuing on while I was abruptly away. I was on a Holiday-Illness-Streesed-Holiday binge for a little while there and was unable to connect with you lovely Canadians. I apologize. Now that I am back I must say that I am having tough time coming up with a questions. I think this board is already a valuable resource so I would hate to see it plucked from inactivity. Sooo where do we go from here? On one hand I would like to exchange the favor and answer Questions from Canadians about the states. So feel free to ask. On the other hand I want to continue with what I started and keep it thriving......

we will have to see what happens I guess....

17th Question.

Cigs, Grits, Butts, and Fags. What is the social atmosphere of cigarettes? Are they banned in restraunts and bars. Can you go to a concert and light up? How much is a pack of Marboro? Do you guys have those cool half packs with ten cigs like they have in Ireland. Do they sell cigs individually anywhere? can you tell I smoke?

Antikarma

Welllll, here in Yellowknife, Cigarettes are 12.50-13.00 bucks a pack. And I can't smoke within 10 feet of any public place, at all. That really sucks when I go to the bar in the winter, but what can you do.

Smokes aren't a social taboo, but they definetaly are not the social norm. Yellowknife has a much much higher per capita average of smokers tho.

Down in Penticton, I could get a lecture on the street from a stranger for lighting up :/

Course, I may be the only one that feels this way, but I know smoking is bad for me, and bad for anyone around me at that time. I don't smoke around others. I have the right to kill myself, I do not have the right to include others with me. I'm trying to quit anyways, the last thing I want is my daughters following in MY footsteps.

__________________

"Whoever you are, go out into the evening,
leaving your room, of which you know each bit;
your house is the last before the infinite,
whoever you are."

BigBen

You can go out for a "Dart", "Quick Butt", "Tar Biscuit", or the most standard "Smoke"...

Where I am, smoking is banned in public. EVEN IN OPEN AIR PATIOS AND THE LIKE. EVEN IN PRIVATE CLUBS. The only place it is still allowed is where the public is not allowed. Pretty harsh.

Concerts are right out. So are bars.

You can get 20 packs here, but not everywhere. Standard "pack" reference is 25 smokes. A pack of Marlboro? I don't know. A pack of Canadian brand smokes here is about 10-12 bucks ( 8.11 to 9.75 american).

No, you cannot get smokes here individually. A mom-and-pop corner store got busted for 'breaking packs' for school kids who couldn't afford a whole pack. I'm not sure, but I think the fine was for selling to minors (you have to be 18 here, 19 IN OTTAWA).

We are just slowly putting the squeeze on smokers in Canada.

Funny story: When I first joined the Army, 9 out of 10 soldiers smoked. I didn't. When the "Smoke Break" came during the first day of basic, they saw me standing there, not doing anything (read: smoking) and they made me do push-ups. YOU CAN'T HAVE A SOLDIER JUST STANDING THERE!!!

Day 2 I walked up to my buddy and said "gimme a smoke"
He looked shocked, "You don't smoke!"
"I fucking do now..." was all I could say after doing all those push-ups.

Now, it is the complete opposite: 1 out of 10 soldiers still smokes. You have to go outside (did someone mention the -40 equality yet?) in the winter and suck one down before you freeze. It is just not worth it. That, and 12 bucks a pack...

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Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

BigBen

And when I went to Montreal, it seemed that EVERYONE SMOKED. In restaurants, bars, everywhere...

I think it just stood out because it was banned at home, and I got used to not seeing it.

The guy who took my order for my Montreal Smoked Meat sandwich had a smoke hanging from his lips.....

__________________
3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

cellophanedeity

People in the Toronto area are trying desperately to figure out ways to go around the no smoking by-laws.

And I've only been to one concert where smoking hasn't occured, though it's illegal everywhere.

__________________
who am I to refuse the universe?
-Leonard Cohen, Beautiful Losers

Janey

I went to an Irish neighbourhood pub with some friends in feb 2004. It was a place called McCArthy's on Gerrard near Woodbine in Toronto, about the size of a living room. I had one drink there, and had to leave because of the smoking. there were only 5 people there. I stank and had to shower, plus my breathing wsa laboured after that.

Two nights ago, also a thursday night, i went back. no smoking, about 20 people. all in all a much better experience.

aberkok

Even though I think smoking is a pretty disgusting habit, I feel as though the government has been spending far too much time on this vice. Nationally, we've been subjected to ads that go so far as to claim that smoking puts you at a 1 in 2 chance of dying. In the ads, you'll see the spokesperson lounging in a bathtub with a toaster perched on the edge or outside in a lightning storm flying a kite. They'll say: "ya think this is stupid!? Well if you smoke, ....yadda yadda yadda."

I mean, sure smoking is bad for you, but I'm ashamed of a government who think that they can use distorted statistics in such a blatant way. In general I feel that the recent blitz over the last 2 years has been unjustified.

On the other had, being a jazz musician, it means that a lot of my haunts have become smoke free, which is amazing for me as a non-smoker.

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Janey

Actually i like those commercials, and I like the way the pinpoint the 'uncoolness' of the activity, and shove it in the faces of the teenagers that keep on starting the habit. I also know one of the kids who acted in one of the commercials (he's in grade 10, and his group of friends are totally off of cigarettes)

From a societal stance, I think that with the weight of evidence, that if we are going to all contribute into a national health care system, then the government would be remiss if they didn't take steps (such as this campaign) to deter smoking. Say what you want abou the reporting of statistics, I think that our health dollar has enough of a ways to stretch without having to compensate for a fixable habit.

Now, to get onto sugar

Bob Biter

Yeah, being from Montreal, I can tell you that anyone even THINKING of banning smoking in public places would be subjected to full-body cigarette burns! With our International Jazz Festival and cosmopolitan atmosphere, how could we expect to remain cool without smokes?

However, the price of smokes these days is cutting down potential new smokers, while the underground market from the Native American reservations is picking up the slack!

I'd like to chime in on the Quebec politics issue. Basically, the animosity between Quebec and the rest of Canada came to a head during the "Night of Long Knives" ("La nuit des longs couteaux"), during which Prime Minister Trudeau roused all premiers from their slumber (EXCEPT Premier Levesque from Quebec) to ratify the Canadian Constitution, using the British model, during a lenghty negociation period in a hotel. The British model was opposed by Levesque, since it didn't take into account the presence of such a large number of francophones, which required special attention. Levesque walked into the meeting the following morning to find the other premiers celebrating a new Canada, with his "absentee vote" tossed in with their own. This was the true beginning of seperatism in Quebec.

However, the FLQ (Front de Liberation du Quebec - sorry, no accents on this computer), had been causing their own trouble beforehand. Wishing for increased provincial power (which, ironically, made their attitude similar to Alberta), they bombed mailboxes and a few federal buildings (while they were EMPTY - re: no kills), but fucked up royally when they kidnapped James Cross, a British diplomat, and murdered Pierre Laporte, a reporter for the newspaper "Le Devoir" (mostly conservative), which prompted Trudeau to enact the War Measures Act within the province. Many prominent Quebecers suspected of collaborating with the FLQ, were summarily placed under arrest by the Canadian Army. Truly a dark time in Canada.

Since then, there have been 2 referendums in Quebec to secede from Canada. The first, held in the early eighties, had an extremely lengthy and confusing ballot question that, when combined with federal marketing and the general fear of Quebecers to be on their own, resulted in a loss for the "yes" side - Quebec remained part of Canada. The other one, held in 1995, was a close call: 51% "no" vs. 49% "yes". However, Chretien then passed a law stating that any future referendum would need a 75% "yes" majority to pass, effectively killing seperatist momentum.

These days, some Quebecers still harbour strong seperatist feelings, but based on the results of 2 referendums and the fact that Canada truly is a great country to live in, I believe Quebec will always be a part of it, and I'm glad. Sure, there will always be name-calling and tension, but not in alarming levels like in the 70s / 80s.

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OFKU0

This is a good topic for a new thread.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

Janey

you would certainly get some lively discussion! (althought I thought that the Night of the Long Knives was a purge enacted by Hitler in the 1930's).

although I grew to detest his personality (pugilistic, trivial) I think that I have to recognize the efforts of Chretien in maintaining national unity. We may be oblivious to the potential outcome, but the fact that Chretien kept us out of Iraq, in the same year as a provincial election in Quebec, may have served to have defused yet another round unity struggle and anxiety for us Canadians.

Wheels within Wheels!

Yakk

Huh?

Citation on that 75% 'fact' please.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Bossnass

Yeah, it was a purge by Hitler. The leaders of the SA (Hitler's private army of 'brownshirts' or 'stormtroopers') had become so powerful he feared them, so in June 1934 he had the SS (Hitlers super elite bodyguards) arrest and elimitate anyone with power/ officers, etc. It marks the point where Hitler unoffcially went from 'scary leader' to 'supreme leader that no one could challenge'.

I took a History of 20th Century Warfare a year and half ago. When this came up, a person in the class questioned the professor because he thought it was when 'Trudeau betrayed Quebec'. The professor, an acedemic and a historian, explained that 'only self-righteous Quebecois would describe a peaceful gathering of modern Canadians with the same name as a night when more than a hundred murders took place to support at dictatorship.' He went on the explain that while both were political actions, using the title "Night of the Long Knives" is a cheap attept to villianify Trudeau and Anglo leaders, when Levesque refused to let the country function and wanted special considerations that historical precedent or Francophone population didn't merit.

(Levesque was the founder of the PQ, in 78. The Seperatist movement started in the early 60s, the FLQ and the October Crisis was in 70, and Trudeau has implemented the Offcial Languages Act, among other things, starting in the late 60s and throughout the 70s)

But I digress. I think Quebec politics needs a seperate thread.

inhalo

18th Question.

In the last question I brought up smoking at concert venues.With venues in mind.....how regular are American artists touring up there. In 1999 I saw Phish at the MOLSON AMPHITHEATRE, a venue which seems to bring in a lot of American bands. What about the rest of the country? Do you need to live near Toronto to catch the big shows?

Charlatan

The main centres for music are Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver... while big acts will play all over the US they will sometimes only play Toronto and nowhere else in Canada...

If you live in Toronto, you will see all the acts you could ever want... elsewhere is a crap shoot.

That said, most smaller acts play places like Ottawa, Winnipeg, Halifax, Calgary and Edmonton as well...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

BigBen

Okay, you guys touched a nerve here. I am from Saskatchewan. Notice what Charlatan said up above...

Winnepeg, Calgary, and Edmonton. OVER AND OVER AGAIN, EVERY BLOODY BAND JUMPS ACROSS THE STUBBLE.

Sure, the top 40 acts usually stop in either Regina or Saskatoon, but if I want to see a really BIG BAND, I have to make a brutal 5-8 hour road trip.

Just pisses me off.

That is all.

__________________
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Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

kramus

... if you build it they will come ...

__________________
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silent_jay

Here in Ottawa we get the odd big band I guess, U2 is coming here for the first time in 20 years or something like that, but we usually get the shitty bands, like a few weeks ago we had Motley Crue at the Corel Center.

The Casino in Hull gets some cool acts, I'm considering going to see Michael Buble there sometime soon, they had Joe Cocker there a couple of years back. Other than that I can't really remember a really big name who has come here, but my memory isn't the greatest.

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Suave

You have to attract some people and get your cities above 300 000 people if you want bigger acts. :P

Also, I've noticed from concert listings that some bands/artists completely skip either Toronto or Vancouver and do a pairie tour. They seem to base their locations on a combination of population and popularity of their music in the area, so if you like country then the pairies are the place for you. :P

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"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

aberkok

I wonder if U2's presence in Ottawa has anything to do with the gentleman pictured in your Avatar. Perhaps they want to make a visit with their favourite Canadian political party?

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OFKU0

Ottawa gets some good stuff but gets by passed regularly. It isn't really for lack of venues just that support isn't that great. 1500 for Crosby, Stills and Nash a few years back in a building that holds 20,000 isn't a good showing. Styx got about 2500. Elton John got about 5000. Deep Purple is probably the next big act coming.

The Blues and Jazz festivals are very popular and people seem to support them probably because passes are available to see more than one act. It is getting better ( a little better) for local bands since more bars are willing to hire bands. (and pay them more than $150 a night) But still in a lot of ways, Ottawa rolls up the streets at 6:00 in the evening just like it always has.

Funny too, Ottawa has got to be the restaurant capital of the world. People line up to eat overpriced crap at East Side Mario's, Montana's or where ever, every night of the week and don't think twice about it, but getting people to support music and artists in this town is like pulling teeth.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

rockzilla

Yeah, the big acts skip Ottawa more often than not. The only reason U2 decided to come to here was because of Paul Martin. Ottawa usually gets shafted because we're so close to Toronto and Montreal.
The Pixies played the Robert Guertin Arena across the bridge in Gatineau last winter.
We get our fair share of big names though... Motorhead is coming in about 2 weeks... Collective Soul next month, I'm not a fan, but they're a big enough name.
I'm considering a drive to Montreal next month to see The Mars Volta, the only problem is I work the next morning and it's about a 2 hour drive home.

Charlatan

I have friends who saw U2 when they played Barrymore's in Ottawa on their first tour... The band had just had it's first cover of Rolling Stone the week before they got there...

Apparently a bunch of them hung out with the band after the show... all casual like.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Janey

I didn't realize that there were so many restaurants there.

anyways, it probably is because you can eat food, but you can only listen to music...

inhalo

19th Question.

Energy. How "green" is Canadian policy. How is the advancement of hydrogen cars affecting your culture. The states are way behind even with hybrids (Ford and GM have yet to release a hybrid). Yet, Iceland is already converting gas stations to hydro. Would you say that energy concerns are high among Canadians or do you follow the footsteps of your naive neighbour?

CandleInTheDark

I'll do my best to cover this question.

The government has annouced that $10 Billion dollars will be spent over the next 7 years to curb greenhous gas emissions by 270 megatonnes a year from '08 to '12.

Commitments (from government activities) include:
-Cut emissions from its facilities and activities by one-third.
-Draw 20 per cent of its electricity from renewable sources by 2010.
-Ensure new office buildings meet the highest environmental standards.
-Replace its vehicles more quickly and with fuel-efficient alternatives including hybrids.

"...the government and the industry had already reached agreement on a voluntary deal under which the automakers will produce cars that cut emissions by 5.3 megatonnes a year by 2010."

-CBC

We have, arguably, the best example of large scale sustainable industry, in the diamond mines of the territories.

The province of B.C. wants a "hydrogen highway" from Vancouver to Whistler for the 2010 Winter Olympics.

The majority of power is produced by hyrdoelectricity (56%), 28.3% from thermal (coal, natural gas etc.) and the rest from nuclear, solar, wind, etc. (source)

Plans are to increase production of electricity from renewable resources.

Which is a good thing, as per capita, Canada is the largest consumer of energy in the world.

__________________
Where there is doubt there is freedom.

inhalo

This is a shocker! Must be those cold winters, eh?

Thanks for the info

CandleInTheDark

not only the cold winters, but the transportation costs. Canada is a vast land.

__________________
Where there is doubt there is freedom.