Leto

I want to start yeasty discussion. It seems that the best way is to announce a position on bagels, step back and see what rises. I searched for a thread on bagels and was surprised to see that in TFP, there is a hole in our discourse. So, before we get all twisted, I onionated, I would like to get Everything out as far as I am concerned.

I grew up eating bagels that came from the grocery store. Dempsters, Wonder, no-name what ever. And I was happy about it. Every so often I would go to a fast food (Druxy's or The Great Canadian Bagel Co.) and get a special poppy seed, sesame seed or everything bagel toasted with some cream cheese.

And I was happy.

Until I had a Montreal Style bagel from St Urbain's. Apparently these are boiled in honey water, then baked in a stone oven. the result is a denser, flavourful bagel that is not bready.

Since then I search out Montreal bagels where ever I can. In Toronto, there are two places that make them: St Urbain's St. Lawrence Market Merchants: ST. URBAIN BAGELand Bagel House Bagel House: History | Authentic Montreal Wood Oven Bagels in Toronto. By far the best is the latter.

I found a forum on Chowhound that discusses this (see linky below, plus a post clipped out which is quite eloquent on the topic) but I would like to see what the consensus is in TFP land on this snack:

Montreal Style?
Toronto Style?
NYC Style? (what is NYC style anyways?)
Are there other styles that are even better?



Best Bagels in Toronto - Ontario (including Toronto) - Chowhound


I always enjoy the intensity of the discussions about bagels. I agree with you that an "authentic" bagel is the kind you grew up with. Whether that authentic bagel is also a good bagel is something else entirely.

There certainly are differences among the styles popular in different communities. Either a given style tastes good to you or it doesn't; either a specific baker's rendition of that style tastes good to you or it doesn't. It's simplistic.

I have lived in New York, Montreal, and Toronto. The bagels I grew up with in New York were hand shaped, boiled in sweetened water, and then baked, just like the Montreal version. Something must differ between them because the end products are as different from each other as a white sandwich bread is from a baguette. It may be ingredients, technique, or both. It is only partly about the oven. Both styles are bagels, but they are not the same kind of bread.

The New York bagels of the fifties were quite consistent. There was a bagel baker's union, and one needed to be more-or-less born into the craft. They were much fatter than the Montreal variety, had chewy interiors, were only slightly sweet, and were virtually inedible within a few hours. They were baked in an open hearth brick oven, but I never saw wood or coal - only gas or oil. They were almost impossible to find outside of New York. I understand that a purist version of these bagels is now hard to find in New York.

It was possible to get New York-ish bagels in Toronto a couple of decades ago. A franchised place around Yonge and St Clair (where Bregmans is today) didn't do a bad job. I recall (perhaps erroneously) that Lou Bregman's original Bagel King on Eglinton and the Harbord Bakery weren't half bad.

When I lived in Montreal in the sixties, what we think of as a Montreal bagel was a VERY local phenomenon. You could get them at exactly two places, St Viateur and Fairmont, which were (and still are) a few blocks apart. They were similar, but different, and each had its rabid fans. Much sweeter than New York bagels, much thinner, and baked until much darker. The wood ovens gave a distinctive flavour and were probably hotter than the ovens in New York. Like New York bagels, they are chewy. They are edible for more hours than New York bagels, but still turn to rock within a day. Aside from these two places, there was nothing special about a Montreal bagel in the sixties. To my palate, Bagel House on Bayview makes a damn fine version today.

As to the shtetl, I doubt that anyone really knows. Many in New York shunned bagels for something called a Bialy. Bialy's apparently have known European roots, but are available only in New York. The classic New York bagel, whatever it's origins, was apparently perfected by a trade union in New York. The Montreal bagel was perfected at two bakeries in Montreal. Shtetl, shmetl... Hell, the two original makers of frozen bagels (Abel in Buffalo and Lender in West Haven Ct) could never agree on who first invented this product, which goes back only to the nineteen fifties.

Which brings us to Toronto. There is, indeed, a "Toronto bagel" and it is made by Gryfe's. I recall a published interview that described the conscious development of a fluffier bagel for "local tastes". I don't like these bagels all that much, and I personally consider tham to be "buns", but really they are indeed bagels - of a very different style.

Bagel World's twisters also seem a uniquely Toronto item and they, too, are fluffy. I don't really think of a twister as a bagel, but simply as itself. (My possibly flawed understanding is that Bagel World and Kiva's have a common origin, but I suspect this post will be killed if I posit the details.) Most other Jewish-style Toronto bagels seem to approach the New York model, though not all that well. If you like one, than it is good. Of the non-Montreal bagels I've had recently, I give the nod to Bagel World's regular (non-twister) version. Is it "authentic"? Who cares?

Which brings us to unequivocally inauthentic bagels. Bagels do not contain fat -- any fat. But today I see bagels that contain not only fat, but lard. Lard? In a bagel? THAT is a joke.

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You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

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Lindy

I donut care...

jewels

Grew up on New York bagels and miss 'em like hell. Real onion bialys too.

No matter how loudly a Floridian establishment proclaims they have authentic or New York-style bagels, they don't even come close. Maybe it really is the water.

I've definitely indulged in some bagels here, but they're something completely different.

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We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
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LordEden

There is a really good bagel place about 5 minutes from my work, they make scratch made bagels and they are the best in town.

I've never had bagels from outside NC, I'd love to try NYC vs Canadian made bagels.

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Charlatan

Leto... I hate you.

Until about a year ago, it was difficult to find bagels in Singapore. I can attest that it is utterly impossible to find Montreal bagels in Singapore.

Recently, Starbucks started to have them and they starting to be available in some grocery stores. Singapore doesn't do bread very well and bagels less so.

When I was in Montreal this summer, I made a point of eating bagels (oh yes I did).

I am now frequently found in Starbucks buying half decent bagels. This thread only serves to remind me that I am living with substandard choices.

Now I am going to spend the day thinking of Montreal bagels.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
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Leto

But what is a NYC bagel like? are they thick and puffy? thinner and dense? boiled in honey water? What makes 'em authentic? There's a jewelry store here in Toronto that advertises NYC bagels flown in fresh for their customers. I may just drop by to see what the buzz is about. By the way, I was in NYC last summer, but couldn't find a bagel shop.

---------- Post added at 11:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 PM ----------

sorry bud.... but at least I can make you feel better: Leafs won tonight against the Islanders.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Charlatan

Shallow consolation. This morning's overly stale Starbucks bagel pushed me over the edge.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

jewels

They're not humongous like an Einstein bagel, they're not too small like a Lenders bagel. They're just right. I don't know how they're made but I don't think the water contains any sweetener. They're soft and ever-so-slightly chewy on the inside, crisp but not hard outside.

They're allowed to be consumed with butter or cream cheese along with scallions, onions and/or smoked fish. And don't forget: Toasting a bagel is a crime.

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We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Lindy

Oh no!Not just bagel snobs. Bagel police too.

Lindy

Leto

yeah, I have a problem with that as well. I was mildly ticked off when I bought a bagel at Starbucks ( a few years back) and they didn't have a toaster. What was I supposed to do? Eat it cold and plain like a dry piece of bread?

Of course that was before I was introduced to Montreal style bagels which stand up on their own for flavour. But still, I think a nicely toasted sesame seed bagel, a little butter melting into it and a cream cheese of your choice (smoked salmon is great) is a piece of heaven on earth.


so yeah. I go toasted whenever possible, but not necessary of those babies have just come out of a wood fired oven...

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Baraka_Guru

For some reason, the people I grew up around considered bagels to be the inferior store-bought ones, heavily toasted and slathered in cream cheese.

There was no other way to eat a bagel.

And so I thought I didn't like bagels. This is because I don't really like cream cheese unless it's an ingredient in desserts.

So when I moved to Toronto and finally had a real bagel or two, I realized that I do indeed really like them. There's nothing wrong with a bagel with *some* cream cheese and lox. Actually, it's quite delicious. However, if you order a bagel at Tim Hortons, they're going to want to destroy it.

The great thing about Toronto (and Montreal, mind you) is that the city is well covered by the services of rather decent kosher bakeries and butchers. Top quality stuff.

I enjoy bagels on their own, untoasted. More or less like eating a donut. If it's a good bagel, it's all you need. However, I do enjoy making sandwiches out of bagels as well.

I'll eat a toasted bagel with some butter and enjoy that as well. The cream cheese I'll only enjoy if it's with the lox or in a sandwich.

I've never had a Montreal bagel. I really should the next time I'm there.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Charlatan

You guys are killing me...

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Baraka_Guru

Charlatan, does that mean I should refrain from starting a thread on artisan bread?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Charlatan

Oddly, I just found a place here that does excellent artisan breads. Problem is, it's on the other side of the island from me. I may have to get it delivered.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

cruisinmags

actually eating one right now! how did uknow...?

noodle

This is how a typical NYC style bagel looks, in my experience. Just not sesame seed, blech.


I prefer mine completely plain or as a nova bagel. Period.
I'm a bagel snob. I hate Panera Bread bagels and the ones in the grocery stores.
I got spoiled when I visited New York a few years ago very brielfy.
Zabar's bagel was horriffic... but Artie's... oh heavens, an Artie's Nova Bagel.
There is a place here, ironically enough called "Bagels-R-Us" that does straight up New York water bagels... I can only allow myself to go every once in awhile because bagels are not on my "diet", but damn. They are delicious. The family is Vietnamese and lived in NYC for years and got a recipe from a Jewish baker.
Oh man, breakfast tomorrow.... If only I could find a real knisch, I'd be in heaven.

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Leto

That looks really thick... but the sesame seeds look fantastic. What is a Nova Bagel?

I always feel that if I have a bagel without sesame seeds on it, I have just wasted an opportunity to improve my life.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

jewels

Smoked salmon a/k/a lox. Lower salt version than "belly" lox.

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We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Baraka_Guru

"Nova" originally referred to the salmon's source (at one time): Nova Scotia. Now it means what jewels said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lox

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

jewels

Cool. I think there's a vague recollection of once being told that as a kid. My, now I can see how those ethnic legends get passed down.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

noodle

It's not just the salmon though... it's all of it. The onions, tomato, lox, cream cheese, capers, and cucumbers, which I prefer to eat separately. And best on an everything bagel.
Served like this...


Eaten like this...



drool...

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jewels

Now you're playing dirty.

Good stuff, yes. But my absolute favorite is smoked sable on a garlic bagel. Closest I could find is this.



Then again, any of this would be lovely.



Hand sliced nova, sable and baked salmon, with plain, scallion and vegi cream cheese on a bed of lettuce, with cherry tomatoes and olives

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Charlatan

Noodle, that NYC bagel looks incredibly fat. It might as well be a kaiser bun. Here, for reference is a comparison between a Montreal and a NYC bagel.



Baked with a wood fire...


(why do I do this to myself?)

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Leto

This thread just transcended itself. The pictures are incredible. I could eat that 'Nova' all day. I have to agree with Charlatan wrt to the bagel itself. I would love to assemble the Nova fixin's on the Montreal style bagels.

That would be spectacular. And has become my mission.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Baraka_Guru

I think you're onto something there.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Lindy

The trouble with bagel sandwiches... I would take one bite of this, and the rest would squish out the other side and end up on my lap.

Lindy

Daka

There are no bagels like NYC!! There was a place on 6th avenue and Blecker St, umm.... 25 years ago BAGELS ON THE SQUARE ..just a schmear of cream cheese.....yum
I remember when they used to cost a nickel...many, many years ago, they went to six cents and my mother revolted..we didn't have bagels for months..................now bagels almost a dollar a piece..and no more bakers dozen..
We are on vacation in Paris, Bagels in the Marais (Jewish section) are pretty good....(almost NYC)

Leto

maybe so, but not as good as MTL....

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Zeraph

I fuckin hate bagels! Seriously. Anything but a bagel. English Muffin, Muffin, random Bread.

Charlatan

Sick of paying too much for bagels (and sub-standard ones at that) I have taken matters into my own hands and started to bake my own bagels.

Crazy, I know.

So far I have made two batches and while they weren't perfect, they were pretty good.

I am planning on making another batch this weekend. I spoke with my friend, who is a trained pastry chef, and she says that one of my issues could be that I am over-proofing my dough. I did follow the recipe exactly but with the added heat and humidity here, I need to adjust things like the length of proofing time and the amount of water (my first batch was way too sticky).

Armed with a new recipe, I hope to get closer to the perfection I am seeking.

Now if only I had a wood burning oven...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Leto

Cool. good luck. Are you boiling them in honey water prior to baking?

How about proofing the dough in the fridge to retard the rise? Just cover with a tea towel and proof it longer. The fridge should reduce the humidity as well.

I saw that the Loblaws Superstore is now supplying Montreal style bagels along with their regular selection of loose bagels.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Charlatan

I didn't have any honey so I just used some very dark brown sugar.

I am going to make two batches (if I can) this weekend. I am going to try one in the fridge and the other, I am just going to give less time on the counter.

(by the way, just for reference, this past week has seen days of 33-35C with around 90-98% humidity. Even getting up to bake at 5 am, it's still around 28C and high humidity.)

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Charlatan

Montreal Bagels? Check!

I just need to get some malt powder (and a wood-fired oven) and I will have the perfect Montreal Bagels. As they are, they are pretty fucking awesome right now.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Leto

Pictures!

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Charlatan

As requested...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

snowy

I got mine at the homebrew store. My husband and I share a bag--I use it for bread, he uses it to save yeast from brews.

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Leto

Nice bagels Charlatan!

Look perfectly made, how did they taste?

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Charlatan

Thanks Leto, they tasted great. I have sourced some malt powder but I don't think I will have access to a wood fired oven anytime soon.

That aside, they were dense, chewy and sweetish with a slightly crisp exterior. The crispness didn't last long out of the oven but it was there. I was away this weekend but will be back to baking next weekend.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke