What does "fiscal responsiblity" mean to you? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 02-20-2009, 02:40 PM

For some fiscal responsibility means spending only what they earn. For others, it encompasses the ability to borrow money at reasonable interest for somethings and so long as one can repay the outstanding debt within an reasonable time period.

We hear it bandied about by parents in some fashion about wasteful spending, from politicians about balanced budgets, etc.

What does it mean to you as an individual? How do you keep yourself "fiscally responsible?"

To me fiscal responsibility is simply stated as your outgo not exceeding your income. This means that one can have credit/debt to some degree, but the challenge is what is permissible debt and luxurious debt. For me there's only a few reasons to be in debt, that's because paying for a house or education is near impossible to purchase with cash.

It means that sometimes I can't have what I want when I want it just because I want it. It isn't fiscally responsible to keep purchasing depreciating items such as cars, cellphones, designer clothes, and the like.

It means sometimes delaying gratification until all other responsibilities are met.

Baraka_Guru · 02-20-2009, 03:18 PM

In simplest terms, to me it means being conscious of my spending, and to do it in a way that I can manage.

I usually go for days between times where I spend money, so when I do so, it's only after I've thought about it for a while. On average, I spend maybe once a week. A purchase over $30 happens maybe once or twice per month. The latter kind of spending only happens when I know I have the cash flow or I need something badly enough to use a credit card to get it. (This doesn't include obvious things such as rent, banking charges, debt payments, and other regular expenses.)

"Fiscal responsibility" means my debt is steadily decreasing, not increasing.

I recently peeked at my credit score for the first time in my life. I'm only 20 points away from the highest credit echelon, where I'd be deemed to have "excellent" credit. My credit rating is above the 65th percentile in Canada.

I have a low income, and my current debt-to-income ratio would appall many of you, but that doesn't stop me from being responsible and having it show.

Xerxys · 02-20-2009, 05:23 PM

Wow, B_G, just wow..... My spending well, lately, would appall all of you. I recently had to pay off my credit cards and freeze all my savings account off limits in order to make sure I return to the highest possible amount ready to spend.

Fiscal responsibility to me means having no debt whatsoever incurred by items that are not sustainable or even useful... i.e. cars, spending big money to get that big screen TV, cell phones etc etc, basically what was outlined in the OP. My debt ratio is less than 50% because I made some good and bad judgments along the way of moving out but I still have a bad score.

I am working to owe absolutely nothing before I make any changes in my life at all. I also dream of being able to send my kids to college before I have them. (3 that is) That to me is fiscal responsibility, to be able to get anything when I want it and not chew at corners in the end.

ASU2003 · 02-20-2009, 06:38 PM

Simple answer, you don't buy things you can't afford.

Having enough in savings, lowering bills and expenditures, conserving consumables, planning for the future and reusing items are all good ways to be fiscally conservative.

Now charity, helping others, building projects that a single person can't fund, and living the life you want are good things to do if you have enough money or a good government should help organize. A government that is fiscally responsible is one that has a balanced budget, finds cheaper ways to do things, and will raise taxes if necessary spending requires it to.

Aladdin Sane · 02-21-2009, 02:43 PM

Being fiscally responsible means being punished by the U.S. government.

gardens · 02-24-2009, 03:12 PM

not living paycheck to paycheck
having money in the bank as well as a separate emergency fund thats for just that emergencies, not taking money from your retirement fund

being able to pay more then the minimum balance on your credit cards, and completely paying them off at least once a year

having a basic understanding of what each loan you take out means both in terms of what the language in it says as well as knowing that you won't be able to buy the new 80$ video game your kid wants every week

this is not to say that I am fiscally responsible only what it means to me, as I live now I am not fiscally responsible

genuinegirly · 02-24-2009, 06:46 PM

Working out a budget is crucial. Knowing how much is coming in and how much of that must go to necessities each and every month. Having a substantial cushion to save each month so you have something if the world doesn't play out as you expect.

Monthly expenses can include a regular car payment, mortgage, or other large expense that must be financed. I'm hesitant to jump into such arrangements, though. I had a heck of a time paying off my car and don't want to go through that experience with a house.

Education does not fall into the list of permissible debt in my mind. I have been able to fund my education or have sought grants to fund my education. There is no reason to go into debt for university or graduate school. Find a field of study that will pay for you if you can't pay it, dangit. There are enough doctors and lawyers out there. Getting out of school with more debt than you can hope to pay off in a year doesn't make sense in my mind.

ASU2003 · 02-25-2009, 04:46 AM

Education debt is ok. You are making an investment in yourself, and as long as you are gaining knowledge on how to be a smarter, more productive person, and at the same time eligible for a stable job that will help you pay back the loan in a few years after graduating, that is ok. You will be working for many years, you might as well hope to be able to make it in a field that you enjoy.

And working while going to school doesn't work for everybody. And I'm not sure how common it is for parents to help pay for college.

genuinegirly · 02-25-2009, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASU2003

And working while going to school doesn't work for everybody.

It doesn't work for most people. That's why there are grants and scholarships. If one can't find them, one isn't smart enough to get through school. /end rant

Baraka_Guru · 02-25-2009, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genuinegirly

Education does not fall into the list of permissible debt in my mind. I have been able to fund my education or have sought grants to fund my education. There is no reason to go into debt for university or graduate school. Find a field of study that will pay for you if you can't pay it, dangit. There are enough doctors and lawyers out there. Getting out of school with more debt than you can hope to pay off in a year doesn't make sense in my mind.

Interesting you should say that. If I abided by this, I would still have just a high-school diploma.

I work in publishing. I sincerely doubt they'd pay anyone for university education...many publishers don't even pay for training: you need to get it before you get a job.

It isn't feasible for most people to go to school without going into debt, and I mean to the tune of an amount that requires a 5- or 10-year payment schedule. This is common, and it is a reality for those of us who live in the post-industrial world and are a part of the lower or lower-middle class. The number of scholarships and grants and bursaries available are limited in that very few people can fund more than 10 or 15% of their education with them—25%, if they're lucky. This is most people.

Furthermore, student loans—for the most part—aren't considered bad debts; they're good debts, especially since they got you an education (and therefore a higher income), plus the interest you pay on the debt is tax deductible and usually at a lower interest rate than most bad debt.

The alternative? A much lower income for 40+ years of a working life. Do the math.

Cynthetiq · 02-25-2009, 07:04 AM

I was a bit taken aback by the comment as well, but here's the thing I thought of as I rode the bus into work.

If you knew someone left $20 on the way to where you were going to lunch would you stop and pick it up? If you knew someone left $20 on the way to where you were going to lunch but you had to deviate from the path a little bit, maybe 1/2 block or even just turn your head and look to the right to see the money on the ledge instead of the sidewalk, wouldn't it make sense to pick it up or at least look for it?

Now I didn't qualify for many grants and scholarships when I was going to college. At least not those that I could find on my own. I think today with services and internet, I'm sure one can find even a simple grant that they qualify for, maybe I'm naive, but heck because of this response in my gmail account I got an ad for Tylenol's $250,000 medical scholarship for those getting educations in the medical field.

This brings me to a different point, where I had created a program at work to reward people who did their own learning for technology on their own outside of work. Those that were learning cutting edge IT on their own time and dime. All they had to do was write a 10 page paper on it and they were award $2,500. I called it the $2,500 book report. It was available for 1 year, 4 times, only a small handful of people applied of the 100 customer support people.

I can tell you that I don't clip coupons, and if I do I may have them in my wallet and forget to use them when I make a purchase. Fiscally irresponsible to someone I'm sure...

But BG I agree that getting an education even with a debt load to get higher wages over a lifetime is the same thought as taking a 30 year loan and paying a $2,000 mortgage in 2029 with 2008 dollars makes total sense.

braisler · 02-25-2009, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Furthermore, student loans—for the most part—aren't considered bad debts; they're good debts, especially since they got you an education (and therefore a higher income), plus the interest you pay on the debt is tax deductible and usually at a lower interest rate than most bad debt.

The alternative? A much lower income for 40+ years of a working life. Do the math.

There was a program on NPR that I listened to some months ago that highlighted the disconnect between higher education and higher paying jobs. Basically, the argument was that universities are doing a disservice to a certain segment of the enrolling students, and that the segment was larger than anyone anticipated. The intention of higher education is to add value to the potential employment and pay level of the student. But there are a number of big IFs along the way. IF the student entering a program actually finishes it, a certain percentage never do. IF the student matches their major to areas where employment will be available. IF the student doesn't accrue so much debt as to negate the positives of higher pay after graduation.

Obviously, this doesn't take into account the other, less tangible benefits of furthering your education. Better job satisfaction, increased flexibility in job opportunities, social networking all can be increased by attending university. But from a purely fiscal responsibility standpoint, it is not the best option for all students.

As part of the NPR program, they interviewed a licensed electrician who ran his own small company. He started working right out of high school. Now he hires other kids right out of high school too. No experience needed, just a desire to work and learn. Apprentice electricians start for him at a pay rate of $35K per year. Not great, but not too bad for a 17/18 year old. Pay rates for licensed electricians are more like $50-70K and that can be accomplished in 5-8 years from starting. Then, if you are like the guy being interviewed and start your own electrical service company, you have additional income potential.

Yes, I agree, if you run the numbers, you will probably do better with a higher education IF you can predict the right area for maximal employment etc. If you are a fiscally responsible person, you can probably do quite well for yourself starting work right out of high school, setting aside a portion of your income for investment, and letting that investment compound from the very beginning.

I think that there is a bias among those of us who have a higher degree to assume that ours is the best way to ensure economic security for ourselves. I'm not so sure that it is always the case.

Baraka_Guru · 02-25-2009, 08:06 AM

braisler, good points.

As one who has a college diploma, a university degree, and a few post-degree course credits, I understand the variance between levels of education and training. This is almost another topic altogether, but I agree with you: college & university isn't' for everyone, and some do better in college, while others do better in university—and then there are the trades, or tech schools, etc. I'm not very mechanically inclined, which is why I chose the college/university route. And I'm most comfortable with languages, which is why I chose the English/editor route. Everyone needs to find the route that works for them...something they enjoy and can make money doing it...and maybe they'd even do it if they weren't paid for it.

This also means that some require a larger debt load than others to get the credentials they need. In many ways, I envy my brother who makes more than I do but didn't complete college. He got into the trades and now has a gas-burner's license and a few others...all paid for by his employer.

But, generally speaking (sometimes a dangerous thing to do), higher education leads to a higher income...one needs to leverage it properly for this to work. But you've pointed this out already. And this does not necessarily mean a higher education makes one more money than those who have other forms of training instead.

genuinegirly · 02-26-2009, 06:53 AM

Fiscal responsibility as it relates to higher education:

1) You're more likely to find funding for a field that needs more specialists.

2) If a current student can't navigate the financial aid/scholarship/grant circuit, they will not develop necessary skills for navigating the bureaucracies that they will face later in life.

3) The College/University financial aid system is increasingly easy to navigate due to internet search programs and financial aid counselors. I didn't believe it would be easy when I started - I paid out of pocket my first couple of years of university. But then I realized that I couldn't find a work schedule that would permit me to attend my upper-division lab classes. So I broke down and went to the financial aid office. I coudn't believe how easy the system is. I felt stupid for paying for my education out of pocket previously.

4) There are fields that do not offer any funding aid. Leave these to the exceptionally wealthy. Part of living your life comfortably is accepting financial reality.

If you spend $70,000/year for two years pursuing an MFA, then paint out of your garage for the rest of your life, you're probably not going to make up that "reasonable" educational debt.

If you spend $30,000/year pursuing your undergraduate in creative writing, then work as a freelance poet with no connections, you're probably not going to pay off that "reasonable" educational debt.

If you spend $100,000 on an MBA program, then land a job as an auditor, you're probably not going to pay off that "reasonable" educational debt.

If you spend $200,000 and several years of your life becoming a physician, only to enter a socialized healthcare system where you can't earn more than $60,000/year, you're probably not going to pay off that "reasonable" educational debt.

Just because you study a certain field doesn't mean you're going to find a profitable job in that field. If you pay nothing for your edcuation in a field that needs workers and is willing to pay for their training, you're going to be more successful overall.
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Fiscal responsibility isn't about using coupons.
Coupons are designed by manufacturers to get you hooked on a product, not to save you money. It's better to avoid consumer culture and the coupons that come along with them.
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Fiscal responsibility is about knowing when to save and when to spend. When there's more money coming in - save it.
When there's less or no money coming in - try not to spend what you've saved.

That's all there is to it. Don't over-spend. If you see a little extra cash coming in unexpectedly, don't increase your budget by adopting senseless expenses. If you can't see yourself affording your lifestyle with half of your income, you shouldn't be living that lifestyle.

------------------------------------------------------
I realize I have a different slant on finances than most people. You don't need to agree with any of my statements. Thank you for the stimulating conversation, none the less.

Cynthetiq · 02-26-2009, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genuinegirly

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Fiscal responsibility isn't about using coupons.
Coupons are designed by manufacturers to get you hooked on a product, not to save you money. It's better to avoid consumer culture and the coupons that come along with them.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Fiscal responsibility is about knowing when to save and when to spend. When there's more money coming in - save it.
When there's less or no money coming in - try not to spend what you've saved.

That's all there is to it. Don't over-spend. If you see a little extra cash coming in unexpectedly, don't increase your budget by adopting senseless expenses. If you can't see yourself affording your lifestyle with half of your income, you shouldn't be living that lifestyle.

The bottom part is the crux of this, just like the Calories thread I started yesterday, it really is as simple as that.

But the first part the consumer/coupon culture. You don't make all your own products, and if there is a coupon that allows you to save money on products you normally purchase, why wouldn't you use it?

Baraka_Guru · 02-26-2009, 07:21 AM

gg, I agree with you for the most part on your first few points, but I still maintain that there are limitations. I received bursaries and grants but still ended up with $30,000 in student loans. All these financial programs vary by program as well. So not all students have the same run at money as others do. Also, there is only so much funding available, which means there's always some who have to do without enough money to pay for a sizable chunk of the education, which I think just might be the majority.

This, however:

Quote:

4) There are fields that do not offer any funding aid. Leave these to the exceptionally wealthy. Part of living your life comfortably is accepting financial reality.

The death of the arts degree.

I should have never went to university....

genuinegirly · 02-26-2009, 07:34 AM

Quote:

...You don't make all your own products, and if there is a coupon that allows you to save money on products you normally purchase, why wouldn't you use it?

I do try to find coupons for products that I regularly purchase. But it's much more frustrating than anything - flip through a typical Sunday-issue P&G coupon book with me. How many coupons do you see for butter? For flour? Eggs? Rice? Maybe there's some for cheese and yogurt - but produce?

What do you see? Dog food, processed foods, frozen food, cold & flu medications, hair dye, shampoo, cereal, toothpaste - all of these the more expensive brands that I wouldn't purchase in the first place.

Whenever I come across a coupon for a product that I use, I will use that coupon. Unfortunately I rarely find coupons for what I actually use. Instead I sort through hundreds of coupons that are nothing more than advertisements for products I will never purchase.

---------- Post added at 07:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 AM ----------

Quote:

The death of the arts degree.

You think so? I tend to think it would change the dynamic of an arts degree, but not kill it off completely.

Quote:

I should have never went to university....

You honestly think so?
I realize as I write this that you're in Toronto. The educational system there is likely different than the one I interact with on a daily basis.

Do you feel that you brought your educational costs down to a reasonable level? Do you find yourself using your degree? I think you do. Have you been able to manage your academic debt in a way that is to your liking?

Perhaps I have a greater distaste for debt than most. I'd rather avoid it completely.

Cynthetiq · 02-26-2009, 07:41 AM

I agree. I think the question is how far out of the way do you go to "save" that money for the coupon. Since I don't clip coupons and won't sit and flip through the Sunday circular.. I only use discounts that make sense for me and it sounds like you do too.

Which reminds me... i have to look at something at Frugality and if it's not there to add it...

Baraka_Guru · 02-26-2009, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genuinegirly

You think so? I tend to think it would change the dynamic of an arts degree, but not kill it off completely.

I could be wrong, but I tend to think that the exceptionally wealthy aren't nearly as interested in an active participation in the arts as they have been in the past. I was exaggerating, I suppose. But I do think it would die off and be reserved for those institutions where the study of the arts has a bit of recognition and esteem—the major well-established universities, for example.

Quote:

You honestly think so?
I realize as I write this that you're in Toronto. The educational system there is likely different than the one I interact with on a daily basis.

Do you feel that you brought your educational costs down to a reasonable level? Do you find yourself using your degree? I think you do. Have you been able to manage your academic debt in a way that is to your liking?

I'm sure the education system varies between U.S. and Canada. But the reality is, it's been getting really expensive. I just read a headline this morning: "25 percent tuition hikes considered." This after tuition has already increased several-fold since the '70s. I think the problem is in the difference between a university degree (and arts vs. other studies, even), a college degree, and some other formal vocational programs. There has been a bit of an ongoing fragmentation. "Higher education" used to mean "university." Now it means: "What you do after high school." I guess university and college are getting more expensive to remain competitive internationally and also vs. vocational programs that seem to be cropping up everywhere and for good reason.

But as for me: I had brought my educational costs down by a few thousand dollars using scholarships, grants, and bursaries. Much of my loan helped cover living expenses too. I had no support from anyone else; the only support I received other than student loans, bursaries, and such was from my part-time job. Did it bring it down to a reasonable level? Well, this is subjective, of course. It's reasonable to me because the alternative would have been to not go to post-secondary studies at all, and I'd hate to know what would have happened then. (It wasn't until after I graduated high school that I determined whether I was going to continue my education at all.) My loans will be paid off after 10 years, which is actually quite common for people in my position (a lot of graduates, generally). I currently pay $300/month to service the debt, and it will stay that way until it's done after the 10 years. I say that's reasonable, considering. And it's been fairly manageable. I haven't found it to be too much of a burden so far (again, considering the alternatives).

And, yes, I am using my degree and diploma every day. They taught me skills in reading, writing, editing, critical analysis (both literary and business-related), computers, working in groups, working alone, business, literary critique, presentations, math, finance, managing people, etc., and the list goes on—all of which I use regularly in my career.

Quote:

Perhaps I have a greater distaste for debt than most. I'd rather avoid it completely.

I have a certain level of distaste for debt as well. But with all the financial knowledge I've picked up in business school and in publishing, I know there is a clear distinction between good debt and bad debt. The bottom line: without debt, I would not be the person I am today; I would not have the earning potential I have and will have. Once the 10 years is up, that frees up $300/month that I will use to pay off other debts. If I have none by that time, it will go into investments or lump sums to pay down a mortgage when I get one (which should be soon).

Fiscal responsibility also means using debt to your advantage, and managing it in an efficient manner. We all know about leverage, right? Well, I look at this as a kind of leverage.

genuinegirly · 02-27-2009, 07:21 AM

Fascinating. I can see how making payments for your educational loans will allow you to build good credit. I suppose I'm too short-sighted. I can't see myself making enough money to throw an extra $300/month into anything other than housing or food.

Xerxys · 02-27-2009, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genuinegirly

... I can't see myself making enough money to throw an extra $300/month into anything other than housing or food.

Must work on this......

genuinegirly · 02-27-2009, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xerxys

Must work on this......

You think so?
For $300 more/month, I could have a much nicer place. Or I could eat out regularly. I'd rather not spend that same $300/month paying down a debt.

Baraka_Guru · 02-27-2009, 08:47 AM

For the record, I'm just a few points from an 800+ credit rating (out of 900), meaning "excellent." I owe much of that to my student loan payments, yes.

snowy · 02-27-2009, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

For the record, I'm just a few points from an 800+ credit rating (out of 900), meaning "excellent." I owe much of that to my student loan payments, yes.

I wouldn't have credit if it weren't for my student loan payments. Paying them on time helped establish and maintain my good credit score.

I consider my education a worthwhile investment--aka "good debt." Yes, my SO and I will have student loan payments after we're all done with our schooling, but we'll also have considerably more earning power than we would have if we hadn't gone to university.

Xerxys · 02-27-2009, 08:56 AM

Hmmmm. I think I have a skewed view but what if, after all the math, I told you, you would earn what you earn now monthly, plus 350 .... if you would pay me 300?

I think even the smallest difference would make some sort of change in my life.. I will be back with solidly crunched numbers.

02-20-2009, 02:40 PM	#1 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	What does "fiscal responsiblity" mean to you? For some fiscal responsibility means spending only what they earn. For others, it encompasses the ability to borrow money at reasonable interest for somethings and so long as one can repay the outstanding debt within an reasonable time period. We hear it bandied about by parents in some fashion about wasteful spending, from politicians about balanced budgets, etc. What does it mean to you as an individual? How do you keep yourself "fiscally responsible?" To me fiscal responsibility is simply stated as your outgo not exceeding your income. This means that one can have credit/debt to some degree, but the challenge is what is permissible debt and luxurious debt. For me there's only a few reasons to be in debt, that's because paying for a house or education is near impossible to purchase with cash. It means that sometimes I can't have what I want when I want it just because I want it. It isn't fiscally responsible to keep purchasing depreciating items such as cars, cellphones, designer clothes, and the like. It means sometimes delaying gratification until all other responsibilities are met. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

02-20-2009, 03:18 PM	#2 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	In simplest terms, to me it means being conscious of my spending, and to do it in a way that I can manage. I usually go for days between times where I spend money, so when I do so, it's only after I've thought about it for a while. On average, I spend maybe once a week. A purchase over $30 happens maybe once or twice per month. The latter kind of spending only happens when I know I have the cash flow or I need something badly enough to use a credit card to get it. (This doesn't include obvious things such as rent, banking charges, debt payments, and other regular expenses.) "Fiscal responsibility" means my debt is steadily decreasing, not increasing. I recently peeked at my credit score for the first time in my life. I'm only 20 points away from the highest credit echelon, where I'd be deemed to have "excellent" credit. My credit rating is above the 65th percentile in Canada. I have a low income, and my current debt-to-income ratio would appall many of you, but that doesn't stop me from being responsible and having it show. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 02-20-2009 at 03:28 PM..

02-21-2009, 02:43 PM	#5 (permalink)
Aladdin Sane Degenerate Location: San Marvelous	Being fiscally responsible means being punished by the U.S. government. __________________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

02-24-2009, 06:46 PM	#7 (permalink)
genuinegirly Eat your vegetables Super Moderator Location: Arabidopsis-ville	Working out a budget is crucial. Knowing how much is coming in and how much of that must go to necessities each and every month. Having a substantial cushion to save each month so you have something if the world doesn't play out as you expect. Monthly expenses can include a regular car payment, mortgage, or other large expense that must be financed. I'm hesitant to jump into such arrangements, though. I had a heck of a time paying off my car and don't want to go through that experience with a house. Education does not fall into the list of permissible debt in my mind. I have been able to fund my education or have sought grants to fund my education. There is no reason to go into debt for university or graduate school. Find a field of study that will pay for you if you can't pay it, dangit. There are enough doctors and lawyers out there. Getting out of school with more debt than you can hope to pay off in a year doesn't make sense in my mind. __________________ "Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

02-25-2009, 07:04 AM	#11 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I was a bit taken aback by the comment as well, but here's the thing I thought of as I rode the bus into work. If you knew someone left $20 on the way to where you were going to lunch would you stop and pick it up? If you knew someone left $20 on the way to where you were going to lunch but you had to deviate from the path a little bit, maybe 1/2 block or even just turn your head and look to the right to see the money on the ledge instead of the sidewalk, wouldn't it make sense to pick it up or at least look for it? Now I didn't qualify for many grants and scholarships when I was going to college. At least not those that I could find on my own. I think today with services and internet, I'm sure one can find even a simple grant that they qualify for, maybe I'm naive, but heck because of this response in my gmail account I got an ad for Tylenol's $250,000 medical scholarship for those getting educations in the medical field. This brings me to a different point, where I had created a program at work to reward people who did their own learning for technology on their own outside of work. Those that were learning cutting edge IT on their own time and dime. All they had to do was write a 10 page paper on it and they were award $2,500. I called it the $2,500 book report. It was available for 1 year, 4 times, only a small handful of people applied of the 100 customer support people. I can tell you that I don't clip coupons, and if I do I may have them in my wallet and forget to use them when I make a purchase. Fiscally irresponsible to someone I'm sure... But BG I agree that getting an education even with a debt load to get higher wages over a lifetime is the same thought as taking a 30 year loan and paying a $2,000 mortgage in 2029 with 2008 dollars makes total sense. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

02-20-2009, 05:23 PM	#3 (permalink)
Xerxys Junkie Location: My head.	Wow, B_G, just wow..... My spending well, lately, would appall all of you. I recently had to pay off my credit cards and freeze all my savings account off limits in order to make sure I return to the highest possible amount ready to spend. Fiscal responsibility to me means having no debt whatsoever incurred by items that are not sustainable or even useful... i.e. cars, spending big money to get that big screen TV, cell phones etc etc, basically what was outlined in the OP. My debt ratio is less than 50% because I made some good and bad judgments along the way of moving out but I still have a bad score. I am working to owe absolutely nothing before I make any changes in my life at all. I also dream of being able to send my kids to college before I have them. (3 that is) That to me is fiscal responsibility, to be able to get anything when I want it and not chew at corners in the end.

02-20-2009, 06:38 PM	#4 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	Simple answer, you don't buy things you can't afford. Having enough in savings, lowering bills and expenditures, conserving consumables, planning for the future and reusing items are all good ways to be fiscally conservative. Now charity, helping others, building projects that a single person can't fund, and living the life you want are good things to do if you have enough money or a good government should help organize. A government that is fiscally responsible is one that has a balanced budget, finds cheaper ways to do things, and will raise taxes if necessary spending requires it to.

02-24-2009, 03:12 PM	#6 (permalink)
gardens Tilted Location: Kolob	not living paycheck to paycheck having money in the bank as well as a separate emergency fund thats for just that emergencies, not taking money from your retirement fund being able to pay more then the minimum balance on your credit cards, and completely paying them off at least once a year having a basic understanding of what each loan you take out means both in terms of what the language in it says as well as knowing that you won't be able to buy the new 80$ video game your kid wants every week this is not to say that I am fiscally responsible only what it means to me, as I live now I am not fiscally responsible

02-25-2009, 04:46 AM	#8 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	Education debt is ok. You are making an investment in yourself, and as long as you are gaining knowledge on how to be a smarter, more productive person, and at the same time eligible for a stable job that will help you pay back the loan in a few years after graduating, that is ok. You will be working for many years, you might as well hope to be able to make it in a field that you enjoy. And working while going to school doesn't work for everybody. And I'm not sure how common it is for parents to help pay for college.

02-25-2009, 08:06 AM	#13 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	braisler, good points. As one who has a college diploma, a university degree, and a few post-degree course credits, I understand the variance between levels of education and training. This is almost another topic altogether, but I agree with you: college & university isn't' for everyone, and some do better in college, while others do better in university—and then there are the trades, or tech schools, etc. I'm not very mechanically inclined, which is why I chose the college/university route. And I'm most comfortable with languages, which is why I chose the English/editor route. Everyone needs to find the route that works for them...something they enjoy and can make money doing it...and maybe they'd even do it if they weren't paid for it. This also means that some require a larger debt load than others to get the credentials they need. In many ways, I envy my brother who makes more than I do but didn't complete college. He got into the trades and now has a gas-burner's license and a few others...all paid for by his employer. But, generally speaking (sometimes a dangerous thing to do), higher education leads to a higher income...one needs to leverage it properly for this to work. But you've pointed this out already. And this does not necessarily mean a higher education makes one more money than those who have other forms of training instead. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 02-25-2009 at 08:08 AM..

02-26-2009, 06:53 AM	#14 (permalink)
genuinegirly Eat your vegetables Super Moderator Location: Arabidopsis-ville	Fiscal responsibility as it relates to higher education: 1) You're more likely to find funding for a field that needs more specialists. 2) If a current student can't navigate the financial aid/scholarship/grant circuit, they will not develop necessary skills for navigating the bureaucracies that they will face later in life. 3) The College/University financial aid system is increasingly easy to navigate due to internet search programs and financial aid counselors. I didn't believe it would be easy when I started - I paid out of pocket my first couple of years of university. But then I realized that I couldn't find a work schedule that would permit me to attend my upper-division lab classes. So I broke down and went to the financial aid office. I coudn't believe how easy the system is. I felt stupid for paying for my education out of pocket previously. 4) There are fields that do not offer any funding aid. Leave these to the exceptionally wealthy. Part of living your life comfortably is accepting financial reality. If you spend $70,000/year for two years pursuing an MFA, then paint out of your garage for the rest of your life, you're probably not going to make up that "reasonable" educational debt. If you spend $30,000/year pursuing your undergraduate in creative writing, then work as a freelance poet with no connections, you're probably not going to pay off that "reasonable" educational debt. If you spend $100,000 on an MBA program, then land a job as an auditor, you're probably not going to pay off that "reasonable" educational debt. If you spend $200,000 and several years of your life becoming a physician, only to enter a socialized healthcare system where you can't earn more than $60,000/year, you're probably not going to pay off that "reasonable" educational debt. Just because you study a certain field doesn't mean you're going to find a profitable job in that field. If you pay nothing for your edcuation in a field that needs workers and is willing to pay for their training, you're going to be more successful overall. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Fiscal responsibility isn't about using coupons. Coupons are designed by manufacturers to get you hooked on a product, not to save you money. It's better to avoid consumer culture and the coupons that come along with them. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Fiscal responsibility is about knowing when to save and when to spend. When there's more money coming in - save it. When there's less or no money coming in - try not to spend what you've saved. That's all there is to it. Don't over-spend. If you see a little extra cash coming in unexpectedly, don't increase your budget by adopting senseless expenses. If you can't see yourself affording your lifestyle with half of your income, you shouldn't be living that lifestyle. ------------------------------------------------------ I realize I have a different slant on finances than most people. You don't need to agree with any of my statements. Thank you for the stimulating conversation, none the less. __________________ "Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

02-26-2009, 07:41 AM	#18 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I agree. I think the question is how far out of the way do you go to "save" that money for the coupon. Since I don't clip coupons and won't sit and flip through the Sunday circular.. I only use discounts that make sense for me and it sounds like you do too. Which reminds me... i have to look at something at Frugality and if it's not there to add it... __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

02-27-2009, 07:21 AM	#20 (permalink)
genuinegirly Eat your vegetables Super Moderator Location: Arabidopsis-ville	Fascinating. I can see how making payments for your educational loans will allow you to build good credit. I suppose I'm too short-sighted. I can't see myself making enough money to throw an extra $300/month into anything other than housing or food. __________________ "Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

02-27-2009, 08:47 AM	#23 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	For the record, I'm just a few points from an 800+ credit rating (out of 900), meaning "excellent." I owe much of that to my student loan payments, yes. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 02-27-2009 at 08:50 AM..

02-27-2009, 08:56 AM	#25 (permalink)
Xerxys Junkie Location: My head.	Hmmmm. I think I have a skewed view but what if, after all the math, I told you, you would earn what you earn now monthly, plus 350 .... if you would pay me 300? I think even the smallest difference would make some sort of change in my life.. I will be back with solidly crunched numbers.