snowy

You got it, cadre.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

genuinegirly

This one hits home. Thanks for including a poll!
I compare myself to other women a lot. I don't want to. But I do. I get mad at myself internally when I do. I know that all women are different physiologically and I shoudln't compare.

When it's just me, I'd like to be thinner, more athletic. I compare myself to others. In dance classes, I think "I'm fat!" but in other social environments I sit back and I think "Eh, I'm not doing too bad." I need to stop this stupid comparing and just start working out the way that I want to, get the body that I want, that will keep me healthy for the decades to come. Running 5k's when I'm 70 is one of my long-term goals but I can't even run 2 miles (not on a treadmill, those make it easy) comfortably.

One thing that holds me back from stopping clothing comparisons is the American way of numbering women's clothing. Why we don't adopt the men's system of inch measurements is beyond me. It's difficult to find clothes for a women-shaped body in my size. I have hips. Size 5, 7, 9 are too small / fit wrong. Size 4 & 6 are sometimes too small, but for some reason 8 is always much too big. I shop in Petites for my shirts, but for pants I have no luck. 32D bras are impossible to find at a decent price. I oftentimes catch myself wishing that I had the same figure as I did when I was 12, so I could find clothes.

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Supple Cow

Those things I've highlighted don't make sluts... they make people. The fact that you included the part about pictures of engaging in sexual activity on the internet for strangers belies your own opinion on the subject. That is where you draw the line for the word "slut". What you said implies that everybody who posts pictures in the Exhibition forum, or who writes about personal fantasies in the relative anonymity of the TFP, is a slut. But I wonder, do you apply this standard to the men of TFP who do the same? This is what Sweetpea's thread is about, so this is something I would like to pursue further if you'll humor me. What motivates your beliefs about this?

Sidenote: This is why I said what I did about the Exhibition forum in the 'What Happened to the TFP?' thread, and a whole lot of people got up in arms about why the forum exists. I want to thank mixedmedia for being the first person to admit (even in an indirect way) that there is an implicit assumption about the women who post in the EX forum, and that it isn't a safe place for our bodies as art.

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

mixedmedia

Well, my point was not to say that women who post pictures of themselves nude or talk about their fantasies here at TFP were sluts. Not in the least. My point in bringing it up at all was to illuminate the fact that girls on the street who are dressed "in a certain way" were referred to as dressing "slutty" and as further implied, were actual sluts in their behavior, as well.

So my question is...if a girl on the street wearing certain clothing can be deemed a "slut" what does that make a woman on TFP who posts pictures of herself wearing nothing at all? I have never posted a picture of myself nude here, but I have certainly indulged in talk about fantasies and my own sexual life and it's a little discomfitting to think that some people might be judging my character because of it. That was what spurred my remarks.

I prefer not to use the word slut in a pejorative way at all. Most especially among women, and most specifically amongst ourselves here at TFP where we are encouraged to open ourselves up sexually without fear of judgement.

I'm sort of new here and your concerns about the Exhibition forum are new to me. I'd be happy to discuss it with you, though.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Supple Cow

First off, I would just like to say that as far as experiences go I can probably say that I am in the same boat with you and abaya. Only, I tend to agree with abaya's interpretation of it more than yours, and here's why. I happen to believe that the reason it is horrible to be a slut (or loose or easy or liberal or whatever you want to call it) is because that behavior comes stems from insufficient self-respect. (I don't say 'lack' here because I know that I had plenty of self-respect in other areas of my life, and it was a long hard road to finding out and admitting to myself that I still didn't have enough of the right kind of self respect.) Here is my philosophy:

When you make mistakes (as you call them) or poor decisions (as I call them) like that, it doesn't help you any to continue to be ashamed of them for the rest of your life and beat yourself up over it. I think we can probably agree on this part. But I think you are taking not beating yourself up over it too far when you take something you're not proud of and try to spin it as something you are. I don't think I should be proud of some of the things I've done, and from what I've heard from you (and abaya, to be fair), I don't think that you should be proud of those things either. (I'll emphasize here that this is my own personal opinion, and that I am trying to discuss ideas and not engage in personal attacks.)

Nobody said they were judging your character here because of your having expressed your fantasies on the TFP. I was only taking your words and putting them back to you in the the way they came off to me. From what you say now, I see that you are drawing a comparison where one ought not be drawn. The reason we can have certain judgements in the real world and not here on the TFP is because this is the internet. The real world and the internet are completely different contexts. Would you wear the same thing you wear out on a date if you were at the office? Would you wear a bathing suit to the post office? A bathing suit is appropriate at the beach, right, so why not at the post office?

I disagree that the TFP is about opening ourselves up without fear of judgement. It is also about evolution, and I think an important qualifier to your statement is the word "undue". If we outlaw judgment, then we kill growth. Undue or unfair judgment is another story. Also, I don't think the primary focus is for opening ourselves sexually, and if it seems that way, it's probably just because most people have a lot more room for opening up in that arena than they do in others.

I'll try and find a more appropriate way to discuss the exhibition forum - I don't want to further threadjack, but that is sort of a hot topic with me.

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

mixedmedia

I'm not trying to spin it as something that I'm proud of. I'm exhibiting a sense of humor about it. I accept what I have done in the past and also accept that all of my experiences, good, bad, poor choices or not, are directly responsible for the woman I am today. I am not proud of everything I've done, but I am not ashamed of them, either. I didn't hurt anyone or act out of malice, deceit or any other malintention. There are far worse things a person can do to garner shame and judgment than sleep around, after all. I like to keep things in perspective. And furthermore, I refuse to take on the lifelong self-stigmatization of being a "victim" of what some might consider my "slutty" behavior. I'm not saying that you were implying any of those things...just free-thinking. But I sense a little of that in some posts on this thread.

I reclaim the word slut because within the confines of a relationship I am perfectly content to act like one. I enjoy it. It's very freeing and pleasant for me. It seems okay because it is okay - for me. Perhaps not for you. Then don't reclaim it for yourself. Personally, I have just as much problem with the pejorative use of bitch as I do slut.

I disagree with this. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect that someone who would say a girl looks slutty walking down the street with her thong exposed in the back would say the same about a woman posting pictures of herself nude on the internet. And to be clear, I DO NOT THINK THESE THINGS ABOUT EITHER OF THEM. Just trying to make a point.



Well, I didn't use the word "undue" in that quote, but perhaps I did elsewhere. I am not looking to outlaw judgment. I'm just saying that maybe in an environment such as this one it might be polite not to bandy the word slut around in a pejorative way. But it's not like I intend to go on a crusade about it. It was a thought I had and I expressed it.

And I did not say that opening ourselves sexually was the primary focus of TFP. But it is obviously one of them.


I gather as much.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Supple Cow

Whoops. I meant to delete that whole section you quoted to which this is the reply. I almost wanted to say that and then realized that the distinction I was trying to make between those two words was not there.

I apologize for missing the joke. I guess I am taking everything in this thread somberly because the OP, for me, is a very serious issue and one that I am very tired of dealing with. In fact, I find it very difficult to talk about it at all, and it's not for lack of opinion or feeling on the subject. I was just trying to ease myself into the discussion by engaging others about their own ideas before I found myself unintentionally unleashing a lot of misdirected anger.

I'm glad to read your response to this, mostly because I agree and respect what you have to say about it, I would be glad even if you had exactly the opposite to say. My intent was only to spur further discussion by prodding you for a fuller explanation of your reasoning. I hope it wasn't too harsh or uninviting.

You use the word "expect" and I am trying to understand why it is reasonable to make this assumption. I think it is certainly possible that many people think these two things go together, just as there are people (like me) who see them as two very different things. If I see a woman behaving a certain way in the street, I feel that it is justified to silently judge her at the same time as not judging people who are posting nude art photographs on the internet. That is not hypocrisy because they are different things to me.

Maybe you don't make this distinction because you are including the non-art exhibition posts (the women "engaged in sexual activity on the internet for strangers"). Or does that make a difference to you? Of course, even people engaging in sexual activity on the internet doesn't offend my sensibilities if the intention is still art or some form of personal liberation. My personal line of judgment is crossed when the intention is to attract a certain kind of attention that is driven by an unhealthy need for validation (which doesn't ever seem to be fulfilled). In real life, I judge people based on this all the time - I just don't rudely throw it in their faces or make life-changing decisions based on it. I'm sure my snap judgements turn out to be wrong a lot. But some of my snap judgments are fed evidence that supports them, and those turn into more permanent opinions I hold about those people.

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

mixedmedia

What about the OP do you find personally distressing? 'Cause we've strayed quite a ways from the original subject of this thread. Of course, in a broader sense, one could certainly draw some parallels. In that there are various reasons why women judge each other on appearance.


Don't sweat it. You certainly haven't offended me. In fact, I've kind of enjoyed our little exchange. Thoughtful conversation is always welcome here, as is prodding me to make myself more clear, lol.


I don't mean to use the word "expect" to mean that we should expect everyone to cast these judgments about women at TFP, just that it should not be unexpected to find that there are people who do. Personally, I am a very accepting person on these issues - the posting of pictures for any reason and the exposure of one's sexual nature and thoughts through words - I don't have a problem with any of it. That's not to say that I don't cast judgments on people for other things, I have to say that I do, but if someone is engaging in activities or ideas that are of no harm to nor infringing upon the rights of anyone else, then I tend to be very lenient in my assessments of them. Especially if I don't know them.

I understand. Yes there are women out there with unhealthy needs for validation, often through their sexuality and attraction of the opposite sex. While most women exhibit some of these tendencies - after all, we are biologically predisposed to them to some extent - some take them to an extreme. But where we might part ways is in our assessments of their character. I don't judge them harshly for being that way. It doesn't mean they are a less kind or thoughtful person. It doesn't mean they are a thief or a liar or a disloyal or selfish person. They are being stigmatized by a society that sees them as less than good women simply because they are promiscuous - for whatever reason there is behind their promiscuity.

Now whenever I get to talking like this, the little voice in my head says: "you sound like a know-it-all who thinks she reacts perfectly to every situation." And I just want to say, no, that's not true. I do rush to judgment on my own personal irks and whims. Like whenever I see a guy wearing a pair of shorts with socks and sandals on I think to myself, what the fuck is that guy thinking? No, no, just kidding, I'm not saying that's the same thing. But I do cast knee-jerk assumptions more often than I'd like, especially when it comes to religious and political persuasions.

I don't know, somebody stop me, I'm just going on and on and on....shut me up.

I just want people to be nicer to each other. That's my main purview. The objective I have been meandering my way toward for the last 41 years. By all means, I am not perfect, but I'm trying.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

la petite moi

On the original topic, I, too, despise when people comment on my body. For example, when I turn down cake at a office party, they all make a huge deal of it, saying things like: Oh, I suppose thats why she's so thin! As if being thin suddenly makes me a better person, or shows that I have such great willpower and self-control.

No, fuckers, I'm thin because I have anorexia with bulimic tendencies. I have no self control because I puke up my food and define my worth on whether I've eaten or not. I've had a crappy existance with food since I was a little girl. I wish I could be fat and happy and not worry about eating a little slice of cake.

I wish women could just stop judging each other based on body image. Our self-worth should be based on how much we've lived up to our own standards, not someone else's.