So who is gonna step up to the pepsi challenge?? I would, but I'm in a relationship and I don't think the woman will approve (I don't see why ).:D

i have to intercede on this one.. all of those things might get my phone number but HONESTY will get you laid !!
Case and poitn this guy came up to me and asked if i was seeing anyone i of course said no .. he didnt lay it on thick or anyhting he was himself( drunk Of course) and after like two hourse of talking( i do mean talking folks not laying on some thick lame game!) he asked me if i wanted to fuck of course i said buy me dinner first but he still got laid like three dates later!!
P.s. I'm not a slut just know what i want when i want it !!

Hi Plan9 & rest,

Here's an update. I met up with the chick I like (Nina) at a mutual friend's halloween party last night. Things started out with her giving PLENTY of hints (she wore a "fcuk safely" shirt, told me it was to encourage people to use condoms, she kept mentioning sex, she gave me a really close frontal hug (rubbin her tits up against me) when she first got there, wanted me to sit right next to her on a very small chair, wanted to look through photos while pressing up against me, etc. However, in recollection, I made one CRITICAL mistake. Without knowing it, I had gotten one-itess. Sure, I was flirting with girls everywhere earlier in the night, but once she arrived at the party, i started sweating, I became nervous, my thoughts escaped me, I couldn't even think of ways to portray myself as busy when she asked what I had done earlier in the day. In other words, I could have had her that night, but I had anticipated things so much that I lost control of the situation. She ended up leaving early, didn't even say goodbye. However, not all is a lost. It's amazing how well I did with everybody else at the party, just by being confident, knowing what to say, etc. I had no strong attachment to these people, so I didn't fear their rejection. I ended up staying at the party flirting with two Japanese chicks till the very end; both of whom I'm going to go see Matrix Revolutions with this Wednesday :)

So, my conclusion, the one-itess tip is more than just getting people to "be players" or rack up lots of chicks. You can find somebody special without getting one-itess. The point is, by keeping yourself from becoming so emotionally attached to one person before you've hooked the person, you put unnecessary pressure on yourself to perform and end up looking like shit.

Plan9 & All, (prepare for a long post!)

Class is in session baby! I have just read this entire thread and am very excited about what I have read. I have recently started to improve on myself physically and now want to move onto the mental game. I ask for you to please continue this thread- this stuff is gold. I have read what you have written about confidence and simply approaching women and would like to start PUA tactics! I am a decent looking guy- I just don't have the confidence that I should because I have been 'out of the game'. I'm going to shuttup about how I am and put forth a few examples and perhaps everyone that has read this thread can dissect and comment.

Situation #1: The Bank Chick

About a week ago I started going to the bank to take out cash at the drive-thru because I lost my checks and my bank card. One this glorious day I filled out my bank slip like I usually do, put my stuff in the lil box and look up at the teller to see a very attractive woman beaming a huge smile say "Hi" in what I took as a 'more than friendly' tone. I thought she just might be really friendly or had just gotten laid for lunch or something- but to my great surprise she starts giggling to her co-workers and basically pointing at me sitting there talking to my friend on my cell phone at the drive-thru. I tried to play it cool and I started telling my friend on the phone that the hottie at the drive-thru was calling me out. I guess she was listening because she just kept looking up from what she was doing and smiling the whole time I was sitting there.

(what goes through my head)
Ok, so in my mind I don't think that you can pick up chicks at their jobs. I have heard that it is a very bad idea because not only can it get them in trouble but that many guy's hit on them /day at places like this. Plus I haven't asked a girl out in a loooong time.
(end thoughts back to the drive-thru)

Ok so she does her business with my money and then very unprofessionally leans up with her hands on the counter as if to poke out her boobies and asks "Anything else". I don't remember exactly what I said in my state of panic but I believe it was something like "that'll do for now" or something not too idiotic because she was smiling when I drove off. I gave her a smile and drove away as ALL of the hot chicks at the window smiled at me as I drove by. SCORE!

I felt pretty good leaving the bank but at the same time I felt like a cracker because I didn't get her number right there and then. Interested in her I returned to the bank the very next day, this is where I fack up the first time.

I pull up to the VERRRRY front lane where I hope to get a better look at this Bank Chick who I think digs me. Lo and behold she is RIGHT FRIGGIN THERE. So I ask her- "Are you the one who helped me yesterday who wore the pink shirt" She says, "Yes, that was me" and smiles really big. I say "You know I spent all my money yesterday just so I could come back here and see that smile" OWNAGE! She dug that and went "Awww". After this I got really embarassed over what I have done. I don't know why but instead of making chit-chat to get more comfortable with talking to her I just kind of sat there and smiled like an idiot. I looked confused about what to do- and she noticed it. This is where the major fack up comes. After doing so well thus far, I write my number down on a peice of paper after she tells me bye again (I think I should have just drove off this time and left her wondering in mystery for awhile)- and I tell her that it's cool to call me. WANKER! Yuh- I think that was stuipd, she hasn't called me and I'm not surprised.

This confuses me because I have been back to the bank 2 other times (I spend alot of cash heh), and the next time I didnt even pay attention to her and I guess she thought I was pissed so she wrote me a note with the bank stuff I got back "Here is some Sugar to cheer you up" it was signed: "the drive-thru girls". On my next visit she sent me a note "Hi hottie, love your smile". I know she has my number, why doesn't she call? I don't think I am going to go back to this bank for awhile to ensure at least that she doesn't think I am stalking her at her job- moreover, until I hear what all you pplz think abouts this. Please let me know. Do you think that she is playing a game with me, do you think she is too shy- what should i do!?


Take into account I have read straight through this thread and AM going to go back and takes notes and feel like I can improve my game alot by what I have already read but I am hungry as a mofo to hear what you peeps- especially plan9 has to say. Keep it postin!

I've got more where that comes from if examples are good. I've gotten a chance at 3 girls this week after I died my hair at a very expensive place and started wearing perry ellis to compliment my efforts at working out fairly hard. I have not gone through with either 3 for reasons I myself don't even understand even though I am right there.

Neways- peace and I will check back.

Well I don't think she'd call you a hottie if she didn't like you (I don't and nobody I knows does). Take her up on this and ask her out. Maybe lunch or something. Not the movies though, you want to be able to talk to her and vice versa.

thanks Plan9, great stuff.

I've always been the fearful type, but I've finally started to notice how *fun* this game can be when played succesfully. ;)

no, it won't.

Wow what a great read! I'm like one of the ugliest guys ever but I don't ever talk to people which keeps me mysterious and stuff. Basically don't be a total outgoing jock type but learn to be quiet and not spit everything about yourself out :P (I guess)

Plan9, I love you, I can't stop laughing at lesson #4.

I make it a habit not to post my picture on the internet. However, if you are ever in the Orange County area and want to watch how it works first hand (and see me as well), then you are more then welcome :). I have some nice pics of my seksi body, but I have learned posting pictures showing your face is risky... especially being that I will be putting a huge stamp on my head that warns women about me if they happen to recognize my pic :p


edit: bah, if you are just curious, here is a pic that I just took that will maintain a shred of anonymity
http://users.adelphia.net/~onethirty...ges/IMG_09.jpg

astyles, I read this line and wanted to hug you: Funny, yet agressive! Take note people, he played that perfect. The bad thing is that you put the ball in her court by giving her your number (if she asked, that is a different story). NEVER do that. Like I explained in an earlier lesson, when first meeting a girl sometimes they wont call EVEN if they are interested. Don't ask me... I don't get it myself.

before I finish and tell you what to say or do... I need to know a few things about this girl. What is she on the scale? I need to know this to decide on the best way to get her to hang out with you.

Remember the #1 rule!!... You must be able to categorize your prey, and then relate to her on some level.

Tip for the day:

Now why do most guys fail when they approach girls? Because:

A. They used canned pick-up-lines
B. They compliment the hell out of her (what every other guy does)
C. They show no confidence
D. They don't control the conversation. The conversation is out of their control, is boring, and there are awkward silences.
E. The guy makes it obvious that all he wants to do is get in her pants.
F. Guy asks yes or no questions, girl responds, guy has nothing to talk about. Alert goes off, he quickly asks her for her number, gets shot down.

Thats all for tonight. I am extremely fukin tired (as you can prolly tell from my pic heh)

Plan9, I'm digging this thread, lots of good advice. I'm eager to try it out, but I need to know where the chicks are. Where is a good location for finding women my age (early 20's). The mall seems full of younger girls, and clubs aren't really my thing. Should I go to the library? Starbucks? Colleges I don't attend? Any suggestions would be useful.

I have one thing to say about this entire thread:

<font size=+3>No Kidding!</font>

I'm speaking as someone who's been in a blissful relationship of 13 years, married for 8. If you're interested in finding someone to love for the rest of your life, most of the advice in this thread is 180 degrees bass-ackward.

A few months back I met a guy and he gave me his number. I did not ask. He gave me his, I gave him mine. When he didn't call after 5 days, I called. I WAS interested. So I took the chance and call. Did he call back? Nope.

Guys, don't give out your number if you're not interested in the girl. Thats fucking rude and wrong.

And ratbastid, I agree.... This advice here will hardly get you a lasting relationship. Relationships aren't built on games. Will this advice make you into a "playa"? Maybe. But who want's that guy?

Play on boys...

And at least that way the relationship is completely above board....

Each party knows what the other is there for with a minimum of BS.

Veritas en Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

Although I'd be more than happy to find one girl to stay with, I'm still reading this and finding it interesting.

even though I'm not a player and don't really want to be, this is how the game is played and I appreciate the attention and effort plan9 is putting into this thread.

for the ladies... this 'pimpin' may not work on you but that doesn't mean it doesn't work :\

I understand and respect how you choose to live your life. I too have had some wonderful long term (over 5 year) relationships myself, however, you must understand that some people aren't looking for marriage. And those people shouldn't be concerned with this thread. Congrats to your 13 year marriage btw, they are rare these days.

And let me ONCE AGAIN remind you of how whipped you got over the guy who didn't call you ;)

Guess you sort of are documented proof on how these methods get the girls ;)


links to your posts in case you forgot:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=26225
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...y+wont+he+call

The answer is: everywhere!!

You have opportunities to meet women every place you go, the thing is that you have never had the tools or knowledge that will make you aware of this and enable you to actually get them. Hopefully your eyes are a little more open to this now and you will not miss all of the countless opportunities that walk past you (litterally) every day. Keep practicing smiley_bob ;)

Everybody has their droughts, but on the bright side you are ready for when it starts to pour ;)

Couldn't have said it better myself.

This post has been most enlightening.

I remember my own threads :p

And how is that proof on how guys get girls? How did he get me?

Oh.. I get it.. He didn't want me, he was just blowing me off!

Gee, thanks for showing me the light! :rolleyes:


Yes, some of your tips annoy me. I have every right to convey that. And I'm sure you think that I'm just a troll who is incapable of getting any man. And you're entitled to that opinion. So lets just agree to disagree, okay?

I have no doubt that everything you've posted works. It just honestly makes me a bit sad that we're all reduced to these games.

I think there's a few things people need to keep in mind in this thread. With a topic like "Getting girls 101", I think it's very clear that this is not a tutorial on how to have a successfull long term relationship. Anyone interested in "Getting girls 101" in any way short of wondering what is said in a thread such as this, is probably not looking for a long term relationship at this point in their life.

The other thing is that the women on TFP tend to be above average in education, openess and creativity. In other words, I think they are the exception, not the rule (this is in no way a bad thing). What this means is that these 'games' most surely won't work on women from this board, and probably actualy seem absurd. HOWEVER. They most definately do work on your average club going girl.

Plan9, I totaly support the idea's you've stated in this thread :)

Lesson: The Art of Approaching Women PART 1: (prepare for a long lesson)

Approaching women in itself is easy, it’s getting the courage to do it that seems to hold people back. A guy sees a girl he wants to approach, makes eye contact, and then, instead of approaching, does one of two things:

1. Thinks it over
They sit there and analyze all the possible outcomes. What if she doesn’t fall madly in love with them? What if she is having a bad day? What if she’s a lesbian? The girl notices the guy, but he is sitting there thinking it over (wasting time). If he eventually does approach, the girl thinks of him as a wuss because he took to long. This guy obviously has 0 confidence.

2. Sits there trying to come up with a witty line
I’ve been there. My entire life I’ve seen girls I would have loved to get them, looked at them, THOUGHT about approaching, but instead, sat there trying to come up with a witty line. This causes a few problems. A) You’re wasting time. If you ever do approach, you look like a guy with no confidence and B). You won’t think of a witty line. And if you somehow do, you have too many odds against you because if the girl isn’t gone, then she realizes you have to little confidence to see something you want and go get it.

To those of you who are afraid of rejection, here are some comforting points

1. Every PUA has been rejected. It happens. It’s like wanting to learn the guitar, but then holding back because you might play the wrong chord on accident or you might drop your pick.
2. Rejection is a learning experience. It helps fine-tune your game so your chances of getting rejected drop as you go on
3. Girls aren’t rejecting you because of your looks (unless you’re just hideous), you just did something wrong or were a little nervous and they picked up on it. That’s why the more you approach; the less you’ll actually get rejected. You’ll improve on these things.
4. Girls are usually pretty nice when you approach, as long as you avoid saying something vulgar or just walking up and saying, “I want to fuck you.” The worst rejection you may ever get is, “I have a boyfriend” or, “Why don’t you give me your number.” What is so scary about that? (there are good responses to both by the way)

Now, here is the big rumor that people seem to believe when they either consider approaching girls or when they start doing it. They think that they need some kind of pick-up line or impressive opener to be successful. That’s just not true. In all honesty, it doesn’t matter what you say to a girl when you approach; you just have to say something…ANYTHING. You can pick-up girls no problem by just walking up and saying, “Hi” with a smile. The problem now is following this up with conversation (which I’ll get into later).

Now, imagine being at the mall and there are all sorts of HB’s there. If you’ve ever really paid attention, how many guys have you actually seen approaching a girl? I don’t think I’ve ever actually witnessed it. If you’re scared of people noticing you trying to do a pickup, I don’t think you should have a problem. Nobody would even pick-up on it. But, not only that, most guys DON’T approach girls. They go to the mall with a group of friends and just walk around trying to look cool. They look at girls, they whisper to their friends, then, they go home thinking about how hot that girl was.

Another interesting point: YOU reject girls ALL THE TIME, you just don’t know it. How many girls have you ever seen look at you and smile and you just kept walking? That’s a rejection bro. If you don’t approach a girl who is begging you to, you’re rejecting her. You probably never even picked up on the signals (I know I used to never even notice them, and now they’re so easy to spot), but you reject them. And think of how bad girls have it that they have to go home wondering if they’re ugly because they didn’t get approached. Lets say you’re walking around the mall and you notice this ugly girl is looking at you. You make eye contact (accidentally) then quickly look away. Why…because you’re not interested. Now if this were a HB, you would’ve kept eye contact and most likely smiled. Smiling is a clear “come talk to me” indicator for cold approaches. All us guys go initially for looks on a girl; lucky for any of you who aren’t so good-looking that girls go for personality


PART 2:

Ok, now that you have some confidence and see that this is really easy, lets get into some different ways of approaching.

Approaching can be broken into the following steps:

1. Spotting out the target. You have 3 seconds to approach, so make sure you notice all the details in those 3 seconds. Maybe something interesting she’s wearing if you want to do one of those approaches.
2. Approaching the target and getting her attention. This is called an opener. Avoid canned pick-up lines.
3. You got some kind of response from the target. You scan for body language, facial expressions, eye contact, and anything else to get an overall sense of interest level (depending on your approach there may not be any interest level yet. Don’t give up)
4. Your response to her response.
5. Small talk
6. Close

Hopefully that seems logical to you. Now, how do you actually approach a girl? Get her attention, then once you do, talk about ANYTHING that’s not boring. Good topics would be something going on at that moment around you, something you noticed about her (NOT LOOKS), or anything any regular guy wouldn’t talk about.

I like the way you describe women and men. :)

What bermuDa said.

Personally, I'd like to think I'm the initiate and that I'm relatively game-free. If I'm looking to get laid, I don't wait for the guy to play the game, I just go knock on a friend's door. To the point and drama free. If I want a guy who's trying to play games with me, I tell him in one way or another to cut the crap, or I just cut him out of my life because games are petty shit.
Who knows, the process of how I choose which friend might be influenced by "the game," or whatever, but I tend to avoid people who play games. My one and only experience with a game-player is the worst experience of my entire dating/relationship career, so I have a natural tendency to avoid it now.

wow, I just read through this entire thread, and Plan9, i'm pretty excited about these techniques. I'll definitely report back to you with whatever responses I get, and it seemed so simple but I never realized it...."practice makes perfect"

peace

im a total wuzz... :)
i will try to change things..
thanks plan9

Don't play games. Girls are people too, you can meet them just as easily as you would a new friend. Have true self confidence (not something that you get out of a bottle for $26 at Wal*Mart) and be yourself. If things work out great, if not -- move on to the next girl you're attracted to. . .the last time I checked there were nearly 7 billion people on the planet.

and this coming from a guy. . .

Heh, mind sharing your success rate with this technique ? So far, every girl I've treated like a human being, with respect & honesty etc, has turned around and screwed me around.

There's a bit of cross logic as far as all this is concerned.

Excelent guide, I copy pasted it and will follow it asmuch as I can. Thanks!

kamikazee method above sounded very interesting, haven't heard of it put like that before

I have been neglecting this thread for a while, but I have not forgotten about it :). You would be proud of your professor tonight... just landed one of the best looking girls I have seen tonight and to top it off I did it WHILE she was out on a date with some sappy chump who was kissing her ass. Needless to say, I am going to hang out with her next weekend while he sits home wondering why she isnt returning his calls. :lol:

That being said, it is time for a new lesson ;)

Lesson #11-The Power of Teasing

In the past I use to hate when I was alone with a girl and she totally knew I wanted her. Why? Because then she had all the power and dictated if we kissed, when we kissed, how long we kissed etc. However after a lot of experience, I've learned a lot about how to take control of the physical part of girls.

Ok let me paint an image in your head. Your hanging out with a HB that you want to fuk real bad. You've kept her interest level high the whole night by being C/F and not giving her straight answers. You two finally get to be alone and you want to kiss her really bad, but you don't want to get rejected. Here's where the "Kiss Test." comes in, let me explain it.


Like I said earlier your alone with a girl and want to make the move. Well here's the ground work you must do before you go in for the kiss.

-Initiate kino (touch her thigh, and rub it, or stroke her hair, touch her waist etc) The key is to touch her in a sensual way.

Let's say your stroking her hair, after a few moments, stop. Then make perfect EC and stare at her lips, then back at her eyes. After this lean in like your going to kiss her but pretend that there's some lint in her hair that your grabbing out. Now when you lean in, if she stays put, then your golden she's dying for you to kiss her. However, if she moves away abruptly as you pull in then she just isn't comfortable enough with you yet. If that does happen to you, don't take it as a sign that she doesn't want you. Just take it as a clue that you need to lay down more ground work and create more rapport before she's read to be kissed.

Ok so say your past the initial kiss and you guys are making out. You want to take it to 3rd base and possibly hit a HR. How can you do that? Pretty easy actually. While your making out with her, she'll most likely have her eyes closed. So in the middle of it, just stop, flat out STOP!! Pull back and wait until she opens her eyes. She'll look at you and you look right back. Then lean in as if your going to kiss her again, but instead brush your cheek against her's at the last second. This will drive her absolutely nutz. Why? Because you've already got her pretty hot if you know how to kiss and she wasn't ready to stop. Then pull in again but just give her a soft slow kiss. Then build it up to a little bit more, until you guys are making out again. Make sure your making use of your hands, but caressing her body during the kissing. Then after another few minutes, just stop again and tell her your ready to leave. If she doesn't try to entice you to stay by taking your physical activity a little bit further that night, then TRUST ME, then next time you see her she'll want to do something special for you.

Getting good at being physical with a girl is much like your transition from an AFC to a PUA. A PUA dictates the conversation, is strong and assertive. He says when shit is going to happen and when shit is going to stop. Don't change this formula when your hooking up. If you do this correctly, you'll have A LOT of fun.

Keep pimpin
-p9

fucking oath... i am sooo putting this shit into practice... *kisses your arse* thanks..

It can, with the right people.

I think the only thing you need is confidence...with confidence comes the rest....

After reading this thread, I'd just like to thank the guys out there who are trying this for eliminating so much of my competition. Unless you're trying to pick up women who enjoy going home, fucking, then being kicked out without a guy ever asking her name, most of what has been said just won't work.

There are actually tons of girls out there like that (just as horny as us guys out there) without a steady supply of hot beef. What plan9 is saying in these posts isnt about lying or putting forth a false image of yourself really, its about making yourself realize your worthy enough to get a hot girl to pay some attention to you.

Yup, there are a ton of girls out there who are just looking for some casual sex. Nothing wrong with that at all. But these things are about lying and they are about putting forth a false image of yourself. Most men deep down are not like this. But most realize that to a certain extent you have to tweek yourself in order to get the girl. I think this is all about building confidence. If youre a confident man you can be yourself and be able to talk to any girl you want. Now, can you get any girl you want? Thats another story.

I can't speak for Plan9. We've butted heads on this issue, we both have different thoughts on it. But I think these tricks are all about gaining confidence. If you get used to talking to random girls, and asking for numbers then you'll become more confident with your pimpin ways. I just see things from the woman's point of view. I don't want to be one of the girls who is just the stepping stone to some man gaining confidence. But it's up to me to weed out the guys who are real, and the guys who hope to some day be real.

Got a little long winded there, sorry....

This past Saturday I had a brief encounter with a guy who really needed to work on his game. He came up, introduced himself and we talked for a few minutes. Then mid sentance he turned around and started to talk to another girl. I was a little puzzled but I could care less. I went back to where my friends were standing. About 10 minutes later the guy came over to us, and pulled me over to the bar. Introduces me to his friends and offeres to buy me a drink. Which he never did actually... Then he asked what I was doing later that night (it was 4am) and I said going home. He then asked for my number, said we could hang out sometime. I gave it to him, then he said we should go back to his place and hang out there. I again told him that I was going home,that I had to drive friends home. Next he says "We should go to my place and have sex. Don't worry, it'll be the best of your life. Oh,and I've got condoms." I said thanks, but no thanks. He said "You'll regret it. It's really too bad that I just lost your number." Then turned his back to me. I just laughed and went back to my friends. It was the most bizarre conversation ever.

No, am I wrong in assuming that he had no skills? Or maybe they just didn't work on me...

An interesting thread.

I've to say, Averett, that sounded like the poorest pickup attempt ever...

There are a lot of jewels in this thread. The one thing i want to add though is the difference between being a real pymp and a sheep in wolfs clothing. If you go out and follow all of the tips plan9 listed you will have success with women, but more than likely if you havent had success with women before you'll get to the physical part and freeze up. Even if you can get past the foreplay and get down to the draws, you'll freeze up then because you'll start to doubt yourself at the last minute. If you really want to have success with women and even life there a few key tips from plan9 and others that you need to focus on.

1. Confidence - Confidence is what makes everything fall into place. When you are confident it changes the way you move, talk, etc and women and everyone else picks up on that. Eye contact tells a lot about a person. If you can make it and hold it strongly it shows the strength of your soul. If you lack confidence youll shuffle or stumble when you walk, your posture will be bad, your voice will crack etc. If you only act confident you will falter eventually.

2. Grooming - Keeping a neat appearance and maintaining good physical conditioning really aid your confidence. Get acquainted with a mirror. People who lack self confidence often only glance at a mirror and make minimal effort to appear clean. Become familiar with your face and body. Study it. Notice every hair that is out of place and craft your appearance.

3. Gift of Gab - Like was said before, pympin is a game of numbers and skill building. A hidden jewel of getting your rap together is older women. There are a lot of hot women in their 30s you can practice on. Having a young guy come and spit game to them will make them feel young again and attractive. They are easy targets and may even humor you even if you are not interested. This can be a useful confidence builder. And if you are lacking confidence in your sexual abilities, there is no greater teacher than an older women. Theyve done it all and seen it all and can teach it to you and show it to you.

4. CONFIDENCE - im repeating this because it is the most important. Putting on the clothes of confidence may get you a little ass, but living a new lifestyle of confidence will change your entire life. Get in the gym to have a healthy body and appearance. Learn self defense. Nothing makes you more confident than knowing that whatever happens you could kick some ass. Women pick up on that too.

It goes beyond the visual. The part of the brain that governs sexual attraction is the most primitive section. Deep down women are still looking for a cave man to protect them and provide for them. You can get far by giving off that impression. You will get farther by actually being that person. Furthermore, the strength of character and confidence you possess can be detected in pheromones. All of that info is processed by women and everyone else whether they know it consciously or not.


I want you to know that im not making this stuff up. In jr high and the first part of high school of a was skinny guy, picked on with no rap and bad acne. My sophomore year in high school a couple guys took me under their wing and taught me the same things Plan 9 and a few others are putting on this board. Aside from that they kept me in the gym, taught to me fight, and generally helped me to realize that my confidence was low. My junior year they left but by that time I was in shape, my confidence was higher and by the end of that year I had had more women that year then in my entire life. My senior year was even better. This is about more than pussy. This is about taking charge of your life.

Yo Plan9, that last post is quite possibly the most useful one yet.
I'm not all that great at picking up on when a chick's ready to mess about and stuff, so that's some good stuff <:

Great advice Plan9. I'm gonna put some of this into practice with a girl i'm chasing. I'll be sure to report back =)

Haha - you should have pointed him to this thread.

Yeah, or Alcoholics Anonymous.

one other thing to keep in mind is to always keep the place where you bring a gorl to cash in on clean. if it is your bedroom, make sure it isnt a mess, your sheets dont stink, and your bed is made. it will somewhat impress them especially the first time they are their. and they will enjoy themselves more while they are there and that will make them want to come back again.

Wow, very nice post :D Just had to say that ;)

Averett, the thing is... you are not the type of girl that can be easily "played" and you should be proud of it. Hopefully some of the things I have told you in this thread will keep you even sharper to look out for the guy who is just trying to get you in bed. You honestly seem like a good girl.. a "keeper" as I call it amongst my friends. Don't mistake our "butting heads" as if I dont like you... I actually think you are an alright girl ;). Anyhow, just replying...

PLEASE keep us updated. All of us men can learn from all of our successes and failures. Good luck :)

Just an update to my RL situations (in case anybody gives 2/3 of a turd), I made a boo-boo. This weekend I met a girl at a club, got her number and ended up getting invited to an afterhours party at her friends house. I showed up late and she was on her way out... I stayed and ended up meeting some girl (whos boyfriend was passed out on the couch) and got her number as well. The next day (tonight) I ran into a group of people (some of those who happened to be at this afterhours party) and met some girl, who was a 9 on my scale, and ended up hitting it off with her and getting her number. Afterwards I figured out that she was friends with both of the girls that I got their numbers the previous night. Ugh! Not sure what will happen, but it definately will prove to be interesting nonetheless :D

Anyhow, here is another lesson... or rant if you would...

Lately I noticed a lot of guys making excuses for not wanting sex, being celibate, or being intentional IWs ("intellectual whores"—it basically means an AFC who is being used). I gave several responses to try to convince them to change their ways, and in doing so I came to some realizations about why so many guys continue in their IW ways. Some of this stuff might sound like common sense to you guys, but I think it will help if I begin to clarify it and put it into written format.

(Cliff notes: This article expains why guys should follow their desires instead of denying them.)

These guys are afflicted with what I am calling "Fox/Grapes" Syndrome. I am of course alluding to the classic Aesop fable for children here: http://www.bartleby.com/17/1/31.html

Basically the fox fails to get the grapes, so he comforts himself by deciding that they were probably sour anyway.

A guy with fox/grapes syndrome is making a similar mistake by convincing himself that women or sex is sour, because he needs to deal with the fact that he is not getting any. He is finding a treatment for the problem, not a cure. I have been there. I have done that. It sucked. I hope I can spare other guys the pain. He simply needs to learn how to do what is necessary to get the grapes, instead of learning how to live in some form of denial.

Here is my thesis: any man (over 16 or 17, with normal sex drive) who is not doing his best to get women is hurting himself and probably in some kind of denial.

Now we will look at some manifestations of this problem.

When a guy realizes that he is not having the success he wants with women, and decides that he needs to change, he will probably be soon undergo some of the following, in some kind of combination or order.


I. Low self-esteem:
He decides his failures with women are his fault, and that there is something wrong with him, likes his looks, his personality, or whatever. This can lead the guy to try to improve his looks, or his connections, or his finances. He might even land a girl by accident. In the extreme, he might resort to suicide, rape or murder.

II. Misogyny:
He blames women for his failures with them and decides there is something wrong with them. Strangely enough, this attitude can make him slightly more attractive to women, so again, he might be able to attract a girl purely by accident.

III. Denial-Based Mindsets and Worldviews:
He must reconcile the fact that he is a good person, yet he can't get women. So he creates himself a skewed view of the world to maintain his self esteem. Examples—a nice guy self-image, religious/scientific/moral justifications, a victim mindset, or escapism. I'm sure there are more that I haven't listed. Of course, if a guy has religious/scientific/moral/political beliefs, he is not necessarily guilty of being like the fox with the grapes. Everyone's worldview is skewed in some way, including me in this article. What I mean here is that anyone who skews their worldview even more to justify not fulfilling their healthy desires is playing the fox.

Here is the kind of dialogue that might be playing in the guy's head. He is deluding himself, but he doesn't know any better. I think most guys will find this familiar:

"I am a good person. Yet I do not get women. If there is nothing wrong with me, and nothing wrong with them, so there must be some reason why I am not having the success I desire. I do not get women, so maybe there is some reason why I shouldn't get women, or I shouldn't want women...[now he thinks up some justifications like the ones I shall list]"

(Of course, this kind of self delusion is not limited to guys trying to get girls. Both men and women do it in many areas, such as making money i.e. "I am a hard working person. Yet I don't make much money. There must be some reason why I shouldn't have/want money..." My post is written about women, yet most of it applies to just about any deep desire.)

Being around attractive women is bittersweet when he knows that he will not be able to have sex with them. Every guy knows this intuitively. However, some guys get addicted to the sweet part of unfulfilled lust, and they learn to sooth the pain of the bitter part. So they create a belief system or self-image which allows them to sooth or deny the pain. At least his self esteem is not so badly damaged following this path. However, a warped worldview is hard to maintain. I tried. I failed. It sucked. Now I know better. Every time he sees a hot girl, or hears his friends talking about chicks, he must remind himself of his justifications for not getting women. Living in denial takes perpetual work.

Here is another manifestation of such skewed thinking: "I am not going to change my identity just to get girls." So he simply sits and watches the ladies pass him by. At some point, he needs to make a choice: is he willing to do what it takes? More on this in my conclusion.

The problem with denial-based systems is that they create dissonance between what the guy wants, and what he thinks he can or should get. Eventually, after years of denial, he might get so good at it that he has removed most of the pain. Repression becomes second nature for him and he doesn't realize it anymore. Many adult males have followed this path. I genuinely feel sorry for them.

i. The nice guy self image:
He becomes an IW. He might decide that he is destined to be a guy who is "not good with girls," and contents himself with IW mediocrity. However, he still might try to win the approval and affection of women, so he starts (or continues) doing things for them and supplicating. In this case, he becomes completely taken for granted and used. In the end, he continues doing things for girls to maintain his own self-image as a nice guy.

He still can't resist approaching women, yet the only way he can make himself comfortable doing it is by further repressing his sexual interest in them. He hides his sexuality, so women use him as a homework/money/advice machine and treat him like a doormat, instead of treating him as a man—or even as a person. Neither of them are to blame for this situation because neither knows better.

To maintain this self-image, he sometimes takes supplication to the extreme. He may believe that he is acting completely altruistically; yet there is still a part of him that wants to bang her. He may not be able to admit it, but either consciously or unconsciously he still wants her. Everything he does will still be influenced by his desire to sleep with her, even if he has consciously realized that this will never happen.

He believes that someday he will "get lucky" with women, or find "the one" (because he doesn't know how to attract them), and someday he might by pure accident. He will probably have one-itis. He will get used as an IW and maybe even pulled into a marriage. He will stay in this relationship not because of "love," but because he has low confidence in his own ability to find a new women in a decent amount of time. Often he will be the provider. He may depend on his IP for validation of himself. Our culture calls this "finding true love." Perhaps he might get sex a few times, but this is an accident, and probably just occurs for kids, or his wife feels it is her obligation.

Of course the ladder theory has a lot more detail on nice guys.

ii. Religious/scientific/moral/political justification:
Religion or morals might teach that having sex, or at least casual sex, is wrong, superficial, or only meant for procreation. He will embrace these beliefs because they excuse his mediocrity with women. He might even embrace celibacy.

However, there is one thing that will not change (unless he gets an operation or becomes a eunuch): sex feels good, and he physically wants to have it. Sure, he can rationalize all day that desire is only electrical signals interpreted by his brain, or sinful desires from the devil, but that will not make those very powerful signals/desires go away. He cannot rationalize away testosterone! He may be using rationalizations or theories to explain why he is not getting women, or why he shouldn't want women; yet again, this is a treatment, not a cure.

Note on religion: Just because a guy is religious, it doesn't mean he is afflicted with fox/grapes syndrome. Only if he is using religion to curtail what he wants or to hurt himself emotionally. Religion and the ladder theory can coexist; as long as his faith is his ally instead of holding him back.

iii. The Victim Mindset
Instead of (or in addition to) blaming himself, or women, he blames the world. He believes that "fate" or "the gods" or something is dooming him to a life with no sex or happiness. Extreme bitterness and chronic alcoholism might ensue (though it is not limiting to this mindset). This mentality can often accompany low self-esteem or celibacy.

iv. Escapism:
He convinces himself that he doesn't, or shouldn't want sex, that he doesn't have time for it, or that it is somehow not for him, or not important in the greater scheme of things. So he withdraws from it. Virtual celibacy is often the result. Escapism usually happens in combination with some of the mindsets I mentioned above.

He might try to convince himself that he can block out lust. We all know that you can't really block it out; there is no "off" switch. God knows sometimes I wish there was. You know, just a little switch in the back of your head that you can flick when a hot, but unatainable girl is near? He can deny lust, but doing that is painful and very hard to do forever. He might use masturbation or porn to temporarily escape his sexual tension (note: masturbation and porn do not necessarily mean a guy is guilty of escapism).

In the end, he withdraws into a monastery (in past history) or immerses himself in his job, or traditional "guy" pastimes such as sports, computer games, math, or other nerdery. I would hypothesize that a large amount of discoveries in hardcore sciences or technology were by men following this path. I heard somewhere that the increasing popularity of football correlates with the decreasing success of the modern man with the ladies. A lot of guys are in such a situation. Note: just by enjoying his job/pastimes does not necessarily make him guilty of this type of escapism. Only if he is doing it to escape from his desires. Nerditude and escapism can often go hand-in-hand, but not always.

However, sometimes in the process a man might attain enough money, power, or fame that he attracts women indirectly, again a strange accident. He can often get very attractive women as trophy wives, Unfortunately, it takes a lot of his life to get this kind of money and power. Our culture calls it "success." Sadly, he is spending thousands of dollars on materialism when he could do just as well with a new attitude (which costs $0). He also might end up spending some of his hard earned dough on prostitutes (though whoring is of course not limited just to this section).

Note: If a man is accumulating money and power for the purpose of getting women, he is not guilty of this type of escapism. His is actually following part of the ladder theory without knowing it.

IV. He becomes a player/outlaw biker/pick up artist:
He reads ladder theory, DJ or comparable material, talks to friends, or somehow figures out how to do what is necessary to get women. This is what guys mean when they say "be a man/grow some balls/be the alpha male/go **** ten other women." No longer are women a scourge on his self esteem, because he doesn't have to base his worldview on not getting them. There is a whole spectrum of guys who are successful with women. You could call some of them "players," but that term has a negative connotation so I will redefine it. Here are the two extremes of players:

a. The Outlaw Biker: Also known as the "jerk," or the "asshole." His strategy is "**** and dump, rinse and repeat." He has naturally attracted women since the teenage years with his attitude and pure ego. He doesn't give a flying **** about them or about anyone else, and so they make a beeline for him. He often doesn't treat women very well, and gives other guys a bad name.

Historically, a much larger percent of the population was this type of outlaw biker. For instance, Vikings pillage town, and rape all women. Or drunken knights that manhandled the ladies. Or outdated beliefs that women were only good for procreation. However, throughout the centuries, chivalry, feminism, and women's rights have made outlaw biker behavior less extreme (i.e. "political correctness"). This is a good thing in my opinion, but the guys who weren't outlaw bikers got caught in the cross fire.

Society indoctrinates men at birth to not be outlaw bikers (counter force = pop culture i.e. MTV). That is why nowadays there are so many IWs etc...However, what our culture, political correctness, and feminaziism don't realize is this: as long as some guys can be wilder, more novel, more disinterested, and better looking than others, there will always be outlaw bikers. It doesn't matter how pussified men get, as long as the are all equally pussified, there will always be outlaw bikers. It doesn't matter what the rules are, as long as they can be broken, there will always be outlaw bikers.

Take a bunch of extremely polite and posh British gentlemen from the 1800s ... Put them on a desert island with chick. She will make a beeline for whichever one of them is closest to OBness. You could call this a fact.

A famous punk rocker pothead (the outlaw biker of the present) has basically the same attitude as a Viking chief (the outlaw biker of the past). The only difference is that Mr. Viking pillages towns and rapes women at swordpoint while the punk rocker simply has a few body piercings and plays bad music.

Advantages: OBs get sex naturally, often from day one.

Disadvantages: They make the world hell for women and other guys. They might end up in jail. They rarely can teach other guys to be more successful with women because they do it naturally themselves.

b. The Pick-up Artist (PUA) : You could also call him the "serial charmer." He understands the art and science of attracting women. He might use any of a myriad of techniques to seduce women. He is often a recovering IW or nice guy who has consciously improved his inner game (self-esteem, confidence, attitude, etc...) and outer game (techniques and approaches). Eventually he gains control or his own mental and sexual state, and the state of women he seduces. He might change so much that he appears, or even merges with the outlaw bikers. I predict that more and more guys will be following this path in the future as the information becomes more popular. We are not talking just the DJ stuff here.

This is the path I, and alot of people on this forum are on. I have tried most of the denial-based paths and they just don't work.

Advantages: The PUA's scientific approach can lead him to have much more sex than OBs (of similar wealth/power) because he can learn from his mistakes. He can often get lots of sex on a clean conscience (whereas extreme OBs don't have much of a conscience).

Disadvantages: You can't start out a PUA. It can take him alot of rejection, practice, and studying for him to get success. It ain't easy. All an OB has to do is be himself.

In context: Most players fall somewhere in between these two poles. For example, there are outlaw bikers with a conscience that treat women well (though this seems to be less than 5% of OBs). There are also PUAs that teach themselves to not give a flying **** about women. If you want, you could say that OBs are controlled by their testosterone while PUAs control their testosterone.

Our culture sees only one type of player: the OB. That is why players in generally get a bad name.
__________________________________________________
___________

Conclusion: Seeing the Need to Change
You could say that modern men are somewhere in between these four extremes: Outlaw Biker (OB), Pick-up artist (PUA), Nice Guy (NG), and Nerd Escapist (NE).

Each guy starts out at a different point depending on his upbringing, culture, and genetic makeup. Throughout his life, he will hopefully move up to a level of sex that satisfies him. For guys closer to OBness, getting drunk, watching Fight Club or MTV or James Bond, listening to enough Blink182/Korn/Heavy metal, or getting told to "be himself" or "be a man" might be enough to get him laid a few times in his youth. For nicer or nerdier guys, it will take some healthy smacks on the head from the real world, exposure to LT, or an article like this one. For guys who want to **** the really good looking women with the best personalities, it takes either a badass OB attitude, or fastseduction, or both.

"Being Yourself"
This is one of the most common pieces of advice that our society gives. For some guys, it will help them, by moving them closer to OB. For others, it will hold them back, by making them resist change. They develop the attitudes "I am not going to change to get girls," or "if a girl doesn't like me the way I am, I don't want her."

Here is the way I look at it: having success with women is not so much about "changing yourself," it is also about bringing out what is already there. Some guys look at the process as a metamorphosis into something new. Others look at it as a journey of self-discovery. You can even take both views at the same time, whatever brings you the best results.

No man is really capable of "being himself" when he is very unhappy (namely, when he is not fulfilling his desire for sex). All those denial-based belief systems are manifestations of him trying to cope with his unhappiness. Guys in denial about getting women are usually not very happy, nor are they getting much sex. Therefore no man who is in denial is truly being himself.

Well thanks :)


I'm on to you boys :hmm: ;)

Damn :(

well... i must say that this thread is pretty informative, it gives people ideas of what the can improve on.....

Averett.... you seem like a very genuine girl, being that you are a girl you will always have men hitting on you, some will want to get into your pants, others may perhaps be the real deal. Its up to you to decipher who is who. Dont be discouraged though, just wait and things will happen for you.


I wanted to post my situation to see what you guys think... here is some background of me:

I have always been one of the "nice guys", and honest person, caring, romantic and true hearted. Well, then again, Ive always had a girlfriend, (ive been through quite a few of them....)

well i guess i am at a crossroad... do i continue to be that nice guy or do try to work on my communication skills and confidence level to meet new people. I am unsure cause it is difficult with the heart that i have... I am just a unique person, so even though I have a few people i am talking to, it seems like its gonna get me into a heap of trouble (with all of them finding out)

well here is the deal:

My girlfriend and i just broke up a month or so ago, (i am very in love with her, but it wasnt working out) well, we still have the lingering effects that usually happen in these type of breakups (we are trying to remain friends to see if things can improve, and having "beneficial" time as well) well at the same time, i am talking to one girl that i see as only having the potential to have intimate relations with. I am talking to a second girl that really likes me (but i gave her the too busy to have a relationship excuse) but i am starting to make plans with her. and finally i am talking to a 3rd girl who is a bit older than me (i am 21 she is 23) and we are having LONG talks and we are starting to like each other... well I see this ending up one of two ways... I know if i take my time ( i am single by the way so no wrongdoing is occuring) and go very slow, i can work through this and perhaps the solution will present itself as to who i will end up with (if anyone)....OR #2 I will somehow fuck up, they will get suspicious and all leave... i dont consider myself a player, nor do i want to be one, but i am interested in the experience of meeting new women, several new women...

so what do you guys think?

really cool thread. thanks Plan9 and all for the great tips...

:)

Your latest installment is informative and mind-opening. I know because I cringed reading it. In your terms I would be a combination of the nice guy and escapist with low self-esteem. As extreme options go, you left out the "go gay" one. If I could flip that switch, believe me, I would. It would be so much easier to circumvent this female creature. But back to reality...

This is struck a chord. A rather forward girl at school asked me, during some between class chit-chat, if I had a girlfriend. I almost cracked up; all I could think in my head was "Are you high?" She then asked if I wasn't looking or what the deal was (aside: she does have a boyfriend, which is good, because it kills any fantasy immediately). All I could say was that I'm not that socially fit. This is true of course, but I'm not sure why I almost seem to revel in this status.

To make this a bit easier for everyone to read, I put all of Plan9's lessons together and formatted them a bit.

Get it here:

http://iceberg5.dyndns.org/fg101.pdf

http://iceberg5.dyndns.org/fg101.htm

iHawk

nice job mate, i'll get the file post-haste
thanks a bunch

I don't know if that would really change anything. You'd probably have just the same problems finding a guy for you, because then, guys will become for you what girls are right now.
Anyways, I think Plan9's lessons have some pretty good ideas, but don't take them literally, just try to go that direction. It's better than how it is right now. Most important point is, if you don't succeed getting a certain girl, that's not worse than not trying at all. Actually, giving up is worse than rejection, so there is no reason not to keep trying :p
Eventually it will work.

I only managed to read till end of page 2 before i had to go answer the phone. Damn, i have to tell at least 5 of these obsessed women that i don't have the time for 'em. I hope someone hasn't already mentioned this, but having a sister (or having a friend with a sister) is invaluable.

Sam821, I can tell just by reading your post that you are a nice guy. After breaking up, nobody feels comfortable meeting people and hangin out with them. Fortunately it seems that you have a couple girls lined up that will keep your mind occupied while you get over your ex. This is good. Sometimes us guys will have gotten rid of our girl "friends" after dating some girl for a while and when the relationship is over we are left with nothing. You definately have a leg up in recovering :). Keep reading this thread and take any tips that I give and apply them to your life to help you achieve the success that you want with women....whatever that may be.

Anyhow, to update everybody, I have been talking to the last girl I got her number (the last one of the 3 friends that I posted about previously) and each time I have talked to her, the conversation was going very well and she was into it.. this is when I told her I had to go. She keeps calling ;). This girl is a keeper... an artist who graduated from Michigain State and moved down to Orange County a few months ago. She has a nice job, owns her own house, and is un-fucking believably great looking. She could pretty much get whoever she wants, but she is interested in me... why? Well, because I have made it seem that I "might" not be intersted in her, and that is the key.

Anyhow that reminds me of when I broke up with my last girlfriend and had to remind myself of how to talk conversate with women to keep them seeing me as the dominant one and not some weak guy who just got dumped on. Anyhow it made me want to give another lesson on conversation:

Nouning

This is a technique I read about that will help those of you who have trouble with conversation. You’ll be able to hold a conversation without a problem. It could start with the simplest of questions like, “What did you do today?” You’ll learn to do this with practice without even thinking about it, but for now, here’s how you do it. (this is taken from another post)

quote:You: So what do you do with yourself?

Her: Oh, Im in Trinity College in Dublin studying Law.

Take the nouns out of this reply... (Noun: a person place or thing!)

3 Nouns in her reply:

1- Trinity College
2- Dublin
3- Law

Pick any of these and ask her a question about it! Let's say you pick 'Dublin':

You: Dublin eh? So what do ya think of the place?

OR

You: So what's the nightlife like up there?

Or if you chose 'Law':

You: So what made you choose to do Law? Is it tough?

Then she'll answer with something like:

Her: (In regard to 'Dublin' nightlife) Yeah the nightlife's excellent, especially Club Spirit. Although it can be pretty rough after the clubs close, especially in Grafton Street!

Now repeat the process, taking out the nouns and asking her questions about them.

Nouns in the previous answer: Club Spirit, Grafton Street.

Make sense? This is an easy way to keep the conversation flowing from what she just told you. I’d suggest you go out to coffee with a friend that you don’t know very well and see if you can keep the conversation going using this technique.

6. Use Open-Ended Questions
Open-ended questions are questions that require more than a yes or no answer, and they easily lead to more conversation. Examples:

What are you studying?
What did you do today?

How was…?
What are your thoughts on…?
What’s your stance on…? (to get her opinion on something)
What do you like about…?
What do you think about…?

7. Men want facts; women want feelings
This of course is a generalization that I read somewhere: Men like to cut to the facts. They don’t like all the small talk and stuff in between. Men organize thoughts in their head and then say what needs to be said. Women use talking as a means to organize their thoughts.

Women also like to talk about feelings and how something makes them feel. The feelings associated with things. Have you ever talked to a girl for months, but the conversations were just based on facts, so you never really got to know the girl? What you want to do is take any facts she gives you, and dig deeper to get to feelings.

Girl: I really like Brad Pitt.
Guy: What is it about him that you like?
Girl: Well he’s got a great sense of style. He pulls off different looks and they all work for him. He seems really confident and…

You want to get her to expand on her original thought. Let her talk but make sure you’re controlling where the conversation is going. Never let the conversation go out of your control!

8. Listen to Her!
I’m sure you’ve all heard girls complain about guys that don’t listen. If you ask the girl the proper questions and just sit back and listen, she’ll tell you exactly how to seduce her. She’ll tell you what she looks for, what she likes, and what she doesn’t like. You guide the conversation then use this so you know what she wants to hear and how she wants to hear it. If any of you have ever done sales, you’ll know what I’m talking about. Always let the customer talk first and they’ll tell you what they want to hear.


Girls like guys who can keep them interested. Try to keep the conversation different. Take risks. Talk to her about stuff other guys usually wouldn’t; you’ll stick in her mind. Watch the news so you know what’s going on in the world. You can use that to get opinions out of her if you need something to talk about.

One more technique, which is a little more advanced, is using statements instead of questions. This isn’t to carry a conversation, it’s just a technique you can use to change things up a bit and display a lot of confidence.

Are you tired of meeting weird guys?
=> You must be tired of meeting weird guys.

What school do you go to?
=> So tell me what school you’re from

How was your day?
=> Tell me about your day

They usually start with

"So...", "Then..."
"You must..."
"You could..."
"It must be..."

Statements they take a position and a risk. If you say, “I prefer dogs”, you’re taking a risk. She might prefer cats. Saying, “I’m not interested in a long term relationship right now” is taking a risk.

Making these statements shows her your courage and confidence instead of being a guy who sits back and asks safe questions. It also gives you more control because you’re telling her to tell you something, not asking her nicely (but stating it isn’t rude either).

You don’t need Q-Cards to keep a conversation going. Just go with what she says. It’s as easy as that.

I have to post again because I am thinking about this new girl that I met. Ok, here is the deal...she is a 9 on my scale and that is HUGE, but the thing is that so far she is making herself too easy and showing me too much interest and in a weird way this is making her value decrease. I cannot help this, I have always liked the ones that don't liek me and pushed away the ones who do. Humans inherantly want what they cannot have, therefore you will get 2 lessons tonight. I want to describe this phenomenon.

Lesson -You Want Her, You Don't


Ok since a lot of you are still transforming from AFC's to super Alpha males, I'd like to introduce you to a come situation that you'll run into time and time again once you become a established PUA. Just run this scenario through your head with me.


You meet a HB and you have a high interest level. You get the opportunity to work your C/F and she's taking the bait like a big fish. So now you've reeled her in and have complete control over her. She's definitely a good looking broad and her interest level keeps rising for you. However you on the other hand for one reason or another are losing interest. But why?? I'll tell you....

90% of women like to give off the impression that they play "the game" better than anyone else they know. Once you've get to dissect their brains on a few get together's they'll tell you things like "I have to have a challenge otherwise I lose interest." Or some other variation of this line. The real reason women say all these things is because they been around some many AFC's for their entire dating lives. When an Alpha Male walks into the picture they crumble and don't know what to do or say. Within a few weeks they (girls) turn into AFC's themselves!!! LOL They call you ALL the time, they tell you how much they like you etc. From a guy's standpoint this just get's old!!

As human beings we have been conditioned to like "the chase." Once this part dies off, its inevitable that you'll lose interest and move on to someoene else. Now I know super HB's probably won't get NEXT'D as quickly but eventually they get boring too.

That's the whole purpose of this thread. To teach you how to be selective and weed out the pretenders, from the real players. So don't be afraid to NEXT a HB even if she hasn't done anything wrong. Actually when you really think about it, that just might be the problem, they never do anything wrong.

life is odd eh?
-p9

Even though I cant be stuffed reading everything, the only thing I can say is.. treat your girl with respect (or future girl) treat every moment asif it is your last, don't be afraid to speak your heart or your mind, tell her how you feel, care for her, treat her well and be true to yourself too.

And control yourself :D

ahaha I just read everything..

hahaha :D good job fellas :)

Damn, finally finished reading all this. I've been a NiceGuy for a while, and I have attracted some girls.. Just not ones I'm that interested in (doesn't mean they're unattractive, there are just others I'm more interested in). So, I've been thinking about these things quite a bit lately, hoping I can somehow combine NG and PUA, and many of the conclusions I have arrived at are covered in what you have said. Good for my confidence.
Thanks for these posts, they have covered some good stuff that I hadn't thought about. I'll post again in the near future to add my recent experiences for everyone.

Good afternoon all. I'm suprised I haven't read this thread before, but theres so many threads and so little time. I have a really good contribution planned... as I have made the transition from "Nice Guy" to "Guy who actually gets some" and I too have many pointers.

I was a "Nice Guy" all through high school. I never had any success with girls at all, and had one or two serious dates. The only time in which I even made out with girls was when I was drunk or playing truth or dare. I had plenty of respect for and genuine like of women, even with my little success. I had tons of female friends and always enjoyed the differences between their mindsets and mine ( I'm a macho guy, even for a "nice guy")

When I went to college, I decided to be more proactive with my approach to women. I started asking them out, and in return, was rejected probably 15 times in a row. That is no exaggeration whatsoever. I have been rejected right-out more than even PUAs do in a year. This is where my transition from "Nice guy" started.

As plan9 illustrated, you first go through a period of low self-esteem, thinking that something was wrong with me. However, I have a supportive group of freinds ( male and female ) who assure me there is nothing wrong with me.

Then... I started blaming women.

Yes , this is a convienant solution, especially when all the women you know and talk to regularly blow smoke up your ass and say "Oh, I want a man who <fits your description as you would imagine and what has been told to you> just not you"

Not until you get to this point can you start actually gaining sucess ( Unless it is sheer luck)

A little bit of misogyny goes a long way. I started being more direct with girls and instead of asking them out, I started telling them I had no interest in their bullshit ( I have the best group of friends anyone could ask for, why would I need one who I shared little in common with?)
Sure, you'll get rejected alot but you stand a greater chance at success. Any girl who is interested will go for this, and she doesn't have to know how much you secretly loathe women.

So far, this has worked for me once, but I've only tried it 3 times. That average is much better than my average when I first started college and was a nice guy....

But... there is a price to pay. Some people change, some people never will. If you are a "Nice Guy" ( which in all reality means you have no sexually attractive traits to females ).. you are unlikely to ever actually change. You can fill your heart with hatred towards females and view them as cumdumpsters, but that won't make you any more attractive to females.

You stand alot to gain ( ass ) but alot to lose. If you are direct with women, the more likely they are to reveal any feelings towards you. And if the feelings are slight bit negative or don't coincide with yours... boom. You can throw any sort of friendship/relationship into the trash quickly.

I have lost several meaningful friendships with my female friends ( no, I was not an IW as I had no attraction to these female friends ) because of my newfound misogyny, and have felt nothing. My former "Nice Guy" side who respected females is twisted inside about it, but my new found "Outlaw Biker" side has no concern whatsover. This leads me to more unhappiness than not getting laid as I've discovered a newfound hatred for people in general.

My point is this : Plan9s guide will work. All these guides you see are the truth... women want something different. Being yourself is great, but if you aren't happy with getting none then you will have to change. With these changes, you might be happy with your newfound success in women but find out that the new you makes you sick to your stomach.

Think of where you plan on going. If you can't stand the thought of you being a misogynistic, superficial bonehead like all the sucessful dudes you've watched get all the chicks before, don't do it.

I myself plan on continuing my current usage of my newfound OBness. After my success, I decided that I could revert to my old self and get girls that way... and failed miserably. I have to change to get girls, and that is the choice I have to make. And with choices, come consequences as the old cliche goes.

With my current attitude towards women, I will never be able to have an emotionally rewarding relationship of any kind with any female, as my physical desires are much more than my emotional desires after 19 years(I'm 20 now) of no sex and no girlfriends, and I can only look at women as sex objects now, even if they do share common interests as me. And I fully well realize that if I go back to my old self I'll scare away the women I'm currently "using" ( this happened with my FWB )....

Plan9 most of what you have to say is solid advice.
I have to disagree here, I've met some fine young women who have never been taken on a real date. That's a shame, so a way to win quick brownie points into their panties is to take them on a date. Am I advicating taking a girl on an expensive date the first time out with her, no, that would be a waste of money. But if the context is right, hell yes, it can be a quick in. You need to know when to woo a girl and when not, that's all.

I like your rating system, I've never broken it up into categories before, but it makes a lot of sense.

Everyone has different scales; mine is 1-10 also but...
0-4 personality (should read - lack of bitchiness)
0-3 face
0-1 misc body
0-2 tits
:)

Dating is bad if all you want is ass(which is a very respectable thing, don't get me wrong) however, if you are the type who prefers girlfriends, then going on dates is a good idea.

The keys are to have them on nontraditional days only (sunday through thursday), and to keep them reasonable. First few dates should be coffee or something similar. No presents, no 15 compliments, etc..

Since no one else has said it yet:

RESPECT THE COCK! AND TAME THE CUNT!

I've been working on the 'inner game' for a while now. Weight training is a great confidence builder in my opinion. When I know I'm looking good, I find it much easier to talk to girls....

Workout out will do yourself SOOOOOO much good it isn't even funny. Not only does it make you look good, but you start producing more testosterone, which girls are inherently attracted to. Without even trying, you will begin to exude more confidence, which leads to turning girls heads wherever you go. Any of you guys who are working out automatically have a "leg up" on the competition.

Went out with one of the 3 girl (the ones who were all friends) that I met last week. We went to get coffee, I stayed talking to her for about an hour (a tad more then necessary) then told her I had to run. Needless to say, when I walked her to her car (notice I didn't pick her up.. made her meet me there) she immediately asked when she could see me again. I told to give me a call. After that I went out to a local bar... talked to a few more potential girls... got a call from the one I went to coffee with (didn't answer), and came home. Take note from this. Althout this girl is a 9 on my scale, I have her ALREADY chasing after me like I am the prize :p. I did nothing more then follow the advice that I have given all of you. Hopefully, some of you can share some success story about some girl that you have used my techniques on and have given you success. I would love to hear them :)

well, so far im keeping control of my situation i stated earlier... Tonight I am going to "chill" with my ex and then I am supposed to meet up with one of the girls tomorrow to get coffee (not quite sure yet).... and then Next Friday I made plans to join the OTHER girl for her birthday.... i dont know where this will take me... but after talking a lot with my ex and where we stand, i am realizing that i am indeed single, and i need to start acting like it (lord knows she is probably talking to guys behind my back as well)

On another note, I went to the mall the other day with my friend, and out of NO WHERE, not one but TWO girls approached me at different times during my walk around the mall. The first one worked at the food court, while i was ordering, i kept eye contact with her the entire time, gazing into her eyes, this worked very well, i was absorbing the vibes of interest she was giving the whole time... after i ordered i sat down with my friend to eat, then "ironically" she happens to go on break that moment, so i figured it was sort of planned out and i turned around and talked with her for like 20 minutes, I ended by saying i had go shopping, and she told me "well now you know where i work" and i used a nice little line "now i have a reason to return"... and i left
the second girl worked at Spencers, (not sure if you guys have them at your malls, but its a novelty store and they sell blacklights, lava lamps, crazy but cool shit) well im look at the blacklights with my friend (so i can buy one for my sisters b-day) and low and behold, this girl (a supervisor at this store) walks up to me and says "oh thats and 18" black light, they are on sale"... it was funny because we obviously knew what we were shopping for (me and my friend knew she said that just to make conversation)... so i decided to go talk to her since she made the initial contact.. i went back up to her and asked her what she was studying (she had this huge binder in her hand) and from there we hit it off, i asked her about her school and life, she asked me about mine... it went on for another 20 minutes, and i said well i gotta get going... she said well nice getting to know you, come back sometime, and i used my line again.. "well now i have a reason to come back".... and i left...

It was GREAT... i didnt get there phone numbers cause i didnt want to act hastily (plus i already have more than enough to worry about with the other 3-4 girls im talking to)... but i decided that i would go back in a week and check back up on them.... to see whats up, perhaps i will get there numbers there.....

It was definitly a fun time.....

Plan9....


here is a question for you about a situation and how you would handle it....


I went out last night with my best friend and his girl... we went to a restaurant... well from out of no where this BEAUTIFUL (9 on my scale) waitress comes to take our order... i mean she was unbelievable (love at first sight)

well, i started off by saying she had nice earrings on (they were unique feather earrings, pretty cool looking actually).... so she comes back with our drinks, and takes our order, as she leaves to go to another table i say to my friend "WOW she is beautiful!!!" when all of a sudden she turns right back around and says "did you say something", well instead of panicking, i said "yes i did say something, i said you were beautiful", she gave me a BIG smile and said "thank you that was nice".... well afterwards she brought our food, stopped to talk to us a few times...blah blah blah.... towards the end of our meal, my bud's girlfriend asked the waitress if she had a boyfriend, and YES SHE DID!!!! DAMN@$#!

well, after i feel like shit for a second, I decided not to let it bother me, so when she came back again with our check, i asked her hold old she was. to my surprise she was 24, and sexy as hell... and a very sweet girl i may add... well after that we all were talking about what she does and what she wants to do (she wants to become an actress) so that talking went on for a while.....

well as we were getting ready to leave, she turned to us (me more specifically) and said "thank you, it was nice talking to you guys, and i come back again"....then i told her "well next time i come back hopefully you'll be single", so she laughed and said "well we'll see"...

anyways, man, she was mind boggling hot.... i want that soooo bad!!!... so WHAT DO I DO?????

what do you think?

how would you approach that?

Well Number 1 she was a Waitress. She is supposed to make you feel good when you go out. Its her job to make you feel comfrotable. But anyways.

Few Job professions to stay away from..
Waitress
Bartender
Stripprs
Anything that deals with food or drink enviroment..

But dont get me wrong folks. These professions are good. I think she was just doign her job. Cause i was once a Waiter.

But anyways. Keep up the pimpin :>

I took that into consideration (that she is a waitress) even before i said ANYTHING to her.... and i know how many people must hit on her....

but on a different note, it could be a good thing cause maybe people are intimidated cause of how good she looks and that she is a waitress and maybe i had the balls to say something to her.... i dont know....

Hey, if you are gonna hit on her, might as well go all the way.

Ask for her number next time, maybe you'll get it. Just be confident.

You're friend's girlfriend is a bitch, she cockblocked you. Why do you want to know if she has a boyfriend? The thing is, you don't. What does he have to do with you and the waitress? Nothing. That is one of those questions I have a don't ask don't tell policy on. If all I want is sex, then why does it matter to me if the girl is in a relationship? It doesn't, so don't ask. Besides asking gives her an easy excuse to reject you.

yea... thats exactly how i felt.... i told her after she did that "WHY THE HELL DID YOU DO THAT FOR!!!" but, its all good... if nothing happens, oh well..... for some odd reason i must be giving off vibes or something because i am getting the attention of A LOT more girls lately.... (this is a GOOD thing)... so if things dont work out with this waitress, then there will be others...

Cardinal is a real life friend of mine, and he basically took the words out of my mouth. I don't bother with Bartenders, Waitresses, or Strippers... all the same type of woman, and nothing you want to be involved with. If for some reason, you are drawn to her and cannot help it, then just be forward and aggressive. Tell her you would like to get to know her or hang out with her outside of this place... tell her to give you her number so you can give her a call sometime. Cut to the chase with these types, otherwise you will be wasting a lot of time chasing a girl who is just leading you on to make a little extra cash ;)

Bump.. what does it take to make this a sticky ;).

Lesson #16 Alpha Male at a Party


So school's in session for a lot us and that means 2 things: Super Hot Biatches and plenty of Keg filled parties Over the past few months you've been learning how to become more confident with yourself and portraying that confidence to all the girls you meet. However, while all the techniques I have taught work to perfection if you do them correctly, being an Alpha Male at a Party is a little different. Let's look at why that's the case:


TONE OF VOICE!!!: I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS preech about having a deep, seductive tone of voice when you talk to girls. Its true, this works and makes girls more attracted to you. However, at a party, where there's loud music, you would sound like an absolute jack-ass if you approach a girl and try to sound like some Rico Suave pimp. Now if you get her alone in a room or a quiet place then you should use the tone of voice, but chances are that you'll meet up with a bunch of girls on the dance floor, or a crowded hall way with blaring music.


ATTITUDE!!!: Now you never want to go away from appearing confident and Alpha, but you should add a new element to your "bag of tricks" at a party. THE FUN GUY!!! Think about it, everytime you go to a party there is ALWAYS one guy who talks to EVERYONE, is loud smiling and really enjoying the party. This guy can get laid just because of his attitude. Trust me, girls notice this shit. The girls came to a party to have fun, and if he's the center of all that fun they'll be VERY OPEN to his advances.


MINGLE!!! Unless your building tremendous rapport with one of the hottest girl's at the party, WALK AROUND!!! Don't be that tool who hold's his plastic cup of cheap $2 beer and drools at all the girl's with his friend. Go walk around, you'll be shitting your pants at how many incredibly fine ass girls are at the party. When I go to a party where I don't know anyone except for a friend or 2, I usually "feel out the situation" for about 10 minutes and then spot out my "victim" and immediately approach. But logicallly think to yourself. All these girls are there to hook up, have fun and meet new people. You can give them all of that by being confident, talking to tons of people(girl's and guys) and becoming the center of attention.

Work Jealously to the Max: This should be embedded in the front of all your minds if it isn't already. Ok, we will never completely understand chicks, right? Ok, but what we do know is they are EXTREMELY JEALOUS beings. How many times have you told a girl you can't hang out on this night because you already have plans etc. And what's the next thing the chick says?? "Who are you hanging out with?? Or "do you have a date tonight??" LOL If she's asking you these questions, you should ummm....."strecth the truth.." Well Jealousy is a lot more evident at parties. The next time your at a party, spot out a HB that you want. Lay all the ground work and go talk to her for a while. Then suddenly excuse yourself and go talk to other HB's right in front of her. See if you catch her staring out of the corner of your eye. Or better yet, came back after you excuse yourself and ask her friend to dance with you. The orginial HB will most likely have a look like "WTF" when you leave her hanging. Don't worry, this is doing nothing except increasing her attraction for you. As the alcohol kicks in some girl's get quite aggressive, so don't be surprised if she comes and butts in and is pleading for your attention.



FOCUS: Ever remember back in your major AFC days when you felt like you weren't trying at all and you found out that a chick liked you?? And then when you wanted a girl soooooooooo bad she'd never be interested? Eventually your bros and yourself came up with a theory that the "less you try" the more you get!! LOL What bullshit!!! Can you look back at these days and realize what was going on?? You were being an Alpha male filled with confidence without even knowing it with all the girls that liked you who you didn't care for. And you were being a supplicating AFC bitch with the SHB's you wanted. When ever you go to a party you should play a #'s game in your head. Its not, will I hook up tonight, its how many girls will I hook up with tonight?? Obiviously it depends on if there are hot chicks there, but most likely there are always a handful. Look at the top athletes in professional sports. Did Jordan ever doubt that he'd make the buzzer beating game winning shot?? NOPE!! And although he missed his share, he made A LOT!! His confidence was so high he never doubted he'd come through. This is the same mentality that an Alpha Male should have at a party. Your always going to hit road blocks, but you should barrel through them and keep on truckin'!!


Rejection: Well unless your incredibly drunk, you should never really get rejected when you move in for a kiss because of the "kiss test" but if you do, who gives a shit??? Ditch her and find a new whore to get with. Do it right infront of the girl that rejected you 5 minutes earlier and suddenly you'll be "a lot more attractive" to the first girl. Remember we've said it before, rejection should never be taken personally, it happens for a # of different reasons. Lots of girls deny guys they REALLY REALLY LIKE the first few times to make them more interested in them. However if a girl does this to you at a party (assuming you've never met her before the party) ditch her and find someone else. You don't have time for bullshit "games"


Finally I'd like to say, there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be able to approach 10 girls at a party. All the odds are in your favor. Alcohol, horny people, and good music. Go live it up bros, be the guy I described and your penis will thank you....

I just wanted to say thanks for the tips.

I will be putting them to good use and hopefully take them farther then expected.

You have given a lonely man much needed hope, and guidence.

agian, thanks

Here are a couple of my recent experiences.
Last week I was at a Starbucks, more for confidence building than anything else. I had never done anything like this before, so it was kinda a big step. Also, it was 1:45 in the morning, so there wasn't much of a selection.. I just sat alone and tried to look confident. Probably not the best approach =) but anyway: a girl got up to go to the bathroom, but instead of going straight towards it she took a longer route around some tables, and faced me. We made eye contact, but I sat there and let her continue to the bathroom. When she came out, we made eye contact again as she went back to her seat. I couldn't get up any courage to go and say hi, but I heard her and her friends saying that I should be coming over to talk to them.
Lessons: 1) don't be afraid of her friends, they'll be cool if you come over to talk to her. She's going to be the one you're talking to the most, so their presence shouldn't affect you much at all. 2) Eye contact rules. It seems like one of the biggest factors to starting a convo. I made eye contact for a total of maybe 3 seconds, and they started wishing I would come over. 3) I don't think you necissarily have to go around talking to lots of girls&guys to give the impression that you're an alpha male. This is definately a better approach at a party than chillin' by yourself, but remember that you can give off a sense of confidence just by the way you drink your coffee as you look around the room. Feel confident and it will show.
Today, I was at the mall shoe shopping. I saw a very good looking girl, 8.5-9, also looking at shoes. This would be my 2nd attempt (well, first real one) so it took me a while to go talk to her. I don't think she saw me before I went up to her though, so I got lucky in regard to the 3 second rule. I smiled and said "Hi, how are you doing?" and immediately got a big smile back. I didn't have a good second question even though I'd been walking around a couple minutes trying to decide on one, and asked if she thought shopping alone was boring. I had decided before coming up to her that that was a crappy question (and it was), but it worked fine anyway and we started talking. She was having the same problem as I was, couldn't find shoes she liked. She was trying on a pair and asked how I thought they looked, and I thought they looked okay, so said they looked "good". She said "You're just saying that.." Woops, that's where that rule about not complimenting a girl that high on your scale comes from. I laughed and didn't say anything for a few seconds. Bad bad bad. I then tried to agree with her a bit, saying something about them not having sides. Also not a great idea. We talked a bit more and there was another silence. I asked if she wanted to get something to drink, and she said she had to go have dinner with her family soon.. Pretty soon after that, she said she had to get going, nice meeting you, etc. As I walked off, I realized I never asked her name! I came back but of course she was gone.
So that started out real well, despite my stupid question. I think it all started going south when I said I liked the shoes. So there are a few examples what Plan9's been saying. I complimented her, then tried to change my opinion to coincide with hers. I should have looked more carefully at the shoes, and come up with something I didn't like. From there, I could have asked a few more questions like where she went to school (or her name, I got too into our conversation I guess.. but what a stupid mistake) then broken off our conversation, since it was going well and she was interested in talking with me. I definately shouldn't have asked if she wanted to get a drink.
Please comment on my conclusions =)

End result: I started a pretty good conversation with a hot girl just by smiling, looking at her eyes, and saying hi. It was easy once I had said hi, and the experience sure has helped my confidence.
P.S. If you are having issues approaching a girl, remember this: you aren't trying to get laid, you're trying to talk to her. That is what will build confidence so that is what you want to be doing right now. All you have to do to talk to her is say hello!

I've read through number 6 so far... this thing's long! So far what you say seems about on par. This should help quite a few people.

There is no 1-way to "get women". That's a crock of shit, and even women know it. Every single individual women wants exactly the same thing, even if they don't admit to it. They all want a huge big cock to stretch their vagina. And even lesbians want a huge dildo. So no matter the case, women always want something that originates from within a man's pants. I don't know WHY women have to lie about being horny 24/7. Us guys do it all the time, and we're not ashamed of it because there's nothing to be ashamed OF!

Wow Balano, you must be a big hit with the ladies...

So you must have a pretty small cock, right? You're seeming a bit bitter there... I mean, first you say there is no one way to get women, then you say that we all just want a big cock to stretch our vagina. I think you're a little misguided my friend.

:thumbsup: @ Averett ;)

and i gotta also give a 'nice work + :)' to Plan9...regardless of my agreement on the tactics/strategies, i think overall you've given sound advise to those choosing to do things this way. and your hard work and dedication to this thread is admirable.

:)

Agreed. Very strongly :D

Also agreed. An excellent thread, regardless of whether or not you agree with it.

Yup, took me awhile to get with the program though ;)

A very informative thread, now i've just gotta put some of these tips into practice. Props goes to Plan9

get out of my thread lolz :rolleyes:

This forum has an 18 year old limit. Possibly you did not read the stipulations when you signed up... dunno.. but either way, grow up kiddo ;).

I have unfortunatly been hanging out with that girl lately and she is eating up my time. I havent been able to muster enough energy to post another lesson, but I am definately dissapointed that I come to check here and there are no stories of success or any questions on what to do. Either nobody is using this advice or you are too lazy to tell us about your successes and failures. Anyhow, winter vacation is here for all of you students and I expect you to be going out a lot and practicing these methods! Please share some of your stories, even if they went bad. We can all learn from the mistakes and also be motivated from the successes.

- a tired P9

PS. Happy Holidays all :)

I have been talking with a secretary at work, although she's about 8 years older than me. Sometimes i wonder though, if she's taking me seriously or just thinks i am little boy or something :lol:
Albeit she's probably too old anyway, or i have no chance. It's hard to know if she's flirting and seriously or just mucking around. I think the age difference scares me as well :eek:

Although, office relationships don't seem to work. ALthough it'd be cool to have sex on the photocopier :) ....i am getting ahead of myself...

hmm, sorry, that was generally pointless.

Although yesterday i was talking to a girl on the bus about mine and her books (she was reading 1984, me Brave new world, sorta similar concepts and themes) but she got off too quickly. I think it was going well though, although i found it hard to work the questions around much else than about books and other topics related to that, casue i was a little tired myself that day, like at the end of all days, nowadays...

So yeah, pretty much 2 rejections in the last few days. Can't wait for the christmas and hoilday parties though, cause in your thread about parties, i normally do similar things which normally work out ok. We'll see how it goes.

So far though, my shooting percentage isn't good....holidays can't come soon enough.....

Thank you for all of the advice. It can't hurt to try some of it out.

I worked a bit on the PDF, looks a lot nicer now! :D
But I won't continue the HTML-Version, that's too much work and looks crappy.

Getting Girls 101

And finally, I got myself to actually try that stuff. Went to a party last night with a few friends, and just by telling me I was confident, I surprisingly GOT confident. And that seemed to work so far... let's see what happens :cool:
Anyhow, I felt much better than at most parties before, had a lot more fun and I guess girls tend to notice that.

Sometimes tho, you'll go 18 years without even kissing a girl. Then at work, one of the top5 hottest chicks in your school will start talking to you, then calling you every night for weeks, then break up with her bf of 9 months, and... you just act all confused, because i am, damnit. There is hope for those of us who are lazy, depressed, timid, modest, anti-social computer geeks. but she'll probably die in a car crash tomorrow or something.