Daoust

Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.

If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.

Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.

For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all
In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.

We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.

We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.

*********************

There's more... but I think this is enough to get stir the proverbial pot...

Please discuss...

My opinion... I think we should be allowed to pray in school, because Muslims are...
But I'd never write this...

__________________
I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

Bill O'Rights

If you wouldn't write it...then why post it?

I can't decide whether this belongs in politics, or in nonsense...but, since you wish to open a discussion on it, I'm willing to allow it to float along...for a bit. Then I'll decide what to do with it.

Now, are you saying that Muslims are permitted to pray in school, whereby Christians are not? Correct me if I'm wrong, but anyone can pray in school. How's that go...as long as there are tests in school, so there will be prayer? In any event, it is my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, that it is school sanctioned prayer that is verboten. IE...Miss Wormwood cannot lead her class in a morning devotional.

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guthmund

Aside from Bill's objections (and fine objections they are), I'd seriously have to question your use of 'unbiased.' It's the question mark throwing me off...I'm not sure if you're serious or the remark was tongue in cheek..?

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Martian

Bill O'Rights has it right. You can fall to your knees any time you're not otherwise engaged. But school-led prayer (as used to be the case) is no longer permitted in public classrooms. This is how it should be; you may agree with morning prayer, but what about the Muslims or Buddhists or Harre Krishnas or Atheists? They don't want to pray to God every morning, or at the very least not like you do and they shouldn't be made to.

Muslims are allowed to pray for the same reason Sikhs are allowed to wear their turbans in places where hats aren't commonly allowed. A Muslim is required by his faith to pray to Allah five times per day; Christian faith in general requires that you pray, but doesn't set the times to do so or have a specific time of day that it must occur. Christian ideology is much more flexible that way.

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I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

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hrandani

Oh noes, the poor Christians minority is getting overwhelmed by the pinko godless commies.
At this rate, in order to become President you'll have to undergo a ten hour bukkake session!

Please.

Daoust

Hey, I'm not saying I believe what the poem is saying. I'm not saying it's me... I'm just saying it's worthy of discussing... clearly it is, because of the fiery retorts of Bill and others...

Guthmund has most closely guessed what I was implying with the title... sarcasm.

Bill. So I have to come up with every thing I post? No attachements? What?

__________________
I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

maximusveritas

Daoust, the problem is that you say you wouldn't write it and yet you agree with it's general premise regarding school prayer. That bears further explanation. Why wouldn't you write it?

Just to add onto what Bill already said, Muslims are afforded no extra privileges in this regard. While it may vary by school district, they generally may pray during lunch time or other breaks, but not in class. Christians are afforded these same privileges. The only difference is that Muslims may be allowed in some places to leave class on Friday afternoon to attend required prayer at their local mosque.

Mojo_PeiPei

Doesn't public Christian prayer have to be outside of the school? Where as schools around the country facilitate Muslims with prayer rooms? Double Standard, you decide.

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Charlatan

Not that I am aware of... there was a Christian Fellowship club in my High School that used to get together and pray all the time.

As far as I know a child can pray anytime they want to.

No double standard there.

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guthmund

Ahhh, so it was sarcasm....Okay.

I've never seen these 'prayer rooms' you speak of, mojo. Specific rooms built or reserved for prayer....? I would think those would be a big no-no, wouldn't they?

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rlbond86

I have never seen one of these so-called "prayer rooms."

There's a Christian Fellowship at my old high school, so I don't see why Christians are unallowed to pray.

But school-led prayer is definitely a no-no. That would mean that the school was endorsing a certain religion.

Daoust

As a teacher in the public system, I can attest that there are definitely Muslim Prayer Rooms, but there are not Christian Prayer rooms. I guess you'll say that that's because every room is a Christian prayer room. To that I say BS!!!! Muslims are given special priveledges, special considerations, special rooms. No one else is. What's up with that...?

__________________
I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

Charlatan

I don't think there are purpose built rooms but I do know that room is given for Muslims to pray should they request it (i.e. some room that isn't being used at the time).

One of my wife's colleagues (she's a teacher) goes and prays in a utility closet where they store supplies (made me think of Clarke Kent when I first heard about it).

__________________
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- Old Man Luedecke

jorgelito

But what about school sports coaches leading the team in prayer before games? Would that constitute school endorsement?

RAGEAngel9

Heck what about the Christians who simply actually read the part of the Gospels where Jesus talks about praying quietly and to yourself, not being a loud mouth?

Aren't these people entitled to praying their own manner, as opposed to some prayer led by a person of authority (in the school)?


EDIT--
This isn't a dig at Gospel music or anything, more saying how people even within Christianity pray in different ways, and may ( and we all know many do) disagree with some ones method of praying to God.

Charlatan

Are Christian required by their religion to pray throughout the day at proscribed times? Do they need to kneel and bow during this prayer?

No.

However, I am sure that if it was needed, a Christian could use the room set aside for the Muslims during the times they are not using it (which is most of the time).

__________________
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- Old Man Luedecke

filtherton

To my knowledge, christianity hasn't ever required prayer rooms. I'm not certain, but i think that muslims are supposed to try and find an out of the way place to pray whereas christians aren't. Do you think christians would be denied prayer rooms if they demanded them?

Ustwo

We had them at the University level too (state).

They don't need prayer rooms either, there is nothing special about the room they pray in. Point east and pray away.

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Daoust

[QUOTE=maximusveritas]Daoust, the problem is that you say you wouldn't write it and yet you agree with it's general premise regarding school prayer. That bears further explanation. Why wouldn't you write it? [QUOTE]

I wouldn't write it in those words. I think it sounds pushy and closed minded. I would attempt to discuss the issue on a more intellectual basis. That's all. is that okay?

__________________
I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

Gilda

Nope. So long as it's a student led activity and it occurs at a time when the students are ordinarily allowed to congregate and talk, they can get together and pray.

The school can't lead the prayer or provide a dedicated place and/or time for it, but the students are allowed to pray anywhere and any time they're allowed unscheduled time.

Gilda

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maximusveritas

That's fine Daoust, I've never seen anyone open a thread this way so I guess it was a bit confusing.
As far as the "prayer room", it's not required that any school build/designate one, but they may choose to do so for their own convenience. For example, they may not have spare rooms available or they may not want kids going into classrooms during breaks. Also, it keeps the students from being a distraction to the other kids and vice versa.

Ustwo

My personal take is prayer in school is pointless and silly.

I went to both private, public, and Catholic schools. Obviously the Catholic ones had prayer in school, we even had church services.....in the gym...in highschool. At that age I was just going through the motions and would be far more likely to be praying I could see the boobies of the girl next to me than for any spiritual reason.

Perhaps my view on religion and prayer is colored by the fact that I became an atheist about age 8-9, while in Church no less.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

guthmund

Well, you see that seems to jibe with my overall high school / college experience, but that isn't the 'vibe' I'm getting from Daoust (and some others, but it's his thread.. ) so, I thought I'd indirectly ask for some clarification.

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shakran

Wow. This is crap, crap, and more crap. Let's see now. . .

No it's not. School-enforced praying is against the rule. The kids can pray all they want. The teachers aren't allowed to TELL the kids to pray.


This great nation finds forcing people to worship god very odd.



That's right. Because teachers aren't supposed to require kids to recite religious texts.


Total bullshit. People pray all the time in schools. In fact, it's just as illegal for a teacher to STOP you from praying as it is for a teacher to MAKE you pray.



I'm confused as to why the writer thinks "spoken aloud" and "forced on the students by teachers" mean the same thing.


It is? Gee, then why the hell is his name on our money?


They have? Gee I didn't know that. Someone should tell all those hunters that wander around the woods every fall.

Or does the writer mean they've outlawed guns in school. If so, why is this a problem? Lemme get this straight. He wants people to go to school, armed to the teeth, and then start praying. Sounds a little odd to me.

Show me ONE LAW that outlaws the bible.


For what? Nice rhyme, but it doesn't say anything.

Who said?

Why? It's just another attempt from the religious right to distort facts in the interest of forcing religion down everyone's throats. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

la petite moi

Good lord, what a bunch of malarky. I've seen plenty of Christian clubs at schools, and it's totally permitted. The only thing that isn't allowed is teaching it to students, because others might have differing views- just as you couldn't teach Islam or Wicca.

Ugh. Frankly, I agree with the previous poster- I think the mods should delete this post as it's just another attempt to "stir shit up." We've all heard this argument WAAAAAY too many times.

Willravel

The atheist in me doesn't care either way. The christian in me really doesn't care. I'd call that unanimus. It's similar to my feelings about happy holidays vs. merry christmas. People need to pay attention to MORE IMPORTANT THINGS. I'm sorry if you actually think this is important, but how can you think that? How unsure of your religious standings do you have to be to care where you can or can't pray? Do you honestly think that they care if it's a silent prayer? How out of touch do you have to be to think that praying in schools is a threat to ANYONE? If God doesn't exist, it really doesn't hurt anyone. If God does exist, then it really doesn't hurt anyone.

No one has died because prayers are banned at schools. No one has died because they couldn't pray at schools. At the most, someone has felt mild discomfert followed by extreme entitlement and soapbox standings. I'm mad this took 5 minutes to write.

TheObserver

Prayer in school should not be forced upon the students to recite, anymore than the pledge of allegiance should be said at all. Before anyone says anything about whether they pledge allegiance to the U.S. or pledge Allegiance to God, or both, they must first have come to that agreement, and once they do, then they can pledge such things. It's not right to attempt to indoctrinate people to be pro-U.S. or pro-God, or vice versa until they're ready to make up their mind. The pledge shouldn't be mandated in schools until 8th grade. That way they know enough of America to at least say judge the immediate likes and dislikes they have on it.

I'm guessing 99.9% would support America and start saying the pledge... but there would be a few who didn't. Lastly even though this is a side topic, the words "under God" in the pledge, should be kept irrelevant if America turns into a predominately athiest, country, or buddhist, or whatever.. For the mere reason the pledge is supposed to reflect America, and all it's significant influences as it grew as a country. The pledge basically represents all major aspects of America, and Christianity is one of them, as it has influenced polilcies and political discisions... and idealogies in general of this country. And we know it influenced all these things, because even though "under God" wasn't in the original pledge by Francis Scott Key, America, the people, and those in power opted to have it put in, by an overwhelming amount, as a representation as part of our country, and our identity, as we continue to grow.

So for similar reason "In God we Trust" is not not unconstitutional, likewise is that phrase of Under God in the pledge. Actually it's unconstitutional to mandate taking it out, as something one must do.

la petite moi

Actually TheObserver, the "Under God" part was inserted into the pledge during the 50's, when we were afraid of communism and wanted to make ourselves seem more moral and Godly than those communists. Ever hear of the Red Scare?

Grasshopper Green

I grew up in Utah and went to a school that was 99.9% Mormon. I saw kids pray at school all the time. Many prayed at lunch before they ate, some prayed before tests, and some prayed before doing plays (I was in drama). Before performing our play at the state competition, most of the kids prayed while the teachers were out of the room. I abstained, as I wasn't religious, and I certainly wasn't offended by the prayer.

Most Mormon kids in Utah attend seminary class while in high school. The seminary building is always across the street so it's not on school property - separation of church and state. As an agnostic, I have no problem with kids praying in school, regardless of their faith, as long as they are doing it of their own accord. However, I DO have a problem with forced prayer. There is a difference.

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JumpinJesus

I'm a little late to this discussion, but it seems to me that the poem in the original post is another one of those email forwards that tells us all we're going to get paid 5 cents by Bill Disney for every person we forward this crap to, and 5 dollars for every kid with a cancerous kidney we buy a beanie baby for and 10 dollars for every teacher we hug and 15 dollars for every little boy listening to God on his CB radio at Christmastime and 20 dollars for every AIDS-soaked needle we pry from our theater chairs, etc. etc. etc. etc.

You'd think in the information age people would be a little less ignorant. I'll acquiesce to shakran's post and let it stay there.

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Cynthetiq

at the airport in London they had a multidenominational prayer room, I assume that it used to be the Chapel.

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Xazy

As a christian what need is there for a special room / area? As a Jew I need none to prey.

Cynthetiq

as a Catholic/Christian there's no need for a special room at all either, unless you want some quiet space.

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