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Old 11-08-2005, 06:39 AM   #1 (permalink)
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VOTE!

Today is election day in the US. If you're registered and you haven't voted yet, please do so on your lunch break or after work. If you're not registered, please do so ASAP. If you're able but didn't, you have lost all right to complain about your elected officials.
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Old 11-08-2005, 07:11 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 11-08-2005, 07:26 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct
Today is election day in the US. If you're registered and you haven't voted yet, please do so on your lunch break or after work. If you're not registered, please do so ASAP. If you're able but didn't, you have lost all right to complain about your elected officials.
I don't see how not voting is any worse than voting for candidates who are equally bad. That said, I will probably vote assuming they received my registration, but I strongly disagree with that statement.
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Old 11-08-2005, 07:40 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n0nsensical
I don't see how not voting is any worse than voting for candidates who are equally bad. That said, I will probably vote assuming they received my registration, but I strongly disagree with that statement.
Bullshit. You and I both know that the candidates in any election you might be voting in are not equally bad. Even if no candidate perfectly represents your political standpoints, it is still your obligation to vote for the one you believe will be a superior elected official.

If, on the other hand, you fail to perform your civic duty, you forfeit your right to bitch about the guy/gal who gets elected. Your best opportunity to complain is inside the voting booth. You'll find me at the polls later this evening...
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Old 11-08-2005, 07:50 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by politicophile
Bullshit. You and I both know that the candidates in any election you might be voting in are not equally bad. Even if no candidate perfectly represents your political standpoints, it is still your obligation to vote for the one you believe will be a superior elected official.

If, on the other hand, you fail to perform your civic duty, you forfeit your right to bitch about the guy/gal who gets elected. Your best opportunity to complain is inside the voting booth. You'll find me at the polls later this evening...
You're the second person recently to begin a rebuttal with the phrase "You and I both know". As I said before, no, I don't, and I wouldn't post something I didn't believe as if I did. It may have been a general statement that doesn't apply to every. single. choice., but so was the statement I originally responded to, and yours. There are plenty of cases where, yes, I think the candidates are equally bad. Mainly those that are a choice between only a Democrat and a Republican, like 2004 California for U.S. Senate. (Remember, California Republicans are Republicans Lite, so they're not automatically the worst choice like they generally are for President) Even ignoring the parties, they can still be considered equally bad in many cases because politicians generally don't care at all about the issues I care most about, or at least don't even try to look like they care, or they care, but have exactly opposite views.

Furthermore, I still don't agree in any case because representatives are representatives of ALL citizens, not just the ones who voted, and everyone has the right to complain about who's representing them regardless of whether they voted for that person. Would you also say I don't have the right to complain about representatives I voted for because I voted for them? In my view, those statements are more or less equivalent.

Last edited by n0nsensical; 11-08-2005 at 07:59 AM..
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Old 11-08-2005, 09:10 AM   #6 (permalink)
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If you don't like either party, make your voice heard- vote for a third party representative! Oh geez, wasted vote. Well it is less wasted using your voting power to express dissatisfaction for both main parties rather than just not voting altogether and being lumped into a group seen as too lazy to vote.
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Old 11-08-2005, 09:21 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I vote after Work every Election. I agree that some times the therd party vote is the best vote. Hear in "Caileforna" Arnold wants us to vote YES.. But I can't vote all yes .
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Old 11-08-2005, 09:25 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Until there is a "none of the above" option to express my dissatisfaction, not voting will remain the only option in certain situations.

And, I have the *right* to complain about anything i want, whenever I want. I wasn't aware the constitution was changed to say otherwise.
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Old 11-08-2005, 09:40 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObieX
Until there is a "none of the above" option to express my dissatisfaction, not voting will remain the only option in certain situations.

And, I have the *right* to complain about anything i want, whenever I want. I wasn't aware the constitution was changed to say otherwise.
Voting "none of the above", or not voting at all, is never in one's interests because you are relinquishing your ability to influence which candidate is chosen. Since it's a sure thing that some candidate is going to be elected, it makes no sense not to vote for any of them. Everybody has a preference, even if that preference is a write-in, a third party candidate, the voter him/herself... We should make our preferences heard on every election day.

In regards to the snide Constitution comment about free speech, I suggest you look at the first amendment and begin by reading the first five words, repeatedly if necessary. You have no constitutional right to free speech.

Furthermore, the statement about a "right to complain" is normative. Your ability to complain is not evidence for or against the veracity of the claim that you have a "right" to do so. Complaining about the candidate who wins an election after one has neglected to fulfill one's duty of helping to select the winner is useless, futile, unnecessary whining. And Jesus hates whiners.
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Old 11-08-2005, 09:44 AM   #10 (permalink)
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What are you guys voting for this time? Governors, senators, what?
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Old 11-08-2005, 09:50 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by politicophile
And Jesus hates whiners.
Didn't Jesus turn whater into whine?
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Old 11-08-2005, 09:53 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by politicophile
Bullshit. You and I both know that the candidates in any election you might be voting in are not equally bad. Even if no candidate perfectly represents your political standpoints, it is still your obligation to vote for the one you believe will be a superior elected official.
You and I both know that that the election is fixed and the Democrat/Republican will surely win. Voting for one of them or wasting your vote on a third party candidate that has no chance gives the appearance that these elections are legitimate and open. Encouraging people to take part in these bogus elections helps to perpetuate them and nothing will change. I suggest we adopt a "None of the Above" vote and just stay away from them in protest. Just go and vote on the local bond issues, etc.
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Old 11-08-2005, 10:25 AM   #13 (permalink)
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If you're bored with the same old not voting argument and just want to get down to it, check out www.smartvoter.org for polling locations.

Edit:
BTW, I'm voting:
Yes on 73
No on 74-76
Yes on 77-79
No on 80

Last edited by Willravel; 11-08-2005 at 10:30 AM..
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Old 11-08-2005, 11:06 AM   #14 (permalink)
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It's not just about your elected officials. Measures and bills are also decided. Non-federal election years are especially important because of the low voter turnout. You're entitled to bitch if you don't vote, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously.
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Old 11-08-2005, 11:11 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Hey guys, inform an ignorant Canuck...

what are you voting on?
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Old 11-08-2005, 11:14 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cellophanedeity
Hey guys, inform an ignorant Canuck...

what are you voting on?
It varies from state to state, county to county, and school district to school district. But invariably something needs to be voted on. The only things up for consideration where I live are some city annexations--nothing from the state or school district.

Normally I do vote, but Oregon is vote-by-mail, and I didn't change my address with the elections office in time (I moved not too long ago). Given that there are no major issues to be considered...I don't feel so bad.
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Old 11-08-2005, 11:17 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cellophanedeity
Hey guys, inform an ignorant Canuck...

what are you voting on?
Well in cali, we are trying to stop the govenator to stop stealing money for our school, stop a law that would inform parents when thier daughter had an abortion and a few other things. I don't think I have time to vote tho. Too bad I didn't sign up...
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Old 11-08-2005, 11:24 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slyboots
Well in cali, we are trying to stop the govenator to stop stealing money for our school...
Damn skippy. He needs to be stopped before he can do any more damage. Shame on everyone who voted for him, despite I think it's everyone's God given right to vote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slyboots
...stop a law that would inform parents when thier daughter had an abortion...
Actually, I am not pro choice!!!! *gasps* Yes, depsite my strong leanings towards liberty and freedom, I do not believe that someone has the right to murder, and I will do everything in my voting power to prevent abortions (except under the most dire of circumstances). If you are under age and are not responsible enough to raise a child, don't have sex. If you do have sex, you must live with your responsibility: the child. Child birth is not like buying a new jacket. You can't just take it back.

You should have signed up, Slyboots, we need more informed voters.
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Old 11-08-2005, 11:50 AM   #19 (permalink)
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In australia we have to vote (or get fined) and they make voting day on Saturday so you should have no excuses for not voting. I hate that it cuts into your weekend as sometines the lines can be really long and the state/federal govnmt has not heard of postal voting (local has postal-very good for me as wife is slightly agoraphobic)!
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Old 11-08-2005, 11:51 AM   #20 (permalink)
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i voted!

Voting is good... if you want me to get into all the many reasons why it is important i can... but i'll just sum it up and say it's a positive thing.



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Old 11-08-2005, 12:08 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Hey, don't feel bad about not voting. I mean, it's not like people died so you'd have that right. There weren't marches, and campaigns, and suffering, and dying, so you could exercise the right to choose your representitives.

Oh wait, they did, and there were.

I admit, I'm feeling pretty self-rightous because I did vote today. I only took two, maybe three, total hours of reading time on the local county election board's site, and the League of Women Voter's guide, in the past two weeks to get informed. That's really a little time commitment for how important it is.

If you think you're driving change, or sending any kind of message to the establishment by not voting, I think you're deluding yourself.

All rationalizations aside, you didn't vote, and you can't complain.
Well, no, that's not strictly true.
You can bitch and moan all you want. knock yourself out.
However, since you've refused the chance to directly affect what happens, no one with any sense would listen to you do said bitching.

It's very simple.

Are representatives that you didn't vote for representing you, the non-voter? Yes, much like a shepard herds sheep, they are.

To an earlier comment :
You do, of course, have the right to complain about those you elected. You earned that right by fufilling your obligation to make a choice for them to represent you. By exercising that choice, you earn the right to bitch, complain, praise, etc.

Refusal to act is not a statement, it's not an act of defiance, it's a big nothing. It's a failure to do one of the few things your coutnry actually relys on you, the citizen, to do.

Your agreement is not required for the truth, to remain the truth.

******************************************************
Change of subject for our TFP members askin' "What up in the US today?"

In the great state of Ohio, I give you a recap:

There are five statewide issues on the November 8 ballot.
Full Summary of those issues here.


In the 2005 General Election, Ohio voters will also elect:
# Mayors
# Members of city and village councils
# Members of boards of trustees of public affairs (in some villages)
# Other city and village officers
# Judges of municipal courts (some jurisdictions)
# Clerks of municipal courts (some jurisdictions)
# Township trustees and clerks
# Members of boards of education
# Members of educational service center governing boards
# Unexpired terms for municipal and township offices and boards of education

Ohio's 88 counties also have a total 2,074 local questions and issues on the ballot.

Those local questions and issues cover lots of things. Like, "Can The Olive Garden Restaurant at this address sell alchohol?" All sorts of things, liqour sales hours, refuse contracts with cities, etc.
Depending on where you live, there's a lot, or few, of these "little" issues.
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Last edited by billege; 11-08-2005 at 12:28 PM..
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Old 11-08-2005, 12:30 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by politicophile
Voting "none of the above", or not voting at all, is never in one's interests because you are relinquishing your ability to influence which candidate is chosen. Since it's a sure thing that some candidate is going to be elected, it makes no sense not to vote for any of them. Everybody has a preference, even if that preference is a write-in, a third party candidate, the voter him/herself... We should make our preferences heard on every election day.
The other options you give also make me relinquish my ability to influence which candidate is chosen. What difference would it make if i voted for a write-in (lets say myself) than from not voting at all? Both methods show the candidates that i don't want to vote for them.

Also, unless i'm mistaken, it's not a sure thing that one of the candidates will be elected. Don't they need to have above a certain percentage of votes to win? If no candidate gets at or above that percentage then they have to re-run the election? I'm not sure about that, but that was my understanding. I can see how voting a write-in/3rd party would help in that instance, but a "none of the above" option would yield the same result, so it is a valid option that should be explored.


The choice of not voting is heard just as loudly as that single vote would be. Generalizing people who do not vote as "too lazy to vote" is a dangerous thing to do.


Quote:
In regards to the snide Constitution comment about free speech, I suggest you look at the first amendment and begin by reading the first five words, repeatedly if necessary. You have no constitutional right to free speech.
I am well aware what the wording is, and last i checked, there have been no new laws saying that i can't complain about my elected officials (be they from congress, or otherwise). My response may have seemed a little "snide", but it was just as "snide" as the remark it was meant to counter. No more, no less.

And the good folks at Cornell seem to disagree with you about there being no right to free speech: http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/first_amendment.html

Quote:
The First Amendment of the United States Constitution protects the right to freedom of religion and freedom of expression from government interference. See U.S. Const. amend. I. Freedom of expression consists of the rights to freedom of speech, press, assembly and to petition the government for a redress of grievances, and the implied rights of association and belief. The Supreme Court interprets the extent of the protection afforded to these rights. The First Amendment has been interpreted by the Court as applying to the entire federal government even though it is only expressly applicable to Congress. Furthermore, the Court has interpreted, the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment as protecting the rights in the First Amendment from interference by state governments. See U.S. Const. amend. XIV.
So it isnt just protection from congress, it is protection on the entire federal government level, *as well as* state government level. So while it says "Congress shall make no law" it goes far beyond congress. If you disagree you will need to take it up with the supreme court, because they say otherwise. *shrugs*

Quote:
And Jesus hates whiners.
Jesus loves everyone. For confirmation of that fact i suggest you begin by reading the new testament, repeatedly if necessary. I love you too, brother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n0nsensical
Furthermore, I still don't agree in any case because representatives are representatives of ALL citizens, not just the ones who voted, and everyone has the right to complain about who's representing them regardless of whether they voted for that person. Would you also say I don't have the right to complain about representatives I voted for because I voted for them? In my view, those statements are more or less equivalent.
^--- i agree ---^

And will use n0nsensical's quote to answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by politicophile
Complaining about the candidate who wins an election after one has neglected to fulfill one's duty of helping to select the winner is useless, futile, unnecessary whining.
(even though politicophile's quote may have been an answer to n0nsensical's quote (?), politicophile's statement is adequately countered by n0nsensical's)

Just because someone gets elected to office does not mean they are no longer answerable to the people they represent.. and the people they represent are not just those who voted for them, but everyone under their jurisdiction.

It is far from useless and futile to complain to/about your elected officials. If you don't complain, how do they know if they're doing a good job or not? How will anyone know if someone is worth re-electing?


Yea, there's the local stuff that needs voting That is worth the effort, because at the local level the individual vote actually carries weight.

I'm not saying for everyone to just not vote. I'm saying that if you feel that your vote will not do any good, and/or that you have no candidate to vote for.. and/or if none of those yes/no questions really apply to you.. then, why bother?


This post was probably confusing.. Its hard for me to put my feelings into words because there were so many angles to cover in this reply. My "button" was pushed, and my patience with this reply is running low.. maybe i'll come back and edit/repost once i've had time to order my thoughts, because they're flying allover the place right now. I'm not even sure why I'm going ahead with this post, but politicophile's post begged *some* reply.
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Old 11-08-2005, 12:31 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billege
Hey, don't feel bad about not voting. I mean, it's not like people died so you'd have that right. There weren't marches, and campaigns, and suffering, and dying, so you could exercise the right to choose your representitives.

Oh wait, they did, and there were.
People die for a lot of reasons.
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Old 11-08-2005, 05:58 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObieX
People die for a lot of reasons.
I would like to take this brief moment to thank the men and women who died so that I was able to cast a ballot today. I am very appreciative of the benefits I receive from living in a republic.

I guess if I haven't yet convinced the reader that voting is important... well, every time you don't vote, you increase the influence of my vote, so I'll stop complaining now...
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Old 11-08-2005, 06:06 PM   #25 (permalink)
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We have nothing to vote for here today, but on the 22nd we decide if it will be legal to sell beer in our small town on Sundays. That question made it to a ballot because it only took 44 signatures on a petition based on the piss poor turnout of voters in the last election. It is almost certain this will end up not allowing the Sunday beer sales. Yet everyone who I have heard limited opinions on wish to be able to buy beer on Sunday. Yet none of these people can look me in the eye and say they voted in the last election where there were more important questions and people running for offices that are supposed to represent them.
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Old 11-08-2005, 07:14 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by politicophile
I would like to take this brief moment to thank the men and women who died so that I was able to cast a ballot today. I am very appreciative of the benefits I receive from living in a republic.

I guess if I haven't yet convinced the reader that voting is important... well, every time you don't vote, you increase the influence of my vote, so I'll stop complaining now...


You didn't need to convince me of anything, not once did i say that voting was not important. You should reread my posts. I guess i didn't make myself clear.
I was simply stating that not voting can be just as powerful as voting, if not more-so. You, apparently, do not agree. You are free to do so.

P.S.
I'm sure the members of my family who fought and died for your freedom would appreciate your thanks.

Edit: removed a comment that wasn't worth the bullshit that it would recieve. The rest is ok tho.
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Last edited by ObieX; 11-08-2005 at 07:39 PM..
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Old 11-08-2005, 07:28 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Dad
We have nothing to vote for here today, but on the 22nd we decide if it will be legal to sell beer in our small town on Sundays. That question made it to a ballot because it only took 44 signatures on a petition based on the piss poor turnout of voters in the last election. It is almost certain this will end up not allowing the Sunday beer sales. Yet everyone who I have heard limited opinions on wish to be able to buy beer on Sunday. Yet none of these people can look me in the eye and say they voted in the last election where there were more important questions and people running for offices that are supposed to represent them.
What reason do they have to restrict the sale of alcohol on sunday?
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Old 11-08-2005, 07:47 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Obie, in my state they were called "Blue Laws" - I suspect "blue noses" might be part of the reference. Businesses could not open on the sabbath, and later businesses of ill repute such as the sale of demon alcohol.

Texas, by county, still has many blue laws including "wet" counties that won't sell beer on Sunday.
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Old 11-08-2005, 07:51 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I voted by mail last week. I would need to have been run over by a bus before I would fail to vote in any election.
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Old 11-08-2005, 08:05 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba
Obie, in my state they were called "Blue Laws" - I suspect "blue noses" might be part of the reference. Businesses could not open on the sabbath, and later businesses of ill repute such as the sale of demon alcohol.

Texas, by county, still has many blue laws including "wet" counties that won't sell beer on Sunday.
Hrm, thats walking a mighty fine line there.

http://www.answers.com/topic/blue-law

Quote:
Originally enacted to allow observation of Sunday as a Sabbath, blue laws have come under attack as violating the separation of church and state. The courts, however, have upheld most blue laws, on the basis that their observance has become secular and promotes Sunday as a day of rest and relaxation.
This confuses me even further. Why elimiante the ability to purchase legal relaxation/rest/enjoyment aides on a day of relaxation/rest. This "newly" secular nature of the day of rest should call for the allowance of such things, not the restriction.
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Old 11-08-2005, 08:16 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Why not start a new topic, Obie? We are way off the thread here.
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Old 11-08-2005, 09:08 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObieX
What reason do they have to restrict the sale of alcohol on sunday?
After the repeal of prohibition, Kansas did not allow such sales on Sunday. Recently Kansas enacted a change that would allow it IF the individual communities passed an ordinace allowing it. Our city leaders jumped on it and the church people were against it. Thus the petition. I would venture that the majority of the people in town are for it. However a majority of registered voters (or people willing to take the time to vote) are against it.

My point being (and to keep this on topic)... As long as there is rampant voter apathy, it is unlikey that the majority is going to get what they want.
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