MSD

Today is election day in the US. If you're registered and you haven't voted yet, please do so on your lunch break or after work. If you're not registered, please do so ASAP. If you're able but didn't, you have lost all right to complain about your elected officials.

Carno

I vote we kill all the dirty politicians!

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n0nsensical

I don't see how not voting is any worse than voting for candidates who are equally bad. That said, I will probably vote assuming they received my registration, but I strongly disagree with that statement.

politicophile

Bullshit. You and I both know that the candidates in any election you might be voting in are not equally bad. Even if no candidate perfectly represents your political standpoints, it is still your obligation to vote for the one you believe will be a superior elected official.

If, on the other hand, you fail to perform your civic duty, you forfeit your right to bitch about the guy/gal who gets elected. Your best opportunity to complain is inside the voting booth. You'll find me at the polls later this evening...

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The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

n0nsensical

You're the second person recently to begin a rebuttal with the phrase "You and I both know". As I said before, no, I don't, and I wouldn't post something I didn't believe as if I did. It may have been a general statement that doesn't apply to every. single. choice., but so was the statement I originally responded to, and yours. There are plenty of cases where, yes, I think the candidates are equally bad. Mainly those that are a choice between only a Democrat and a Republican, like 2004 California for U.S. Senate. (Remember, California Republicans are Republicans Lite, so they're not automatically the worst choice like they generally are for President) Even ignoring the parties, they can still be considered equally bad in many cases because politicians generally don't care at all about the issues I care most about, or at least don't even try to look like they care, or they care, but have exactly opposite views.

Furthermore, I still don't agree in any case because representatives are representatives of ALL citizens, not just the ones who voted, and everyone has the right to complain about who's representing them regardless of whether they voted for that person. Would you also say I don't have the right to complain about representatives I voted for because I voted for them? In my view, those statements are more or less equivalent.

skier

If you don't like either party, make your voice heard- vote for a third party representative! Oh geez, wasted vote. Well it is less wasted using your voting power to express dissatisfaction for both main parties rather than just not voting altogether and being lumped into a group seen as too lazy to vote.

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"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

billwood

I vote after Work every Election. I agree that some times the therd party vote is the best vote. Hear in "Caileforna" Arnold wants us to vote YES.. But I can't vote all yes .

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"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out,shouting",,,HOLY CRAP...WHAT A RIDE!".

ObieX

Until there is a "none of the above" option to express my dissatisfaction, not voting will remain the only option in certain situations.

And, I have the *right* to complain about anything i want, whenever I want. I wasn't aware the constitution was changed to say otherwise.

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We Must Dissent.

politicophile

Voting "none of the above", or not voting at all, is never in one's interests because you are relinquishing your ability to influence which candidate is chosen. Since it's a sure thing that some candidate is going to be elected, it makes no sense not to vote for any of them. Everybody has a preference, even if that preference is a write-in, a third party candidate, the voter him/herself... We should make our preferences heard on every election day.

In regards to the snide Constitution comment about free speech, I suggest you look at the first amendment and begin by reading the first five words, repeatedly if necessary. You have no constitutional right to free speech.

Furthermore, the statement about a "right to complain" is normative. Your ability to complain is not evidence for or against the veracity of the claim that you have a "right" to do so. Complaining about the candidate who wins an election after one has neglected to fulfill one's duty of helping to select the winner is useless, futile, unnecessary whining. And Jesus hates whiners.

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The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

highthief

What are you guys voting for this time? Governors, senators, what?

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mrklixx

Didn't Jesus turn whater into whine?

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flstf

You and I both know that that the election is fixed and the Democrat/Republican will surely win. Voting for one of them or wasting your vote on a third party candidate that has no chance gives the appearance that these elections are legitimate and open. Encouraging people to take part in these bogus elections helps to perpetuate them and nothing will change. I suggest we adopt a "None of the Above" vote and just stay away from them in protest. Just go and vote on the local bond issues, etc.

Willravel

If you're bored with the same old not voting argument and just want to get down to it, check out www.smartvoter.org for polling locations.

Edit:
BTW, I'm voting:
Yes on 73
No on 74-76
Yes on 77-79
No on 80

FngKestrel

It's not just about your elected officials. Measures and bills are also decided. Non-federal election years are especially important because of the low voter turnout. You're entitled to bitch if you don't vote, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

cellophanedeity

Hey guys, inform an ignorant Canuck...

what are you voting on?

snowy

It varies from state to state, county to county, and school district to school district. But invariably something needs to be voted on. The only things up for consideration where I live are some city annexations--nothing from the state or school district.

Normally I do vote, but Oregon is vote-by-mail, and I didn't change my address with the elections office in time (I moved not too long ago). Given that there are no major issues to be considered...I don't feel so bad.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Slyboots

Well in cali, we are trying to stop the govenator to stop stealing money for our school, stop a law that would inform parents when thier daughter had an abortion and a few other things. I don't think I have time to vote tho. Too bad I didn't sign up...

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Willravel

Damn skippy. He needs to be stopped before he can do any more damage. Shame on everyone who voted for him, despite I think it's everyone's God given right to vote.
Actually, I am not pro choice!!!! *gasps* Yes, depsite my strong leanings towards liberty and freedom, I do not believe that someone has the right to murder, and I will do everything in my voting power to prevent abortions (except under the most dire of circumstances). If you are under age and are not responsible enough to raise a child, don't have sex. If you do have sex, you must live with your responsibility: the child. Child birth is not like buying a new jacket. You can't just take it back.

You should have signed up, Slyboots, we need more informed voters.

ryfo

In australia we have to vote (or get fined) and they make voting day on Saturday so you should have no excuses for not voting. I hate that it cuts into your weekend as sometines the lines can be really long and the state/federal govnmt has not heard of postal voting (local has postal-very good for me as wife is slightly agoraphobic)!

Sweetpea

i voted!

Voting is good... if you want me to get into all the many reasons why it is important i can... but i'll just sum it up and say it's a positive thing.



Sweetpea

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billege

Hey, don't feel bad about not voting. I mean, it's not like people died so you'd have that right. There weren't marches, and campaigns, and suffering, and dying, so you could exercise the right to choose your representitives.

Oh wait, they did, and there were.

I admit, I'm feeling pretty self-rightous because I did vote today. I only took two, maybe three, total hours of reading time on the local county election board's site, and the League of Women Voter's guide, in the past two weeks to get informed. That's really a little time commitment for how important it is.

If you think you're driving change, or sending any kind of message to the establishment by not voting, I think you're deluding yourself.

All rationalizations aside, you didn't vote, and you can't complain.
Well, no, that's not strictly true.
You can bitch and moan all you want. knock yourself out.
However, since you've refused the chance to directly affect what happens, no one with any sense would listen to you do said bitching.

It's very simple.

Are representatives that you didn't vote for representing you, the non-voter? Yes, much like a shepard herds sheep, they are.

To an earlier comment :
You do, of course, have the right to complain about those you elected. You earned that right by fufilling your obligation to make a choice for them to represent you. By exercising that choice, you earn the right to bitch, complain, praise, etc.

Refusal to act is not a statement, it's not an act of defiance, it's a big nothing. It's a failure to do one of the few things your coutnry actually relys on you, the citizen, to do.

Your agreement is not required for the truth, to remain the truth.

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Change of subject for our TFP members askin' "What up in the US today?"

In the great state of Ohio, I give you a recap:

There are five statewide issues on the November 8 ballot.
Full Summary of those issues here.


In the 2005 General Election, Ohio voters will also elect:
# Mayors
# Members of city and village councils
# Members of boards of trustees of public affairs (in some villages)
# Other city and village officers
# Judges of municipal courts (some jurisdictions)
# Clerks of municipal courts (some jurisdictions)
# Township trustees and clerks
# Members of boards of education
# Members of educational service center governing boards
# Unexpired terms for municipal and township offices and boards of education

Ohio's 88 counties also have a total 2,074 local questions and issues on the ballot.

Those local questions and issues cover lots of things. Like, "Can The Olive Garden Restaurant at this address sell alchohol?" All sorts of things, liqour sales hours, refuse contracts with cities, etc.
Depending on where you live, there's a lot, or few, of these "little" issues.

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"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

ObieX

The other options you give also make me relinquish my ability to influence which candidate is chosen. What difference would it make if i voted for a write-in (lets say myself) than from not voting at all? Both methods show the candidates that i don't want to vote for them.

Also, unless i'm mistaken, it's not a sure thing that one of the candidates will be elected. Don't they need to have above a certain percentage of votes to win? If no candidate gets at or above that percentage then they have to re-run the election? I'm not sure about that, but that was my understanding. I can see how voting a write-in/3rd party would help in that instance, but a "none of the above" option would yield the same result, so it is a valid option that should be explored.


The choice of not voting is heard just as loudly as that single vote would be. Generalizing people who do not vote as "too lazy to vote" is a dangerous thing to do.


I am well aware what the wording is, and last i checked, there have been no new laws saying that i can't complain about my elected officials (be they from congress, or otherwise). My response may have seemed a little "snide", but it was just as "snide" as the remark it was meant to counter. No more, no less.

And the good folks at Cornell seem to disagree with you about there being no right to free speech: http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/first_amendment.html

So it isnt just protection from congress, it is protection on the entire federal government level, *as well as* state government level. So while it says "Congress shall make no law" it goes far beyond congress. If you disagree you will need to take it up with the supreme court, because they say otherwise. *shrugs*

Jesus loves everyone. For confirmation of that fact i suggest you begin by reading the new testament, repeatedly if necessary. I love you too, brother.

^--- i agree ---^

And will use n0nsensical's quote to answer:
(even though politicophile's quote may have been an answer to n0nsensical's quote (?), politicophile's statement is adequately countered by n0nsensical's)

Just because someone gets elected to office does not mean they are no longer answerable to the people they represent.. and the people they represent are not just those who voted for them, but everyone under their jurisdiction.

It is far from useless and futile to complain to/about your elected officials. If you don't complain, how do they know if they're doing a good job or not? How will anyone know if someone is worth re-electing?


Yea, there's the local stuff that needs voting That is worth the effort, because at the local level the individual vote actually carries weight.

I'm not saying for everyone to just not vote. I'm saying that if you feel that your vote will not do any good, and/or that you have no candidate to vote for.. and/or if none of those yes/no questions really apply to you.. then, why bother?


This post was probably confusing.. Its hard for me to put my feelings into words because there were so many angles to cover in this reply. My "button" was pushed, and my patience with this reply is running low.. maybe i'll come back and edit/repost once i've had time to order my thoughts, because they're flying allover the place right now. I'm not even sure why I'm going ahead with this post, but politicophile's post begged *some* reply.

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We Must Dissent.

ObieX

People die for a lot of reasons.

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We Must Dissent.

politicophile

I would like to take this brief moment to thank the men and women who died so that I was able to cast a ballot today. I am very appreciative of the benefits I receive from living in a republic.

I guess if I haven't yet convinced the reader that voting is important... well, every time you don't vote, you increase the influence of my vote, so I'll stop complaining now...

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The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

Psycho Dad

We have nothing to vote for here today, but on the 22nd we decide if it will be legal to sell beer in our small town on Sundays. That question made it to a ballot because it only took 44 signatures on a petition based on the piss poor turnout of voters in the last election. It is almost certain this will end up not allowing the Sunday beer sales. Yet everyone who I have heard limited opinions on wish to be able to buy beer on Sunday. Yet none of these people can look me in the eye and say they voted in the last election where there were more important questions and people running for offices that are supposed to represent them.

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ObieX

You didn't need to convince me of anything, not once did i say that voting was not important. You should reread my posts. I guess i didn't make myself clear.
I was simply stating that not voting can be just as powerful as voting, if not more-so. You, apparently, do not agree. You are free to do so.

P.S.
I'm sure the members of my family who fought and died for your freedom would appreciate your thanks.

Edit: removed a comment that wasn't worth the bullshit that it would recieve. The rest is ok tho.

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We Must Dissent.

ObieX

What reason do they have to restrict the sale of alcohol on sunday?

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We Must Dissent.

Elphaba

Obie, in my state they were called "Blue Laws" - I suspect "blue noses" might be part of the reference. Businesses could not open on the sabbath, and later businesses of ill repute such as the sale of demon alcohol.

Texas, by county, still has many blue laws including "wet" counties that won't sell beer on Sunday.

Elphaba

I voted by mail last week. I would need to have been run over by a bus before I would fail to vote in any election.

ObieX

Hrm, thats walking a mighty fine line there.

http://www.answers.com/topic/blue-law

This confuses me even further. Why elimiante the ability to purchase legal relaxation/rest/enjoyment aides on a day of relaxation/rest. This "newly" secular nature of the day of rest should call for the allowance of such things, not the restriction.

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We Must Dissent.

Elphaba

Why not start a new topic, Obie? We are way off the thread here.

Psycho Dad

After the repeal of prohibition, Kansas did not allow such sales on Sunday. Recently Kansas enacted a change that would allow it IF the individual communities passed an ordinace allowing it. Our city leaders jumped on it and the church people were against it. Thus the petition. I would venture that the majority of the people in town are for it. However a majority of registered voters (or people willing to take the time to vote) are against it.

My point being (and to keep this on topic)... As long as there is rampant voter apathy, it is unlikey that the majority is going to get what they want.

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Don't always trust the opinions of experts.