Extreme Body Modding = Art or Scary Attention Seeking? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

10-03-2005, 09:19 AM

OK, I've just seen some worrying pictures of a gentleman who's voluntarily undergone a non-vital surgical procedure called a subcision. The results are not pretty by anyone's standards. I would post links, but don't want to upset anyone. If you must look, then do a Google image search (that's what I did)

Anyway, with this in mind, and bearing in mind that I'm generally a pretty easy going and liberal minded kind of guy, I have to honestly admit here that I just don't get it - at all. I can't think of any reason why I'd want to do this to myself, nor can I understand what it is about these things that is appealing to others.

So, I've tried to come up with the most often used reasons, and respectfully ask that people try and explain it to me. Because right now, it looks to me as though people are doing it for really scary fucked up reasons. I don't want to be a grumpy old bigot in this respect and I want to be convinced otherwise.

So what, exactly is it all about?

I don't mean to upset or put the spot on anyone, and I respect anyone's wishes to do whatever they want to themselves - I just don't understand it. And right now, I'll be honest, it looks like its a kind of scary, nut-job, "please stay away from my kids" kind of thing to do.

Charlatan · 10-03-2005, 09:32 AM

On the physical side... apparently the opening of the ureathra exposes more nerve endings making sex that much more pleasurable.

That said, I too, find this a tad over the top (and I've had genital piercings for about 14 years) BUT there is historical precident.
From your link...

Quote:

Cultural traditions
Subincision (like circumcision) is widespread in Aboriginal Australia, and is well documented in cultures of the central desert such as the Aranda and Luritja peoples. The Aranda word for subincision is arilta, and occurs as a rite of passage ritual for adolescent boys. It was gifted to the Aranda by Mangar-kunjer-kujaIt, a lizard-man spirit being from the dreamtime. A subincised penis is thought to resemble a vulva, and the bleeding is likened to menstruation.

This type of modification of the penis was also traditionally performed by the Lardil tribe from Mornington Island in Queensland. The young men who chose to endure this custom would be the only ones to learn a complex ceremonial language, Damin, which is the only known non-African language with click consonants. In later ceremonies, repeated throughout adult life, the subincised penis would be used as a site for ritual bloodletting. According to Ken Hale, who studied Damin, no ritual initiations have been carried out in the Gulf of Carpentaria for half a century, and hence, this language has also died out.

Indigenous cultures of the Amazon Basin also practise subincision, as do Samburu herdboys of Kenya, who are said to perform subinicisions on themselves (or sometimes their peers) at age 7 to 10. In Samoa, subincision is traditionally a coming-of-age ritual. In Hawai'i, subincision of the foreskin is reported to have been performed at age 6 or 7.

I am just not sure how I feel about cultural appropriation... Not that I'm going to get that bent out of shape about it if someone decides to take part in this act, it's just that it raises some questions for me.

JumpinJesus · 10-03-2005, 09:33 AM

You're right, some of those images are quite disturbing to say the least. As to why someone would engage in this extreme form of body modification...I'm of the mind that there are many many different reasons.

Those reasons could range from wishing to experience various types of cultural practices to self-hate. I'm sure there are those who do it for the shock value as well, desiring to get some form of averse reaction from others. I also tend to believe that it's also a form of masochism where the people who do this receive some form of rush from the pain they experience. If you google "subincision" you will see that there are those who engage in self-amputation as a means of body modification.

While I would never go so far as to modify my body through any of those means, I can't condemn those who do so for religious or cultural reasons. However, those who do so out of self-hate need help. These kinds of modifications are permanent and I sometimes wonder how well thought-out self-amputation really is. As far as subincision of the penis, it doesn't seem like a very sanitary thing to do. I could be wrong, though.

Interesting topic, either way.

bermuDa · 10-03-2005, 09:46 AM

I recommend checking out The Spiritual Tattoo, it covers the history of body modification and the various reasons why some people go through it.

The author of that book is a cultural anthropologist and he is covering his torso with a history of religion. To him, his tattoos are very personal, and so none of them extend below his knees or past his shoulders, so they are covered by his clothes. I think those people who get body mods to actually look scary are in the minority; nowadays it seems to me to be a statement of individuality or conformity in some form or another, the reasons for getting a tattoo are varied from person to person (for me, the reasons not to get one eventually outweighed my desire to get inked).

Confederate · 10-03-2005, 03:07 PM

I think of it like this...
If they do it for themselves, it's art.
If they do it because of what other people think and for their reactions, then it's solely for attention.
It can be both.

ngdawg · 10-03-2005, 03:35 PM

During an artshow recently, a young, rather nice looking guy was strolling around, striking up conversations. He considered himself a piece of art-the reality was he was destroying himself one mod at a time. His cheeks, brows, nose, chin, tongue, lips and whatever else one could think of to be visible, was pierced with multiple rods and rings. He spoke of getting his tongue split and more piercings. His quest? To get in the Guiness book.....

Cultural body-altering rituals are based in hundreds of years of history, in turn based on some superstitions. As traditional or cultural body modification dies for a number of reasons, it seems that modern civilization thinks it'd be 'cool' to bring some of it back. But every time I see some kid with huge-gauged rings through his/her ears or a barbell through their tongue, I can't help but think "they're gonna regret that in 10-20 years"(of course I have no way of knowing that for sure, but the vision of my cousin's old mother-in-law with earlobes hanging to her shoulders with holes I could put 3 fingers through pops up).
Interesting essay about just this topic: Link
A new and disturbing tourist attraction has appeared on the troubled border between Burma and Thailand. Ma Nang has been winding brass rings onto the necks of young Padaung women for 34 years. Mostly she has worked in Burma, but for the last five years she has lived in one of two ‘tourist villages’ in Mae Hong Son province, Thailand.

There are many refugee camps along the Thai-Burmese border. Since 1962 an estimated 1.5 million people have fled the oppression of Burma’s military dictatorship. The Thai Government has been a reluctant host to many of them.

But the Padaung were actively encouraged to cross the border. The Thais benefit from the extra income generated by the influx of tourists to the region. At the ‘tourist villages’ there is an entrance fee. The Padaung women receive some of the revenue but most is taken by Karens, of whom the Padaung are a sub-group. The money helps pay for the struggle against the Burmese Government.

Traditionally the Padaung women wear brass neck-rings which give the appearance of elongating the wearer’s neck (in fact they depress the collarbone). The neck-rings can be removed, but the weakened neck muscles are unable to support the weight of the head – to do so without help would result in the windpipe being crushed.

Inside Burma the tradition has been dying. Women would even cross into Thailand to have the rings removed in hospital, where they would need to wait months for their necks to recover. Now, due to the ‘tourist villages’, the practice has been given an extended lease of life.

Ma Nang explained a significant change in the application of the rings since her arrival in Thailand. In Burma a girl child wears her first rings, weighing one kilo, at the age of five. Two more rings are added at 10 and 15 and another two before the age of 20, to make a total of five.

This process takes too long to sustain the main attraction to the ‘tourist villages’. So the process has been speeded up – the first ring worn at the age of five, the second at eight, the third at 13 and the final two by the time the girl is 15.

Inside the camps the women sit at the front of their wooden huts making bracelets, woven bags and dolls to sell to tourists, stopping to pose for the cameras. When asked about the tedium of her life Ma Nang says: ‘What do you do? I’m sure your work too must be boring sometimes. This is just the same – a job to earn money.’

Even so, other Padaung women have opted to live in the harsher conditions of the regular Karen refugee camps rather than submit to this practice.

theguyondacouch · 10-03-2005, 05:20 PM

I think it can be a touch of both. What you describe is a rather personal mod, so I don't know about it being for attention. When was the last time you saw someone walking around with their cock flapping in the breeze? It may not be a case of art or attention seeking for that matter, they may just like the way it looks and or feels.

meembo · 10-03-2005, 05:53 PM

In my culture in the United States, I can't see the upside of doing this type of mutilation. There are many things that are within our rights that are otherwise nutty to even consider doing or saying, especially when the consequences and permanancy of the act aren't fully considered. God bless them -- it's not for me.

Ganggreen · 10-03-2005, 06:24 PM

you can do whatever you want in this country, thats the beauty of it. but cut your johnsosn open?!!?!? why the hell would you WANT to do that?

Irishsean · 10-04-2005, 04:17 AM

To each their own.

Personal freedom and all that.

I have a few friends that have it done, one reason I've heard is that it feels amazing. The tissue surface of the urethra is very sensitive and opening it up exposes more surface area to feeling during sex.

I know of at least one TFPer to have it done, but he's out of town at the moment. I'll try and point him here when he gets back.

10-04-2005, 06:15 AM

Yes, personal freedoms - I have the personal freedom to chop my own leg off if I want to, or I could push coins up my nose for that extra special feeling of having coins up my nose. And yes, people would have to 'respect' my personal freedom to express myself by drilling a hole in my head, to feel the amazing sensation of the wind against my brain. But I don't do any of those things - and I don't understand why anyone would go to such lengths in order to feel a particular sensation - but is there more to it than that, or not? Is there a point where my personal freedom to hurt myself is over-ridden and I'm sent to a psychiatric hospital for treatment? What do I have to do for someone to rightfully step in and stop me from injuring myself?

These are the reasons I've come up with so far as to why someone might want to do this:
Sensation
Vanity
A desire to be 'Different'
A desire to be 'the same' / in a clique / peer pressure
Endorphin/Adrenaline addiction
Cultural reasons/Tradition

Yeah, I'd love to hear from people who've done this, and really get down to the precise reasons why they did it.

Blaise · 10-04-2005, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theguyondacouch

What you describe is a rather personal mod, so I don't know about it being for attention. When was the last time you saw someone walking around with their cock flapping in the breeze?

That's exactly what I thought. I do agree that there probably are people who get modifications to shock, whether it's getting as many visible piercings as possible, or something as odd as possible to impress people with, but I doubt he runs around nude or uses it as a conversation starter ("Hi, I'm Dave and I've got a split cock.."

)

If no one else has linked to it yet, BME has a great deal about extreme modifications and why people do it.

10-03-2005, 09:19 AM	#1 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	Extreme Body Modding = Art or Scary Attention Seeking? OK, I've just seen some worrying pictures of a gentleman who's voluntarily undergone a non-vital surgical procedure called a subcision. The results are not pretty by anyone's standards. I would post links, but don't want to upset anyone. If you must look, then do a Google image search (that's what I did) Anyway, with this in mind, and bearing in mind that I'm generally a pretty easy going and liberal minded kind of guy, I have to honestly admit here that I just don't get it - at all. I can't think of any reason why I'd want to do this to myself, nor can I understand what it is about these things that is appealing to others. So, I've tried to come up with the most often used reasons, and respectfully ask that people try and explain it to me. Because right now, it looks to me as though people are doing it for really scary fucked up reasons. I don't want to be a grumpy old bigot in this respect and I want to be convinced otherwise. So what, exactly is it all about? I don't mean to upset or put the spot on anyone, and I respect anyone's wishes to do whatever they want to themselves - I just don't understand it. And right now, I'll be honest, it looks like its a kind of scary, nut-job, "please stay away from my kids" kind of thing to do.

10-03-2005, 09:33 AM	#3 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	You're right, some of those images are quite disturbing to say the least. As to why someone would engage in this extreme form of body modification...I'm of the mind that there are many many different reasons. Those reasons could range from wishing to experience various types of cultural practices to self-hate. I'm sure there are those who do it for the shock value as well, desiring to get some form of averse reaction from others. I also tend to believe that it's also a form of masochism where the people who do this receive some form of rush from the pain they experience. If you google "subincision" you will see that there are those who engage in self-amputation as a means of body modification. While I would never go so far as to modify my body through any of those means, I can't condemn those who do so for religious or cultural reasons. However, those who do so out of self-hate need help. These kinds of modifications are permanent and I sometimes wonder how well thought-out self-amputation really is. As far as subincision of the penis, it doesn't seem like a very sanitary thing to do. I could be wrong, though. Interesting topic, either way. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

10-03-2005, 09:46 AM	#4 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	I recommend checking out The Spiritual Tattoo, it covers the history of body modification and the various reasons why some people go through it. The author of that book is a cultural anthropologist and he is covering his torso with a history of religion. To him, his tattoos are very personal, and so none of them extend below his knees or past his shoulders, so they are covered by his clothes. I think those people who get body mods to actually look scary are in the minority; nowadays it seems to me to be a statement of individuality or conformity in some form or another, the reasons for getting a tattoo are varied from person to person (for me, the reasons not to get one eventually outweighed my desire to get inked). __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

10-03-2005, 03:35 PM	#6 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	During an artshow recently, a young, rather nice looking guy was strolling around, striking up conversations. He considered himself a piece of art-the reality was he was destroying himself one mod at a time. His cheeks, brows, nose, chin, tongue, lips and whatever else one could think of to be visible, was pierced with multiple rods and rings. He spoke of getting his tongue split and more piercings. His quest? To get in the Guiness book..... Cultural body-altering rituals are based in hundreds of years of history, in turn based on some superstitions. As traditional or cultural body modification dies for a number of reasons, it seems that modern civilization thinks it'd be 'cool' to bring some of it back. But every time I see some kid with huge-gauged rings through his/her ears or a barbell through their tongue, I can't help but think "they're gonna regret that in 10-20 years"(of course I have no way of knowing that for sure, but the vision of my cousin's old mother-in-law with earlobes hanging to her shoulders with holes I could put 3 fingers through pops up). Interesting essay about just this topic: Link A new and disturbing tourist attraction has appeared on the troubled border between Burma and Thailand. Ma Nang has been winding brass rings onto the necks of young Padaung women for 34 years. Mostly she has worked in Burma, but for the last five years she has lived in one of two ‘tourist villages’ in Mae Hong Son province, Thailand. There are many refugee camps along the Thai-Burmese border. Since 1962 an estimated 1.5 million people have fled the oppression of Burma’s military dictatorship. The Thai Government has been a reluctant host to many of them. But the Padaung were actively encouraged to cross the border. The Thais benefit from the extra income generated by the influx of tourists to the region. At the ‘tourist villages’ there is an entrance fee. The Padaung women receive some of the revenue but most is taken by Karens, of whom the Padaung are a sub-group. The money helps pay for the struggle against the Burmese Government. Traditionally the Padaung women wear brass neck-rings which give the appearance of elongating the wearer’s neck (in fact they depress the collarbone). The neck-rings can be removed, but the weakened neck muscles are unable to support the weight of the head – to do so without help would result in the windpipe being crushed. Inside Burma the tradition has been dying. Women would even cross into Thailand to have the rings removed in hospital, where they would need to wait months for their necks to recover. Now, due to the ‘tourist villages’, the practice has been given an extended lease of life. Ma Nang explained a significant change in the application of the rings since her arrival in Thailand. In Burma a girl child wears her first rings, weighing one kilo, at the age of five. Two more rings are added at 10 and 15 and another two before the age of 20, to make a total of five. This process takes too long to sustain the main attraction to the ‘tourist villages’. So the process has been speeded up – the first ring worn at the age of five, the second at eight, the third at 13 and the final two by the time the girl is 15. Inside the camps the women sit at the front of their wooden huts making bracelets, woven bags and dolls to sell to tourists, stopping to pose for the cameras. When asked about the tedium of her life Ma Nang says: ‘What do you do? I’m sure your work too must be boring sometimes. This is just the same – a job to earn money.’ Even so, other Padaung women have opted to live in the harsher conditions of the regular Karen refugee camps rather than submit to this practice. __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

10-03-2005, 05:20 PM	#7 (permalink)
theguyondacouch salmon? Location: Outside Providence	I think it can be a touch of both. What you describe is a rather personal mod, so I don't know about it being for attention. When was the last time you saw someone walking around with their cock flapping in the breeze? It may not be a case of art or attention seeking for that matter, they may just like the way it looks and or feels. __________________ "Lick my frozen metal ass!"

10-03-2005, 03:07 PM	#5 (permalink)
Confederate Death Leprechaun Location: College Station, TX	I think of it like this... If they do it for themselves, it's art. If they do it because of what other people think and for their reactions, then it's solely for attention. It can be both.

10-03-2005, 05:53 PM	#8 (permalink)
meembo Junkie Location: Connecticut	In my culture in the United States, I can't see the upside of doing this type of mutilation. There are many things that are within our rights that are otherwise nutty to even consider doing or saying, especially when the consequences and permanancy of the act aren't fully considered. God bless them -- it's not for me. __________________ less I say, smarter I am

10-03-2005, 06:24 PM	#9 (permalink)
Ganggreen Tilted	you can do whatever you want in this country, thats the beauty of it. but cut your johnsosn open?!!?!? why the hell would you WANT to do that?

10-04-2005, 04:17 AM	#10 (permalink)
Irishsean edited for content Location: Austin, TX	To each their own. Personal freedom and all that. I have a few friends that have it done, one reason I've heard is that it feels amazing. The tissue surface of the urethra is very sensitive and opening it up exposes more surface area to feeling during sex. I know of at least one TFPer to have it done, but he's out of town at the moment. I'll try and point him here when he gets back. __________________ There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances. Leon Trotsky

10-04-2005, 06:15 AM	#11 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	Yes, personal freedoms - I have the personal freedom to chop my own leg off if I want to, or I could push coins up my nose for that extra special feeling of having coins up my nose. And yes, people would have to 'respect' my personal freedom to express myself by drilling a hole in my head, to feel the amazing sensation of the wind against my brain. But I don't do any of those things - and I don't understand why anyone would go to such lengths in order to feel a particular sensation - but is there more to it than that, or not? Is there a point where my personal freedom to hurt myself is over-ridden and I'm sent to a psychiatric hospital for treatment? What do I have to do for someone to rightfully step in and stop me from injuring myself? These are the reasons I've come up with so far as to why someone might want to do this: Sensation Vanity A desire to be 'Different' A desire to be 'the same' / in a clique / peer pressure Endorphin/Adrenaline addiction Cultural reasons/Tradition Yeah, I'd love to hear from people who've done this, and really get down to the precise reasons why they did it.