Protect Your Kids from the Pentagon - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Sweetpea · 09-02-2005, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Buried deep within the No Child Left Behind Act is a provision that requires public high schools to hand over students' private contact information to military recruiters. If a school does not comply, it risks losing vital federal education funds. As if that weren't bad enough, the Pentagon has now built an illegal database of 30 million 16 to 25-year-olds as another recruitment tool.

What can you do??

Action 1: Protect our Children - "Opt Them Out!"

Sojourners is partnering with Working Assets and others in The Leave My Child Alone Coalition to make it easy to protect children from unwanted military recruiting by getting their names off both Pentagon and high school recruiting lists.

»Click on this link to opt out your child
http://www.leavemychildalone.org/ind...3&mktcode=SOJO

Action 2: Host a Back-To-School Event

Because most high schools turn over their student lists to military recruiters in October, it's imperative that we get as many kids as possible "opted out" during the month of September. Parents, teachers, grandparents, and concerned citizens are planning Leave My Child Alone back-to-school events from September 7 to 30. It's easy to host an event at your home, church, or local coffee shop - we provide you with the forms and information you need, plus a FREE DVD (http://www.leavemychildalone.org/DVD) on opting out, featuring Cindy Sheehan and former recruiter Jim Massey.

»Click on the below link to register an event now and help local families opt out! Consider making "Opt Out" the subject of a religious education class, youth group gathering, book club, or other community activity you already participate in.
http://www.partylaunch.com/workingassets/

Action 3: Pass it on

Most parents don't even know about the need to opt out. Please pass this information onto parents, grandparents, and teachers you know. Tell them to visit LeaveMyChildAlone.org for more information and all the forms needed to opt out.

http://www.leavemychildalone.org/ind...3&mktcode=SOJO

I wasn't aware of this. If i was a parent, i would be opting my child out right now.

Trisk · 09-02-2005, 03:40 PM

While I agree that this is somewhat alarming information and I would prefer to not have my child's information given to the government like that if I had a kid, I'm not really suprised.
The government and tons of other organizations out there have way more information than we would suspect or give them credit for. Even if we could stop the government from getting information about our kids from schools (which is doubtful. I'm sure there are other ways to find that information, should they need it...and ways to keep track of the information, even if they claim it has been deleted from their databases), it would hardly make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

Besides, even if the military recruiters have more information about your individual kid, knowing their contact information isn't going to make them force your kid into the army. The only thing that could force your kid to join would be a draft....and that would go into effect and send your kid away whether or not the military recruiters had your child's contact information.

Salomon · 09-02-2005, 03:51 PM

You say this as if military service is an outrage or an embarrasement. A lot of really decent people enter the military, believe it or not. And last I checked, there was no draft.

theguyondacouch · 09-02-2005, 04:05 PM

While I do blieve it is unethical to give out their contact info without their permission, just because a recruiter has your info doesn't mean you are going to be forced into the army. The most they can do is call you every once in a while and hassle you. While I do understand how some people could be upset about this, I don't think it deserves parties and such.

Sweetpea · 09-02-2005, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salomon

You say this as if military service is an outrage or an embarrasement. A lot of really decent people enter the military, believe it or not. And last I checked, there was no draft.

I wasn't implying that Military service was negative. With three people in my family currently serving, i think it's an important and worthy cause to be in the military.

I was merely putting the information in the OP out to let people make that decision for themselves how they feel about it.

thanks,

Sweetpea

analog · 09-02-2005, 04:51 PM

Doesn't surprise me. Regardless, if any of them ever go to college and want federal student aid, the first thing you have to do is register with the selective service department, which gives them your info anyway... that is, if registering with selective service isn't required at 18 by your state anyway.

Lebell · 09-02-2005, 05:00 PM

Last time I checked, one of the major functions of the government was to protect the nation.

To do that, they need soldiers.

Unless we return to the draft, we need volunteers.

This action meerly increases the rate of volunteers.

So in the end, this is a good thing.

At least, that's my take on it.

StanT · 09-02-2005, 05:10 PM

I see this as giving personal contact information for a minor without their parents consent.

That would be a bad thing.

Once they are 18, they are fair game.

meembo · 09-02-2005, 06:16 PM

I've given fake addresses for years. I give my address as a parent, but I list my children's address as some fake address, and I have nothing to complain about. In this age of divorced parents and such, their real address is never scrutinized.

Elphaba · 09-02-2005, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StanT

I see this as giving personal contact information for a minor without their parents consent.

That would be a bad thing.

Once they are 18, they are fair game.

I agree completely. Targeting teens without parental consent should not be allowed. At the very least student informaton should be an opt-in, not an opt-out.

Stompy · 09-02-2005, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

Last time I checked, one of the major functions of the government was to protect the nation.

To do that, they need soldiers.

Unless we return to the draft, we need volunteers.

This action meerly increases the rate of volunteers.

So in the end, this is a good thing.

At least, that's my take on it.

Um, volunteer means ... they, using their own free will and choice, sign up.. not being solicited and lied to in an attempt to lure kids into becoming soldiers. It's pretty shameful.

...and yes, they do lie to you to try and get you to sign up. "Here's a photo album of all the awesome places I saw during my time! *shows all kinds of photos that look Vacationish*" Meanwhile.. your kid signs up and is shipped to Iraq. Yeah, I'm sure they're enjoying that one...

As parents, it's their responsibility to warn their kids about this so they aren't duped into something they'll later regret.

Given the current state of affairs in the world, and how our troops aren't being used to protect us, I don't blame the parents for bein pissed off. I wouldn't want my kid dying for a cause that has nothing to do with us (Iraq).

Marvelous Marv · 09-02-2005, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

Doesn't surprise me. Regardless, if any of them ever go to college and want federal student aid, the first thing you have to do is register with the selective service department, which gives them your info anyway... that is, if registering with selective service isn't required at 18 by your state anyway.

Federal law requires males to register with the selective service at age 18.

Now if you want to get me started on why FEMALES aren't required to ...

Marvelous Marv · 09-02-2005, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meembo

I've given fake addresses for years. I give my address as a parent, but I list my children's address as some fake address, and I have nothing to complain about. In this age of divorced parents and such, their real address is never scrutinized.

You might want to be a little careful about that. In the better school systems, they require proof that you live within the district.

This could conceivably start another discussion about school vouchers.

Marvelous Marv · 09-02-2005, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

...and yes, they do lie to you to try and get you to sign up. "Here's a photo album of all the awesome places I saw during my time! *shows all kinds of photos that look Vacationish*" Meanwhile.. your kid signs up and is shipped to Iraq. Yeah, I'm sure they're enjoying that one...

As parents, it's their responsibility to warn their kids about this so they aren't duped into something they'll later regret.

Is it too much to ask you for a little proof of this statement?

Salomon · 09-02-2005, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StanT

I see this as giving personal contact information for a minor without their parents consent.

That would be a bad thing.

Once they are 18, they are fair game.

Respectfully, I don't buy this at all. Kids -- human beings -- are demographically targeted FROM BIRTH, be it: marketing aimed at a family with 2 young kids, a single mom with daughter, the audience for themeparks, waterparks, toystores, vacation resorts, movies, clothing, food (juice BOXES?!?) etc etc etc).

Why shouldn't the government do it for it's own reasons? And not such negative reasons, at that.

This is Life in 2005.

Bill O'Rights · 09-02-2005, 09:56 PM

High schools have always given out that information. It has nothing to do with NCLB. This was common practice 25-30 years ago. I enlisted in the U.S. Air Force after high school, and served for eight years. Which, by the way, I happen to be very proud of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

...and yes, they do lie to you to try and get you to sign up.

Damn...let me help you pick up that broad paintbrush...it must be heavy. Yes, some recruiters are unscrupulous, and lie, and deceive. Not all. To assume that they do is, to say the very least, exhibiting very narrow thinking.

Believe it or not, there are a lot of people out there that want to serve. And to put it bluntly, I'm growing extremely weary of people looking down their noses at those that did, do, and want to serve in this nations armed forces.

Vincentt · 09-03-2005, 04:37 AM

Recruiter at my sisters high school told her that her and her friends could all serve together. And could choose to not be sent out of the country...

I'm going to find it hard to trust based on that.

In high school they just told me it would pay for all my education, and allow me to "get any job you want" after I was out.

Pragma · 09-03-2005, 05:29 AM

As Bill O'Rights said: yes, some recruiters will lie to get people to sign up. It's not a great job to get stuck with and lots of people aren't happy as recruiters and just want to get quotas. However, there are also a lot of really good recruiters out there.

As to the highschools giving out the information to the recruiters - I don't see anything wrong with that. So the kids will get a phone call and if they really aren't interested, I don't imagine that the recruiter would call them back. If they're wishy-washy on the phone, then sure - the recruiter would probably try to talk them into it, but if they absolutely aren't interested, then I can't imagine the recruiter wasting his time.

Grasshopper Green · 09-03-2005, 06:18 AM

/threadjack

When my husband joined, his recruiter was pretty much truthful. He played up certain aspects, like traveling the world, but he didn't lie and say he'd get any job he wanted when he got out, that he could definitely serve with his best friend (who joined at the same time, they were sent to separate bases), or that if I joined (I thought about it for awhile) that we would definitely be stationed together if we married. The traveling thing wasn't even that exaggerated; hubby has been to some fantastic places that I will probably never see. His military experience was for the most part, a very good thing.
/end threadjack

As far as opting out, I can understand wanting to opt out underage children, but since Selective Service is mandatory and not optional, once a man hits 18, he'll most likely be contacted anyway. I guess it can prevent "pestering" for a couple years at best.

Stompy · 09-03-2005, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

Is it too much to ask you for a little proof of this statement?

Oh boy, here we go... honestly now, hahaha, what proof do you need? Want me to carry a video recorder around and attempt to sign up and show you how the process works? Want me to send you links to websites that you'll immediately discredit? Not gonna waste my time - use common sense.

I mean seriously, it's kinda well known that these people lie... I'm not sure why people are acting like they don't. No, not ALL of them lie, just like not ALL lawyers are bad, but there's certainly a good amount - high enough to where you should be worried.

Recruiters are pests and will say just about anything you wanna hear to get you to sign up. I personally experienced it and my friends did too.

They called me up trying to get me to join, and I told them, "look, I know you're just doing what you're told, but I really don't need to waste my life with this stuff. I already have a career as a computer programmer and things are going great for me, why in the world would I drop all of that and risk what I have going for me?" (I was 18 at the time, just before grad).. the recruiter quickly proceeded to into the "well if you just come down here and sign, we can discuss the details and work out a plan for you!"

Right, he must thing I'm fuckin stupid.

You aren't guaranteed a position in the military. You know this, I know this. The thing was, I was actually considering it for a while as long as I was guranteed that programming assignment, but my grandpa and uncle, who both served, talked me out of it.

That was the best thing they ever did, because I would've completely wasted my talent and missed out on establishing and securing my future at such a young age.

Keep in mind I'm also 24. Maybe they didn't do this so much back when most of you were in high school, but it is WELL known, at least around here, that military recruiters are scum that will do just about anything to try and sucker you into signing up.

In fact, someone I was friends with in high school with was suckered into it. He was promised tons of amazing things and fell for the whole sales pitch. He signed up, was TOTALLY excited before leaving, and when I had talked to him years later.. he told me it was the biggest mistake of his life, and that nothing he was promised came true at all. He wanted to kill that recruiter.

If people WANT to serve, then... let them volunteer. Don't solicit them and try to manipulate them into signing up - THAT is where my problem is.

And, IMO, serving in the military these days doesn't carry honor it once had.. not so much as long as this country's reputation is going down the hole. People might be growing weary of those looking down upon soldiers, but I'm growing weary of blind patriotism that people think they feel they should have to have.

Cynthetiq · 09-03-2005, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StanT

I see this as giving personal contact information for a minor without their parents consent.

That would be a bad thing.

Once they are 18, they are fair game.

there's lots of contracts like that out there that parent's give consent just by accepting. Getting any government subsidies in my opinion puts you at the mercy of the strings attached for such subsidies. These are PUBLIC high schools. You choose to use the public facilities then you have to pay such prices for it.

Even if you do attend a private school, in California I recall having to fill out the selective service forms for my 18th birthday. Checking the website netted this information:

Quote:

Virtually all men must register with Selective Service. The exceptions to this rule are very few and include: nonimmigrant aliens on student, visitor, tourist, or diplomatic visas; men on active duty in the U.S. Armed Forces; and cadets and midshipmen in the Service Academies and certain other U.S. military colleges. All other men must register upon reaching age 18 (or before age 26, if entering and taking up residence in the U.S. when already older than 18).

Disabled men, clergymen, and men who believe themselves to be conscientiously opposed to war must register because there is no draft in effect, nor is there a program to classify men at this time. Should the Congress and the President reinstate a draft, a classification program would begin. Registrants would be examined to determine suitability for military service, and they would also have ample time to claim exemptions, deferments, or postponements. To be inducted, men would have to meet the physical, mental, and administrative standards established by the military services. Local Boards would meet in every American community to determine exemptions and deferments for clergymen, ministerial students, and men who file claims for reclassification as conscientious objectors.

Lebell · 09-03-2005, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

Oh boy, here we go... honestly now, hahaha, what proof do you need? Want me to carry a video recorder around and attempt to sign up and show you how the process works? Want me to send you links to websites that you'll immediately discredit? Not gonna waste my time - use common sense.

I mean seriously, it's kinda well known that these people lie...

So in other words, you have no personal experience or proof, only anecdotal experience.

I'm sure some do lie. And I also know from the real experiences of family members who have been in the military that some do not.

You'll have to try another argument.

Cynthetiq · 09-03-2005, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

Oh boy, here we go... honestly now, hahaha, what proof do you need? Want me to carry a video recorder around and attempt to sign up and show you how the process works? Want me to send you links to websites that you'll immediately discredit? Not gonna waste my time - use common sense.

I mean seriously, it's kinda well known that these people lie...

that's as stereotypical response as one can get. Insert racial epiphet into that and you're treading on the same thin ice as those other bigots and their arguments.

StanT · 09-03-2005, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

there's lots of contracts like that out there that parent's give consent just by accepting. Getting any government subsidies in my opinion puts you at the mercy of the strings attached for such subsidies. These are PUBLIC high schools. You choose to use the public facilities then you have to pay such prices for it.

I recall having to fill out the selective service forms for my 18th birthday.

My youngest daughter is an honorably discharged veteran and is currently employed by the Colorado State Patrol. Neither profession is something I would have recommended to her, but I support her adult decision in both cases.

We do a lot of things to protect/restrict minors in this country. They can't enter into contracts, can't buy cigarettes, and can't get married without parental consent in most cases. For the most part, selling or sharing information about minors is prohibited. Hell, they can't even join TFP or have their picture posted here for many of the same reasons. I don't see a compelling reason to make an exception for the military.

At 18, they are fair game.

Stompy · 09-03-2005, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

So in other words, you have no personal experience or proof, only anecdotal experience.

I'm sure some do lie. And I also know from the real experiences of family members who have been in the military that some do not.

You'll have to try another argument.

Hahaha, is this some kind of joke or something? How can you show proof that they lie? What do you want me to actually go to a recruiting place w/ a camera and document the signup process as well as any experiences I have during my stay? Jeez.

I uh... just posted personal experience, did you not read the post?

Sorry, but you can't discredit an argument if someone randomly calls out "PROOF!!" and you don't drop to your knees and give em what they want.

Ok then, for example, lawyers are often liars. We know this (of course, not all, but there are a lot to the point where you need to watch out). So... go on, show me proof. If you don't, I'll just forget about the common sense and discredit it.

Stompy · 09-03-2005, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

that's as stereotypical response as one can get. Insert racial epiphet into that and you're treading on the same thin ice as those other bigots and their arguments.

This is some crazy twilight zone shit, I swear, hahaha.

Hey, if that's your guys' opinion that they don't lie, more power to ya. I'm just stating personal experience as well as experience from others.

Anyway, if you want more insight, simply use google and search for "army recruiters lying" or variations thereof. I'm not makin it up

Lebell · 09-03-2005, 05:19 PM

So your argument is basically, "everyone knows it".

Ok.

cellophanedeity · 09-03-2005, 05:22 PM

Umm... educate the little Canuck.

What's this Selective Service thing all about?

Is it really manditory? What is it for? What happens if you don't sign up?

StanT · 09-03-2005, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellophanedeity

Umm... educate the little Canuck.

What's this Selective Service thing all about?

Is it really manditory? What is it for? What happens if you don't sign up?

Selective service = draft, currently no draft; but men do have to register

However, given your lack of a Y chromosome you would be exempt (that would be a different topic).

Stompy · 09-03-2005, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

So your argument is basically, "everyone knows it".

Ok.

Look, I know it's a sensitive thing to some people to say such things about our oh-so-wonderful soldiers, but don't let that cloud your judgement about what I'm saying and pretend it doesn't happen.

My argument isn't "everyone knows it", that's simply how you chose to interpret it. Take what I say how you will, but what I'm saying isn't news to your ears or something completely out of the question.

It's like, people try to disprove others with the "show me proof" BS, and if the other person doesn't show it, their statements are supposed to be meaningless.. don't think so.

No, it doesn't happen *every single time*, but it happens enough to the point where it should be on people's minds when you have recruiters soliciting your children.

Enough with the nonsense already.

Back to the topic - serving in the military is voluntary. There's no reason for the recruiters to solicit your kids into signing up and potentially (ding ding, here's why argument came in) manipulating them to deter them from their path in life. Although, I guess it could be argued that if your kid falls for it, then he kinda deserves it, but I won't even get into that

Cynthetiq · 09-03-2005, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

This is some crazy twilight zone shit, I swear, hahaha.

Hey, if that's your guys' opinion that they don't lie, more power to ya. I'm just stating personal experience as well as experience from others.

Anyway, if you want more insight, simply use google and search for "army recruiters lying" or variations thereof. I'm not makin it up

I'm not implying that they don't. I'm sure that like car salesmen there are some that sell you a bill of goods as there are some salesmen that actually help you get into the car you want at a fair price.

You just put out a blanket statement and I state that you are no different than any other bigot stating that all :insert race here: do :insert stereotypical statement here: it's my observation that your blanket statement is no different than a bigot's blanket statement.

Stiltzkin · 09-03-2005, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

Last time I checked, one of the major functions of the government was to protect the nation.

I DO agree with this statement. However, as we have recently seen, those same people who have volunteered to protect our nation can be abused by forcing them to fight one-sided battles that have absolutely nothing to do with protecting our nation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

Maybe they didn't do this so much back when most of you were in high school, but it is WELL known, at least around here, that military recruiters are scum that will do just about anything to try and sucker you into signing up.

Maybe what Stompy meant is that where he lives, recuiters are particularly manipulative? This is perhaps why he's so biased about his opinion about recuiters.

MSD · 09-03-2005, 09:05 PM

News Flash: When you take the PSATs, your info is given to the military. When you are born, you are tracked by your Social Security number. Any time there's a high school career fair, there are recruiters there. This is nothing new, just a different way of getting information.

Everyone's tax dollars are paying for your kid's $13000/year education. That comes to $169000 over 13 years with little of the cost being absorbed by you. If you want to send your kids to a school that doesn't give the military information that they already have, then pay for it yourself.

Bill O'Rights · 09-03-2005, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

There's no reason for the recruiters to solicit your kids into signing up and potentially (ding ding, here's why argument came in) manipulating them to deter them from their path in life.

What do you have against recruiters presenting options in life. Surprise...there happen to be a hell of a lot of benefits to military life. What really stabs at me is your comment "...deter them from their path in life." What is that? Anyone that serves in the military has automatically been cheated from a better life?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

Although, I guess it could be argued that if your kid falls for it, then he kinda deserves it, but I won't even get into that

Deserves what?

Bill O'Rights · 09-03-2005, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

You aren't guaranteed a position in the military. You know this, I know this.

Where do you get your information? Comic books? Yes, you most certainly are guaranteed a position in the military. When you enlist, you enlist into a specific career field.

Marvelous Marv · 09-04-2005, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

that's as stereotypical response as one can get. Insert racial epiphet into that and you're treading on the same thin ice as those other bigots and their arguments.

You read my mind.

Marvelous Marv · 09-04-2005, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

Look, I know it's a sensitive thing to some people to say such things about our oh-so-wonderful soldiers, but don't let that cloud your judgement about what I'm saying and pretend it doesn't happen.

Your statement about "oh-so-wonderful soldiers" speaks volumes.

Quote:

It's like, people try to disprove others with the "show me proof" BS, and if the other person doesn't show it, their statements are supposed to be meaningless.. don't think so.

All right then. The Iraqis had millions of weapons of mass destruction. Everyone knows it around here. Don't be rude by asking for proof.

Quote:

No, it doesn't happen *every single time*, but it happens enough to the point where it should be on people's minds when you have recruiters soliciting your children.

Enough with the nonsense already.

I wouldn't take a recruiter's wild promises as gospel (if a recruiter made them) any more than I would buy the Brooklyn Bridge from a guy who was standing beside it.

I can say for a fact that many recruits are promised certain training or schools in writing, and they get it, barring something unusual (no colorblind pilots, etc.)

I can also say for a fact (because I did it) that when you sign the papers, there is a paragraph at the bottom, that you initial, that says you have not been promised anything that isn't written on the contract.

If that paragraph was ignored by your friends, or acquaintances, or whoever you claim got tricked so badly, then it's not surprising they were dissatisfied. They weren't bright enough for the military to want to train them.

Quote:

Back to the topic - serving in the military is voluntary. There's no reason for the recruiters to solicit your kids into signing up and potentially (ding ding, here's why argument came in) manipulating them to deter them from their path in life. Although, I guess it could be argued that if your kid falls for it, then he kinda deserves it, but I won't even get into that

I'm not following this logic. Are there any other groups who shouldn't be allowed to solicit? Churches? The Peace Corps? Charities? Colleges? I wouldn't want any of these to "deter someone from their path in life."

(Additional comment removed by me because it involved political solicitors. Another time.)

filtherton · 09-04-2005, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

So in other words, you have no personal experience or proof, only anecdotal experience.

I'm sure some do lie. And I also know from the real experiences of family members who have been in the military that some do not.

You'll have to try another argument.

I don't know, this kind of evidence seems to be quite acceptable if one is talking about islam, or the beneficiaries of public assistance. I don't see what the problem is here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

Everyone's tax dollars are paying for your kid's $13000/year education. That comes to $169000 over 13 years with little of the cost being absorbed by you. If you want to send your kids to a school that doesn't give the military information that they already have, then pay for it yourself.

Actually, the cost of 13 years of education can vary wildly because it is mainly funded by property taxes paid by the local community. In more wealthy communities 13 years of education is worth a lot more than it is in the inner city. Not that it's relevant to army service.

Vincentt · 09-04-2005, 04:24 PM

http://www.channelcincinnati.com/new...33/detail.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in696991.shtml

http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/opin/pr_neid.html

http://www.mikehersh.com/printer_Sto...cruiting.shtml

http://shows.airamericaradio.com/maddow/node/519

And even a section on about.com http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/joini...cruiter3_5.htm

I think there is enough evidence to be worried.

djtestudo · 09-04-2005, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

Oh boy, here we go... honestly now, hahaha, what proof do you need? Want me to carry a video recorder around and attempt to sign up and show you how the process works? Want me to send you links to websites that you'll immediately discredit? Not gonna waste my time - use common sense.

I mean seriously, it's kinda well known that these people lie... I'm not sure why people are acting like they don't. No, not ALL of them lie, just like not ALL lawyers are bad, but there's certainly a good amount - high enough to where you should be worried.

Recruiters are pests and will say just about anything you wanna hear to get you to sign up. I personally experienced it and my friends did too.

They called me up trying to get me to join, and I told them, "look, I know you're just doing what you're told, but I really don't need to waste my life with this stuff. I already have a career as a computer programmer and things are going great for me, why in the world would I drop all of that and risk what I have going for me?" (I was 18 at the time, just before grad).. the recruiter quickly proceeded to into the "well if you just come down here and sign, we can discuss the details and work out a plan for you!"

Right, he must thing I'm fuckin stupid.

You aren't guaranteed a position in the military. You know this, I know this. The thing was, I was actually considering it for a while as long as I was guranteed that programming assignment, but my grandpa and uncle, who both served, talked me out of it.

That was the best thing they ever did, because I would've completely wasted my talent and missed out on establishing and securing my future at such a young age.

Keep in mind I'm also 24. Maybe they didn't do this so much back when most of you were in high school, but it is WELL known, at least around here, that military recruiters are scum that will do just about anything to try and sucker you into signing up.

In fact, someone I was friends with in high school with was suckered into it. He was promised tons of amazing things and fell for the whole sales pitch. He signed up, was TOTALLY excited before leaving, and when I had talked to him years later.. he told me it was the biggest mistake of his life, and that nothing he was promised came true at all. He wanted to kill that recruiter.

If people WANT to serve, then... let them volunteer. Don't solicit them and try to manipulate them into signing up - THAT is where my problem is.

And, IMO, serving in the military these days doesn't carry honor it once had.. not so much as long as this country's reputation is going down the hole. People might be growing weary of those looking down upon soldiers, but I'm growing weary of blind patriotism that people think they feel they should have to have.

http://www.rivier.edu/faculty/dburge.../fallicies.htm

See: Hasty Generalization, Unrepresentative Sample.

Just because you had one experiance with one recruiter doesn't mean that every one is like that.

All my experiances with recruiters were very simple: They call, I say I'm not interested, they say, "Thank you," and hang up. That goes over several years, and from all four branches.

Maybe I'm just lucky.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellophanedeity

Umm... educate the little Canuck.

What's this Selective Service thing all about?

Is it really manditory? What is it for? What happens if you don't sign up?

At the age of eighteen, every male must sign up for draft eligibility. Since there is no draft in the US right now, it isn't a worry; it's essentially keeping the draft mechanism open and working just in case.

09-02-2005, 04:05 PM	#4 (permalink)
theguyondacouch salmon? Location: Outside Providence	While I do blieve it is unethical to give out their contact info without their permission, just because a recruiter has your info doesn't mean you are going to be forced into the army. The most they can do is call you every once in a while and hassle you. While I do understand how some people could be upset about this, I don't think it deserves parties and such. __________________ "Lick my frozen metal ass!"

09-02-2005, 05:00 PM	#7 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Last time I checked, one of the major functions of the government was to protect the nation. To do that, they need soldiers. Unless we return to the draft, we need volunteers. This action meerly increases the rate of volunteers. So in the end, this is a good thing. At least, that's my take on it. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-02-2005, 06:16 PM	#9 (permalink)
meembo Junkie Location: Connecticut	I've given fake addresses for years. I give my address as a parent, but I list my children's address as some fake address, and I have nothing to complain about. In this age of divorced parents and such, their real address is never scrutinized. __________________ less I say, smarter I am

09-03-2005, 04:37 AM	#17 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	Recruiter at my sisters high school told her that her and her friends could all serve together. And could choose to not be sent out of the country... I'm going to find it hard to trust based on that. In high school they just told me it would pay for all my education, and allow me to "get any job you want" after I was out. __________________ .

09-03-2005, 05:29 AM	#18 (permalink)
Pragma I am Winter Born Location: Alexandria, VA	As Bill O'Rights said: yes, some recruiters will lie to get people to sign up. It's not a great job to get stuck with and lots of people aren't happy as recruiters and just want to get quotas. However, there are also a lot of really good recruiters out there. As to the highschools giving out the information to the recruiters - I don't see anything wrong with that. So the kids will get a phone call and if they really aren't interested, I don't imagine that the recruiter would call them back. If they're wishy-washy on the phone, then sure - the recruiter would probably try to talk them into it, but if they absolutely aren't interested, then I can't imagine the recruiter wasting his time. __________________ Eat antimatter, Posleen-boy!

09-02-2005, 03:40 PM	#2 (permalink)
Trisk Insane	While I agree that this is somewhat alarming information and I would prefer to not have my child's information given to the government like that if I had a kid, I'm not really suprised. The government and tons of other organizations out there have way more information than we would suspect or give them credit for. Even if we could stop the government from getting information about our kids from schools (which is doubtful. I'm sure there are other ways to find that information, should they need it...and ways to keep track of the information, even if they claim it has been deleted from their databases), it would hardly make a difference in the grand scheme of things. Besides, even if the military recruiters have more information about your individual kid, knowing their contact information isn't going to make them force your kid into the army. The only thing that could force your kid to join would be a draft....and that would go into effect and send your kid away whether or not the military recruiters had your child's contact information.

09-02-2005, 03:51 PM	#3 (permalink)
Salomon Loser	You say this as if military service is an outrage or an embarrasement. A lot of really decent people enter the military, believe it or not. And last I checked, there was no draft.

09-02-2005, 04:51 PM	#6 (permalink)
analog Banned	Doesn't surprise me. Regardless, if any of them ever go to college and want federal student aid, the first thing you have to do is register with the selective service department, which gives them your info anyway... that is, if registering with selective service isn't required at 18 by your state anyway.

09-02-2005, 05:10 PM	#8 (permalink)
StanT © Location: Colorado	I see this as giving personal contact information for a minor without their parents consent. That would be a bad thing. Once they are 18, they are fair game.

09-03-2005, 06:18 AM	#19 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	/threadjack When my husband joined, his recruiter was pretty much truthful. He played up certain aspects, like traveling the world, but he didn't lie and say he'd get any job he wanted when he got out, that he could definitely serve with his best friend (who joined at the same time, they were sent to separate bases), or that if I joined (I thought about it for awhile) that we would definitely be stationed together if we married. The traveling thing wasn't even that exaggerated; hubby has been to some fantastic places that I will probably never see. His military experience was for the most part, a very good thing. /end threadjack As far as opting out, I can understand wanting to opt out underage children, but since Selective Service is mandatory and not optional, once a man hits 18, he'll most likely be contacted anyway. I guess it can prevent "pestering" for a couple years at best. __________________ "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king" Formerly Medusa

09-03-2005, 05:19 PM	#27 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	So your argument is basically, "everyone knows it". Ok. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-03-2005, 05:22 PM	#28 (permalink)
cellophanedeity Heliotrope Location: A warm room	Umm... educate the little Canuck. What's this Selective Service thing all about? Is it really manditory? What is it for? What happens if you don't sign up?

09-03-2005, 09:05 PM	#33 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	News Flash: When you take the PSATs, your info is given to the military. When you are born, you are tracked by your Social Security number. Any time there's a high school career fair, there are recruiters there. This is nothing new, just a different way of getting information. Everyone's tax dollars are paying for your kid's $13000/year education. That comes to $169000 over 13 years with little of the cost being absorbed by you. If you want to send your kids to a school that doesn't give the military information that they already have, then pay for it yourself.

09-04-2005, 04:24 PM	#39 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	http://www.channelcincinnati.com/new...33/detail.html http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in696991.shtml http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/opin/pr_neid.html http://www.mikehersh.com/printer_Sto...cruiting.shtml http://shows.airamericaradio.com/maddow/node/519 And even a section on about.com http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/joini...cruiter3_5.htm I think there is enough evidence to be worried. __________________ .