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#41 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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#43 (permalink) | |
whosoever
Location: New England
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The rest of your post. I don't know what to say to be convincing, but i hope that it is realized that the price of affirming your argument would be that every single law, everywhere would be considered just. This clearly is not the case in my mind. Without resorting to extreme examples, i think history records plenty of laws later seen to be quite unjust in content and application. If a nation banned heterosexual acts under pain of death, would you consider the resulting fatalities to be just?
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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16 |
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#44 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: on the road to where I want to be...
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People should be able to live their lives by their own moral standards, doing what they think is right, AS LONG AS they do not infringe on somebody else's right to do the same.
So for instance, if you kill somebody, they don't have much options for how to live their life anymore. As long as what you're doing doesn't hinder somebody else, fuck how you want, smoke what you want, live however makes you happy. That's how it should be.
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Dont be afraid to change who you are for what you could become |
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#45 (permalink) | ||
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
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Courtesy of Supple Cow from the Daily Wisdom thread from earlier this month:
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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert |
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#46 (permalink) | |
Still Crazy
Location: In my own time
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From what I understand, the Sharia is not Islamic (religious) law in that it comes directly from the Koran; it is the legal system written by men that could be said to be Islam-inspired or Islam-derived.
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it's gritty |
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#47 (permalink) | |
Unbelievable
Location: Grants Pass OR
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#48 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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Ask any Singaporean what they think about drugs and almost all of them will say that they are bad and that you will be killed if you are caught. What happens to most Singaporeans who are caught? They get put into rehabilitation, but foreigners? They are put to death or at the minimum life in prison with no chance of parole. As far as it not making human rights records why should it? They were killed in what can be reported in 2 ways. Police departments here do the same thing to manipulate crime rate numbers. Again, I state human rights violations are wrong on their face, they don't need to be against queers to be any more or any less wrong.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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#49 (permalink) |
whosoever
Location: New England
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I think all the discussion of comparison to drugs, or whatever...is all a smokescreen. Either you think this is wrong, or you think it's right. You can make excuses for the state, or you can stand with the victims. Abdicating the idea of justice to whoever holds enough guns to call themselves a government is not a stand of moral responsbility. And Cyn...your comparisons are getting even worse. First Nambla, now drug kingpins? I'm sorry, but your choices in metaphors are really out of order.
Not making human rights violation reports? That's not an issue? I'm going to ask you to explain before i respond. I'm reading this in a very, very negative light, and i'd like to see if i'm wrong to be perceiving it this way. All i'll say is that the US records human rights violations around the world so that in our dialouge with those nations, we can show concern, and attempt to lobby those governments to change. Significant trade pressure, military assistance, diplomatic attention have brought significant results in many parts of the world. Attention to the treatment of Christians in China is a good example. If they are not recorded by the State Dept. they will not be addressed. This is why i think it's critical. It also affirms to people here that the Gov. takes the situation seriously. Why do you think it's not important? i think it does matter that it's against queers. picking on anyone is wrong. picking on the one who has no one to defend them is all the more terrible in that they never had a chance, and suffer not just the consequence of oppression but do so believing that they have no allies, no person to stand for them against the force of the state.
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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16 |
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#50 (permalink) | ||||
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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cj posted that if there is a law that says 'breaking this law = this consequence" that's the POINT I am making with mentioning SE Asia and Singapore again. I am FURTHER stating the LOGIC of that point and showing EXAMPLES where it happens in the world. AGAIN THE CONCEPT not the ACTIONS but the CONCEPT since that is what we are talking about. Quote:
I'm stating that FIGURES and STATISTICS are easily manipulated after they are collected, they are even more manipulated during the intial collecting phase. Police departments do it all the time to obfusicate the reality of crimes. Here they clearly have 3 different ways to make a statistic out of it, bias homosexual crime, capital punishment for criminal act, or nothing at all. This isn't a clear cut as Matthew Shepard's situation, but the person keeping the records has choices to make and as a human being can make choices that you or I disagree with. Quote:
This is exactly where you and I diverge. Quote:
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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#51 (permalink) | |||||
whosoever
Location: New England
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Where do you get the right to assume that i'm cold to other human rights violations, or that i'm somehow callous to other victims. This is a story that wasn't getting a lot of press, and it was personally meaningful to me. I shared it with this community, to help in my own reflection on it, and to see what other people had to say. i wanted to be grateful that i'm safer in this country than most. i wanted to say i was concerned that people were still being victimized for their orientation. None of this rules out concern for other cases...and i just don't know where in the blazes you get the idea i don't care. if i knew that another category of human rights abuses was being ignored as systematically, i'd be first in line to make that known, too. i know about this because i have an interest in queer related news, and saw the story. that's why i brought it here...because that was something i could contribute to the collective discussion of this community. why that turns things around so that i have to prove my level of interest in other human rights concerns...wtf?
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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16 |
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#52 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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And I hope you weren't trying to say I am being hypocritical, because I don't agree that there isn't moral absolutes, nor do I think that people should be able to follow whatever they think is right. I was merely trying to see the reasoning behind someone else's thinking that way. |
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#53 (permalink) | ||||||||||||
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Again, we differ in the fact that you want to tell people what they should be doing, from individuals to soverign states, whereas I want them to be left alone to their own choices and decisions as allowed by morality vis a vie religious community, society, and law. Please let me state again, that it does not mean that my passiveness in any way supports their belief, to which you've stated something to the equivalent of silence is acceptance. Quote:
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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#54 (permalink) | ||||||||||
whosoever
Location: New England
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For this, for other reasons, i am willing to call laws unjust. In a situation where civil disobedience will not result in immediate death, i would advocate that a person break laws or policies they feel to be unjust (i'm thinking sitting at white only lunch counters) and to accept punishment. But in a society that is hell bent on killing a category of people...i simply reccomend that these people choose to survive in such a way that they celebrate their dignity as humans, and if they must go to death to do so proudly. I label those deaths unjust because there is no reasonable fashion to oppose them and not be killed. It isn't a matter of "they tried to escape the law" but rather "the law was insane and genocidal" from the get go. Quote:
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Other than that, my advocacy is as defined above. In cases where violence is not imminent, or can be absorbed without loss of life (i would rather be struck and not strike back if i can do so) i believe in non-violent resistance. I believe that protest of evil affirms our humanity, and promotes just relationship. I don't file lawsuits. I start conversations and arguments. I don't put guns to people's heads. I stand without force when i demand equal rights. you tell me. What rights am i taking away from people? The right to feel okay about participating in a homophobic society? The right to be comfortable with silence on human rights abuses? The right to ignore the ills of heterocentrism and homophobia? I talk. That's what i do.
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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16 Last edited by martinguerre; 07-28-2005 at 08:48 AM.. Reason: tag fixin' |
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#56 (permalink) | ||||||||||
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. Last edited by Cynthetiq; 07-28-2005 at 10:21 AM.. |
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#57 (permalink) | |
whosoever
Location: New England
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awww... crap.. i clicked on the edit button instead of the quote button.
my apologies. I have put the appropriate text back that I could via my email. Non-sequiter. Iran didn't kill these kids to save itself from danger. You'll say i'm being over literal. I say you're being obtuse. Without getting into issues of consent in totalitarian regimes, i think it's pretty clear that a people can consent to a government that is not moral. Castro came to power under popular support, yet jails political prisoners on a routine basis. Pinochet had great support, yet order the dissapearings/murders of thousands. Robespierre had the support of the masses right until he lost his own head. I won't Godwin this further than i have to (i've been trying quite hard to avoid that material as examples), but i think you get the point. That the masses consent to evil does not make evil good. The individual is always, always responsible for wither dissenting or assenting to the world around them. That individual either accepts responsbility for what is happnening, or that person acts to disrupt that pattern. Then call a spade a spade. State for the record that you believe that killing a person for their orientation is wrong, and should be considered a human rights abuse. This is one of the few threads i've ever started. I've posted on threads relating to the Darfur, Iraq, Afganistan, prisoner treatment in context of the war on terror, prison rape in US prisons, mental health issues, sexual assault, and that's off the top of my head. One vein? Yeah. Human rights. Yes. One category of human beings who do not live without fear of violence is queer persons in many nations and regions. These people have been historically overlooked, and there is not enough action taking place to remedy the situation. It's like saying that people shouldn't get shot. If Bob, Steve, Jill and Jane are standing around, and Mr. Evil comes and puts a gun to Steve's head, do you shout: A) Shooting people in general is wrong! or B) Don't shoot Steve! I'm shouting the equivalent of B, not becuase i want Bob, Jill and Jane to get capped, but because a gun is currently aimed a group. There is other advocacy to be done, and i do my best to work in concert with that, and to support it. But this happens to be an issue where i can find my energy and passion. I hope to support others who have that same energy and passion for their causes. I start where i can because to do everything is too much. Maybe someone who is empowered by queer rights campaigning will become the most brilliant advocate ever for third world development, and end world poverty. Maybe someone will find inspiration in this work and do work for the rights of women, or providing health care in wor torn places. Quote:
I won't assume you just reposted this. Was there material that you mean to respond to there? If someone liked to beat their kid because they were red headed... This is all thread jack. This is the only place where you and i have a dissent on a legal basis, and it's already been hashed out to hell and back. If you want to bring up the original thread, that's fine. But despite our strong feelings on this particular issue, this is concealing a broader point. Forest for the trees if you will. beyond this specific issue, our conception of the legal rights of individuals are largely the same. yet, the accusation persists that i'm all about taking rights away. A disagreement on the definition of child abuse is not a philosophy of the removal of indivual rights. You are willing to suspend parental rights for what you believe to be child abuse, no? So am i. We simply disagree on what child abuse consists of. / end thread jack. if we need to discuss this particular issue more, please move this to other thread.
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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16 Last edited by martinguerre; 07-31-2005 at 09:25 PM.. Reason: added a quote back in |
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#58 (permalink) | |||||
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Since you again need to see it since you aren't understanding it from my posts: I believe that killing a person for thier orientation is wrong and is abuse against basic human rights. Quote:
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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#59 (permalink) | |||
whosoever
Location: New England
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you've got PM, but i'll say it here too...it's not a problem.
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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16 |
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#60 (permalink) | |
Fuckin' A
Location: Lex Vegas
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"I'm telling you, we need to get rid of a few people or a million." -Maddox |
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#61 (permalink) |
whosoever
Location: New England
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first...the US doesn't have "basic" human rights in terms of being free to be a person of queer sexual orientation. While the SCOTUS did affirm a right to privacy, including the sphere of who you go to bed with, the make up of the court is changing.
secondly, any equal rights legislation on the books nationally does not include orientation. none of this means i think the lynchings are coming tomorrow. indeed, the discussion stays (largely) within the civil sphere. which is why i stay here in the frozen north of minnesota, and not a few more miles north. the point i was trying to make is that this execution was politics of exclusion. ills, real or imagined, are cast on to a group or individual. that individual is removed from the sphere of group participation by a variety of means. here, the mechanism is usually ostracism and discrimination. there, it's loop of rope. important, and indeed critical differences in practical effect. but the problem i see is that we're not removed from that situation in kind. According to leading figures in the American political right, "the gays" this and "the gays" do that...and all the while i have to wonder what the average person thinks of queers as a gut reaction. in this thread we've seen comparisions of adult consensual sex to pedophilia, analogies involving drug trafficking, and a whole host of canards that are told about queers to make them seem less human. while we have largely removed homocidal violence from the vocabulary of the opposition, queer rights advocates have legitimate reason to worry that we're being perceived as a threat and a menace, something that needs to be cast out of American life.
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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16 |
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forevermore, silent |
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