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Originally Posted by martinguerre
No need to shout.
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Yes, there is since you don't seem to understand my connections to similar concepts and similar situations, not EXACT and not COMPARISON, just similar.
If you do, then how does this fit in? When I've stated to you that the concepts I've posed are similar and allow me to understand where you find your boundaries in what is acceptable and how via logical exposition and extention.
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I think all the discussion of comparison to drugs, or whatever...is all a smokescreen.
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Either you think this is wrong, or you think it's right.
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I've stated it to be wrong.
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You can make excuses for the state, or you can stand with the victims. Abdicating the idea of justice to whoever holds enough guns to call themselves a government is not a stand of moral responsbility. And Cyn...your comparisons are getting even worse. First Nambla, now drug kingpins? I'm sorry, but your choices in metaphors are really out of order.
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I make no excuses for any state. Any soverign government is free to make decisions on how it interacts with it's nationals.
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And that's why i'm writing my response. I won't repeat it, i don't expect it to convince you at this point, it seems clear we disagree on this matter. There is not a failure to understand the mechanisms of laws here. My comment is a moral assesment of your attitude towards the relationship of justice and law, not a factual claim on how laws work.
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No you don't. Becauase as I've stated before I given the mechanisms of my thoughs on morality from a societal, legal, and religious point of view. In the absence to the religious and societal, there's nothing left but legal. You keep insisting that my morality is just legal. I've clearly stated to you and to Gilda as to how my own observations of morality is derived.
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As i said, i was open to the possibility that i was reading too much in to those words, but that those were my concerns. I still would like clarification on your original statement. The idea that statistics are manipulated....well, yes. They are being manipulated to ignore some crimes against certain people. Those human rights abuses are not being effectively confronted in the world community as a result. Thus, my concern.
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Again, WHY SHOULD IT? The person collecting the information for human rights abuses has 3 things to pick from. Is capital punishment for "criminal acts" (because these MA and AM were supposedly paying the price of 2 things, homosexual acts or molesting a 13 year old) considered human rights abuses? According to how I understand the
Universal Declaration of Human Rights they seem to be met on their face. Even if it's a kangaroo court, it still met due process tests. Whether they are biased is a different issue.
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They are being manipulated to ignore some crimes against certain people.
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Again, I state that this is where you and I diverge and is why I feel that you aren't even handed on your belief. All crimes against all people are wrong. Not some select few that feel they should be tracked. Today it's homosexuals, what if tomorrow it's enuchs? What if it's albinos? The awareness you are bringing forth is a good thing, awareness is tantamount to getting the mainstream people to be more sympathetic and understanding to your cause. But again I state that ALL crimes are bad. All abuses should be brought forth to the public, not just one demographic.
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Don't tell me where my outrage is. i could try to prove this to you, but i don't think it serves anyone to do so.
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Again, not telling you that was your statement, but you see just the words and not the concept behind them.
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Where do you get the right to assume that i'm cold to other human rights violations, or that i'm somehow callous to other victims. This is a story that wasn't getting a lot of press, and it was personally meaningful to me. I shared it with this community, to help in my own reflection on it, and to see what other people had to say. i wanted to be grateful that i'm safer in this country than most. i wanted to say i was concerned that people were still being victimized for their orientation.
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I make the assumption from our entire exchange. Whenever I say it has to be even handed regardless of creed, color, sexual orientation, you say that it's more important because they are queer.
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None of this rules out concern for other cases...and i just don't know where in the blazes you get the idea i don't care. if i knew that another category of human rights abuses was being ignored as systematically, i'd be first in line to make that known, too. i know about this because i have an interest in queer related news, and saw the story. that's why i brought it here...because that was something i could contribute to the collective discussion of this community. why that turns things around so that i have to prove my level of interest in other human rights concerns...wtf?
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In the same vein as to why I have to explain my understanding of morality and law, I've stated time and time again to explain that it has to be even handed for all, you're only starting to address this? Again, IMO because you feel "them being queer" is more important than basic human rights.
Again, we differ in the fact that you want to tell people what they should be doing, from individuals to soverign states, whereas I want them to be left alone to their own choices and decisions as allowed by morality vis a vie religious community, society, and law.
Please let me state again, that it does not mean that my passiveness in any way supports their belief, to which you've stated something to the equivalent of silence is acceptance.
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Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Gilda's reminder to me underlines this best. You want to revoke or suppress some individuals rights in achieving your own agenda. Am I wrong in my understanding of your position?
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