What CAN they do? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Phage · 05-13-2005, 08:08 AM

There have been multiple threads about alcohol, drugs, military service, etc. but recently this statement caught my eye:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lead543

I think no one under age 21 should be allowed to use tanning beds. I asked my doctor about them and he said the majority (not all) of skin damage is done before age 21. And I'm sure there's a bunch of different statistics as far as ages go. But I think we can all agree that a 14 year old having the skin of someone almost double her age...not healthy.

I don't want to discuss this particular question but rather the mentality behind such a statement. What can someone under 21 be trusted to decide, if anything? Also, what sorts of things should not be allowed under any circumstances even if a guardian would allow it? What are the guidelines that would identify an unacceptable activity, and the justification for removing such a right?

streak_56 · 05-13-2005, 08:29 AM

There are some things that a person that age can decide. My thoughts on it is that if a person whats to do something then let them do it. If they are "damaged" or lets not hope that they die from it. But hey..... what's free will without a little something to tell us not to do it? Oh wait.... I forgot about the legal/penial system.

But I think that statement is a little out of context. The main point seems to be that most damage to a person skin happens before 21, not the decisions that they make.

Unacceptable to me, will be acceptable to someone else, as I said above, I wouldn't care that much, if you do something, then you have every right to, within the constraints of the legal system. The only way that I would care, is if I was impacted, or involved in some way. Such as (example only) if a kid... 16-17 was drinking and driving and crashed into me. That would tell me that there is a reason behind the drinking age being at 18, 19 and 21 in the respective countries.

BigBen · 05-13-2005, 08:30 AM

In Canada the big age is 18. Vote, tried for crimes as an adult, buy smokes, porn, anything. Some provinces hold drinking off to 19.

By 21, We have been adults for 3 years!

Young adults of the world, Unite! This 21 years of age thing is bullshit, and everyone knows it. The youth are too busy trying to find themselves that they fail to form a solid political lobbying group.

I am 29, and as mature as I was when I was 16. Granted, the life lessons I have learned have made me more wise, and the post-secondary education I have recieved has expanded my knowledge base. Don't confuse those things with maturity.

The question I have is "Why do young adults allow the government to oppress them of their rights and freedoms?"

BigBen · 05-13-2005, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by streak_56

Such as (example only) if a kid... 16-17 was drinking and driving and crashed into me.

Do you see what you did there? You placed the person into an identifiable group and then labelled them. That label removed the social responsibility of their actions.

I do not agree with calling a 16-17 year old a "kid". They know exactly what they are doing.

ObieX · 05-13-2005, 09:27 AM

As was said, the problem is that no one under 18 has any voice in government, and the ones between 18 and 21 either don't use it to have any sway, or those who do use it don't have enough numbers to sway any opinions. If everyone, no matter what the age, could vote, things would be different. Because people ages 1-21 have no power, they'll continue to be oppressed.

maleficent · 05-13-2005, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ObieX

As was said, the problem is that no one under 18 has any voice in government, and the ones between 18 and 21 either don't use it to have any sway, or those who do use it don't have enough numbers to sway any opinions. If everyone, no matter what the age, could vote, things would be different. Because people ages 1-21 have no power, they'll continue to be oppressed.

18 - 21 year olds could have a huge voice, if they opted to use it.

based on Census records from the 2000 election (I don't have the link, I just have a spreadsheet that I pulled last.

45.4 percent of all 18 -24 year olds were registed to vote
32.3 percent of those registered voters actually voted.

Just for a comparison on that
73.6 percent of all 55 -64 year olds were registered to vote
66.8 percent of those registered voters actually voted.

18 -21 year olds aren't oppressed, they aren't fulfilling thier obligation to vote. Senior citizens actually do vote.. .who do you think the politicians will listen to?

I'm not sure what the numbers are like for 2004, but I'm betting they aren't much different.

iamnormal · 05-13-2005, 09:55 AM

Laws don't make people smarter. They punish the stupid.

ObieX · 05-13-2005, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

18 - 21 year olds could have a huge voice, if they opted to use it.

based on Census records from the 2000 election (I don't have the link, I just have a spreadsheet that I pulled last.

45.4 percent of all 18 -24 year olds were registed to vote
32.3 percent of those registered voters actually voted.

Just for a comparison on that
73.6 percent of all 55 -64 year olds were registered to vote
66.8 percent of those registered voters actually voted.

18 -21 year olds aren't oppressed, they aren't fulfilling thier obligation to vote. Senior citizens actually do vote.. .who do you think the politicians will listen to?

I'm not sure what the numbers are like for 2004, but I'm betting they aren't much different.

Yea but there's a lot more people in the 22-100 age brackets than in the 18-21 bracket. So even if they did vote they would have to go up against everyone else. And because everyone else isnt subject to the types of laws they are they don't care becauseit doesn't effect them. Until the "no drinking" age ispushed to 30, people ages 22-30 don't give a rat's ass what happens to those younger than them.

BigBen · 05-13-2005, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ObieX

people ages 22-30 don't give a rat's ass what happens to those younger than them.

I care. I really do. I am simply in a situation where I cannot help their cause because I was kicked out of that club with a bunch of candles planted on top of a cake.

Shall I threadjack here? I think this next question is still on topic:

How does one go about pursuing changing legislation and other laws that are obviously discriminatory? In Canada we have the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and I think that all it would take is for an 18 year old to sue the province (or provincial branch that was responsible for the drinking age) saying that the drinking age law is violating his/her charter rights. Am I right or wrong here?

What about you yanks? Is there something in the Constitution that says that 18 years you are an adult, and noone can do anything to stop you?

Hey, Lawyers, help me out here!

MSD · 05-13-2005, 07:58 PM

If we want to protect people from themselves, then we should outlaw everything. Literally everything that is not necessary for human survival will be illegal, anyone who carries any sort of incurable disease, sezually transmitted or not, will be killed, and the rest of us can live in a bubble with padded walls.

If we want to let people be responsible for themselves, we should leave the line of adulthood after which parents are not responsible at 18 and let Darwin sort them out.

I fully support the second one. Let people do anything they want and severely punish them when they hurt others.

Seeker · 05-13-2005, 08:23 PM

Along the same line as MrSelfDestruct.. I think there are a lot of kids (10 - 17) that know exactly what they are doing and how they can get away with stuff because they know that they have that 'allowance'.

How will anyone learn to take responsibility for their actions if we keep 'raising' the responsible age bracket?

I personally think that the sooner you give people responsibility for their actions, the sooner they will sort themselves out.

guthmund · 05-13-2005, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBen

What about you yanks? Is there something in the Constitution that says that 18 years you are an adult, and noone can do anything to stop you?

Hey, Lawyers, help me out here!

I'm not a lawyer, but I dabble on the Internet...?

Nothing in there like that as far as I know. In fact, I don't think I've even heard anyone make such an argument, although I'll admit, my goverment/civics classes were a long time ago.

From my understanding, Laws are written on generalities. Based on the assumption of the average. Therefore, the law is impossible to write to tailor fit every given situation on any given day. Overall, I think the law already does a pretty good job of differentiating between children and adults and determining who's responsible for what.

All that being said, I don't give a good goddamn what anyone wants to do to themselves. Tan all the live long day, smoke like a train for 30 years, ingest and inject every drug known to man, or drink yourself to an early grave and I couldn't possibly care less. Your behavior only affects me when it ceases to be a private personal experience and affects the general public at large. Tan all you want, smoke all you want and do all the drugs you want, but don't expect me to foot the bill when Disease gets her infected hands on you and calls in your tab.

Other than that, do what ye will an it harm none...or something.

AngelicVampire · 05-14-2005, 05:24 AM

Responsibility should be granted at age 16 (either that or 12), 16 is generally the age where you can start to get married, sign up for the military, leave school etc... at that time you can enter the adult world so should be treated as an adult (for all things, including punishment for crimes.

The 12 comment comes from cinemas, buses etc who often have child as 12 or under, if I have to pay full fare then I am an adult and so should get the same respect.

05-13-2005, 08:30 AM	#3 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	In Canada the big age is 18. Vote, tried for crimes as an adult, buy smokes, porn, anything. Some provinces hold drinking off to 19. By 21, We have been adults for 3 years! Young adults of the world, Unite! This 21 years of age thing is bullshit, and everyone knows it. The youth are too busy trying to find themselves that they fail to form a solid political lobbying group. I am 29, and as mature as I was when I was 16. Granted, the life lessons I have learned have made me more wise, and the post-secondary education I have recieved has expanded my knowledge base. Don't confuse those things with maturity. The question I have is "Why do young adults allow the government to oppress them of their rights and freedoms?" __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

05-13-2005, 09:27 AM	#5 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	As was said, the problem is that no one under 18 has any voice in government, and the ones between 18 and 21 either don't use it to have any sway, or those who do use it don't have enough numbers to sway any opinions. If everyone, no matter what the age, could vote, things would be different. Because people ages 1-21 have no power, they'll continue to be oppressed. __________________ We Must Dissent.

05-13-2005, 08:23 PM	#11 (permalink)
Seeker Getting Clearer Location: with spirit	Along the same line as MrSelfDestruct.. I think there are a lot of kids (10 - 17) that know exactly what they are doing and how they can get away with stuff because they know that they have that 'allowance'. How will anyone learn to take responsibility for their actions if we keep 'raising' the responsible age bracket? I personally think that the sooner you give people responsibility for their actions, the sooner they will sort themselves out. __________________ *To those who wander but who are not lost...* ~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

05-13-2005, 08:29 AM	#2 (permalink)
streak_56 who ever said streaking was a bad thing? Location: Calgary	There are some things that a person that age can decide. My thoughts on it is that if a person whats to do something then let them do it. If they are "damaged" or lets not hope that they die from it. But hey..... what's free will without a little something to tell us not to do it? Oh wait.... I forgot about the legal/penial system. But I think that statement is a little out of context. The main point seems to be that most damage to a person skin happens before 21, not the decisions that they make. Unacceptable to me, will be acceptable to someone else, as I said above, I wouldn't care that much, if you do something, then you have every right to, within the constraints of the legal system. The only way that I would care, is if I was impacted, or involved in some way. Such as (example only) if a kid... 16-17 was drinking and driving and crashed into me. That would tell me that there is a reason behind the drinking age being at 18, 19 and 21 in the respective countries.

05-13-2005, 09:55 AM	#7 (permalink)
iamnormal Addict Location: In the id	Laws don't make people smarter. They punish the stupid.

05-13-2005, 07:58 PM	#10 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	If we want to protect people from themselves, then we should outlaw everything. Literally everything that is not necessary for human survival will be illegal, anyone who carries any sort of incurable disease, sezually transmitted or not, will be killed, and the rest of us can live in a bubble with padded walls. If we want to let people be responsible for themselves, we should leave the line of adulthood after which parents are not responsible at 18 and let Darwin sort them out. I fully support the second one. Let people do anything they want and severely punish them when they hurt others.

05-14-2005, 05:24 AM	#13 (permalink)
AngelicVampire Insane	Responsibility should be granted at age 16 (either that or 12), 16 is generally the age where you can start to get married, sign up for the military, leave school etc... at that time you can enter the adult world so should be treated as an adult (for all things, including punishment for crimes. The 12 comment comes from cinemas, buses etc who often have child as 12 or under, if I have to pay full fare then I am an adult and so should get the same respect.