Bad Kids, TV To blame? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 04-27-2005, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Not so funny
Parents say a little attitude goes a long way toward problems when their kids pick up the bad habits they see on TV sitcoms.
By Linda Shrieves
Sentinel Staff Writer
LINK
April 27, 2005

The change, Jean Martin recalls, took place last summer. It started when she would ask her children to do something and they'd respond with the dreaded "whatever."

Even minor requests -- "brush your teeth" -- became debates. Her normally well-mannered children, ages 5 and 9, had become sassy. At that moment, Martin found herself in the company of other parents -- those who have discovered that their sweet-tempered little child has turned into .... a sitcom kid. Sassy and spunky, bratty and brilliant.

Oh, for the days of Lassie or The Cosby Show.

Though most TV watchdog groups fret about violence and sex on television, some parents say they're increasingly concerned about TV's attitude problem. From cartoons to sitcoms, the stars are now sassy children who deliver flip one-liners, put ƒè down authority figures and revel in a laugh track.

And their attitudes are contagious. Formerly polite kids are smart-alecky, eye-rolling and harrumphing, just like the kids on television. In Jean and Brian Martin's Longwood home, that behavior came to a quick halt after Jean began paying close attention to her children's TV diet. What she found were shows full of wiseacre kids and nonexistent (or worse, dumb) parents.

"I noticed they were watching the Cartoon Network, which I think is the worst," says Martin. "The parents don't play any roles on the shows, like on Ed, Ed and Eddy or like on Dexter's Laboratory, where the parents are there but the kids run the world." The kids never get punished for their pranks and treat their friends terribly, she says.

When she switched the channel to Nickelodeon, Martin found more of the same.

The Martins quickly limited their kids' tube time to PBS or Animal Planet or the Discovery Channel. And, sure enough, the kids' attitudes improved.

"On TV, the kids are allowed to talk to their parents like they're all one peer group, like they're all on the same level," she says. "That's just not the way it is in our house. We don't debate things with our kids."

Snottiness prevails

At the Parents Television Council offices in Alexandria, Va., five researchers employ VCRs to document network and cable TV shows, noting each incident of foul language and sexual content.

Though parents are most concerned about sex and cursing, research director Melissa Caldwell says parents also are unhappy with TV's latest sitcom formula. "You have this phenomenon on shows such as According to Jim, My Wife and Kids, The Jason Alexander Show, in which the dad is kind of dumb and bumbling and the kids are smarter than the dad," says Caldwell.

"The way they appeal to young viewers is by showing kids who are smart-alecks to their parents," she says. "That's an attitude teenagers are predisposed to."

And given the rise of reality TV, children can learn snottiness from the master: American Idol judge Simon Cowell. The show is one of the top-rated programs among kids 2 to 11.

If there's anything kids do well, it's mimic.

"Psychologists love to slice it up many different ways," says Douglas Gentile, of the National Institute on Media and the Family, a nonpartisan group in Minneapolis. "But it boils down to this: Kids copy what they see on TV."

That's not breaking news to Tina Alenius.

One afternoon, Alenius says, her 5-year-old son was watching a cartoon, when the Winter Springs mom was stunned to hear a character blurt out, "You're such a butthead, Dad." She was more stunned when her son turned around and said, "You're such a butthead, Mom."

Two months ago, Alenius cut her cable service back to the basics: local channels and PBS. Her kids now watch one show each day: PBS' Between the Lions.

"I can't tell you the night-and-day difference since we eliminated that influence," Alenius says. "My kids are happier, and the attitude is gone." Reality of TV viewing

Americans have a love-hate affair with television.

For instance, a recent Time magazine poll found that more than half of the 1,010 people surveyed said there's too much violence, profanity and sex on TV. But most aren't offended by it and don't want it banned.

And despite research showing that TV violence isn't good for our kids, "most parents don't believe that," says Gentile, a psychology professor at Iowa State University.

Though some parents are concerned about TV's influence on their kids, most parents seem unfazed by the disrespectful fare found all over the dial.

Besides, society has changed, Gentile adds. "Kids have always been mean, but we used to be shocked by it," he says. "Now we think it's funny and cute and edgy."

Although Americans claim they want shows such as Leave It To Beaver and The Andy Griffith Show, it's unlikely those shows would succeed today.

"I don't know how you'd make a wholesome situation comedy today," says sociologist Ron Lembo of Amherst College. "What would that be about?"

Did television cause this change? Or are TV writers merely parroting what they see in everyday life?

"People in Hollywood say they're just reflecting society, but I fall into the camp that believes TV normalizes certain behaviors," Caldwell says. "They may take something that exists, but once you put something on TV that's a marginal behavior, then it's seen as acceptable and normal."

Kid programming

As cable television has become widespread, legions of parents feel comfortable letting their kids watch kid-oriented channels such as Cartoon Network, Nickelodeon and the Disney Channel.

But when Carmela Miller noticed that her 8-year-old granddaughter was mimicking teenage attitudes and facial expressions -- scrunching up her eyebrows or cocking her head -- Miller scrutinized the shows that Alexandra Mascolo was watching.

"A lot of the stations that you think are wonderful are not," says Miller, who lives in Winter Park. "They have all these girls talking back, making fun of others, and they have [mean] nicknames for everybody."

Miller now closely monitors some shows, including Disney's That's So Raven and Lizzie McGuire. "They're all teenagers on those shows and, honestly, that's beyond her," says Miller. Alexandra now watches animal shows and Disney Channel's Kim Possible.

Disney shows are by no means the worst, parents say.

"My daughter's into the Disney Channel," says Jacqueline Hunter of Kissimmee of 12-year-old Autumn. It could be much worse, says Hunter, who knows that her daughters' peers are watching racier stuff, including MTV and BET music videos.

But even she has quibbles about her daughter's favorite show, That's So Raven. Although Raven is a good girl, "she's spunky and a little sassy," says Hunter.

As the director of a community center, Hunter is dismayed by the "cockiness" she sees among the preteen and teenage girls.

"Part of it I just chalk up to growing pains. But typically the behaviors that are exhibited on TV show up in kids," Hunter says. "It seems like we parents have lost control because there are so many outside influences."

While some parents dream about throwing out their televisions, Joseph and Lisa Sabourin of Lake County have turned back the clock to the 1960s. Their daughters, Alecia, 9, and Aubrey, 11, don't watch much TV, but when they do, it's usually TV Land -- a retro cable channel that airs shows such as The Andy Griffith Show, The Brady Bunch and Gunsmoke.

The Sabourins also tune in on Sunday nights to watch ABC's feel-good reality show Extreme Makeover: Home Edition.

"And we might go over the edge as a family," says Joseph Sabourin with a laugh, "and sit down and watch Survivor."

We've seen the decline of manners, politeness, and respect over the years. Elders have always been saying that the youth have no respect. Could it be something as simple as the examples we see on TV? We emulate the clothes they wear and cars they drive, one liners and catchphrases, why not their attitudes?

lurkette · 04-27-2005, 12:30 PM

Absolutely we emulate what we see on tv, and why should kids be any different? They see behavior held up as the norm on television, but they will also see what other kids are doing and saying in real life. Whatever the model they're picking things up from, they're going to push the boundaries, see what they can get away with. And parents will get precisely the behavior they tolerate. It was ever thus, long before television.

Redlemon · 04-27-2005, 12:32 PM

I'd say that there is something to this. I've long believed that sitcoms also affect how people treat each other in relationships. My wife and I were both quite limited in what TV we were allowed to watch growing up, and had noticed a difference in how we treat each other vs what we saw among our college friends.

I also remember, back in Junior High, when all the "cool kids" had all these catch phrases. I wondered how they knew about them. Then I discovered they were repeating lines from television shows, and I thought that was pathetic. I've never been popular.

ARTelevision · 04-27-2005, 12:38 PM

Yes. The comfortable delusion that we are not greatly influenced by media is rampant. I don't think we'll ever really face the realities of all this in any significant way...

maleficent · 04-27-2005, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlemon

I've never been popular.

OhI think you're the bees knees...

I'm not so sure that it's television that causes the problem but rather the use of television as the babysitter and parents not taking an active role in the upbringing of their children. How many people have the telly on while having dinner, rather than communiticating with their children and taking an interest in their children's lives.

sapiens · 04-27-2005, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

I'm not so sure that it's television that causes the problem but rather the use of television as the babysitter and parents not taking an active role in the upbringing of their children. How many people have the telly on while having dinner, rather than communiticating with their children and taking an interest in their children's lives.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Parents need to be actively involved in monitoring what their children watch and teaching them how to behave properly.

Cynthetiq · 04-27-2005, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

You took the words right out of my mouth. Parents need to be actively involved in monitoring what their children watch and teaching them how to behave properly.

They do need to be actively involved. One of the parents in this article is doing such a thing and has noticed a decrease in bad behavior and is correlating the decrease in "bad" programming to better behavior.

Fourtyrulz · 04-27-2005, 01:00 PM

Quote:

OhI think you're the bees knees...

Well at least we know someone was a dork in high school.

maleficent · 04-27-2005, 01:04 PM

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Originally Posted by Fourtyrulz

Well at least we know someone was a dork in high school.

High school was more than 20 years ago... damned right I was a dork...

it just took me that long to realize it... Heck, I'm still a dork

It's part of my charm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

They do need to be actively involved. One of the parents in this article is doing such a thing and has noticed a decrease in bad behavior and is correlating the decrease in "bad" programming to better behavior.

That's really sad that they can't correlate increated attention to their children with an increase in good behavior... 2 x 4 to the head as a wake up call.

Lead543 · 04-27-2005, 01:06 PM

When my brother was about 7 he watched an episode of The Simpsons. That evening when my mom asked him to do something he responded with, "Eat my crusty shorts." He wasn't allowed to watch The Simpsons again until he was 15. I think some children are easily influenced by what they see on T.V. which is why it's important for parents to monitor what's being viewed according to their child's maturity level.

FngKestrel · 04-27-2005, 01:10 PM

I agree with the sentiment that active parenting has more to do with behavior.

But I will say that TV definitely has something to do with the decreased attention spans of children. With a commerical every twelve minutes, the brain can't focus on long term tasks.

Redlemon · 04-27-2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FngKestrel

But I will say that TV definitely has something to do with the decreased attention spans of children. With a commerical every twelve minutes, the brain can't focus on long term tasks.

And every problem can be resolved in a half-hour time period. If not, might as well break up with your SO.

Coppertop · 04-27-2005, 01:28 PM

Saw a t-shirt on a highschool kid today that said TV makes you smarter. I couldn't decide if it was serious or not. Either way I felt like smacking him. I find this works out best: everything in moderation - even moderation.

jaco · 04-27-2005, 01:30 PM

It's mindnumbing to me that parents who can't control their kids have to look for something to blame other than themselves. This has become the age of passing the buck. Far too many parents who are no better than children themselves with their self-centered lives and blame game ethics. But once again, It's so much easier to blame than to take responsibility for their own actions.

FngKestrel · 04-27-2005, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaco

It's mindnumbing to me that parents who can't control their kids have to look for something to blame other than themselves. This has become the age of passing the buck. Far too many parents who are no better than children themselves with their self-centered lives and blame game ethics. But once again, It's so much easier to blame than to take responsibility for their own actions.

"Blame Canada!"

radioguy · 04-27-2005, 01:52 PM

i believe television can have an effect on kids, but the parents can overturn those negative tendencies they pick up if they will spend time to teach their children appropriate behaviors. too many times, parents (which i am not one) plop their kids in front of the television so that they don't have to entertain them. parents must take responsibility for what they chose to bring into this world.

rainheart · 04-27-2005, 08:08 PM

This article brings to mind my little cousin who is 5 years old, who sits on the couch in front of his TV for the majority of the time after he's come home from school, watching cartoons. I can wholeheartedly understand where this article is coming from because I see the exact same problem present with my cousin and it breaks my heart to see him grow up like this, and yet I can't do too much since his father believes that he knows how to parent his child (but that's a different story).

Now my cousin has major behavioural problems, he is actually becoming very short tempered because he's allowed to watch the idiot box for way too long.

Now despite all of that, I really don't have anything to contribute to this thread because I completely agree with the idea that parents should be moderating what their children watch on TV and just getting more involved in their lives in general.

p.s. when I say major behavioural problems, it's because I have ridiculously high expectations of children that are blood related to me, don't ask me I picked it up from my dad.

snowy · 04-27-2005, 08:44 PM

Growing up I was allowed to choose what I wanted to watch on television. Of course my parents made it clear what was appropriate for me and what was not. We were allowed to watch the Simpsons, for example, but because of our parents' influence we didn't enjoy watching it until we were of an appropriate age to do so. I hope to raise my own children in such a manner that lets them know they can watch it if they want--but emulating attitudes and behavior found on television is not to be tolerated (my parents made this clear as well) and if they feel uncomfortable watching it they should turn it off--kids should never feel they have to watch something because their peers do (my mom always gave me the out--I could always blame it on her, even though she let me do what I wanted).

I think parental guidance is more important than moderation of television. Children are going to be exposed to sex and violence regardless; it's up to the parents to put those things in context and let children know that television shows are FICTION.

rat · 04-27-2005, 08:51 PM

didn't matter what i watched growing up (unless it was porn), my dad's leather belt set the standard--not the television. first rated "R" movies for me were Terminator 2 and Lethal Weapon 3--when I was in 4th grade. watched 'em without the folks in the basement and my mom rented them for me. to this day, my dad gets complimented on the behavior and success of his children, and my mother does as well. while I do believe environmental inputs do affect our behavior, if certain concrete limits are established in such a way that they do not fade, inputs don't mean squat. There's a day I'll be larger than my father, but I'll never physically challenge him with the intent to actually have one of us come to harm (we still wrestle and bs around as it is). It's because that belt is something i'll always remember.

d*d · 04-28-2005, 03:26 AM

i watched tv as a kid, so did my friends and I think we'll survive - tv is a wonderful medium for communicating ideas and connecting cultures, bad parenting should have no excuse.
ART is right about people underestimating the effect the media has on us, it forms the world around us, many of our values are formed through the media it creates a framework in which we can interact. What tv cannot do is change people if your kid shows you no respect by quoting tv quips take away the tv and your stil left with a kid who shows you no respect but will find other ways to express this.
Why not try watching the tv with the kids

hulk · 04-28-2005, 04:53 AM

I knew all these kids, see. They were cute and polite and helped out their parents. All of a sudden, as if overnight, they turned into rude, emotional punks.

TV is to blame for puberty!

Seeker · 04-28-2005, 05:37 AM

Quote:

"It seems like we parents have lost control because there are so many outside influences."

I personally banned 'attitude' shows. My pet hate here in Australia is Home & Away, and we also get the sassy teenage shows on cable. My daughter and I have had many a conversation about attitude and many of the 'attitude' shows. Where I fall over is all of her friends have this sassy attitude. Not that I've failed, she seems to have two personalities, one for home and one for her friends and you can see the stress when both her friends and I are in earshot. She doesn't know what to do or say!

It's a tough call though, her friends are her peers and this will be her world when she gets older. If I stiffle it too much then she won't fit in or cope. I just try to temper a bit of regard throughout our banter, what else can I do?

Edit: What frustrates me most, is the fact that there are many parents that accept this behaviour, I'm banging my head against a brick wall because what the majority of you are saying is correct - parents are no longer parents and it really frustrates me because I am doing more than my best to try and fight this, how can one person win???

Redlemon · 04-28-2005, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker

Where I fall over is all of her friends have this sassy attitude. Not that I've failed, she seems to have two personalities, one for home and one for her friends and you can see the stress when both her friends and I are in earshot. She doesn't know what to do or say!

Actually, I'd say that you did well. It sounds like she understands that there different circumstances where different behaviors are appropriate.

ARTelevision · 04-28-2005, 05:48 AM

Good question Seeker, and not one easily addressed - especially by the "parental responsibility" shibboleth.

I find it quite unconvincing that a parental unit is seen as somehow having the ability to negate the influence of sophisticated hundreds-of-millions-of-dollar media blitzes, the amassed effects of a total-surround-environment of media manipulation, the assembled manifold of social, cultural, and peer pressure. It sounds good, I suppose, to recite the parental-responsibility slogans but I cannot envision a parent or parents with the necessary superhuman power to effectively repel these influences.

d*d · 04-28-2005, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker

she seems to have two personalities, one for home and one for her friends and you can see the stress when both her friends and I are in earshot. She doesn't know what to do or say!

This is not uncommon, every teenage kid has parent behaviour and friend behaviour, in fact I'm nearly thirty and I still act differently around my parents than I do round my friends

Bill O'Rights · 04-28-2005, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker

Not that I've failed, she seems to have two personalities, one for home and one for her friends and you can see the stress when both her friends and I are in earshot. She doesn't know what to do or say!

I'd say that is exactly what should happen. It's kinda fun watching my daughter do it. She looks like her head's gonna explode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker

It's a tough call though, her friends are her peers and this will be her world when she gets older. If I stiffle it too much then she won't fit in or cope. I just try to temper a bit of regard throughout our banter, what else can I do?

I think that you're doing exactly what you should be doing.

d*d · 04-28-2005, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

I find it quite unconvincing that a parental unit is seen as somehow having the ability to negate the influence of sophisticated hundreds-of-millions-of-dollar media blitzes, the amassed effects of a total-surround-environment of media manipulation,

You seem to suggest that the media is not just an influence but a controlling factor to which we are helples against, all media feeds us is information - it's communication, it can a imbue a can of coke with a system of values by suggestion and placement but if you don't like coke you won't drink it, we have an amazing capacity to filter out information and more importantly to judge it's worth

Seeker · 04-28-2005, 05:55 AM

Exactly Art, check my edit!

Seeker · 04-28-2005, 05:59 AM

Thanks everyone

, lets start a mass media run on parenting... like the same sort of thing Jamie is doing with school lunches. Parenting is a job, it takes a lot of hard work and dedication.

d*d, who teaches people how to filter out these influenses?

sapiens · 04-28-2005, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

Good question Seeker, and not one easily addressed - especially by the "parental responsibility" shibboleth.

I find it quite unconvincing that a parental unit is seen as somehow having the ability to negate the influence of sophisticated hundreds-of-millions-of-dollar media blitzes, the amassed effects of a total-surround-environment of media manipulation, the assembled manifold of social, cultural, and peer pressure. It sounds good, I suppose, to recite the parental-responsibility slogans but I cannot envision a parent or parents with the necessary superhuman power to effectively repel these influences.

I know that there are other threads available for discussing media influence, but I'll just say that I disagree with your characterization of the media as this all encompassing force that is more powerful than other social influences. I'm familiar with the media influence literature, and I just don't buy it. It certainly has effects (effects demonstrated in research on the topic), but I don't think it requires "superhuman power" for parents to influence their children above and beyond the media.

I also wouldn't characterize statements about parental responsibility as just "slogans". Parents exert a great deal of social influence over their children. It's evident in the article and has been demonstrated empirically elswhere.

d*d · 04-28-2005, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker

d*d, who teaches people how to filter out these influenses?

Nobody it's called selective perception we do it without even noticing, if you and I were to walk down the same street at the same time and then describe what we saw we would both give different accounts, this is why when you buy a new car you suddenly notice how many other people have the same one, you just didn't notice them before

Gilda · 04-28-2005, 08:21 AM

Obviously media have an influence on us at all ages. I'm closing in on 30 and I was devastated by a tv cop show a couple of nights ago.

Children aren't little adults with less knowledge; their minds work on some fundamentally different levels than do those of teens or adults. They're less able to make distinctions between fiction and reality, especially in early childhood and in the teen years.

Seeing the disrespect that tv children show their parents and elders may plant the seed that such behavior is appropriate. If they haven't been given clear, consistent guidelines, the only way they have of knowing what is and is not acceptable is to test their new knowledge, hence, what is seen as deliberate misbehavior may be little more than the child exploring boundaries. This doesn't excuse the behavior; parants need to react to such exploration by setting those boundries firmly and consistently.

-----------------

I've seen this influence first hand. I had a student last year, a preteen boy, who would come to class and start making racist remarks about blacks, using racial epithets, at one point during a discussion shouting "white power" while thrusting a fist in the air, which some of the other boys in class thought was "cool". Repeated detentions, calls home, and a Saturday school had no effect.

The boy's excuse was that he wasn't being racist, he was just repeating a comedy routine from a tv show in which a blind black man, thinking he was white, said these things, which apparently makes it ok for a white kid to say them in school.

It wasn't until we had a conference, during which the boy continued to defend his behavior, saying it wasn't he who was saying these things, it was the guy on the tv show, and he was just repeating them* because they were funny. Mom really didn't believe that he was standing up in class and shouting "white power" and discussing the merits of white supremecist music until he started defending those things in front of her, using the "it's not me, it's the tv show" thing as an excuse. A ban on the show was the ultimate result, resulting in greatly improved, though not completely extinquished (his friends would record the show for him so he could sneak off and watch it).

*This is one of those semantic games students play in which they make a meaningless distinction to defend inappropriate behavior. The basic form is, "It's not A, it's A subcategory B" ie, it's not a hat, it's a beanie, or I'm not saying racist things, I'm repeating them. Most students come to understand quickly that hairsplitting doesn't cut it in my classes.

ObieX · 04-28-2005, 08:23 AM

Kids have been disobedient since the beginning of time. The only difference now is parents cant beat their children into submission without them being taken away by the state.

OFKU0 · 04-28-2005, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

I know that there are other threads available for discussing media influence, but I'll just say that I disagree with your characterization of the media as this all encompassing force that is more powerful than other social influences. I'm familiar with the media influence literature, and I just don't buy it. It certainly has effects, but I don't think it requires "superhuman power" for parents to influence their children above and beyond the media.

I also wouldn't characterize statements about parental responsibility as just "slogans". Parents exert a great deal of social influence over their children. It's evident in the article and has been demonstrated empirically elswhere.

I agree with that 100%. What people often tend to recite is that t.v., movies, books, cartoons etc,...affect all kids equally and that all kids are predisposed to the same mindnumbing multimedia derivatives which somewhat shape their attitude or mindset. I for one don't agree with that.

What people (adults) don't like to admit too is that kids, some as young as 7 or 8 depending on there maturity level, are individuals who are forming their thinking and opinion patterns. One kid may mimic an attitude for their reasons while another kid may think that attitude is stupid and childish. These difference discount the swath of stereotypical assumptions that a greater force, that being multimedia is taking over and controlling the minds of kids to the point of no return equally.

Of course multimedia affects kids as it does adults. Some people, however young or old have the ability to see and understand it for what it is and use it for their benefit or even ignore it rather than others who seemingly are shaped and molded by it. Everyone is individual with individual thoughts. Some people think for themselves while others need someone to tell them how and what to think. Horses for courses.

Coppertop · 04-28-2005, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

I know that there are other threads available for discussing media influence, but I'll just say that I disagree with your characterization of the media as this all encompassing force that is more powerful than other social influences. I'm familiar with the media influence literature, and I just don't buy it. It certainly has effects, but I don't think it requires "superhuman power" for parents to influence their children above and beyond the media.

I also wouldn't characterize statements about parental responsibility as just "slogans". Parents exert a great deal of social influence over their children. It's evident in the article and has been demonstrated empirically elswhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OFKU0

I agree with that 100%. What people often tend to recite is that t.v., movies, books, cartoons etc,...affect all kids equally and that all kids are predisposed to the same mindnumbing multimedia derivatives which somewhat shape their attitude or mindset. I for one don't agree with that.

What people (adults) don't like to admit too is that kids, some as young as 7 or 8 depending on there maturity level, are individuals who are forming their thinking and opinion patterns. One kid may mimic an attitude for their reasons while another kid may think that attitude is stupid and childish. These difference discount the swath of stereotypical assumptions that a greater force, that being multimedia is taking over and controlling the minds of kids to the point of no return equally.

Of course multimedia affects kids as it does adults. Some people, however young or old have the ability to see and understand it for what it is and use it for their benefit or even ignore it rather than others who seemingly are shaped and molded by it. Everyone is individual with individual thoughts. Some people think for themselves while others need someone to tell them how and what to think. Horses for courses.

Amen to these sentiments. The media are not all powerful. Parents have influence over their children before media are even recognized by children. This isn't to say the media have no effect, just that some make the media out to be larger boogiemen than they are. The parent who loses respect with their preteen due to a television show never had great respect from their child in the first place, I would wager. And this is all too often what we see in society currently.

ARTelevision · 04-28-2005, 11:31 AM

Yes I always appreciate optimism.
In this area however I think we tend to flatter ourselves.

Some situations are hard to accept.

powerclown · 04-28-2005, 12:47 PM

Interesting discussion.

I wouldn't say that TV is soley to blame for bad kids, but it sure as hell isn't an environment conducive to the well-being of a child. Cartoons like Ed, Edd and Eddy, RugRats - all that shit on the Cartoon Channel - are to a child's intellectual development what McDonalds is to their nutritional development. Its a nonstop barrage of insults, screaming, teasing, flicking boogers and laughing, cliques portraying the 'cool' kids (heros) vs the 'nerds' (losers), mom and dad as 'fairly odd parents' who are off in LaLa Land somewhere to be mocked or ignored. Even the way the cartoons are drawn is bizarre. In Ed, Edd and Eddy, the lines of the figures are in constant motion, shifting, twitching and shaking, like they're on a caffeine or coke fix. Eyes buggin out and crosseyed.

It is pure anarchy, marketed to 5 year old human beings. One has to wonder what the point of it all is.

Seeker · 04-28-2005, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d*d

Nobody it's called selective perception we do it without even noticing, if you and I were to walk down the same street at the same time and then describe what we saw we would both give different accounts, this is why when you buy a new car you suddenly notice how many other people have the same one, you just didn't notice them before

d*d, I agree with this. I am taking this one step further, I'm looking at it in the light that our mindset will effect what we perceive. It's not noticable until it touches our life in some way. Is television creating childrens (and societies) mindset?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

I disagree with your characterization of the media as this all encompassing force that is more powerful than other social influences

Quote:

Originally Posted by OFKU0

Some people, however young or old have the ability to see and understand it for what it is and use it for their benefit or even ignore it rather than others who seemingly are shaped and molded by it.

sapiens & OFKU0, I can agree with your arguements however when you couple the media influences with the fact that parents generally dont invest the time or interest to counter these media influences, it is an issue that has snowballed and from where I stand, I feel like I need to be super-human to make any difference or at least temper it in my own home.

Seeker · 04-28-2005, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coppertop

Amen to these sentiments. The media are not all powerful. Parents have influence over their children before media are even recognized by children. This isn't to say the media have no effect, just that some make the media out to be larger boogiemen than they are. The parent who loses respect with their preteen due to a television show never had great respect from their child in the first place, I would wager. And this is all too often what we see in society currently.

Coppertop, yes I'd agree with the bolded above. I can't help but feel sometimes that the media are clever enough to play on all of this. If it is intentional or not is another thing, but I can't help but wonder how far this can diminish before people wake up and at least recognise these very issues.

Xell101 · 04-28-2005, 04:22 PM

You should check this article out.

Quote:

When he isn't pondering the inner workings of the mind, Read Montague, a 43-year-old neuroscientist at Baylor College of Medicine, has been known to contemplate the other mysteries of life: for instance, the Pepsi Challenge. In the series of TV commercials from the 70's and 80's that pitted Coke against Pepsi in a blind taste test, Pepsi was usually the winner. So why, Montague asked himself not long ago, did Coke appeal so strongly to so many people if it didn't taste any better?

Over several months this past summer, Montague set to work looking for a scientifically convincing answer. He assembled a group of test subjects and, while monitoring their brain activity with an M.R.I. machine, recreated the Pepsi Challenge. His results confirmed those of the TV campaign: Pepsi tended to produce a stronger response than Coke in the brain's ventral putamen, a region thought to process feelings of reward. (Monkeys, for instance, exhibit activity in the ventral putamen when they receive food for completing a task.) Indeed, in people who preferred Pepsi, the ventral putamen was five times as active when drinking Pepsi than that of Coke fans when drinking Coke.

In the real world, of course, taste is not everything. So Montague tried to gauge the appeal of Coke's image, its "brand influence," by repeating the experiment with a small variation: this time, he announced which of the sample tastes were Coke. The outcome was remarkable: almost all the subjects said they preferred Coke. What's more, the brain activity of the subjects was now different. There was also activity in the medial prefrontal cortex, an area of the brain that scientists say governs high-level cognitive powers. Apparently, the subjects were meditating in a more sophisticated way on the taste of Coke, allowing memories and other impressions of the drink -- in a word, its brand -- to shape their preference.

Pepsi, crucially, couldn't achieve the same effect. When Montague reversed the situation, announcing which tastes were of Pepsi, far fewer of the subjects said they preferred Pepsi. Montague was impressed: he had demonstrated, with a fair degree of neuroscientific precision, the special power of Coke's brand to override our taste buds.

Material like this bothers me. It seems as though marketing wizards are gunnin' to pervert social functions for capatalistic purposes.

04-27-2005, 12:30 PM	#2 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	Absolutely we emulate what we see on tv, and why should kids be any different? They see behavior held up as the norm on television, but they will also see what other kids are doing and saying in real life. Whatever the model they're picking things up from, they're going to push the boundaries, see what they can get away with. And parents will get precisely the behavior they tolerate. It was ever thus, long before television. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

04-27-2005, 12:32 PM	#3 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	I'd say that there is something to this. I've long believed that sitcoms also affect how people treat each other in relationships. My wife and I were both quite limited in what TV we were allowed to watch growing up, and had noticed a difference in how we treat each other vs what we saw among our college friends. I also remember, back in Junior High, when all the "cool kids" had all these catch phrases. I wondered how they knew about them. Then I discovered they were repeating lines from television shows, and I thought that was pathetic. I've never been popular. __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

04-27-2005, 12:38 PM	#4 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Yes. The comfortable delusion that we are not greatly influenced by media is rampant. I don't think we'll ever really face the realities of all this in any significant way... __________________ create evolution

04-27-2005, 01:30 PM	#14 (permalink)
jaco Crazy	It's mindnumbing to me that parents who can't control their kids have to look for something to blame other than themselves. This has become the age of passing the buck. Far too many parents who are no better than children themselves with their self-centered lives and blame game ethics. But once again, It's so much easier to blame than to take responsibility for their own actions. __________________ "How soft your fields so green, Can whisper tales of gore" "Thou art god"

04-27-2005, 08:08 PM	#17 (permalink)
rainheart Psycho	This article brings to mind my little cousin who is 5 years old, who sits on the couch in front of his TV for the majority of the time after he's come home from school, watching cartoons. I can wholeheartedly understand where this article is coming from because I see the exact same problem present with my cousin and it breaks my heart to see him grow up like this, and yet I can't do too much since his father believes that he knows how to parent his child (but that's a different story). Now my cousin has major behavioural problems, he is actually becoming very short tempered because he's allowed to watch the idiot box for way too long. Now despite all of that, I really don't have anything to contribute to this thread because I completely agree with the idea that parents should be moderating what their children watch on TV and just getting more involved in their lives in general. p.s. when I say major behavioural problems, it's because I have ridiculously high expectations of children that are blood related to me, don't ask me I picked it up from my dad. Last edited by rainheart; 04-27-2005 at 08:17 PM..

04-27-2005, 01:06 PM	#10 (permalink)
Lead543 Registered User Location: Calgary	When my brother was about 7 he watched an episode of The Simpsons. That evening when my mom asked him to do something he responded with, "Eat my crusty shorts." He wasn't allowed to watch The Simpsons again until he was 15. I think some children are easily influenced by what they see on T.V. which is why it's important for parents to monitor what's being viewed according to their child's maturity level.

04-27-2005, 01:10 PM	#11 (permalink)
FngKestrel Junkie	I agree with the sentiment that active parenting has more to do with behavior. But I will say that TV definitely has something to do with the decreased attention spans of children. With a commerical every twelve minutes, the brain can't focus on long term tasks.

04-27-2005, 01:28 PM	#13 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	Saw a t-shirt on a highschool kid today that said TV makes you smarter. I couldn't decide if it was serious or not. Either way I felt like smacking him. I find this works out best: everything in moderation - even moderation.

04-27-2005, 01:52 PM	#16 (permalink)
radioguy Registered User Location: Texas	i believe television can have an effect on kids, but the parents can overturn those negative tendencies they pick up if they will spend time to teach their children appropriate behaviors. too many times, parents (which i am not one) plop their kids in front of the television so that they don't have to entertain them. parents must take responsibility for what they chose to bring into this world.

04-27-2005, 08:44 PM	#18 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	Growing up I was allowed to choose what I wanted to watch on television. Of course my parents made it clear what was appropriate for me and what was not. We were allowed to watch the Simpsons, for example, but because of our parents' influence we didn't enjoy watching it until we were of an appropriate age to do so. I hope to raise my own children in such a manner that lets them know they can watch it if they want--but emulating attitudes and behavior found on television is not to be tolerated (my parents made this clear as well) and if they feel uncomfortable watching it they should turn it off--kids should never feel they have to watch something because their peers do (my mom always gave me the out--I could always blame it on her, even though she let me do what I wanted). I think parental guidance is more important than moderation of television. Children are going to be exposed to sex and violence regardless; it's up to the parents to put those things in context and let children know that television shows are FICTION. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

04-28-2005, 03:26 AM	#20 (permalink)
d*d Addict	i watched tv as a kid, so did my friends and I think we'll survive - tv is a wonderful medium for communicating ideas and connecting cultures, bad parenting should have no excuse. ART is right about people underestimating the effect the media has on us, it forms the world around us, many of our values are formed through the media it creates a framework in which we can interact. What tv cannot do is change people if your kid shows you no respect by quoting tv quips take away the tv and your stil left with a kid who shows you no respect but will find other ways to express this. Why not try watching the tv with the kids

04-28-2005, 04:53 AM	#21 (permalink)
hulk C'mon, just blow it. Location: Perth, Australia	I knew all these kids, see. They were cute and polite and helped out their parents. All of a sudden, as if overnight, they turned into rude, emotional punks. TV is to blame for puberty! __________________ "'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex." -- From an IGN game review.

04-28-2005, 05:48 AM	#24 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Good question Seeker, and not one easily addressed - especially by the "parental responsibility" shibboleth. I find it quite unconvincing that a parental unit is seen as somehow having the ability to negate the influence of sophisticated hundreds-of-millions-of-dollar media blitzes, the amassed effects of a total-surround-environment of media manipulation, the assembled manifold of social, cultural, and peer pressure. It sounds good, I suppose, to recite the parental-responsibility slogans but I cannot envision a parent or parents with the necessary superhuman power to effectively repel these influences. __________________ create evolution

04-28-2005, 05:55 AM	#28 (permalink)
Seeker Getting Clearer Location: with spirit	Exactly Art, check my edit! __________________ *To those who wander but who are not lost...* ~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

04-28-2005, 05:59 AM	#29 (permalink)
Seeker Getting Clearer Location: with spirit	Thanks everyone , lets start a mass media run on parenting... like the same sort of thing Jamie is doing with school lunches. Parenting is a job, it takes a lot of hard work and dedication. dd, who teaches people how to filter out these influenses? __________________ To those who wander but who are not lost...* ~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to. Last edited by Seeker; 04-28-2005 at 06:36 AM..

04-28-2005, 08:21 AM	#32 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	Obviously media have an influence on us at all ages. I'm closing in on 30 and I was devastated by a tv cop show a couple of nights ago. Children aren't little adults with less knowledge; their minds work on some fundamentally different levels than do those of teens or adults. They're less able to make distinctions between fiction and reality, especially in early childhood and in the teen years. Seeing the disrespect that tv children show their parents and elders may plant the seed that such behavior is appropriate. If they haven't been given clear, consistent guidelines, the only way they have of knowing what is and is not acceptable is to test their new knowledge, hence, what is seen as deliberate misbehavior may be little more than the child exploring boundaries. This doesn't excuse the behavior; parants need to react to such exploration by setting those boundries firmly and consistently. ----------------- I've seen this influence first hand. I had a student last year, a preteen boy, who would come to class and start making racist remarks about blacks, using racial epithets, at one point during a discussion shouting "white power" while thrusting a fist in the air, which some of the other boys in class thought was "cool". Repeated detentions, calls home, and a Saturday school had no effect. The boy's excuse was that he wasn't being racist, he was just repeating a comedy routine from a tv show in which a blind black man, thinking he was white, said these things, which apparently makes it ok for a white kid to say them in school. It wasn't until we had a conference, during which the boy continued to defend his behavior, saying it wasn't he who was saying these things, it was the guy on the tv show, and he was just repeating them* because they were funny. Mom really didn't believe that he was standing up in class and shouting "white power" and discussing the merits of white supremecist music until he started defending those things in front of her, using the "it's not me, it's the tv show" thing as an excuse. A ban on the show was the ultimate result, resulting in greatly improved, though not completely extinquished (his friends would record the show for him so he could sneak off and watch it). *This is one of those semantic games students play in which they make a meaningless distinction to defend inappropriate behavior. The basic form is, "It's not A, it's A subcategory B" ie, it's not a hat, it's a beanie, or I'm not saying racist things, I'm repeating them. Most students come to understand quickly that hairsplitting doesn't cut it in my classes.

04-28-2005, 08:23 AM	#33 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	Kids have been disobedient since the beginning of time. The only difference now is parents cant beat their children into submission without them being taken away by the state. __________________ We Must Dissent.

04-28-2005, 11:31 AM	#36 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Yes I always appreciate optimism. In this area however I think we tend to flatter ourselves. Some situations are hard to accept. __________________ create evolution

04-28-2005, 12:47 PM	#37 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	Interesting discussion. I wouldn't say that TV is soley to blame for bad kids, but it sure as hell isn't an environment conducive to the well-being of a child. Cartoons like Ed, Edd and Eddy, RugRats - all that shit on the Cartoon Channel - are to a child's intellectual development what McDonalds is to their nutritional development. Its a nonstop barrage of insults, screaming, teasing, flicking boogers and laughing, cliques portraying the 'cool' kids (heros) vs the 'nerds' (losers), mom and dad as 'fairly odd parents' who are off in LaLa Land somewhere to be mocked or ignored. Even the way the cartoons are drawn is bizarre. In Ed, Edd and Eddy, the lines of the figures are in constant motion, shifting, twitching and shaking, like they're on a caffeine or coke fix. Eyes buggin out and crosseyed. It is pure anarchy, marketed to 5 year old human beings. One has to wonder what the point of it all is.