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Old 04-19-2005, 10:23 AM   #1 (permalink)
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No Sir, Yes Ma'am

One of my bestest buds lives in the cute state of Louisiana and her sweet little son is being brought up in the proper southern tradition of respecting his elders. Nothing wrong with that at all.. It's cute.. When I call, and he answers the phone, (he's 8) He knows my Yankee accent, and is very respectful with his Yes Ma'ams and No Ma'ams and Thank you ma'ams. (He even addresses me by Miss Maryellen. It's very sweet.

But... I honestly hate being called Ma'am. It makes me feel older than I already am. Ma'am is a contraction for Madame, or rather old married lady. I am not married, being a lady is often questionable, and while I am maybe older, I am not old. My mother is a Ma'am. I am not.

When I was a kid, my parents friends were all referred to by Mrs and Mr... whatever ... and rather than No, ma'am or no sir, we'd get smacked into the next galaxy, if no or yes or please wasn't followed by a thank you.

I've had this discussion with friends who also bristle at being called Sir.. .they will usually turn around and look for their fathers.

How do you feel about being called ma'am or sir? How were you raised to refer to your elders, and how are your own children being raised. Is ma'am and sir, just being polite?
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Old 04-19-2005, 10:32 AM   #2 (permalink)
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It's hilarious at work when I get called sir. I need a dungeon or something to put people in when they do that. My children have been taught to refer to people as Mr. Blah or Mrs. Blah, and when they don't know someone's name, just politely ask.

Please and Thank You are big ones in my house though, and the kids know it. Manners go a long way in regards to how others view you.
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Old 04-19-2005, 10:39 AM   #3 (permalink)
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See, I think bristling at being called "ma'am" or "sir" is a little weird. They are just polite pronouns for a woman or man. However, I have had a couple men tell me not to call them sir and laugh when I'm at work. It do it almost mechanically, and it's not that I'm assuming they are older! However, when I know their names, I always use that instead.

If someone called me 'ma'am' I would have no issue with it. It's like calling me Mrs. instead of Miss because I'm not married. An example of how pronouns are just used as polite terms is my mom. She has never liked the idea that she is "stuck" with a man, despite being married for 25 years or so to my dad. She tells people to refer to her as Miss rather than Mrs., despite being a married woman. Like that, how would anyone know if they are in wrong for calling someone "ma'am" if they aren't told?

If your friend's son calls you ma'am, just tell him to refer to you as Miss Maryellen, like you said, or however else you want to be refered as. He doesn't mean to do any harm with his politeness, nor do his parents.
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Old 04-19-2005, 10:44 AM   #4 (permalink)
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My dad is a Boy Scout leader, as am I.

The boys in our troop range from the ages of 11 to 18. When they address me as Mr. I always look around for my dad. It's weird, I'm only 35 and don't consider that a Mr. yet. To me that still is my dad.
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Old 04-19-2005, 10:46 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Having many friends from the south, I guess I'm quite used to it. It's secondary nature. One of my best friends always says 'Ma'am' in answering yes or no and he's a whole 6 years younger than I am!
Think of it in terms of a respectful upbringing of that person instead of a reflection of your own age. Hell, I don't need reminders of that-I have mirrors!
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Old 04-19-2005, 10:53 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Yes, I take "Ma'am" as an insult. I start looking around for the old lady when I hear that. Personally I'd never use Ma'am for anyone under 60.

The first time someone ever called me Ma'am, I was 21 years old (looked about 14) and it was the neighbor's gutter punk teenage runaway daughter asking me for change on the street. I told her I'd give her change if she never called me Ma'am again and wrote it off as a total lack of social understanding.

I wasn't raised to call my elders Ma'am or sir, and we called my parents' friends by whatever their names were, like "Phil," "John" and "Janis." I picked up Ma'am and Sir somewhere along the line I guess, but I only use it for older folks, in order to adapt to terms of address they are probably more comfortable with, or when the situation calls for making a point of showing respect.

Edit - I guess I don't take it as an intentional insult to be called Ma'am, but still I wonder exactly how old I'm looking today when I hear it, which is rarely by the way. I guess this is just a regional difference sorta thing. If someone with a southern accent said it, I'd be less likely to take offense because I'd just figure they had a different custom.

Last edited by Squishor; 04-19-2005 at 10:57 AM..
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Old 04-19-2005, 10:58 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Having been raised by free-willed hippies, I was raised to have respect for everyone. I believe that if you hold everyone to a certain level of respect (until they give you reason not to) there is no requirement for the use of "sir, ma'am, mister, misses" or anything along those lines. I call most people by their first names, aside from those in a professional setting whom I do not know and am introduced to by last name (professors, bosses, et cetera). When I was younger, I also called all adults by Mister/Misses/Miss and their surname until I became more familiar and amiable with them.

If one is too strict with making their child use politeness and niceities, then the child may not actually have any respect for anyone, and simply use those niceities because that is how they were raised.
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Old 04-19-2005, 11:04 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I take statement as a sign of respect being given like a compliment. it's a bit awkward to receive, but needs to be received graciously just like a complement.

I too don't think that I'm old enough to wear that badge, but I honestly am. I don't look it either.
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Old 04-19-2005, 11:08 AM   #9 (permalink)
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On a Celebrity cruise, all the personnel refer to the passengers as Sir or Madame (accent on the second 'a' ... Mah-DAWM). When you are served, they offer the plate with a "sir" or "madame."

In fact, they are so engrained with this courtesy that a passing passenger sneezed and without losing a step, the steward said, "Bless you, madame."
Very funny.

MTC, when it is pronounced that way, it is a very formal way to address a female. When pronounced, Ma'am or MAD-am, i HATE IT!
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Old 04-19-2005, 11:11 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Disclaimer: I was perfectly honest here, and that might be a bad thing....

Being born and raised in the South, I know that children are brought up saying it as a sign of respect for elders. However, it stays through adulthood and becomes simply a sign of respect. I use it all the time and never once make a distinction in my usage based on the age of the recipient. I refer to women "clearly" younger than me as ma'am. I refer to women older than me as ma'am. I ALWAYS use it when dealing with a Southern woman because I know it is appropriate and appreciated. However, as I have gotten older and because I have some customer service in my job that has me speaking to people all over the country - I have mostly converted my "Pardon me ma'am...." into "Pardon me miss...." Honestly, the primary reasoning behind this change was to appease hyper-sensitive Northern women that think I am calling them old when I'm trying to be polite. I believe it is the only PC change I have ever made in my life.

Being from the north, I can see how you would get confused. Instead of, "Pardon me ma'am, may I get past you?" you are used to "Out of my way, bitch!" Personally, I would prefer the former.

So, if it were me - I would allow the child to continue to use ma'am, even with you. After all, he is being raised properly for his region and will encounter FAR more Southerners than Northerners. If you have him try to make an exception with you, you could confuse the issue for him and discourage him from using it. He won't understand where to draw the line. Regardless of how you "take it", he means it as a sign of respect. Good for him and his parents in recognizing the importance of manners!
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Old 04-19-2005, 11:19 AM   #11 (permalink)
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When my family moved from Mobile, Alabama to Seattle, Washington my sister got into trouble at school for saying yes and no ma'am. Her teacher thought she was being sarcastic.

I think that the trouble is that Ma'am and Sir are honorifics that imply a certain amount of respect; when the person it is being assigned to does not think they are worthy of that respect then it can become uncomfortable.

For instance if someone started to address "your Majesty" then it could rightly be assumed that they were making fun of you. However, Sir and Ma'am as you said are used to refer to people of refinement, like your parents. When someone uses the honorific they are saying that you should be respected as an adult, so if you take exception to it you are in the tricky situation of explaining that you should not be considered an adult.

Ma'am is indeed a contraction for Madame but it does not mean an old married woman, just a woman and especially one who is married. Miss is for an unmarried woman only. Someone who does not know you will have to pick a form of address and since Ma'am can go either way it became the default; after they came to know you better they could switch to Miss or keep on using Ma'am. Miss would only be used in situations where you can be reasonably certain the person you are addressing is not married. Men are easier off because Sir can work for any man regardless of marriage status.

So basically I think the problem is that people are being assigned more respect than they think they deserve. The only solutions I can see are to either frequently correct people or raise your self respect to match the implied status.
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Old 04-19-2005, 11:20 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Ma'am and Sir are used as a title of respect, at least that's what we were taught as children. I cannot understand why an adult should be upset in the least by being addressed with a title of respect unless it is used in a derogatory way like, "You sir are a cad", and even then it is better than being called just a cad without the sir, I think,
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Old 04-19-2005, 11:24 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Yes, I like it very much. It's about time we revive a bit of polite society and decorum in our cultural wastleand. Being polite isn't a matter of political correctness or whatever, it's just you know, nice and pleasant. Who could argue with that?

I was at a bus stop when a kid (12-14yrs old) glared at an old lady and said "Whaddya lookin' at BITCH?". How did we devolve so low (I'll refrain form the typical scapegoats - rap music, dysfunctional familie, TV etc)?

Maleficent, please don't get offended at someone calling you ma'am. It's kind of sweet. There are much worse things to be called as someone mentioned above.

I've had professors who would address the students as sir or ma'am and it was reciprocated in kind as well. I refuse to call my professors by their first name (as many of the liberal ones insist). It's the same with greeting. People don't greet each other anymore. I always like to see people's faces light up when you say, "howdy ma'am or god afternoon sir". There are certain words that never go out of style: please, thank you, how are you, excuse me, pleasant day, sir, ma'am etc.
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Old 04-19-2005, 11:26 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cimarron29414
Being from the north, I can see how you would get confused. Instead of, "Pardon me ma'am, may I get past you?" you are used to "Out of my way, bitch!" Personally, I would prefer the former.
I'm from New York/New Jersey.. I take no offence to the latter at all...

Years back when I was a store manager for a retailer, I had a bunch of Indian employees. As part of their upbringing, they were very respectful towards management, but their culture (I'm guessing) was also somewhat chauvenistic, and didn't quite always know how to deal with women in authority. Because I was the big boss, I naturally had the title of Sir.. because big bosses were called Sir.. but the problem was I was a ma'am -- so half of them use to call me Ma'am Sir... first time it was explained to me why they did it, I almost died laughing...
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Old 04-19-2005, 11:34 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Being called "Sir" can be quite aging. Especially when it comes from someone only a few years younger than you. It bothered me when it first started happening but now I've come to accept it. I'm getting older. Might as well try to do it gracefully. Kicking and screaming was only making it harder
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Old 04-19-2005, 11:36 AM   #16 (permalink)
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That's funny! I think it's a legacy/remnant of the British colonial system or what-have-you.

I think even now, if you're a lady judge, barrister or solicitor, you're referred to as "sir". Also in some academic circles, many honors and awards are accorded on you as a "sir" even if you're a "ma'am".
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Old 04-19-2005, 11:47 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cimarron29414
Being from the north, I can see how you would get confused. Instead of, "Pardon me ma'am, may I get past you?" you are used to "Out of my way, bitch!" Personally, I would prefer the former.
I'm from California. If someone said that to me I'd be scarred for life and have to take up Chi Gung, acupuncture and rebirthing therapy to recover from the shock!
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Old 04-19-2005, 11:48 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cimarron29414
However, as I have gotten older and because I have some customer service in my job that has me speaking to people all over the country - I have mostly converted my "Pardon me ma'am...." into "Pardon me miss...." Honestly, the primary reasoning behind this change was to appease hyper-sensitive Northern women that think I am calling them old when I'm trying to be polite.
Hypersensitive? Cool!

my friend in Louisiana tells me I only object to ma'am because the right cowboy hasn't said ma'am in the proper way to me yet... here's hoping...

I travel a lot, and am seeing it more and more among the younger fellas in customer service, that if you look like you are under the age of 75 - then you get called Miss... because well - -for the reason cimarron stated, us hypersensitive folks don't tip as well if we are think we are being insulted
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Old 04-19-2005, 11:57 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I was born and raised in Pennsylvania. But, my mother was from the south. Florida, to be exact. So, yes I grew up addressing my elders as Sir or Ma'am. I also grew up using the title Mr., Mrs. or Miss. My kids don't so much use the Sir or Ma'am, but most definately use Mr., Mrs. or Miss. My daughters friends have also learned (from her) that I am Mr. O'Rights, and not Bill, or Billy.
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Old 04-19-2005, 11:58 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by maleficent
my friend in Louisiana tells me I only object to ma'am because the right cowboy hasn't said ma'am in the proper way to me yet... here's hoping...
That's it right there...

I've been called ma'am since I was sixteen, and I'm only 22 now. I'd prefer "miss" quite honestly. However, professionally I don't go by Miss J--(that brings back horrible memories of teachers who knew who my father was and called me Miss J-- mockingly)--I'm Ms. J--, thank you very much...though in certain classrooms I let the students call me by my first name. They think it's ever so much cooler.

I wish "miss" were used more often than "ma'am." "Ma'am" makes me feel old...unless a hottie cowboy says it!
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Old 04-19-2005, 12:01 PM   #21 (permalink)
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If some cowboy came along and called me Ma'am I'd feel like I just stepped into an alternate dimension. I'd be looking for the movie crew.
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Old 04-19-2005, 12:08 PM   #22 (permalink)
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[English teacher hat ON]

Ma'am, Sir, Miss, Mrs., Mr. and other titles are nouns, not pronouns

[English teacher hat OFF]

My students are instructed at the beginning of the year that they are to address me using a title and my name--Miss Nakamura--Miss, or Ma'am. I see Sir and Ma'am as terms of respect that don't really denote age in any way.

I was raised to address my parents freinds as Mr. or Mrs. Lastname, and that that is the proper way to address any adult unless you've been invited to use their first name; we shouldn't assume familiarity. Adults whose name we didn't know should be adressed as Sir or Miss, unless the woman is known to be married, in which case she was Ma'am, regardless of age. I still do this today, and I wonder how we got the idea that Sir or Ma'am indiaces someone older?

Perpaps it's part of the deterioration of basic etiquette. I have to battle with the boys in my classes at the beginning of the year over the simple act of removing their hats while inside, and other basics of polite behavior.
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Old 04-19-2005, 12:13 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Ladies,

Seriously, I put up 300 feet of cattle fence this weekend before going to a cattle-cutting competition to be a turn-back rider. You are all "ma'ams" to me.... NOW LET ME SEE YOU SWOOOOOOOONNNNNN!!!!!!
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Old 04-19-2005, 12:30 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cimarron29414
Ladies,

Seriously, I put up 300 feet of cattle fence this weekend before going to a cattle-cutting competition to be a turn-back rider. You are all "ma'ams" to me.... NOW LET ME SEE YOU SWOOOOOOOONNNNNN!!!!!!
Nice try... but nope...
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Old 04-19-2005, 12:42 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Nice try... but nope...
Now, how do you know I'm not the "right" cowboy. You should see me in my Wranglers, ma'am!

/don't actually own any Wranglers. I do have some nice American Eagle jeans though. Okay, if I evaluate myself in my jeans, does that make me less of a cowboy? Am I rambling? *nervous laughter* Sorry, ma'am - flustered by your beauty. Them cartoon boobies is mesmerizin'.
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Old 04-19-2005, 12:53 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I was raised with ma'am and sir and please and thank you, as is my daughter. The ONLY time my daughter is allowed to call an adult by their first name is if they specifically ask to be addressed that way.

I also cannot stand to hear a child say "yeah" in response to a question....ugh that drive me bonkers. It took me having a child to get used to the ma'am thing and I realized that I wasnt the only person in the world raised to do that lol. But when I had Amanda I realized if I expected her to do it, I had to receive it well.
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Old 04-19-2005, 12:56 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Merriam-Webster

Main Entry: mad·am
Pronunciation: 'ma-d&m
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural madams
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French ma dame, literally, my lady
1 plural mes·dames /mA-'däm, -'dam/ : LADY -- used without a name as a form of respectful or polite address to a woman
2 : MISTRESS 1 -- used as a title formerly with the given name but now with the surname or especially with a designation of rank or office <Madam Chairman> <Madam President>
3 : the female head of a house of prostitution
4 : the female head of a household : WIFE
I see nothing about an old woman in there.

Quote:
Main Entry: sir
Pronunciation: 's&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from sire
1 a : a man entitled to be addressed as sir -- used as a title before the given name of a knight or baronet and formerly sometimes before the given name of a priest b : a man of rank or position
2 a -- used as a usually respectful form of address b capitalized -- used as a conventional form of address in the salutation of a letter
Once again...

I see them both as a respectful way to address either someone you don't know, or a superior. While we're on the subject, stop taking offense to the word lady .

Somewhat on topic: I find myself calling females "miss" even though I know that they're married. It just seems to roll off of my tongue easier. Nobody has ever said anything, but would any of you be offended by that?

Last edited by Slavakion; 04-19-2005 at 12:58 PM..
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Old 04-19-2005, 12:57 PM   #28 (permalink)
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(Double Post...)
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Old 04-19-2005, 12:59 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Nothing has ever made me feel as old as having my daughter's latest boyfriend call me sir. At least I was able to give him fair warning about calling my wife "ma'am".
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:05 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavakion
Somewhat on topic: I find myself calling females "miss" even though I know that they're married. It just seems to roll off of my tongue easier. Nobody has ever said anything, but would any of you be offended by that?
I can see how someone might be offended by that. "How dare you call me miss? Are you implying that I'm not good enough to be MARRIED?!?"
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:06 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I like it. It's manners, and manners show respect. It's jarring when it first happens to you (getting called ma'am or sir) but hey, the age thing is all relative. I'll be called sir for the next 40 years -- I should learn to like it!

I teach my kids to do the same, but it isn't reinforced anywhere. Those kind of manners are disappearing.

I don't like kids treating adults casually without permission, and I tell children to at least call me Mr. _____ instead of my first name. God knows that respect is a dying entity.
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:07 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavakion
I see them both as a respectful way to address either someone you don't know, or a superior. While we're on the subject, stop taking offense to the word lady .
I don't take offense to it --
3 a : a woman of superior social position b : a woman of refinement and gentle manners

It's just totally not me... Refinement? Superior social position? Gentle manners? Me ? Maybe it's ok for some -- but it's definitely not me...
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:07 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I do hear from young ladies all the time that they don't like being called Ma'am -- they prefer Miss. I try to remember, but I also use the excuse that it's what my mama taught me to say.
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:07 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I'm aware there's no clear-cut reason why calling someone Ma'am implies they're old. I actually looked up the definition myself, years ago, in an attempt to answer this same question for myself. I guess it's just a matter of the customs of the place where you live. The other people I know feel the same way and my boyfriend, who is from Seattle, feels that way about being called Sir so it's not just a California thing. It's just not common usage around here, that's all. The same goes for calling people "Mr." and "Mrs." although not as much so. Those forms of address are reserved for formal business settings or other uptight-style occasions.
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:11 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavakion
Somewhat on topic: I find myself calling females "miss" even though I know that they're married. It just seems to roll off of my tongue easier. Nobody has ever said anything, but would any of you be offended by that?
If someone called me "Miss" I'd think they were either being sarcastic or joking around, falsely flattering, overly formal or needed glasses. Although I've never been married, I'm certainly old enough!
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:34 PM   #36 (permalink)
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True story: I was walking into a mall. As I was trained from birth, I looked back and saw a woman approaching the door behind me. Again, as trained, I stepped to the side and held the door for her.

In a high-pitched, yankee voice she chirped, "What, you think because I am a woman I am not STRONG enough to open a door for myself?!?!?!"

I smiled, lowered my head and said, "No, MA'AM! My mother taught me to honor women above all other creatures. By holding this door for you, I am able to honor you, my mother, and all other women - and it is my pleasure to do it!"

The woman turns bright red and walks through the door, grabs the second set of doors and holds it from behind for me. I said, "Thank you and have a nice day." - although, I must confess that was not what I was thinking.

There are SOME things that are right with the South. Ma'am, Sir, and opening doors for others (ESPECIALLY women) are just a few of them.
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:35 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavakion
I see them both as a respectful way to address either someone you don't know, or a superior. While we're on the subject, stop taking offense to the word lady .
Describing a woman as being a lady is fine, but it shouldn't be used as a form of direct address; there it is impolite. As a noun modifier, it's not really offensive, but it is non-standard usage.

Quote:
Somewhat on topic: I find myself calling females "miss" even though I know that they're married. It just seems to roll off of my tongue easier. Nobody has ever said anything, but would any of you be offended by that?
Doesn't bother me in the least, even though I am married.
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:44 PM   #38 (permalink)
32 flavors and then some
 
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Location: Out on a wire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cimarron29414
True story: I was walking into a mall. As I was trained from birth, I looked back and saw a woman approaching the door behind me. Again, as trained, I stepped to the side and held the door for her.

In a high-pitched, yankee voice she chirped, "What, you think because I am a woman I am not STRONG enough to open a door for myself?!?!?!"

I smiled, lowered my head and said, "No, MA'AM! My mother taught me to honor women above all other creatures. By holding this door for you, I am able to honor you, my mother, and all other women - and it is my pleasure to do it!"

The woman turns bright red and walks through the door, grabs the second set of doors and holds it from behind for me. I said, "Thank you and have a nice day." - although, I must confess that was not what I was thinking.

There are SOME things that are right with the South. Ma'am, Sir, and opening doors for others (ESPECIALLY women) are just a few of them.

Do you do that thing where you get up halfway out of your chair when a lady gets up and/or sits back down at the table? Cuz I love that. Having doors opened for me is nice, too, but I'll hold doors for those following also regardless of sex.
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:57 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Like everyone else from the South, I also say Ma'am and Sir. Honestly I think it is crazy that people would object to being called that, since it is a term of respect.

I always called my parents' friends Miss/Mrs. Firstname or Mr. Firstname, and still don't know what to call them know that I am older. I feel awkward calling them by just their first names, but I feel like a little kid if I say Mr. first.

To the parents of my friends, I always say Mr./Mrs. Lastname unless they tell me otherwise. I think it is really disrespectful to call someone older than you by their first name unless they tell you to do so.
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Old 04-19-2005, 02:04 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
Do you do that thing where you get up halfway out of your chair when a lady gets up and/or sits back down at the table? Cuz I love that. Having doors opened for me is nice, too, but I'll hold doors for those following also regardless of sex.
I do too!!!
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