A small blow to "Abstinence Only" education - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Astrocloud · 03-19-2005, 10:59 AM

http://www.moneyplans.net/newsroom/n...ullnews&id=261

Quote:

I Am Virgin Don't Believe that Statement

Young adults taking "virginity pledges" in schools and community meetings have been found to have same or even higher chances of sexually transmitted diseases as their peers.

Young adults taking "virginity pledges" in schools and community meetings have been found to have same or even higher chances of sexually transmitted diseases as their peers. The new study has cme as a shock for many parents who believe that their kids are safe and have very less chances of getting STDs. The study has als given a big blow to to claims of effectiveness the abstinence movement.

The teens and Young adults who claim to be virgin and usually take virginity pledges are more likely to get into sexual activity withut use of condoms. This behaviour is even more serious and could lead to long term troubles in control of Sexually Transmitted Diseases.

"Advocates for abstinence-only education assert that premarital abstinence and postmarital sex are necessary and sufficient for avoiding negative consequences of sexual activity, such as STDs," says the study, published yesterday in the Journal of Adolescent Health. "This assertion collides with the realities of adolescents' and young adults' lives."

The research also found that virginity pledges -- usually public, signed statements linked with schools, community groups or churches in which adolescents promise to delay having sex until marriage -- may even encourage high-risk sexual behaviour, as those who make the pledge are less likely to use condoms and seek treatment for STDs.

Lead author Hannah Bruckner, a sociology professor at Yale University, said in an interview that the findings indicate abstinence-only education isn't sufficient to prevent teenagers from contracting STDs.

One reason is that sexually active pledgers were less likely to use condoms at first sex than non-pledgers.

Br|eckner and Bearman also note that pledgers were less likely to seek and obtain STD-related health care, possibly because of increased stigmatization or misperception of infection risk among pledgers.

"If pledgers have infections for longer periods of time than non- pledgers, this is a reason for concern," said Br|ckner.

The authors said even though pledgers used condoms at the same rate as non-pledgers, the fact that they were less likely to use condoms earlier could be why their STD rates remain high since they are less likely to be diagnosed. (ANI)

I think that if these youngsters were really serious about being abstinent -then they should take dating tips from me...

But seriously folks -did anyone expect a different result?

Sweetpea · 03-19-2005, 11:07 AM

not a surprise.

Creating a "secrecy" around sex is not the way to help stop young individuals from engaging in it . . . if they want to promote abstinence, then so be it . . . but common sense would dictate that they also need to educate on safe sex and contraception . . . cause even if they wait a while, individuals are going to start having sex eventually . . . not arming them with such nessasary knowledge is indeed a travesty and quite stupid.
the only way that these issues are going to be adressed is not through the promotion of no sex . . . but through open discussions about sexuality and offering young individuals the real information they will need.

common sense . . . it's just plain common sense.

thanks,

Sweetpea

lindseylatch · 03-19-2005, 11:24 AM

I've been reading crap for years about how abstinence-only education doesn't work. Young people do not wait longer to start having sex. However, they are less safe when they do start having sex, because they haven't been educated about various contraceptive.
And isn't this political?

JStrider · 03-19-2005, 11:35 AM

abstinence only sex ed programs are a complete failure, they completely ignore the fact that some kids will have sex whether or not their taught about it.

just recently there was a case of a middle schooler getting aids here in lubbock...
http://www.kcbd.com/Global/story.asp...8&nav=CcXHXOuY
maybe it will help people open their eyes to what a failure abstinence only sex ed is...

snowy · 03-19-2005, 11:46 AM

The fact is that these abstinence-only education programs do not work because they lack a key element: ACTUAL education. They teach kids that sex is dangerous but don't tell them WHY sex is a dangerous and risky behavior. They teach kids that sex is something to be ashamed of, that it's dirty, and should be kept behind closed doors. Well, kids are keeping it behind closed doors and doing it without knowing that EVERY sexual behavior has an inherent risk.

Because they are taught not to have vaginal intercourse, they seek out other sexual behaviors--behaviors which are even RISKIER than vaginal intercourse as far as transmission of STDs goes. They are LESS likely to use protection when engaging in these behaviors, and are less likely to know that those behaviors can also transmit STDs. They are taught to be afraid of pregnancy and not disease. Thus they are even more at risk than kids who are taught methods of protection and about the transmission of disease. Scare tactics don't work. Education does.

I am completely and totally against abstinence-based education.

lordpoopshank · 03-19-2005, 11:48 AM

Damn...HIV in middle school?! That is insane. I cant even imagine what must be going on in the parents' minds. Anyway, "abstinence only" programs seem like a joke when sex surrounds young people at such early ages now.

guthmund · 03-19-2005, 12:08 PM

When my sister was in 15, she was 1 of 5 other pregnant girls in their health class that taught abstinence only. The instructor even made a little joke and then keeled over dead from irony.

Kids are going to experiment with sex. Kids are going to experiment with drugs. Kids are going to experiment with alcohol. It seems to me just an inevitable phase of life that everyone has to go through. The best we can do is try to educate the masses well enough to excercise a little common sense when they do.

Wrapping it up in a box and labeling it "secret" isn't going to work. It didn't work for me and my father's Playboys, or me and my father's liquor cabinet. God bless my father.

degrawj · 03-19-2005, 02:13 PM

it boggles my mind how these "Abstinence Only" people can justify having anal sex. or even oral sex for that matter! in my mind, abstinence only means no vaginal intercourse, no anal intercourse, and no oral intercourse. mutual masturbation is about the only thing that i can think of that would qualify for abstinence only. this is a very touch issue for me, and i'm going to stop now before i say something that could get me in trouble.

CSflim · 03-19-2005, 02:15 PM

Not in the slightest bit surprised.

Sex education should consist of...well....education about sex!

And that includes information about the different diseases, risks, contraceptives, protection from disease, early symptoms of diseases and a whole host of other things. When this information is not actively provided to teenagers, it is unlikely that they will actually go out and research it themselves (teenagers already know everything don't forget!) and hence it is obvious that they are going to end up ilprepared.

Willravel · 03-19-2005, 02:20 PM

Well, let it never be said that I never concede. I was TOTALLY WRONG about abstenence education. I wish I knew more about the programs before I started supporting them. Will this end any chance of a decent abstenance educationprogram? I think that if it were run by non-idiots, it might stand a chance to do some good. Oh well. I was wrong.

flamingdog · 03-19-2005, 04:07 PM

Abstinence is a bullshit philosophy from the start. It all stems from the no pre-marital sex hegemony preached by Christians. While there might be sound societal reasons for that, there's no point burying one's head in the sand and pretending that kids aren't going out and discovering the secrets of the world for themselves.

The thing I think we're missing most in our society is education about the emotional aspects of sex. Our media seems to promote and inculcate with the notion that sex is a purely physical reaction, like a sneeze. In young kids, this creates a cycle of guilt who are basically getting in over their heads, way too early.

The whole biblical attitude to sex is counter-productive. It makes you feel guilty for having natural desires, it makes you feel guilty for acting on them - or rather being unable to hold yourself back - and then it makes you feel guilty about the consequences.

I do think it's unfortunate that teens have the level of promiscuity that they do. I'd prefer to see them educated in the dangers and given access to birth control early to prevent early pregnancy and STDs. That's the cure.

Xell101 · 03-19-2005, 04:23 PM

It always struck me as osmething that limits the information to what suits an anti-sex agenda. That's never a good idea. On issues like this, the more information available, the better the results. Unfortunately I was right in it being vastly inferior to easily had alternatives.

NCB · 03-19-2005, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JStrider

abstinence only sex ed programs are a complete failure, they completely ignore the fact that some kids will have sex whether or not their taught about it.

just recently there was a case of a middle schooler getting aids here in lubbock...
http://www.kcbd.com/Global/story.asp...8&nav=CcXHXOuY
maybe it will help people open their eyes to what a failure abstinence only sex ed is...

It's easy to judge a plan as a failure when the alternative has fairly low standards.

And oh, couldn't a little abstinence education go a long way in sub Saharan Africa?

World's King · 03-19-2005, 06:11 PM

I have the only other option right here.

Charlatan · 03-19-2005, 06:12 PM

NCB... the point isn't that abstinence shouldn't be an option it is just that it is not really all that practical. People are going to have sex...

You need to give them the whole picture so they can make a rational judgment. Let them know that there are ways to "get off" that will not lead to pregnancy and will lessen the change of transmitting disease.

Give them the whole picture and then you can clobber them over the head with abstinance teachings. At least they will be informed when making their decisions.

As for Africa... it will take a lot more than abstinence to fix that problem. But, yes abstinence is an option... just not a practical one.

flstf · 03-19-2005, 06:32 PM

I find it hard to believe that kids today do not know about AIDS, STDs, risks of pregnancy, etc... with all the media and internet coverage. Not only will teaching abstinence not be effective but sex education in general will probably not be as well. Maybe if we can come up with some way to teach responsibility we might get somewhere.

NCB · 03-19-2005, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

NCB... the point isn't that abstinence shouldn't be an option it is just that it is not really all that practical. People are going to have sex...

You need to give them the whole picture so they can make a rational judgment. Let them know that there are ways to "get off" that will not lead to pregnancy and will lessen the change of transmitting disease.

Give them the whole picture and then you can clobber them over the head with abstinance teachings. At least they will be informed when making their decisions.

As for Africa... it will take a lot more than abstinence to fix that problem. But, yes abstinence is an option... just not a practical one.

I hear ya'. It's nieve of me to think that an abstinence only curric. would be wholly effective. However, trying to blend abstine. only education with learning to put condoms on cucumbers is obviously a contradiction. I don;t know what the answers are this day and age (though I'm sure ManX can tell us

). I'm just not comfortable teaching pre-adolescent kids about condoms and cucumbers. And just wait till the homosexual mafia finally implements teaching about homosexual sex education!!

With Africa, it is a sexual problem. True, a lot of children are being born with HIV, but the primary transmission cause is still sex. It's time for Africans to either learn some self control or practice safer sex. What they're doing now just ain't working, despite all the money that's being poured into the region

muttonglutton · 03-19-2005, 09:54 PM

I'm not suprised in the least.

In fact, it reminds be of 1984. The Junior Anti-Sex League I think it was. Things like that don't really stop sex. They just make it more undercover, which leads to a whole mess of other problems.

Teaching safe sex is definitely the better way to go, I believe. Trying to tell kids that sex isn't good or that it isn't allowed is only going to make them want it more. Like when you tell your child he can't have a cookie.

JStrider · 03-19-2005, 10:14 PM

in my sex ed class they gave a very heavy emphasis to abstinence, saying it was the only 100% positive way to prevent stds and pregnancy. also taught us about contraception, and anatomy and whatnot.

it was a pretty well rounded thing... gave us enough information to make informed decisions about the risks involved with becoming sexually active.

Demeter · 03-20-2005, 02:19 AM

And of course, lets tip the hat to all of the wonderful parents who willfully neglect their child's sexual education, leaving it instead to the school system & peer-to -peer confessions.

I have always been frank & honest with my children about sex & make sure they have access to condoms & birth control through me. I do tell them that its not my consent to 'go nuts' but its there if needed. Have I given my kids the wrong message? Perhaps, but hopefully my child won't be the one coming home from school at sixteen telling me she's pregnant or has an STD. I refuse to be so naive as to think kids don't think/talk/have sex.

Charlatan · 03-20-2005, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demeter

And of course, lets tip the hat to all of the wonderful parents who willfully neglect their child's sexual education, leaving it instead to the school system & peer-to -peer confessions.

I was just going to post this...

Parents really need to step up and take some responsibility... Get over the embarassment factor and speak honestly and frankly with their kids about sex.

I *never* had the talk with my parents. All I learned about sex came from friends and Penthouse Forum...

NCB... you raise an interesting point

Quote:

I'm just not comfortable teaching pre-adolescent kids about condoms and cucumbers.

What is the age where sex ed should start? I gave my son the, where babies come from talk when he was around seven or so. That doesn't mean I explained about condoms, etc. Girls are still icky to him.

I plan on speaking to him about all of the safty procautions, etc. when he is 12 or 13. Considering I lost my virginity at 14 I think that is as good a time as any.

My approach will be to argue that abstinence is the best policy until you are older. That pregnancy is not something you want to mess with until you are much older... BUT... there are other ways of making out.

I will also make sure he is up to speed on condoms, AIDs, Hep C, etc.

Education is key. Sticking your head in the sand just isn't going to cut it.

CandleInTheDark · 03-20-2005, 06:50 AM

Sex education should start before puberty, before they start learning about sex from their peers.

lurkette · 03-20-2005, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

I hear ya'. It's nieve of me to think that an abstinence only curric. would be wholly effective. However, trying to blend abstine. only education with learning to put condoms on cucumbers is obviously a contradiction.

I don't see it that way - abstinence is one form of birth control, and it's the most effective and the only 100% certain way of avoiding pregnancy and STDs. Now, if abstinence isn't an option for you, here are some other ways of keeping yourself safe.

Quote:

With Africa, it is a sexual problem. True, a lot of children are being born with HIV, but the primary transmission cause is still sex. It's time for Africans to either learn some self control or practice safer sex. What they're doing now just ain't working, despite all the money that's being poured into the region

This is a huge and complex problem and I'm not sure it's really relevant to this discussion. It's hard for us to fathom in this country where we absolutely equate sex with HIV, but there are still huge populations in Africa where that connection doesn't exist, either due to lack of education or due to some pretty "quaint" beliefs about how diseases are transmitted.

In Uganda, though, they are having pretty good success with a COMPREHENSIVE sex ed program - the ABC method. Abstain, but if you can't, Be faithful, and use Condoms. They've shown a significant delay in the first age of intercourse, and a significant reduction in HIV transmission. The difference between Uganda and other countries is that they are relatively stable, the government is backing the effort and providing condoms, and efforts are centralized, standardized, and used throughout the country.

So apparently Ugandans have no problem wrapping their heads around the "contradiction" of comprehensive sex ed.

Fourtyrulz · 03-20-2005, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Education is key. Sticking your head in the sand just isn't going to cut it.

Exactly. The last thing kids today need is to be ignorant of condom and birth control use. What about the extreme minority of kids who have already had sexual experiences by the time sex ed. starts? You can't brush them under the rug that early in their education.

Aladdin Sane · 03-20-2005, 07:52 AM

I have two children, ages 11 (boy), and 7 (girl).
We are very open about sexuality in my home. I've taught my children what I believe is right and healthy about sex.

Fuckin' government schools have no business saying anything whatsoever to my kids about sex. Zero. So-called Sex education has become so politicized that nothing true and healthy can come out of it. Hell, we got public schools in the U.S. that graduate kids who can't even read their own diploma, and now these same schools claim responsibility for teaching about sex. Give me a friggin' break. I speak with a small bit of authority, as I was a Social Studies teacher in public schools for 13 years. The lawyers, politicians, and PC Police have turned this institution into an Alice-through-the-looking-glass world. Seriously. And Parents-- oh my God. Many Parents have relinquished responsibility for raising their kids to a non-functioning, bureaucratic, insane asylum. It's lunacy. And the more responsibility the schools claim over raising kids, the more parents expect schools to do, and the less the schools actually do well. In an attempt to be all things for all kids, public schools have become experts at very little, save writing grant proposals, and securing federal dollars.

So, do I think teaching kids not to have sex until they are emotionally, financially, and physically ready get pregnant, have a baby, experience an abortion, become a father, and catch a STD is okay? Yeah, it's fuckin' okay in my house, with my children.

Aladdin Sane · 03-20-2005, 08:06 AM

One more point. I've seen another "study" that showed that there is a higher rate of sexual activity among teens who have been through a sex education class-- ANY sex education--than among those who had NO "sex education."

Val_1 · 03-20-2005, 08:59 AM

Education is the key. But Mr Sane has a point: education begins in the home. Do we need to DEPEND on the school system to teach our kids about sex?

lurkette · 03-20-2005, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aladdin Sane

One more point. I've seen another "study" that showed that there is a higher rate of sexual activity among teens who have been through a sex education class-- ANY sex education--than among those who had NO "sex education."

Can you provide a reference for that study? I'd like to see it. Thanks!

snowy · 03-20-2005, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demeter

And of course, lets tip the hat to all of the wonderful parents who willfully neglect their child's sexual education, leaving it instead to the school system & peer-to -peer confessions.

I have always been frank & honest with my children about sex & make sure they have access to condoms & birth control through me. I do tell them that its not my consent to 'go nuts' but its there if needed. Have I given my kids the wrong message? Perhaps, but hopefully my child won't be the one coming home from school at sixteen telling me she's pregnant or has an STD. I refuse to be so naive as to think kids don't think/talk/have sex.

My parents did the same thing--my mom said that sex is something to be enjoyed and shared and to do it with someone I had feelings for. Both of my parents made it clear that if I needed/wanted birth control/condoms all I had to do was ask.

They did not try to fear me into not having sex. They did not ask me to wait until marriage. As a result I felt no need to rebel like some of my peers. I didn't lose my virginity until I was 19 and I certainly didn't go hogwild when I did.

lindseylatch · 03-20-2005, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

And just wait till the homosexual mafia finally implements teaching about homosexual sex education!!

WHAT??? Maybe you were joking...
Sex education is sex education. Heterosexual couples have anal sex and oral sex, so teaching about the risks in school is smart...

Aladdin Sane · 03-20-2005, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lurkette

Can you provide a reference for that study? I'd like to see it. Thanks!

Lurkette, I've Googled for the article but, as of yet, I haven't been able to find it. Perhaps I was dreaming. Can we pretend I never mentioned it?
Cheers. AS

Anomaly_ · 03-20-2005, 05:33 PM

There seems to be this unsubstantiated belief that if we educate children about sex they will be more likely to act out. Yet the approach to education about drugs is just this; let children know, in detail, exactly what the detrimental effects of certain substances are. The resistance to this approach for sex education just boggles my mind.

Aladdin Sane · 03-21-2005, 08:22 PM

I will grant, for now, that I have no empirical evidence that sex education leads to more sexual activity. Fair enough. I will not grant, however, that it is an irrational proposition, with so little merit that, like belief in a flat earth, it "boggles the mind."

lindseylatch · 03-21-2005, 08:28 PM

So, we should just ignore the issue and let them find out from tv and news?
You are obviously educating your kids about sex, but, as seen from posts above, not all parents are as responsible as you are.
I don't think I want kids learning about sex from Desperate Housewives...

Supple Cow · 03-21-2005, 09:25 PM

Aside from the fact that teenagers will be confronted with all kinds of unrealistic ideas about sex in the media regardless of abstinence only education, it just seems counterintuitive to me that the best way to help young people make wise decisions would be to withhold information from them. I am always 100% honest, forthcoming and responsible about dispensing this kind of information; it's a shame that the current administration doesn't operate that way.

tecoyah · 03-21-2005, 09:31 PM

Oh.....Wait.......um.......Duh

Expectation of stifling sexual impulse is rediculous, as this is one of the most powerful hormonal drives we humans experience. I personally, see this as nothing more than a dogmatic, and ignorant attempt to ignore reality. Oh well....seems par for the course at this point.

MH73 · 03-21-2005, 10:06 PM

Abstinance only leads to increased risk of Carpal Tunnel....

We just can't win!

flstf · 03-22-2005, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aladdin Sane

Lurkette, I've Googled for the article but, as of yet, I haven't been able to find it. Perhaps I was dreaming. Can we pretend I never mentioned it?
Cheers. AS

Perhaps these are the studies you are referring to. I can't find the actual studies, just references to them.

Quote:

The questionable value of sex education

The increased availability of the pill and sex education in the USA had actually run parallel with increases in child pregnancies amongst the US school population.[31]

Research suggests that although in the USA contraceptive education resulted in gains in sexual knowledge, it also led to appreciable shifts towards promiscuity.[32]

(31) Alan Guttmacher Institute. Teenage Pregnancy: The Problem that hasn't gone away. 1981

(32) Richard D. Has Sex Education failed Our Children? Pomona Ca: Focus on the Family, 1990

Aladdin Sane · 03-22-2005, 06:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aladdin Sane
Lurkette, I've Googled for the article but, as of yet, I haven't been able to find it. Perhaps I was dreaming. Can we pretend I never mentioned it?
Cheers. AS

Perhaps these are the studies you are referring to. I can't find the actual studies, just references to them.
Quote:
The questionable value of sex education

The increased availability of the pill and sex education in the USA had actually run parallel with increases in child pregnancies amongst the US school population.[31]

Research suggests that although in the USA contraceptive education resulted in gains in sexual knowledge, it also led to appreciable shifts towards promiscuity.[32]

(31) Alan Guttmacher Institute. Teenage Pregnancy: The Problem that hasn't gone away. 1981

(32) Richard D. Has Sex Education failed Our Children? Pomona Ca: Focus on the Family, 1990

Flstf, thank you. I didn't think I was dreaming, but you never know.

My aside in reference to this study was just that, an aside, and not the main thrust of the point I was trying to make (in my previous post). By bringing up this study, I panicked the true believers among us and shifted the focus where I had not intended.

My real point is that (1) so-called "sex education" has become so politicized in the United States as to be more akin to state propaganda than to rational inquiry; and (2) government schools in the United States have recently failed to teach reading and arithmetic (to name just two areas--there are more failures, to be sure), so I don't expect these same schools to be successful at teaching human sexuality; the consequences of which are far more grave than missing 2 + 2 = 4. And (3), to quote myself, many Parents have relinquished responsibility for raising their kids to a non-functioning, bureaucratic, insane asylum. It's lunacy. And the more responsibility the schools claim over raising kids, the more parents expect schools to do, and the less the schools actually do well. In an attempt to be all things for all kids, public schools have become experts at very little, save writing grant proposals, and securing federal dollars.

Furthermore, in response to an opinion stated in this forum, I will say that the "expectation of stifling sexual impulse" is indeed rediculous. That is NOT to say that human beings are like cattle and canines, with no ability for rational choice. I often have the impulse to mate with females other than my wife. When those impulses come, as they do on a daily basis, I make a choice to act on them or not. The ability to rationally weigh the consequences of acting on a biological impulse, of making a choice, that is what separates me (and you) from a canary. It's what makes us human.

ironman · 03-22-2005, 09:41 AM

I was educated in a catholic school, and there we received Sexual Education since 3rd grade, we were all 9 year old and we were thought how sexual organs worked, how sex happens between a man and a woman and the consequences about having sex, like babies, the chances of STD's, etc..., and everytime we received this classes, we were thought about abstinence and condoms. Basically they gave us the chance to decide by ourselves what we wanted to do, the message was somethong like this: "Is best to wait 'till you get married, but if you decide no to wait, please!!! use a condom". we even were thought that Church does not approve the use of condoms, but that it was better to have a little sin and not an STD or an unwanted child. To me, that's sexual education, the rest is pure bullshit. I remember a lot of moms protesting about that class and that we were too young to be receiving that kind of information, but beleive me, there were not one of us in the hole class that didn't knew in some sort of twisted way what sex was and what a condom was, so it was good to get the info in a reliable and direct way. The benefits of the Sex Ed? None of us had babies before ending school and, as far as i know, none contracted STDs eventhough most of the class was sexually active since we were 15.

View Poll Results: Is abstinence only education really effective?
Yes,	4	3.15%
No,	117	92.13%
I don't know.	5	3.94%
Other (please specify)	1	0.79%
Voters: 127. You may not vote on this poll

03-19-2005, 11:07 AM	#2 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	not a surprise. Creating a "secrecy" around sex is not the way to help stop young individuals from engaging in it . . . if they want to promote abstinence, then so be it . . . but common sense would dictate that they also need to educate on safe sex and contraception . . . cause even if they wait a while, individuals are going to start having sex eventually . . . not arming them with such nessasary knowledge is indeed a travesty and quite stupid. the only way that these issues are going to be adressed is not through the promotion of no sex . . . but through open discussions about sexuality and offering young individuals the real information they will need. common sense . . . it's just plain common sense. thanks, Sweetpea __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

03-19-2005, 11:24 AM	#3 (permalink)
lindseylatch Addict Location: Seattle, WA	I've been reading crap for years about how abstinence-only education doesn't work. Young people do not wait longer to start having sex. However, they are less safe when they do start having sex, because they haven't been educated about various contraceptive. And isn't this political? __________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him." "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." -Voltaire

03-19-2005, 11:35 AM	#4 (permalink)
JStrider Poo-tee-weet? Location: The Woodlands, TX	abstinence only sex ed programs are a complete failure, they completely ignore the fact that some kids will have sex whether or not their taught about it. just recently there was a case of a middle schooler getting aids here in lubbock... http://www.kcbd.com/Global/story.asp...8&nav=CcXHXOuY maybe it will help people open their eyes to what a failure abstinence only sex ed is... __________________ -=JStrider=- ~Clatto Verata Nicto

03-19-2005, 11:46 AM	#5 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	The fact is that these abstinence-only education programs do not work because they lack a key element: ACTUAL education. They teach kids that sex is dangerous but don't tell them WHY sex is a dangerous and risky behavior. They teach kids that sex is something to be ashamed of, that it's dirty, and should be kept behind closed doors. Well, kids are keeping it behind closed doors and doing it without knowing that EVERY sexual behavior has an inherent risk. Because they are taught not to have vaginal intercourse, they seek out other sexual behaviors--behaviors which are even RISKIER than vaginal intercourse as far as transmission of STDs goes. They are LESS likely to use protection when engaging in these behaviors, and are less likely to know that those behaviors can also transmit STDs. They are taught to be afraid of pregnancy and not disease. Thus they are even more at risk than kids who are taught methods of protection and about the transmission of disease. Scare tactics don't work. Education does. I am completely and totally against abstinence-based education. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

03-19-2005, 11:48 AM	#6 (permalink)
lordpoopshank Tilted	Damn...HIV in middle school?! That is insane. I cant even imagine what must be going on in the parents' minds. Anyway, "abstinence only" programs seem like a joke when sex surrounds young people at such early ages now.

03-19-2005, 12:08 PM	#7 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	When my sister was in 15, she was 1 of 5 other pregnant girls in their health class that taught abstinence only. The instructor even made a little joke and then keeled over dead from irony. Kids are going to experiment with sex. Kids are going to experiment with drugs. Kids are going to experiment with alcohol. It seems to me just an inevitable phase of life that everyone has to go through. The best we can do is try to educate the masses well enough to excercise a little common sense when they do. Wrapping it up in a box and labeling it "secret" isn't going to work. It didn't work for me and my father's Playboys, or me and my father's liquor cabinet. God bless my father. __________________ No signature. None. Seriously.

03-19-2005, 02:13 PM	#8 (permalink)
degrawj I'm still waiting... Location: West Linn, OR	it boggles my mind how these "Abstinence Only" people can justify having anal sex. or even oral sex for that matter! in my mind, abstinence only means no vaginal intercourse, no anal intercourse, and no oral intercourse. mutual masturbation is about the only thing that i can think of that would qualify for abstinence only. this is a very touch issue for me, and i'm going to stop now before i say something that could get me in trouble.

03-19-2005, 02:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	Not in the slightest bit surprised. Sex education should consist of...well....education about sex! And that includes information about the different diseases, risks, contraceptives, protection from disease, early symptoms of diseases and a whole host of other things. When this information is not actively provided to teenagers, it is unlikely that they will actually go out and research it themselves (teenagers already know everything don't forget!) and hence it is obvious that they are going to end up ilprepared. __________________

03-19-2005, 02:20 PM	#10 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Well, let it never be said that I never concede. I was TOTALLY WRONG about abstenence education. I wish I knew more about the programs before I started supporting them. Will this end any chance of a decent abstenance educationprogram? I think that if it were run by non-idiots, it might stand a chance to do some good. Oh well. I was wrong.

03-19-2005, 04:07 PM	#11 (permalink)
flamingdog Still fighting it.	Abstinence is a bullshit philosophy from the start. It all stems from the no pre-marital sex hegemony preached by Christians. While there might be sound societal reasons for that, there's no point burying one's head in the sand and pretending that kids aren't going out and discovering the secrets of the world for themselves. The thing I think we're missing most in our society is education about the emotional aspects of sex. Our media seems to promote and inculcate with the notion that sex is a purely physical reaction, like a sneeze. In young kids, this creates a cycle of guilt who are basically getting in over their heads, way too early. The whole biblical attitude to sex is counter-productive. It makes you feel guilty for having natural desires, it makes you feel guilty for acting on them - or rather being unable to hold yourself back - and then it makes you feel guilty about the consequences. I do think it's unfortunate that teens have the level of promiscuity that they do. I'd prefer to see them educated in the dangers and given access to birth control early to prevent early pregnancy and STDs. That's the cure. Last edited by flamingdog; 03-19-2005 at 04:16 PM..

03-19-2005, 04:23 PM	#12 (permalink)
Xell101 Junkie	It always struck me as osmething that limits the information to what suits an anti-sex agenda. That's never a good idea. On issues like this, the more information available, the better the results. Unfortunately I was right in it being vastly inferior to easily had alternatives.

03-19-2005, 06:11 PM	#14 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	I have the only other option right here. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

03-19-2005, 06:12 PM	#15 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	NCB... the point isn't that abstinence shouldn't be an option it is just that it is not really all that practical. People are going to have sex... You need to give them the whole picture so they can make a rational judgment. Let them know that there are ways to "get off" that will not lead to pregnancy and will lessen the change of transmitting disease. Give them the whole picture and then you can clobber them over the head with abstinance teachings. At least they will be informed when making their decisions. As for Africa... it will take a lot more than abstinence to fix that problem. But, yes abstinence is an option... just not a practical one. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-19-2005, 06:32 PM	#16 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	I find it hard to believe that kids today do not know about AIDS, STDs, risks of pregnancy, etc... with all the media and internet coverage. Not only will teaching abstinence not be effective but sex education in general will probably not be as well. Maybe if we can come up with some way to teach responsibility we might get somewhere.

03-19-2005, 09:54 PM	#18 (permalink)
muttonglutton Crazy Location: K-W. Err... -dot.	I'm not suprised in the least. In fact, it reminds be of 1984. The Junior Anti-Sex League I think it was. Things like that don't really stop sex. They just make it more undercover, which leads to a whole mess of other problems. Teaching safe sex is definitely the better way to go, I believe. Trying to tell kids that sex isn't good or that it isn't allowed is only going to make them want it more. Like when you tell your child he can't have a cookie. __________________ Cellar Door.

03-19-2005, 10:14 PM	#19 (permalink)
JStrider Poo-tee-weet? Location: The Woodlands, TX	in my sex ed class they gave a very heavy emphasis to abstinence, saying it was the only 100% positive way to prevent stds and pregnancy. also taught us about contraception, and anatomy and whatnot. it was a pretty well rounded thing... gave us enough information to make informed decisions about the risks involved with becoming sexually active. __________________ -=JStrider=- ~Clatto Verata Nicto

03-20-2005, 02:19 AM	#20 (permalink)
Demeter Psycho	And of course, lets tip the hat to all of the wonderful parents who willfully neglect their child's sexual education, leaving it instead to the school system & peer-to -peer confessions. I have always been frank & honest with my children about sex & make sure they have access to condoms & birth control through me. I do tell them that its not my consent to 'go nuts' but its there if needed. Have I given my kids the wrong message? Perhaps, but hopefully my child won't be the one coming home from school at sixteen telling me she's pregnant or has an STD. I refuse to be so naive as to think kids don't think/talk/have sex.

03-20-2005, 06:50 AM	#22 (permalink)
CandleInTheDark Addict Location: Where the music's loudest	Sex education should start before puberty, before they start learning about sex from their peers. __________________ Where there is doubt there is freedom.

03-20-2005, 07:52 AM	#25 (permalink)
Aladdin Sane Degenerate Location: San Marvelous	I have two children, ages 11 (boy), and 7 (girl). We are very open about sexuality in my home. I've taught my children what I believe is right and healthy about sex. Fuckin' government schools have no business saying anything whatsoever to my kids about sex. Zero. So-called Sex education has become so politicized that nothing true and healthy can come out of it. Hell, we got public schools in the U.S. that graduate kids who can't even read their own diploma, and now these same schools claim responsibility for teaching about sex. Give me a friggin' break. I speak with a small bit of authority, as I was a Social Studies teacher in public schools for 13 years. The lawyers, politicians, and PC Police have turned this institution into an Alice-through-the-looking-glass world. Seriously. And Parents-- oh my God. Many Parents have relinquished responsibility for raising their kids to a non-functioning, bureaucratic, insane asylum. It's lunacy. And the more responsibility the schools claim over raising kids, the more parents expect schools to do, and the less the schools actually do well. In an attempt to be all things for all kids, public schools have become experts at very little, save writing grant proposals, and securing federal dollars. So, do I think teaching kids not to have sex until they are emotionally, financially, and physically ready get pregnant, have a baby, experience an abortion, become a father, and catch a STD is okay? Yeah, it's fuckin' okay in my house, with my children. __________________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

03-20-2005, 08:06 AM	#26 (permalink)
Aladdin Sane Degenerate Location: San Marvelous	One more point. I've seen another "study" that showed that there is a higher rate of sexual activity among teens who have been through a sex education class-- ANY sex education--than among those who had NO "sex education." __________________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

03-20-2005, 08:59 AM	#27 (permalink)
Val_1 Addict Location: In a State of Denial	Education is the key. But Mr Sane has a point: education begins in the home. Do we need to DEPEND on the school system to teach our kids about sex? __________________ I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. -Frank Sinatra

03-20-2005, 05:33 PM	#32 (permalink)
Anomaly_ Insane	There seems to be this unsubstantiated belief that if we educate children about sex they will be more likely to act out. Yet the approach to education about drugs is just this; let children know, in detail, exactly what the detrimental effects of certain substances are. The resistance to this approach for sex education just boggles my mind.

03-21-2005, 08:22 PM	#33 (permalink)
Aladdin Sane Degenerate Location: San Marvelous	I will grant, for now, that I have no empirical evidence that sex education leads to more sexual activity. Fair enough. I will not grant, however, that it is an irrational proposition, with so little merit that, like belief in a flat earth, it "boggles the mind." __________________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

03-21-2005, 08:28 PM	#34 (permalink)
lindseylatch Addict Location: Seattle, WA	So, we should just ignore the issue and let them find out from tv and news? You are obviously educating your kids about sex, but, as seen from posts above, not all parents are as responsible as you are. I don't think I want kids learning about sex from Desperate Housewives... __________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him." "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." -Voltaire

03-21-2005, 09:25 PM	#35 (permalink)
Supple Cow Americow, the Beautiful Location: Washington, D.C.	Aside from the fact that teenagers will be confronted with all kinds of unrealistic ideas about sex in the media regardless of abstinence only education, it just seems counterintuitive to me that the best way to help young people make wise decisions would be to withhold information from them. I am always 100% honest, forthcoming and responsible about dispensing this kind of information; it's a shame that the current administration doesn't operate that way. __________________ "I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed." (Michael Jordan)

03-21-2005, 09:31 PM	#36 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Oh.....Wait.......um.......Duh Expectation of stifling sexual impulse is rediculous, as this is one of the most powerful hormonal drives we humans experience. I personally, see this as nothing more than a dogmatic, and ignorant attempt to ignore reality. Oh well....seems par for the course at this point. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

03-21-2005, 10:06 PM	#37 (permalink)
MH73 Upright	Abstinance only leads to increased risk of Carpal Tunnel.... We just can't win!

03-22-2005, 06:49 AM	#39 (permalink)
Aladdin Sane Degenerate Location: San Marvelous	Quote: Originally Posted by Aladdin Sane Lurkette, I've Googled for the article but, as of yet, I haven't been able to find it. Perhaps I was dreaming. Can we pretend I never mentioned it? Cheers. AS Perhaps these are the studies you are referring to. I can't find the actual studies, just references to them. Quote: The questionable value of sex education The increased availability of the pill and sex education in the USA had actually run parallel with increases in child pregnancies amongst the US school population.[31] Research suggests that although in the USA contraceptive education resulted in gains in sexual knowledge, it also led to appreciable shifts towards promiscuity.[32] (31) Alan Guttmacher Institute. Teenage Pregnancy: The Problem that hasn't gone away. 1981 (32) Richard D. Has Sex Education failed Our Children? Pomona Ca: Focus on the Family, 1990 Flstf, thank you. I didn't think I was dreaming, but you never know. My aside in reference to this study was just that, an aside, and not the main thrust of the point I was trying to make (in my previous post). By bringing up this study, I panicked the true believers among us and shifted the focus where I had not intended. My real point is that (1) so-called "sex education" has become so politicized in the United States as to be more akin to state propaganda than to rational inquiry; and (2) government schools in the United States have recently failed to teach reading and arithmetic (to name just two areas--there are more failures, to be sure), so I don't expect these same schools to be successful at teaching human sexuality; the consequences of which are far more grave than missing 2 + 2 = 4. And (3), to quote myself, many Parents have relinquished responsibility for raising their kids to a non-functioning, bureaucratic, insane asylum. It's lunacy. And the more responsibility the schools claim over raising kids, the more parents expect schools to do, and the less the schools actually do well. In an attempt to be all things for all kids, public schools have become experts at very little, save writing grant proposals, and securing federal dollars. Furthermore, in response to an opinion stated in this forum, I will say that the "expectation of stifling sexual impulse" is indeed rediculous. That is NOT to say that human beings are like cattle and canines, with no ability for rational choice. I often have the impulse to mate with females other than my wife. When those impulses come, as they do on a daily basis, I make a choice to act on them or not. The ability to rationally weigh the consequences of acting on a biological impulse, of making a choice, that is what separates me (and you) from a canary. It's what makes us human. __________________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

03-22-2005, 09:41 AM	#40 (permalink)
ironman Smithers, release the hounds Location: Guatemala, Guatemala	I was educated in a catholic school, and there we received Sexual Education since 3rd grade, we were all 9 year old and we were thought how sexual organs worked, how sex happens between a man and a woman and the consequences about having sex, like babies, the chances of STD's, etc..., and everytime we received this classes, we were thought about abstinence and condoms. Basically they gave us the chance to decide by ourselves what we wanted to do, the message was somethong like this: "Is best to wait 'till you get married, but if you decide no to wait, please!!! use a condom". we even were thought that Church does not approve the use of condoms, but that it was better to have a little sin and not an STD or an unwanted child. To me, that's sexual education, the rest is pure bullshit. I remember a lot of moms protesting about that class and that we were too young to be receiving that kind of information, but beleive me, there were not one of us in the hole class that didn't knew in some sort of twisted way what sex was and what a condom was, so it was good to get the info in a reliable and direct way. The benefits of the Sex Ed? None of us had babies before ending school and, as far as i know, none contracted STDs eventhough most of the class was sexually active since we were 15. __________________ If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong