Zyeox

Ok I admit the kid was provoking this teacher to say something to them. But I don't care who you are when the National Anthlem is played everyone and I mean everyone should stand and show respect. You may not believe in it or not. But last time I recall you are in the United States of a America. Not some third world country where you can get blown up for less things than that.

We live in America where we do have rights and those rights do protect us from certian things. But those rights are a privlage we have for being a US citizen. You may not like the National Anthlem but you should show the flag that you hope to protect if you some country tries to come over here and cause trouble. I believe it should stay in the classroom and that everyone and I mean everyone should stand. Yes the teacher did go to extreme but I bet those kids where pushing him.

Willravel

Whether you think everyone should stand of not is totally your opinion, but are you willing to force that belief on someone? Isn't there some irony in that?

Why not salute the constitution, bill of rights, the names of past American heros, and president? Are they less deserving than a piece of fabric that represents our land? Just wondering.

Redjake

These kids deserved an ass kicking. I mean come on, they miraculously had the camcorder ready to go when the teacher got angry? They went in to that classroom wanting to get something on film. I am completely on the teacher's side. I can't say I would have did anything similar but I'm not surprised of his reaction. If you play with fire, you get burned. Stand up and stop being a smart ass. I seriously doubt the kids were "sitting" because they didn't "believe" in the flag or pledging allegiance. Somebody needs to call the waaaaaambulance for these fuckers. I wonder if they want frenchcries with their waaaaaaamburgers.

__________________
Off the record, on the q.t., and very hush-hush.

Willravel

I'll bet you're one of the first 10 people in history to compare a high school teacher to fire. Kudos.

When is it okay for a teacher to act like that? When the teacher is a drill instructor.

sob

As I said, I believe it's his right. It's also my right not to hire hire him, or financially support any business I knew of that did hire him.

And yes, it's ungrateful. To these guys, and a lot of others.

<img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UQAwA0QaPmPa*UBv8*cPJUb3uNg2dBHd2K0phmZem7yiRUYiGeBWVtsVfXNMSzvSaGlekO4Ez3mw9TbCQMXAVkBAxjFLp6oUIbYV!qu4JVJlOMW9yP2jJ54mrdMNa8gk/image_iwo_jima.jpg?dc=4675513886936711506></img>

Willravel

Aviod Subway, then. My bro is getting hired there soon.

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag
**** of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
**** one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all."

So...do you, sob, believe that we are a nation under God? Maybe you do. Maybe you are a monotheist. What about the millions of non-monotheist Americans? Should they pledge that they live in a country that states that it exists under one God (originally added by Eisenhower in 1954, as he considered God, the Christian God, to be our most powerful resource)? It's hard to speak for them.

Do you believe that the job of the government is to preserve liberty and justice for all? How good of a job are they doing? You know those brave soldiers were fighting to take a Pacific Island from the Japanese during WW2. The flag that they were raising for them meant that they had taken the island. I remember reading some interview years back with one of the soldiers in that picture, later depicted by that monument. He said they were simply trying to take the island and survive so they could go home.

Perhaps the term "ungrateful" is relative. Maybe I am ungrateful for not joining the Army like I had dreamed of since I was a little boy. Maybe I am ungrateful for protesting when I saw the government moving away from the constitution. But one man's opinion of something being ungrateful, is another man's best effort to be a true patriot. I fight in the best way I can (as I cannot serve in the Army because of a severe heart condition) by being ever vigilent in preserving liberty, freedom, and the rights every human being should be given. Whether I succede or fail, I know I am making the effort.

One man goes off to war to protect America from foreign threats. Another man stay home and tries to fight off people who would poison America from within. I'm the latter man, and so is my little brother.

/End threadjack.

The kids were asses, as many kids are. They misbehaved and deserved punishment for their actions. The teacher was out of line and on the edge of losing control. He was wrong and should be carefully watched for his dangerous temper.

Zyeox

Its not that at all. I think its just wrong that ppl sit there and bitch and moan about standing up and showing respect. I mean I dont understand how ppl can be rude to someone or something that has given them freedom in this country. Its not a matter of force but be respectful and show ppl who do apperciate at it some respect as you would hope they would do to you.



You are doing more than pledging your alliegnece to the flag you are supporting our troops, our past presidents, ppl who have gave there life to the United States of America. And if your family dont have anyone or know anyone in the service or gave thier life for the United States of America you should show respect to ppl who have family or friends that have. It also shows us that are freedom is here to stay. I could care less if ppl sing or put there hand over thier heart they are entilteld to do that but please show respect. Obivisouly these kids just wanted to start shit and they by the sounds of it, it backfired.

Lin

While I think he's a crap teacher (The ones that have to shout so much have lost control of the class) I'll still side with him.
The guys in my opinion were looking for trouble, going to school is not about being an individual , its about conforming . Its about sitting down with others and learning what the system wants you to learn.Thats why so many schools have a uniform policy , to help you understand to leave your individuality at home.
This incident would not have raised an eyebrow if it had happened when I was at school in England over 20 years ago, one teacher used to have the habit of throwing one of those heavy board rubbers at you if you failed to pay attention.
Now its all about the individuals rights and the teachers are not allowed to do anything other than ask you nicely to obey them. I would not like to be a teacher today!!

ObieX

A teacher like that deserves about as much respect as he is willing to give his students. It seems to me that both the kids and him dont have any respect for eachother. Each have their own reasons, I'm sure, but a teacher should have common sense to realize that he is dealing with children. Teenage children, but children. When he reaches the point of yelling the way he did, all respect for him from the children goes right out the window. At that point, in the children's minds, its all about their power over authority. They weild enough power to get him to scream at the top of his lungs and to actually get to the point of using physical force against a student. Any teacher like that should not hold the job. You DO NOT use physical force against a child, teenager or not. It is your responsibility to teach your students the subject you are designated to teach them, thats it.

School is not about conformity. It is about learning the subjects that are provided. A child is sent to school to learn his 3 R's and maybe a little physical fitness along the way. We live in a country and a society of freedom, college understands this and enforces that belief. Lower levels of education are just learning this. A child may be young, but they deserve the same levels of freedom and respect a college student recieves. They are human beings as well, not drones to be whipped into line, adults often forget this.

__________________
We Must Dissent.

Jackebear

Well, this is a very good thread. Points for and against both the kid and the teacher but mostly for the teacher I noticed. Me, I would have told the kid "next time you stay in the hall outside the classroom door until after the anthem is finished then come in".

But the bottom line is that it is utimately up to the parents and their influence or lack of it on their children. I am a teacher as well, and unfortunately at my school it seems like the teachers have to be the parents as well.. Many parents "think" their kids are angels and blame us if their kid acts up or gets into trouble. We are "bad teachers" they say. There is no discipline at home and as a result, the kids have no discipline in controlling their words or actions. Nothing gets your juices boiling like a 15 year old telling you to "Fuck off". The point is parents need to spend some quality time with their children and assist them in their roller coaster of life called adolescence.

Here is something I found.

"The greatest deficit in America isn’t the trade deficit. It’s the attention deficit of our children. The average child gets 14 minutes of attention a day from each of his parents. So the greatest thing you can give a kid is time spent listening to him or her."
-– Jack Canfield

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Life's jounney is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn-out shouting, "Holy sh*t! What a ride!" - unknown

sob

My religious beliefs are irrelevant here. However, I believe that it is you and your brother who would poison America from within, with your "Anna Nicole Smith" philosophy of letting others do the heavy lifting, while you sit back and moan.

I live in an area in which it's common to interact with WWII veterans. I saw one today--He got shot down, someone shot his heel off, and then marched him to a prison camp. He was liberated from Moosburg when Patton drove a tank through its gates.

However, you and your little brother don't agree with the thought of recognizing his sacrifice. I find that disgusting.

Sounds like he's well-qualified to spend the next thirty or forty years there.

Slavakion

Um, were you referring to him not serving in the army? Because...
Where did he say that? He partially agrees witht the teacher about the whole national anthem thing. Is it because he disagreed with the government once? OMG, he's doing what your veteran fought for -- exercising his right to express his views about the government.
*cough* No need to turn this into a flame thread.
Furthermore, are you insulting people who work at fast-food restaurants? I work at one. Some people can't get work at other places because of convenience, lack of experience/job skills, or whatever. So get off your high horse and pay some respect to fast-food. We have to put up with a lot of crap from people, and I'm a little touchy about this. No, I'm not being sarcastic; I'm dead serious right now.

tecoyah

Sob.....Go back to the politics board with your insults....they are at least barely tolerated there.....

Do not poison the rest of these boards with your negative attitude....

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Grasshopper Green

This whole thing disgusts me. This wasn't about disagreeing with the anthem or anything else political, it was about these kids being asses and getting a rise out of their teacher. While I don't agree with people who don't stand or whatever when the anthem is played (my dad always does this at sporting events), I feel that it is one of the rights we have as Americans, freedom of expression. My husband served in Iraq and lost several members of his unit; my brother in law and a good friend of mine are over there right now. When I hear the anthem, I think of them...the men my husband was friends with that are no longer with us, and the loved ones I know that are over there right now. Sitting quietly and not causing a disturbance, or simply leaving the room while the anthem was played would have sufficed, if this really was about politics. Unfortunately, it's just another example of kids who probably have little discipline at home and bring that into the classroom, which is no longer a place of learning but a state paid babysitter for parents. I feel bad for the students who actually go to school to learn and have to put up with crap like this.

__________________
"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Formerly Medusa

kid astronaut

i am surprised at how many people seem to think that pledging allegiance should be mandatory. the idea seems ridiculous to me-- to compel through force allegiance the idea that we should all be at liberty and have the freedom to do what we want to do.

i am probably a lot fresher out of school than most people in this discussion, so i'll just mention how i felt when i was forced to stand and pledge allegiance (and yes, i was forced.)

i felt that my rights were being mocked, basically, by dictating how and when i would celebrate my freedom. i love my country and i want to pay tribute to it, but forcing the tribute (and teaching me exactly what words i have to say to express it) cheapens it, to me. especially for the people who AREN'T being compelled.

the thing that i love most about democracy is freedom to dissent. that freedom has to be respected, especially when we are paying tribute to democracy itself.

MSD

The faculty of a public school have no right to restrict freedom of expression. Of all places, a government-run institution should be the one to most strictly defend our rights as defined in the Constitution.

These students chose their methods poorly, but what the teacher by pulling the chair out from under him was not discipline, it was assualt and should be prosecuted for it.

Lin

Just out of interest...Im English...If I moved to America and sent my children to an American school ...would my kids be expected/forced to stand up to the American Anthem and Pledge Allegience?

Gilda

Lin: It differs from place to place, and within schools from classroom to classroom. Most schools would allow you to register an objection to participation with the teacher and/or principal and allow your kids to opt out by sitting quietly. Certain religious groups are routinely allowed to do so. I personally don't see the point of a daily pledge, but neither do I find it objectionable so long as participation is entirely voluntary.

The Pledge of Allegience is read daily over the intercom system at the school where I teach. Students in my class have the option of standing and participating, standing but not reciting, or sitting quitetly for the duration if they for whatever reason decide they do not want to participate. The only requirement is that they be silent during the pledge out of respect for those who do choose to recite it.

The teacher here was a little out of line, but there's not enough here to judge his abilities as a teacher overall. It could be one bad day, or it could be the culmination of a lot of pushing by the students.

The boys here who were secretly recording things and then published the recording without the participants permission were way out of line and deserved severe punishment.

Willravel

Would you pledge your alleigence to a counrty "under Shiva"? or maybe a country "under Ra, the sun god"? Religion is rarely irrelevant in cases where is is mentioned. It is the right of every American to worship as he or she believes, which includes not pledging alleigence to a country "under God". It's a valid argument.

Heh. So how many years have you defended freedom? And even if you were in the military, whaty did you actually personally acomplish for freedom and democracy? I have two uncles, two grandfathers and generations of men in my family that served America in the military. I've written 3 articles that have appeard in national military publications. Don't assume that the only thing I do all day is complain on a message board.

What does that have to do with anything? My grandfather was shot a total of 11 times in 3 wars. He openly disagreed with Desert Storm before he died. Was he an "anna nicole smith"-american, too?

Instead of blindly following those who would twist and use the sacrafice of that man to selfish ends, I choose to fight and be ever vigilent in the fight to keep America a free and liberated country. Instead of saying, "I agree with everything this administration does because they were elected, and therefore they are always right," I say "What they are doing right now is undermining the rights and freedoms that made America uniqe in it's conception, and has inspired many other countries to adopt freedom and rule of the common man as being the best form of government." Drones folow orders blindly without thought. Patriots pretect their countries from all threats, both foreign and domestic.

I hate to dissapoint, but he is on track to be valedictorian of his magnet highschool. He has gone to the state competition in the schience olympiad (just like his big brother once did), and the reason he's taking a job at subway is to pay for a summer trip to Korea to visit the roots of his tae kwando school. He, so far, is a success in life by every measure I can think of.

Your assumption of his being ungrateful is childish and narrow to say the least. I suggest that you rethink your position on what is "disgusting" or not, but I understand why you don't. I wouldn't want to consider the fact that when I turn my magnifying glass on myslef, I might find some serious errors in judgment either.

CrAzEd

I know the kid named Corey. Corey Zappo. He has a huge freaking beard.

Redjake

That's exactly what these kids need, a drill instructor

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Off the record, on the q.t., and very hush-hush.

Willravel

You're almost certianally right about that. Those kids have no comprehension of authority or how to show respect to those who deserve it. The problem is that the teacher is not a drill instructor, he is a high school teacher. That means he had no right to act like that. Both parties were at serious fault.

CMH

I've been out of school for about a year. At the time I hated it. I was a bad student, and a little dickhead, although at the time I thought I was always right. Looking back, I probably would have gotten a better education if a teacher would have beaten my ass and put me in my place. Teachers have absolutely no power. DETENTION! BOO-YA! That'll teach em!

So this turd got a chair pulled out from under him... big deal. People get blown up everyday. Who cares? I bet he went straight home and whined to his parents. I know that's what I would have done.

"Just out of interest...Im English...If I moved to America and sent my children to an American school ...would my kids be expected/forced to stand up to the American Anthem and Pledge Allegience?"

If I went to England, I'd stand out of respect, but not actually recite anything. To me that seems like the best compromise... not pledging allegiance to anything, and also not showing disrespect to your host country.

Redjake

I don't know where a lot of you guys went to school at, but this isn't that big of a deal The teacher didn't deck the student or beat him into a pulp. The students need to grow the fuck up. The reason I have such a strong attitude on this is because I've recently been there (just graduated 3 years ago) and I remember/know how students push buttons. It's not like the school was making the student give the principal a blowjob or something. Just stand up. Not that big of a deal.

Reminds me of a situation in my Technological Studies class in high school (capstone technology course for seniors). The teacher asked everyone to get out of the lab and into the class to explain a new procedure for our projects or something. One of my friends was working on his project with the bandsaw and refused to leave. He cited the fact he had rights and didn't have to do what the teacher said, he could do whatever he wanted to. "you can't make me do anything." My friend got in an assload of trouble, almost kicked out of the class, the inability to drive to school for a couple of weeks (took away parking pass), and guess what, he didn't do it again. Just pay respect to those who deserve it and get over yourselves.

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Off the record, on the q.t., and very hush-hush.