For those of you not in the know... tragedy and human despair. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Halx · 01-27-2005, 03:38 PM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...s/train_derail

Quote:

GLENDALE, Calif. - A suicidal man who allegedly parked his SUV in the path of a commuter train and triggered a horrific wreck that killed 11 people was charged with murder and could face the death penalty, authorities said Thursday.

The criminal case moved forward against Juan Manuel Alvarez as police and forensics experts worked to gather evidence from the crime scene and coroner's investigators searched the tangled wreckage for any remaining body parts.

Prosecutors have not decided if they will seek the death penalty against Alvarez, 25, who had been ordered by a court to stay away from his family after his wife alleged he abused drugs and threatened them.

Authorities say he also had slashed his wrists and stabbed himself at some point during his aborted suicide attempt. He remained hospitalized Thursday, and a court hearing was set for Friday.

District Attorney Steve Cooley said Thursday prosecutors were evaluating Alvarez's mental state in deciding a possible punishment, but he asserted that the man's mental issues were no defense.

"His despondency doesn't move me," Cooley said. "The mere fact that he was a little upset or despondent doesn't mean he has a defense for anything."

Authorities say Alvarez drove his green Jeep Cherokee into the path of a Metrolink commuter train early Wednesday. He then changed his mind and got out of the vehicle just before the Jeep was struck by a train heading to Los Angeles, police said. That train derailed, plowed into a parked freight train and struck another train heading in the opposite direction. The second train also derailed.

He stood by as the gruesome chain-reaction wreck scattered debris and bodies over a quarter-mile of track. It was the nation's worst train wreck in nearly six years.

Alvarez was charged with 10 counts of murder, but another count was to be added following the discovery of an 11th body in the mangled trains. Everyone from the crash was accounted for Thursday.

Alvarez's family retained defense attorney Eric A. Chase, but he planned no comment until after Friday's court appearance, said Dann Novak, senior administrator of Chase Law Group.

Court documents show that Alvarez's estranged wife, Carmelita Alvarez, obtained a restraining order against him in December, requiring him to keep away from her, their 3-year-old son and other family members.

"He is using drugs and has been in and out of rehab twice," she said in asking for the restraining order. "He threatened to take our kid away and to hurt my family members."

Carmelita Alvarez, who went into seclusion shortly after the crash, also had told the court her husband's drug use was triggering hallucinations.

Meanwhile, police began collecting forensic evidence from the scene for the prosecution, using laser measuring devices to create a digital map of the wreckage.

Two large cargo containers were brought in to store evidence. Police Sgt. Tom Lorenz said evidence as large as a rail car may be preserved for the investigation and trial.

Thursday marked a return to business as usual at a nearby Costco store where workers on the early shift were among the first to help injured people out of the wreckage, bringing out fire extinguishers to attack flames that erupted in one car.

"It's a lot better. It was a disaster here yesterday," said Raim Quiros, 29, a Costco tire shop employee who spent the previous day supplying firefighters with pizza, salads and hot dogs.

Separately, a suicidal man who parked his sport utility vehicle on railroad tracks in Orange County was arrested Thursday, said Irvine police Cmdr. Dave Freedland, declining to say if it was a copycat situation. The man drove off when police spotted him and, after a chase, a dispatcher talked him out of suicide during a cell phone call.

My mother was on that train. She's doing ok now. The people who died were in the front car... she was in the second car. She takes this train to work every day. She's gotten to know the passengers. Here is what she sent to me this morning:

The train Accident is really hanging over my head... I have to explain to everyone at work they all were worried about me ...

My neck is so stiff... that I can not look down... even to eat... I had to left up my plate to see where to put the knife.

Don broke his leg below the knee... He went into surgery this morning... Last night after they go him to the Hospital... he was feeling no pain... However there are 11 people that died... and I knew by face a few of them... that is so sad.... The man that caused this accident should be left alone to commit suicide... they should not try to stop him

My mom is not the most opinionated person... at least, she doesn't share much of her opinions with me, so this is very revealing to me. And it gets me thinking...

At this point, is this person even worthy of therapy? Does he deserve the attention to actually repair his shattered life? Should he just be left to his own devices now... and just be left to exterminate himself? Why would we even try to prevent him from doing it after this?

I think we as a society are too caught up in the value of life. A life, to me, is only as valueable as it sees itself. The ban on euthanasia, the entire concept of suicide negotiators... none of it makes sense to me. Let the fuckers die how they want to. Are we afraid for their souls or something? They are troubled people. They are sick people.

Now, I realize I may be rubbing a LOT of people the wrong way. I realize that there are tons of you who have contemplated and even attempted suicide before. I realize that you're now healthy, functioning human beings who are living a happy life and making the lives of people around you better. And it wouldn't be so if not for the efforts of your friends or social workers to get you on the right track. Great. A success story. Fine.

You were worthy. You had people who cared about you enough to help you. This guy was worthless. This guy has done enough damage. He's used his worthless life to end those of 11 others who valued who they were. They had people who cared about them.. who depended on them.

Let us all be the masters of our own destiny.

Fourtyrulz · 01-27-2005, 03:47 PM

Wow Halx, I hadn't even heard of the wreck. I don't think I could deal with all that without some help, she's quite the mom if she can handle both the physical and emotion stress. I hope she feels better soon.

I've said it before on the TFP, if someone proves to the world that they are unfit to live in society by taking another person's life then that person should be put to death. Maybe Alvarez will kill himself in prison, but there's no reason why they should try to rehabilitate him. He has proven himself unfit, let him die.

Konichiwaneko · 01-27-2005, 03:51 PM

I don't believe you should give pity to people who want to commit suicide, I believe though it's still a good idea to consul them and ask them if it's the right thing to do.

As I told you on IRC, my old room mate and basically brother put two .45's in his body and took his life away just last week. I personally don't think he's going to burn in hell for doing that, and I realize it was his choice. What I do know though is I wished I talked to him, as I said not out of pity, but to help both of us understand.

This guy went a step to far, the consequence of your internal battle should not hinder the lives and rights of others around you. By hinder I mean take their lives away, or take their rights away. I'm sure there's a lot of meaning that can be taken out from what I just wrote, but I find myself hard to put it in words right now.

C4 Diesel · 01-27-2005, 03:52 PM

Hey, man... I'm a libertarian. What people do with their lives are their own decision. The idiocy of it all surprises me, though. If you're gonna kill yourself, there are plenty of other, less difficult, less harmful to others, less destructive ways to do it. Lock your garage and sit in it with your car on. Shoot yourself in the head. Do enough heroin to kill a whale. Jump off a bridge. I don't think any of us could possibly rationalize this guy's train of thought.

Glad your mom's doing okay, Hal.

bermuDa · 01-27-2005, 03:55 PM

i think that euthanasia should be acceptable when it's to relieve suffering, but I think that suicide is one of the most selfish things someone can do. many attempts are merely attempts because they are cries for help/attention. In the end if somoone REALLY wants to kill themselves then by all means, but when it involves taking anyone else with them, they need to be put down immediately.

so this guy is facing the death penalty for a botched suicide that killed 11 others? I say let him rot in jail and make sure he lives a long time.

Halx · 01-27-2005, 03:58 PM

A little ditty about suicide: On average, males usually default to more violent, final means of suicide like a gun to the head. Females usually go for the 'cry for help' methods like slitting wrists or downing pills.

Coppertop · 01-27-2005, 03:59 PM

I hadn't heard of this wreck either. Glad to hear your mother's ok.

I'm all for legal suicide, but this was a backasswards way to go about it. Killing yourself in your own home is one thing, derailing multiple trains is another.

Grasshopper Green · 01-27-2005, 04:09 PM

It's impossible for me to fathom what this guy was thinking. In my opinion, he deserves to go to prison. Glad that your mom made it though, Halx.

Cadwiz · 01-27-2005, 04:12 PM

I whole-heartedly believe that if someone wants to end their life, so be it. I have often pondered the euthanasia thing. I mean if I am terminally ill and in so much pain I can't function, I should be allowed to have a humane end my suffering.
This guy should be strapped to the bottom of a wrecking ball and dropped from a few stories. Glad your Ma is ok.

flstf · 01-27-2005, 04:29 PM

I think what happened in this wreck is horrible and sympathize with the victims. I also think the guy should be given the opportunity to end it all.

People should be legally able to end it all if they choose. I have seen some die after suffering long and hard and will take my life before going through all that they have. Yes, it's cowardly but so what.

But I won't go so far as to claim this guy is worthless until we know more about him. I don't know if he knew that by chickening out and leaving his car on the tracks that he was going to cause a train wreck. I was surprised when I heard the cause myself. I had no idea a SUV could derail an entire train, much less two of them.

Hanabal · 01-27-2005, 04:42 PM

although i agree that this guy doesnt deserve our help and is a worthless lump of organic matter, i also dont think we should let him die. he needs to be punished, and if he's suicidal then death is what he wants. send him to GitMo or something.

When you take anothers life, you dont deserve anything

glad to know your moms ok tho.

stingc · 01-27-2005, 04:44 PM

If he wanted to die before, he must really feel terrible now... I doubt this guy realized that what he was doing would derail the train. The charges could probably be easily talked down to manslaughter, but I think he'll find a way to kill himself eventually.

martinguerre · 01-27-2005, 04:48 PM

while i'm sorry to hear your mother was injured, i do take exception to the remainder of your commentary.

Quote:

This guy was worthless.

That's a phrase that only gets easier to say with repitition...and i'm much too afraid of what happens when we find it easy to discard human life. You wouldn't say this about someone suffering from cancer...and mental illness is no less a biological disorder. Higher rate of sucess in treatment, too.

*Nikki* · 01-27-2005, 04:50 PM

When I saw that happened in Simi Valley on CNN I thought about you and wondered if you knew anything about what happened.

I never imagined your mom would be involved! I am glad to hear she is ok.

appleseed · 01-27-2005, 05:13 PM

When I heard about this my first reaction was , "I hope someone from the train's brother gets this guy before the cops do". I don't necessarily even believe his suicide story, why not drive off the damn tracks if you are going to chicken out? Whatever happens to this piece of garbage is too good for him.

ICER · 01-27-2005, 06:02 PM

We have to help him because it the humane thing to do. If we just put a bullet to his head because he's a worthless fuck-up who can't even end his own life without screwing up. The we become no better then him. Worthless,

Don't get me wrong, I'm in full favor of capital punishment. But want do you do when they a-hole wants to die? Want kind of punishment is it to grant what he wants? How do you kill a monster like this, without becoming one ourselves? True, two wrongs don't make a right, But what about 11 wrongs? What about the other countless wrongs that you’re wrong effected? How can he be made to pay for that? These are old questions I do not have an answer for.

Sadly, all I can say is “I grieve for their loss, and am glad that many other lived. my prayers go out to any effected by tragedy"

munchen · 01-27-2005, 06:08 PM

I'm sorry for your mom halx

, but I've got to disagree with you. I don't think this guy should be killed for his actions or put in an ass rape prison. i don't beleive anybody should be killed or put in an ass rape prison. I do think he needs to be seperated from society though, and rehabilitated.

Two things make people what they are, genetics and enviroment. People don't get to choose their genetics and they don't get to choose the enviroment they were brought up in. Leaving him to suffer doesn't alleiviate the suffering of others and it doesn't stop the production of troubled people in society, so why would we do it? It just sounds like bloodlust and revenge to me. I think we are how we treat others, if we leave him to suffer when we can help, I don't beleive we are any better than him.

Why is he worthy of therapy? He's worthy because he needs help. The way to stop this kind of thing from happening is through rehabilitation and through better identification of these troubled individuals. "Leaving him to his own devices" wont fix anything. The revenge and punishment system doesn't work, it has never worked, and it will never work. Maybe if we let loose the proffesionals on this guy we might find out how to help him and in turn how to help others in the future, others that may have heading towards this kind of thing. I think thats what needs to be done here.

The article said that he had problems of drug abuse before this incident. If there was a better system of rehabilitation in place he may after been helped before this incident. A restraining order is going to fix things!? come on. I dont think the drugs rehab programs we have in place are nearly sufficient.

Quote:

I realize that you're now healthy, functioning human beings who are living a happy life and making the lives of people around you better. And it wouldn't be so if not for the efforts of your friends or social workers to get you on the right track. Great. A success story. Fine.

That success story could have been a guy on his way to parking his car on the tracks. I realize that no matter how good the system is there will be some that slip through the tracks, but this looks like a failure of the system to me. They knew he had drug abuse problems, they knew he had other mental problems. We need to learn how to fix these people, not punish them.

With regard to your mom, please get her to see someone about her neck. Necks are something you should take very seriously, and they tend to have a ripple effect througout the body. I had a bad neck injury and i think you should be careful. I hope she feels better soon

Fourtyrulz · 01-27-2005, 06:21 PM

Quote:

We need to learn how to fix these people, not punish them.

Helping confused, depressed, suicidal people is one thing, but this man is completely responsible for taking the lives of 11 people and injuring many more. I agree that we need to learn more about helping these people BEFORE they do something, but what's done is done in Alvarez's case. What good is helping him now that he has human blood on his hands? I'd think the severe depression from knowing this would just multiply his reasons for wanting to kill himself, and I wouldn't blame him nor stop him.

Halx · 01-27-2005, 06:24 PM

By what logic does one come by the notion that we are just as worthless if we let him take his own life? Seriously, those ideals cannot be bread upon any secular, rational reasoning. There has to be something looming above your heads to think that way. I don't believe in your morals. I refuse to let you enforce them on me. So, if I want to die, then you interfering with me doing that would essentially be sticking your nose where it does not belong.

What IS this fear of moral decay within a society? It's nothing more than people trying to dictate the way other people should live. Furthermore, they are dictating how they should act in private, in instances that have no direct effect on others. In my opinion, there is no judgement to be had for these people who live apart from me, because they have no effect on who I am and what I do. The same should apply to everyone... so why do people meddle?

In conclusion, morals are ficticious and those who seek to uphold them in others are doing nothing but proselytizing. A life is nothing more than a moving, functioning body with a conscience. If it wants to end itself, the act of preventing that desire is inhumane. Those who believe otherwise, in my opinion, attribute way more to existence than is absolutely necessary to function, assign more weight to a given situation or object than is necessary to perceive it rationally, and fear for unneccesary things with no basis of proof, thus are unfit to tell me how I should live or die.

hotzot · 01-27-2005, 06:37 PM

Halx, sorry to hear about your mom. I hope she gets better soon. I take care of alot of suicide attempts. Some fail on purpose, they chicken out, they feel it's the only way they can get attention.

munchen · 01-27-2005, 07:09 PM

Quote:

I agree that we need to learn more about helping these people BEFORE they do something, but what's done is done in Alvarez's case. What good is helping him now that he has human blood on his hands?

Maybe if we can help him we can learn from him, learn how to help others with the same affliction. I think if its possible to get any good out of this we should try to.

Halx, i think you are misinterpreting me. First of all i was not trying reffering to the degrading morals of society, and I wasn't trying to force anything on you. From what I've read so far I think you're a very intelligent person, I respect your opinions and I know you can make up your own mind.

Quote:

Leaving him to suffer doesn't alleiviate the suffering of others and it doesn't stop the production of troubled people in society, so why would we do it? It just sounds like bloodlust and revenge to me. I think we are how we treat others, if we leave him to suffer when we can help, I don't beleive we are any better than him.

This was mostly about prison and the death penalty. I find inflicting suffering on a person for inflicting suffering on people very hypocritical. It can also be very counter productive.

I agree with you that some people should be left to their own devices, but really sick people being left to their own devices can end up in situations like this. Its for the benifit of a healthier society that we help these people and correct these problems before they escalate.

As for the fear of degrading morals in society. I'm under the impression that this has been a fear of all generations in every society. It's all perspective, and until we all have the same perspective i don't think its going anywhere. I dont think it's anything new, and it definitly can be people trying to dictate how you should live. I just try to approach things with an open mind and hope for the best.

IC3 · 01-27-2005, 07:11 PM

I just wanna say that first Glad to hear your Mother is well, even if she has a sore neck..i'm sure she's very thankfull as you and the rest of your family are that she was on the 2nd car and not the 1st.

Being suicidle is one thing, but when you attempt to take others with you that are just going about thier day, Then yes i hope that he gets the death penalty.

I did not read every post in this thread but i noticed some calling people who are suicidle as "Selfish" and "Attention Seekers" That's fine, But if youve never suffered from serious depression or have had thoughts about ending your life..then i don't think you can label somebody who is suicidle as selfish or somebody who is looking for attention, Maybe some people say they are just for that purpose, But i think anybody who actually is suffering..The only attention they may want is the attention of somebody who is gonna help try to help them.

I have had these thoughts in the past due to depression and things that happened in my childhood, and i am in no way selfish or an attention seeker, I never told anybody or seeked help. There were days i was fine..then other days where i felt like complete shit.

I haven't had a thought about ending it for over 4 months, And if it ever does come back..I am gonna seek help...Not "Attention".

Livia Regina · 01-27-2005, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by munchen

Two things make people what they are, genetics and enviroment. People don't get to choose their genetics and they don't get to choose the enviroment they were brought up in.

But they do get to choose what they make of those circumstances and should be held responsible for those choices. He had every right to try to commit suicide if he so desired but he had no right to try take anyone else with him. I think it would be better for everyone involved if he went through with his suicide - it would cost the taxpayers less money and his wife and kid would be safer. If he had gotten his car off the tracks because he didn't want to die, there would be no problem with helping him get better. When he left the car on the tracks he chose to take the consequences of his actions and lost his right to help and life. What did he think was going to happen when the train hit the car? That it would go right through without touching it?

iamnormal · 01-27-2005, 08:02 PM

Do you all feel suicide is a natural thing to do and its the sign of a heathy brain?
Is that guy a monster because he tried to kill himself or because in that action it killed 11 people?
If the train didn't derail and noone on the train got hurt but the guy stayed in the truck and died. Would he still have been seen as a monster?
Should he have known that the train would derail because it's common knowledge trucks will derail a train? How many times have you seen in movies or tv, trains derailing when hitting vehicles?

I'm not trying to depart from the tragedy of this event. Just trying to figure out why I'm not feeling the hate. I probley am mentaly insufficient.

Demeter · 01-27-2005, 08:06 PM

At first, reading the post I felt bad for the suicidal man. I have been thisclose myself to that kind of action. Then I read about the drug problems. That made a big difference in my judgment. I imagine the chances for re-hab in this guy are slim, especially in a drug-filled jail. I feel awful for those hurt in the crash, and the families of those who lost loved ones.
An awful tragedy.

munchen · 01-27-2005, 08:27 PM

Quote:

But they do get to choose what they make of those circumstances and should be held responsible for those choices.

What you will choose to do with your circumstances depends on what your genetics are and how they have been influenced through the enviroment.

The first thing they told us in my Brain and Behaviour class(the first class in neuroscience) is that free will is an illusion created by the frontal lobe. there are studies to back this up. My internet searchin' skills are abismal but if i can find studies i will post them. Wether or not this is true, or true to this extent is a discussion for another thread. Though I beleive there is a much heavier influence on his decisions by genetics and enviroment than you give credit to.

Grancey · 01-27-2005, 08:33 PM

The discussion of possible rehabilitation for this man is pointless and too late. He has committed murder and will be dealt with accordingly. We cannot learn from mass murderers. No one parks a car/truck/SUV on a train track without thinking that the train might derail. Unfortunately, the design of this train made derailment a higher possibility. This man knowingly involved innocent people in his failed attempt at self-destruction. There are plenty of ways to attempt suicide without involving other people. Do I feel sorry for him? No. Do I feel sorry for his family? Yes. They are suffering as much as the passengers on the train.

And Hal, I do hope your mother talks to someone about what has happened. This is an extremely stressful situation that can cause lingering effects. We are relieved that she is okay. Please talk to her often. She may still feel the need to discuss her opinions with you.

clavus · 01-27-2005, 09:06 PM

Good God, people! Halx's mom is NOT OK. She has a fucked up neck! Halx, I'm so sorry your mom was injured by that piece of shit. It's terrible. I hope she she doesn't try to be a tough girl and let it heal on its own. Encourage her to see a doctor, chiropractor, PT, etc.

Regarding the murderer, someone ought to take him out. Thin the herd. What good does it serve to waste our resources on a defective piece of human garbage?

God, I feel terrible about your mom.

guthmund · 01-27-2005, 09:22 PM

I have no problems with suicide. If someone feels that his life is so worthless that the only viable option is to end it, who am I to stand in the way? If his life is worthless to himself, why should it be worth more to me?

Where this guy stepped over the line was parking his truck on the track. While he couldn't possibly have predicted what happened, he surely was intelligent enough to guess that something was going to happen. It's not polite to involve unwilling participants in your little suicide plots.

He killed 11 people. According to the law, justice must be served. He should have to pay for that crime and settle his bill with society before he's allowed to check out. It's obvious this guy doesn't care if he dies, so I would suggest that the state make him live. Put him in prison and make him live until he's repaid his debt.

I am certainly sorry, Hal, that your mom happened to be caught up in this guy's twisted slice of self-indulgence. I hope she gets better and seeks the help she needs, not just physicians and orthopedic specialists, either. I imagine there's a lot of emotional issues tied up into this as well. She will get better. It's what we do. Until then best wishes to your family.

martinguerre · 01-27-2005, 10:21 PM

Quote:

In conclusion, morals are ficticious

Roper: So now you’d give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I’d cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you—where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country’s planted thick with laws from coast to coast—man’s laws, not God’s—and if you cut them down—and you’re just the man to do it—d’you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake.

That's from "A Man For All Seasons" by Robert Bolt. The discussion is between Thomas Moore and his son in law Roper.

Switch morals, and laws...and that's about my point. We practice an imperfect and often unsatisfying morality, even when it protects the repugnant...because the alternative is the only thing that's worse. Indulging the fantasy that we are not inexorably harmed by the damage we do to others can only lead tragedy.

Protecting this man doesn't sound like much of a laudible goal...but if the alternative is to declare him non-human because he happens to be poor and aflicted with a disease...then i find it hard to fathom that we have not endangered ourselves.

Halx · 01-27-2005, 11:50 PM

x != y, therefore x = z?

I would say you're living on a different plane of reality if you find any danger in tuning your mind to a different frequency. I find only adventure.

Perhaps I'd take what you have to say a bit more seriously if morality wasn't simply a badge people slap on their chest to be recognized as good people. Who's holding them to it? 2.4 billion years of this earth and we've only just now in the last couple thousand years decided to give the sick ones a mulligan?

"All we are is dust in the wind" - Bill and Ted

The concept of morality will either change or die as time goes on. You can't prevent it from happening. I've chosen to accept it for what it is... a fleeting dash of food coloring that people add to the soup of life to give themselves a little comfort as they occupy this world for the duration of an eye blink. Knowing this, I'm able to occupy myself with more amuzing things... might as well have fun during this short little stint I've got.

warrrreagl · 01-28-2005, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konichiwaneko

I don't believe you should give pity to people who want to commit suicide, I believe though it's still a good idea to consul them and ask them if it's the right thing to do.

I'll go a step further than that. I am strongly against using taxpayer money to install suicide prevention rails and cages on bridges. If somebody wants to jump, then let them. Don't make me have to pay to temporarily prevent them from doing something they're going to do anyway.

If I have a family member or friend who is suicidal, I will intervene all that I can and try to help as much as possible, but I wouldn't be so presumptious as to depend on government agencies to do the job for me by building barricades.

In high school, I knew a fireman volunteer who described a scene where a suicidal mother had killed herself and her abused daughter. His view was that although the young daughter was dead, she was probably better off. She would have had to endure many more years of abuse and then would have had kids of her own and repeated the cycle. At least this way, the gene pool was dead. Sometimes, suicide may be nature's way of getting someone to lean into the plate and take one for the team.

And Hal I am really sorry to hear about your mother's ordeal. I am thankful she's okay, but it sucks that some of the faces she knew have vanished.

ARTelevision · 01-28-2005, 06:17 AM

Stunning how a distant story one hears via the media ends up having a deeply personal connection.

I have always been a proponent of public suicide booths - as easily accessible to adults as phone booths once were. It is absolutely none of our business to put impediments in the way of adults who want to end their lives.

veruca · 01-28-2005, 06:19 AM

so true art...I felt sad about it, but didn't give a second thought...but now that halx's mom is involved...I am so glad she is ok

roachboy · 01-28-2005, 07:44 AM

strange situation.

first, it is indeed good to read that nothing really terrible happened to your mother, hal: and i too wish her a speedy recovery from what did happen to her.

as for mr. alvarez:

first i am surprised that the charge is murder not manslaughter--from the story, it hardly seems plausible that there was premeditation. i assume the charge is a function of the magnitude of the outcome, not his particular relation to it. and i assume that, if he has a decent lawyer, that the charge will be bargained down. it is also pretty clear that the defense is going to hinge on (temporary) insanity---the material about drug usage and hallucination is obviously not arbitrary.
all you actually have detail about in the article is the legal strategies that are going to come into play in court.

as for the cheerleading above for capital punishment in this case: i oppose capital punishment in general. but in a situation where there is obviously questions as to the coherence of motive, i think advocating execution ridiculous. and i do not think it will happen--unless of course mr. alvarez is poor and cant afford an adequately skilled lawyer--given that cash is the index that determines the kind of "justice" you have access to in america (good legal representation, like quality health care, seems to tbe the purview of the wealthy)

second, i cant see from this what kind of judgements folk are able to draw about the suicide attempt itself--you have the outline of a fucked up series of events, but not much of anything about the surrounding circumstances.
so i dont see what basis there is for trotting out general positions vis-a-vis suicide.
what is a suicide in general?
isnt suicide always a deeply particular act?

is there a social obligation to prevent suicide?
i would imagine that a prolife position, in order to be consistent, would be forced to argue that suicide is a priori bad and that every attempts should be made to prolong life, no matter what--but then you see anti-choice positions mixed with support for capital punishment, war, etc...so obviously consistency is not an issue.

i do not have a real position on this--the particularity of the decision to commit suicide would seem to me to abstract it from the social domain.

but should there be free access to psychological services in general?
in a more civilized form of capitalism, this would not even be a question--of course there should be. these services would be indirectly geared toward suicide prevention--but would not in the final analysis do much of anything in to prevent individuals from choosing it as a way out.

i am surprised to see so much in the way of "let em die, who gives a shit?" in this thread. i wonder where this comes from. over the years i have have acquaintances and one firend do themselves in--some quickly (guns) some slowly (rock). on the quck suicides, i was surprised, but did not really know the people...on the slow one, the one frm rock usage, i was closely involved....i let go only very slowly, conceded defeat with great pain and great reluctance. even after i had to let go, could do nothing more than watch how things wound down, there was no point at which i was able to simply say to myself anything like "this guy is fucked, let him die, who cares?"
i loved the guy, it was horrible to be walked into this scenario, to have to watch the denouement without being able to do anything to stop it---social darwinimst arguments--there as here--seemed to me cheap and weak.

ARTelevision · 01-28-2005, 09:06 AM

roachboy, for me it is quite simple.
I understand the implications of living within a socio-cultural matrix.
However, it does seem significantly axiomatic to me to allow a human being to have ultimate responsibility for the decision to end his or her life.

I think we can work that through the social matrix well enough for it to be a viable way to conduct ourselves. To my way of thinking, it is an important way to have a society set up.

roachboy · 01-28-2005, 09:23 AM

art:

actually, i did not intend to make a counter argument, i dont think--i was more expressing a kind of deep ambivalence about suicide as a topic for discussion in general, and through that a more focussed ambivalence about the social darwinist business.

i dunno--it seems that it is possible for people to get knocked off the matrix, if you like, based on conjunctural matters--a particularly crappy turn of events--without that entailing judgements as to the whole of that person. it does not seem to me that there is any way to know or predict this. whence the ambivalence about the matter as one that can be discussed in general terms.

01-28-2005, 09:31 AM

1-The loss of human life is tragic.
2-You can only pass judgement on your own life, to do so for another is wrong (I dont think enough people understand this)

"In the time of your life live so that in that good time there shall be no ugliness or death for yourself, or any life that your life touches. Seek goodness everywhere and when it is found, bring it out of the hiding place let it be free and unashamed."

<edit> Sorry about your mom halx, i'm sure i speak not only for myself but for all of TFP when i wish her a fast recovery.

Xell101 · 01-30-2005, 06:17 PM

We're a free society, unless you're staggeringly fucked or really not right physiologically you ought reap what you sow, be it to your benefit or detriment. His dumb ass killed eleven people, injured many more, damaged a lot of property, and longs for that sweet, sweet release. At minimum he should be put in prison and given the option of swift, painless death.

Lebell · 01-30-2005, 06:22 PM

wow, Glad your mom is ok.

That's a horrible story and it is easy to want revenge, but I don't think killing this man is the answer.

For one thing, it can't even be called "a deterent". It is revenge, plain and simple.

And while I understand the urge (oh how I understand), I can't justify it.

As to the "worthwhileness" of this man's life, that isn't mine to judge.

01-27-2005, 03:47 PM	#2 (permalink)
Fourtyrulz Psycho Location: io-where?	Wow Halx, I hadn't even heard of the wreck. I don't think I could deal with all that without some help, she's quite the mom if she can handle both the physical and emotion stress. I hope she feels better soon. I've said it before on the TFP, if someone proves to the world that they are unfit to live in society by taking another person's life then that person should be put to death. Maybe Alvarez will kill himself in prison, but there's no reason why they should try to rehabilitate him. He has proven himself unfit, let him die. __________________ the·o·ry - a working hypothesis that is considered probable based on experimental evidence or factual or conceptual analysis and is accepted as a basis for experimentation. faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. - Merriam-Webster's dictionary

01-27-2005, 03:51 PM	#3 (permalink)
Konichiwaneko The Dreaded Pixel Nazi Location: Inside my camera	I don't believe you should give pity to people who want to commit suicide, I believe though it's still a good idea to consul them and ask them if it's the right thing to do. As I told you on IRC, my old room mate and basically brother put two .45's in his body and took his life away just last week. I personally don't think he's going to burn in hell for doing that, and I realize it was his choice. What I do know though is I wished I talked to him, as I said not out of pity, but to help both of us understand. This guy went a step to far, the consequence of your internal battle should not hinder the lives and rights of others around you. By hinder I mean take their lives away, or take their rights away. I'm sure there's a lot of meaning that can be taken out from what I just wrote, but I find myself hard to put it in words right now. __________________ Hesitate. Pull me in. Breath on breath. Skin on skin. Loving deep. Falling fast. All right here. Let this last. Here with our lips locked tight. Baby the time is right for us... to forget about us.

01-27-2005, 03:52 PM	#4 (permalink)
C4 Diesel Crazy Location: Troy, NY	Hey, man... I'm a libertarian. What people do with their lives are their own decision. The idiocy of it all surprises me, though. If you're gonna kill yourself, there are plenty of other, less difficult, less harmful to others, less destructive ways to do it. Lock your garage and sit in it with your car on. Shoot yourself in the head. Do enough heroin to kill a whale. Jump off a bridge. I don't think any of us could possibly rationalize this guy's train of thought. Glad your mom's doing okay, Hal. __________________ C4 to your door, no beef no more...

01-27-2005, 03:55 PM	#5 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	i think that euthanasia should be acceptable when it's to relieve suffering, but I think that suicide is one of the most selfish things someone can do. many attempts are merely attempts because they are cries for help/attention. In the end if somoone REALLY wants to kill themselves then by all means, but when it involves taking anyone else with them, they need to be put down immediately. so this guy is facing the death penalty for a botched suicide that killed 11 others? I say let him rot in jail and make sure he lives a long time. __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

01-27-2005, 03:58 PM	#6 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	A little ditty about suicide: On average, males usually default to more violent, final means of suicide like a gun to the head. Females usually go for the 'cry for help' methods like slitting wrists or downing pills. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

01-27-2005, 03:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	I hadn't heard of this wreck either. Glad to hear your mother's ok. I'm all for legal suicide, but this was a backasswards way to go about it. Killing yourself in your own home is one thing, derailing multiple trains is another.

01-27-2005, 04:09 PM	#8 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	It's impossible for me to fathom what this guy was thinking. In my opinion, he deserves to go to prison. Glad that your mom made it though, Halx.

01-27-2005, 04:12 PM	#9 (permalink)
Cadwiz Insane Location: work	I whole-heartedly believe that if someone wants to end their life, so be it. I have often pondered the euthanasia thing. I mean if I am terminally ill and in so much pain I can't function, I should be allowed to have a humane end my suffering. This guy should be strapped to the bottom of a wrecking ball and dropped from a few stories. Glad your Ma is ok. __________________ Semper Fi

01-27-2005, 04:29 PM	#10 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	I think what happened in this wreck is horrible and sympathize with the victims. I also think the guy should be given the opportunity to end it all. People should be legally able to end it all if they choose. I have seen some die after suffering long and hard and will take my life before going through all that they have. Yes, it's cowardly but so what. But I won't go so far as to claim this guy is worthless until we know more about him. I don't know if he knew that by chickening out and leaving his car on the tracks that he was going to cause a train wreck. I was surprised when I heard the cause myself. I had no idea a SUV could derail an entire train, much less two of them.

01-27-2005, 04:42 PM	#11 (permalink)
Hanabal Insane Location: Auckland	although i agree that this guy doesnt deserve our help and is a worthless lump of organic matter, i also dont think we should let him die. he needs to be punished, and if he's suicidal then death is what he wants. send him to GitMo or something. When you take anothers life, you dont deserve anything glad to know your moms ok tho. __________________ I am Hanabal, Phear my elephants

01-27-2005, 04:44 PM	#12 (permalink)
stingc Psycho Location: PA	If he wanted to die before, he must really feel terrible now... I doubt this guy realized that what he was doing would derail the train. The charges could probably be easily talked down to manslaughter, but I think he'll find a way to kill himself eventually.

01-27-2005, 04:50 PM	#14 (permalink)
Nikki ~~~~~~~ Location: Charleston, SC	When I saw that happened in Simi Valley on CNN I thought about you and wondered if you knew anything about what happened. I never imagined your mom would be involved! I am glad to hear she is ok.

01-27-2005, 05:13 PM	#15 (permalink)
appleseed Tilted Location: Wisconsin	When I heard about this my first reaction was , "I hope someone from the train's brother gets this guy before the cops do". I don't necessarily even believe his suicide story, why not drive off the damn tracks if you are going to chicken out? Whatever happens to this piece of garbage is too good for him.

01-27-2005, 06:02 PM	#16 (permalink)
ICER Chilled to Perfection Location: Dallas, TX	We have to help him because it the humane thing to do. If we just put a bullet to his head because he's a worthless fuck-up who can't even end his own life without screwing up. The we become no better then him. Worthless, Don't get me wrong, I'm in full favor of capital punishment. But want do you do when they a-hole wants to die? Want kind of punishment is it to grant what he wants? How do you kill a monster like this, without becoming one ourselves? True, two wrongs don't make a right, But what about 11 wrongs? What about the other countless wrongs that you’re wrong effected? How can he be made to pay for that? These are old questions I do not have an answer for. Sadly, all I can say is “I grieve for their loss, and am glad that many other lived. my prayers go out to any effected by tragedy" __________________ What's the difference between congress and a penitentiary? One is filled with tax evaders, blackmailers and threats to society. The other is for housing prisoners. ~~David Letterman

01-27-2005, 06:24 PM	#19 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	By what logic does one come by the notion that we are just as worthless if we let him take his own life? Seriously, those ideals cannot be bread upon any secular, rational reasoning. There has to be something looming above your heads to think that way. I don't believe in your morals. I refuse to let you enforce them on me. So, if I want to die, then you interfering with me doing that would essentially be sticking your nose where it does not belong. What IS this fear of moral decay within a society? It's nothing more than people trying to dictate the way other people should live. Furthermore, they are dictating how they should act in private, in instances that have no direct effect on others. In my opinion, there is no judgement to be had for these people who live apart from me, because they have no effect on who I am and what I do. The same should apply to everyone... so why do people meddle? In conclusion, morals are ficticious and those who seek to uphold them in others are doing nothing but proselytizing. A life is nothing more than a moving, functioning body with a conscience. If it wants to end itself, the act of preventing that desire is inhumane. Those who believe otherwise, in my opinion, attribute way more to existence than is absolutely necessary to function, assign more weight to a given situation or object than is necessary to perceive it rationally, and fear for unneccesary things with no basis of proof, thus are unfit to tell me how I should live or die. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

01-27-2005, 06:37 PM	#20 (permalink)
hotzot We're having potato pancakes! Location: stalag 13	Halx, sorry to hear about your mom. I hope she gets better soon. I take care of alot of suicide attempts. Some fail on purpose, they chicken out, they feel it's the only way they can get attention. __________________ The Bully Boys are here!

01-27-2005, 07:11 PM	#22 (permalink)
IC3 Poison Location: Canada	I just wanna say that first Glad to hear your Mother is well, even if she has a sore neck..i'm sure she's very thankfull as you and the rest of your family are that she was on the 2nd car and not the 1st. Being suicidle is one thing, but when you attempt to take others with you that are just going about thier day, Then yes i hope that he gets the death penalty. I did not read every post in this thread but i noticed some calling people who are suicidle as "Selfish" and "Attention Seekers" That's fine, But if youve never suffered from serious depression or have had thoughts about ending your life..then i don't think you can label somebody who is suicidle as selfish or somebody who is looking for attention, Maybe some people say they are just for that purpose, But i think anybody who actually is suffering..The only attention they may want is the attention of somebody who is gonna help try to help them. I have had these thoughts in the past due to depression and things that happened in my childhood, and i am in no way selfish or an attention seeker, I never told anybody or seeked help. There were days i was fine..then other days where i felt like complete shit. I haven't had a thought about ending it for over 4 months, And if it ever does come back..I am gonna seek help...Not "Attention". __________________ "To win any battle, you must fight as if you were already dead" -Musashi

01-27-2005, 08:02 PM	#24 (permalink)
iamnormal Addict Location: In the id	Do you all feel suicide is a natural thing to do and its the sign of a heathy brain? Is that guy a monster because he tried to kill himself or because in that action it killed 11 people? If the train didn't derail and noone on the train got hurt but the guy stayed in the truck and died. Would he still have been seen as a monster? Should he have known that the train would derail because it's common knowledge trucks will derail a train? How many times have you seen in movies or tv, trains derailing when hitting vehicles? I'm not trying to depart from the tragedy of this event. Just trying to figure out why I'm not feeling the hate. I probley am mentaly insufficient.

01-27-2005, 08:06 PM	#25 (permalink)
Demeter Psycho	At first, reading the post I felt bad for the suicidal man. I have been thisclose myself to that kind of action. Then I read about the drug problems. That made a big difference in my judgment. I imagine the chances for re-hab in this guy are slim, especially in a drug-filled jail. I feel awful for those hurt in the crash, and the families of those who lost loved ones. An awful tragedy.

01-27-2005, 08:33 PM	#27 (permalink)
Grancey Life's short, gotta hurry... Location: land of pit vipers	The discussion of possible rehabilitation for this man is pointless and too late. He has committed murder and will be dealt with accordingly. We cannot learn from mass murderers. No one parks a car/truck/SUV on a train track without thinking that the train might derail. Unfortunately, the design of this train made derailment a higher possibility. This man knowingly involved innocent people in his failed attempt at self-destruction. There are plenty of ways to attempt suicide without involving other people. Do I feel sorry for him? No. Do I feel sorry for his family? Yes. They are suffering as much as the passengers on the train. And Hal, I do hope your mother talks to someone about what has happened. This is an extremely stressful situation that can cause lingering effects. We are relieved that she is okay. Please talk to her often. She may still feel the need to discuss her opinions with you. __________________ Quiet, mild-mannered souls might just turn out to be roaring lions of two-fisted cool.

01-27-2005, 09:06 PM	#28 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	Good God, people! Halx's mom is NOT OK. She has a fucked up neck! Halx, I'm so sorry your mom was injured by that piece of shit. It's terrible. I hope she she doesn't try to be a tough girl and let it heal on its own. Encourage her to see a doctor, chiropractor, PT, etc. Regarding the murderer, someone ought to take him out. Thin the herd. What good does it serve to waste our resources on a defective piece of human garbage? God, I feel terrible about your mom. __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

01-27-2005, 09:22 PM	#29 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	I have no problems with suicide. If someone feels that his life is so worthless that the only viable option is to end it, who am I to stand in the way? If his life is worthless to himself, why should it be worth more to me? Where this guy stepped over the line was parking his truck on the track. While he couldn't possibly have predicted what happened, he surely was intelligent enough to guess that something was going to happen. It's not polite to involve unwilling participants in your little suicide plots. He killed 11 people. According to the law, justice must be served. He should have to pay for that crime and settle his bill with society before he's allowed to check out. It's obvious this guy doesn't care if he dies, so I would suggest that the state make him live. Put him in prison and make him live until he's repaid his debt. I am certainly sorry, Hal, that your mom happened to be caught up in this guy's twisted slice of self-indulgence. I hope she gets better and seeks the help she needs, not just physicians and orthopedic specialists, either. I imagine there's a lot of emotional issues tied up into this as well. She will get better. It's what we do. Until then best wishes to your family. __________________ No signature. None. Seriously. Last edited by guthmund; 01-27-2005 at 09:30 PM..

01-27-2005, 11:50 PM	#31 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	x != y, therefore x = z? I would say you're living on a different plane of reality if you find any danger in tuning your mind to a different frequency. I find only adventure. Perhaps I'd take what you have to say a bit more seriously if morality wasn't simply a badge people slap on their chest to be recognized as good people. Who's holding them to it? 2.4 billion years of this earth and we've only just now in the last couple thousand years decided to give the sick ones a mulligan? "All we are is dust in the wind" - Bill and Ted The concept of morality will either change or die as time goes on. You can't prevent it from happening. I've chosen to accept it for what it is... a fleeting dash of food coloring that people add to the soup of life to give themselves a little comfort as they occupy this world for the duration of an eye blink. Knowing this, I'm able to occupy myself with more amuzing things... might as well have fun during this short little stint I've got. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

01-28-2005, 06:17 AM	#33 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Stunning how a distant story one hears via the media ends up having a deeply personal connection. I have always been a proponent of public suicide booths - as easily accessible to adults as phone booths once were. It is absolutely none of our business to put impediments in the way of adults who want to end their lives. __________________ create evolution

01-28-2005, 06:19 AM	#34 (permalink)
veruca Psycho Location: 4 privet drive	so true art...I felt sad about it, but didn't give a second thought...but now that halx's mom is involved...I am so glad she is ok __________________ How you turned my world, you precious thing You starve and near exhaust me Everything I've done, I've done for you I move the stars for no one

01-28-2005, 07:44 AM	#35 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	strange situation. first, it is indeed good to read that nothing really terrible happened to your mother, hal: and i too wish her a speedy recovery from what did happen to her. as for mr. alvarez: first i am surprised that the charge is murder not manslaughter--from the story, it hardly seems plausible that there was premeditation. i assume the charge is a function of the magnitude of the outcome, not his particular relation to it. and i assume that, if he has a decent lawyer, that the charge will be bargained down. it is also pretty clear that the defense is going to hinge on (temporary) insanity---the material about drug usage and hallucination is obviously not arbitrary. all you actually have detail about in the article is the legal strategies that are going to come into play in court. as for the cheerleading above for capital punishment in this case: i oppose capital punishment in general. but in a situation where there is obviously questions as to the coherence of motive, i think advocating execution ridiculous. and i do not think it will happen--unless of course mr. alvarez is poor and cant afford an adequately skilled lawyer--given that cash is the index that determines the kind of "justice" you have access to in america (good legal representation, like quality health care, seems to tbe the purview of the wealthy) second, i cant see from this what kind of judgements folk are able to draw about the suicide attempt itself--you have the outline of a fucked up series of events, but not much of anything about the surrounding circumstances. so i dont see what basis there is for trotting out general positions vis-a-vis suicide. what is a suicide in general? isnt suicide always a deeply particular act? is there a social obligation to prevent suicide? i would imagine that a prolife position, in order to be consistent, would be forced to argue that suicide is a priori bad and that every attempts should be made to prolong life, no matter what--but then you see anti-choice positions mixed with support for capital punishment, war, etc...so obviously consistency is not an issue. i do not have a real position on this--the particularity of the decision to commit suicide would seem to me to abstract it from the social domain. but should there be free access to psychological services in general? in a more civilized form of capitalism, this would not even be a question--of course there should be. these services would be indirectly geared toward suicide prevention--but would not in the final analysis do much of anything in to prevent individuals from choosing it as a way out. i am surprised to see so much in the way of "let em die, who gives a shit?" in this thread. i wonder where this comes from. over the years i have have acquaintances and one firend do themselves in--some quickly (guns) some slowly (rock). on the quck suicides, i was surprised, but did not really know the people...on the slow one, the one frm rock usage, i was closely involved....i let go only very slowly, conceded defeat with great pain and great reluctance. even after i had to let go, could do nothing more than watch how things wound down, there was no point at which i was able to simply say to myself anything like "this guy is fucked, let him die, who cares?" i loved the guy, it was horrible to be walked into this scenario, to have to watch the denouement without being able to do anything to stop it---social darwinimst arguments--there as here--seemed to me cheap and weak. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

01-28-2005, 09:06 AM	#36 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	roachboy, for me it is quite simple. I understand the implications of living within a socio-cultural matrix. However, it does seem significantly axiomatic to me to allow a human being to have ultimate responsibility for the decision to end his or her life. I think we can work that through the social matrix well enough for it to be a viable way to conduct ourselves. To my way of thinking, it is an important way to have a society set up. __________________ create evolution

01-28-2005, 09:23 AM	#37 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	art: actually, i did not intend to make a counter argument, i dont think--i was more expressing a kind of deep ambivalence about suicide as a topic for discussion in general, and through that a more focussed ambivalence about the social darwinist business. i dunno--it seems that it is possible for people to get knocked off the matrix, if you like, based on conjunctural matters--a particularly crappy turn of events--without that entailing judgements as to the whole of that person. it does not seem to me that there is any way to know or predict this. whence the ambivalence about the matter as one that can be discussed in general terms. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

01-28-2005, 09:31 AM	#38 (permalink)
thinktank Guest	1-The loss of human life is tragic. 2-You can only pass judgement on your own life, to do so for another is wrong (I dont think enough people understand this) "In the time of your life live so that in that good time there shall be no ugliness or death for yourself, or any life that your life touches. Seek goodness everywhere and when it is found, bring it out of the hiding place let it be free and unashamed." <edit> Sorry about your mom halx, i'm sure i speak not only for myself but for all of TFP when i wish her a fast recovery.

01-30-2005, 06:17 PM	#39 (permalink)
Xell101 Junkie	We're a free society, unless you're staggeringly fucked or really not right physiologically you ought reap what you sow, be it to your benefit or detriment. His dumb ass killed eleven people, injured many more, damaged a lot of property, and longs for that sweet, sweet release. At minimum he should be put in prison and given the option of swift, painless death.

01-30-2005, 06:22 PM	#40 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	wow, Glad your mom is ok. That's a horrible story and it is easy to want revenge, but I don't think killing this man is the answer. For one thing, it can't even be called "a deterent". It is revenge, plain and simple. And while I understand the urge (oh how I understand), I can't justify it. As to the "worthwhileness" of this man's life, that isn't mine to judge. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!